Maybe it would flow upstream at a rpedictable time and they choose this time to read it? Have they read the Gospel at different hours?
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buzuxi02
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There was a thread on the holy fire just a few weeks ago where this phenomenon was brought up. I posted up some grainy footage but with the background conversations of the Greek pilgrims witnessing the event, which is what I found fascinating. It's not the entire river that reverses stream. You can make out a demarcation where the portion of the stream continues as is and the point where the water reverses course. In other words you can decipher where the current begins to flow opposite of each other A mild shadowing of what may have occurred when the Red Sea was parted and all who passed through were baptised.
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different hours? no, but the Gospel has not been read to the exact minute every year. but even then, for the waters to physically change their flow and turn in front of people when the Gospel is read, only to turn back and flow downstream when it is done, I have yet to hear of any plausible purely natural reason for that.
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JeremiahsBulldog
Careful, he bites!
Those are beautiful miracles. But as the Lord said about unbelievers, even if someone rose from the dead they would not believe.
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JeremiahsBulldog
Careful, he bites!
Prodromos,
thanks for the kind message. My protocol droid decoded it (he speaks R2).
But seriously, I accidentally pressed "." and "enter" together, and didn't know how to correct it. I had forgotten about the edit button (d'oh!). I just "rediscovered" it. Now the problem is fixed.
thanks for the kind message. My protocol droid decoded it (he speaks R2).
But seriously, I accidentally pressed "." and "enter" together, and didn't know how to correct it. I had forgotten about the edit button (d'oh!). I just "rediscovered" it. Now the problem is fixed.
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~Anastasia~
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Prodromos,
thanks for the kind message. My protocol droid decoded it (he speaks R2).
But seriously, I accidentally pressed "." and "enter" together, and didn't know how to correct it. I had forgotten about the edit button (d'oh!). I just "rediscovered" it. Now the problem is fixed.
Just an FYI - we often see messages that are just
.
What that usually means is that someone posted, then thought better of it, changed their mind, posted in wrong thread, realized they misread something they replied to, accidentally duplicated a post, etc. We can't delete our posts so most of the time we resort to changing them to a dot.
Because it happens so often, you frequently see joking replies to them.
But we are never surprised to see a "." post.
And forgive me if you knew this.
(I did enjoy both prodromos' reply and yours to him. )
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JeremiahsBulldog
Careful, he bites!
1/4
St. John's explanation, and by extension mine, is not eisegesis (greek for " to add in meaning"). It is exegesis, (greek for "to extract the meaning"). The meaning is clear from the grammar, and from comparison with other passages.
First, lets look at some other passages. But before I begin, I must reiterate the plain truth that; nowhere in the Bible does it explicitly say that, what's not mentioned in the Bible is forbidden. That doctrine was made up by the Protestants through eisegesis. Anyway . . .
In the Old Testament,
God gave several sets of laws to those who followed Him.
From Adam to Abraham, the law was simple. Invisible worship (no images) and moral laws. All images used in worship were therefore used by those not following God, and were associated with false gods or demons. They were idols.
With Abraham, the law of circumcision was added.
With Moses, things get more complicated. Many new laws were added, most notably:
A. The distinction between clean and unclean animals, and
B. Worship in the Tabernacle, later the Temple, and in front of the Ark of the Covenant.
The Tabernacle, Temple, and Ark all contained images--icons--and were used to worship the True God. Now a distinction emerges between icons, which are sacred images, and idols, which are profane images.
In the New Testament,
some of the OT laws were formally abolished, such as the distinction between clean and unclean animals, and the older law of circumcision (Acts 15:20). This facilitated pagan conversions to chistianity (Acts 15:19).
But the still older prohibition against idols was upheld (again Acts 15:20).
Does this imply that the OT distinction between icons and idols was also abolished?
Your accusation of eisegesis, whether it refers to St. John or to me, is wrong.
St. John's explanation, and by extension mine, is not eisegesis (greek for " to add in meaning"). It is exegesis, (greek for "to extract the meaning"). The meaning is clear from the grammar, and from comparison with other passages.
First, lets look at some other passages. But before I begin, I must reiterate the plain truth that; nowhere in the Bible does it explicitly say that, what's not mentioned in the Bible is forbidden. That doctrine was made up by the Protestants through eisegesis. Anyway . . .
In the Old Testament,
God gave several sets of laws to those who followed Him.
From Adam to Abraham, the law was simple. Invisible worship (no images) and moral laws. All images used in worship were therefore used by those not following God, and were associated with false gods or demons. They were idols.
With Abraham, the law of circumcision was added.
With Moses, things get more complicated. Many new laws were added, most notably:
A. The distinction between clean and unclean animals, and
B. Worship in the Tabernacle, later the Temple, and in front of the Ark of the Covenant.
The Tabernacle, Temple, and Ark all contained images--icons--and were used to worship the True God. Now a distinction emerges between icons, which are sacred images, and idols, which are profane images.
In the New Testament,
some of the OT laws were formally abolished, such as the distinction between clean and unclean animals, and the older law of circumcision (Acts 15:20). This facilitated pagan conversions to chistianity (Acts 15:19).
But the still older prohibition against idols was upheld (again Acts 15:20).
Does this imply that the OT distinction between icons and idols was also abolished?
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JeremiahsBulldog
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2/4
First of all, nowhere in the NT is it explicitly stated that, now there is no distinction and all images are evil. What else is said about images in the NT?
Here we come once again to the passage about Christ's response to taxes (Mt 22:15 -22 ; Mk 12: 13 - 17; and Lu 20: 20 - 26.), which I quoted in my earlier post, #128.
Here, let's start by looking at Christ's answer. Christ could have answered a question about taxes by simply saying, "pay your taxes". Instead, He asks for a coin to be handed to Him. Then, what does He ask? Does He say, "who issued this coin . . . then give it back to him"? That would also have been a good direct response.
No, He answers by saying, "give back to Caesar what is Caesar's, and to God what is God's". What does the "what", which must be divided between Caesar and God, refer to? And remember, many Biblical passages have more than one meaning. Here too, there could be more than one meaning.
It could be a general distinction between sacred things (Bible, virtues, mysteries, etc.) and profane things (money, etc.). That's a good interpretation.
But then, Christ makes things complicated by mentioning images; "who's IMAGE is on this coin . . .". This implies that one should give Caesar's image back to Caesar, and God's image back to God. But what is God's image? First, it's Christ (2 Cor 4:4; Col 1:15). Does this mean we should give Christ back to God? Perhaps He is referring to His impending crucifixion. Also, Man is made in the image of God, that is, in Christ (Gen 1:27) . Does that mean we should give ourselves to God? Absolutely. We dedicate our lives to God.
Then Christ makes things even more complicated by mentioning inscriptions : "whose IMAGE . . . whose INSCRIPTION . . . ". Every word of Christ's quoted in the NT is significant. BTW, the greek word for image is "icon" and that's what's used here in the original version: "whose ICON is on this coin, and whose INSCRIPTION?". An inscription is basically a nametag. Did Christ carry a nametag everywhere? Do we? Clearly, Christ is refering to an artificial image with an inscription-- an icon. Thus, in this interpretaion (remember, multiple meanings) Christ is saying that; if it's an icon-plus-inscription of Caesar give it back to Caesar; if it's an icon-plus-inscription of God (that is, Christ or the saints, who are in Christ) give it back to God. That is , use it in Divine worship. This is not a forced interpretation of the passage. It's not eisegesis. Thus, the distinction between icons (sacred images) and idols (profane images) is implyed to be upheld.
First of all, nowhere in the NT is it explicitly stated that, now there is no distinction and all images are evil. What else is said about images in the NT?
Here we come once again to the passage about Christ's response to taxes (Mt 22:15 -22 ; Mk 12: 13 - 17; and Lu 20: 20 - 26.), which I quoted in my earlier post, #128.
Here, let's start by looking at Christ's answer. Christ could have answered a question about taxes by simply saying, "pay your taxes". Instead, He asks for a coin to be handed to Him. Then, what does He ask? Does He say, "who issued this coin . . . then give it back to him"? That would also have been a good direct response.
No, He answers by saying, "give back to Caesar what is Caesar's, and to God what is God's". What does the "what", which must be divided between Caesar and God, refer to? And remember, many Biblical passages have more than one meaning. Here too, there could be more than one meaning.
It could be a general distinction between sacred things (Bible, virtues, mysteries, etc.) and profane things (money, etc.). That's a good interpretation.
But then, Christ makes things complicated by mentioning images; "who's IMAGE is on this coin . . .". This implies that one should give Caesar's image back to Caesar, and God's image back to God. But what is God's image? First, it's Christ (2 Cor 4:4; Col 1:15). Does this mean we should give Christ back to God? Perhaps He is referring to His impending crucifixion. Also, Man is made in the image of God, that is, in Christ (Gen 1:27) . Does that mean we should give ourselves to God? Absolutely. We dedicate our lives to God.
Then Christ makes things even more complicated by mentioning inscriptions : "whose IMAGE . . . whose INSCRIPTION . . . ". Every word of Christ's quoted in the NT is significant. BTW, the greek word for image is "icon" and that's what's used here in the original version: "whose ICON is on this coin, and whose INSCRIPTION?". An inscription is basically a nametag. Did Christ carry a nametag everywhere? Do we? Clearly, Christ is refering to an artificial image with an inscription-- an icon. Thus, in this interpretaion (remember, multiple meanings) Christ is saying that; if it's an icon-plus-inscription of Caesar give it back to Caesar; if it's an icon-plus-inscription of God (that is, Christ or the saints, who are in Christ) give it back to God. That is , use it in Divine worship. This is not a forced interpretation of the passage. It's not eisegesis. Thus, the distinction between icons (sacred images) and idols (profane images) is implyed to be upheld.
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JeremiahsBulldog
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3/4
Now, you'll probably say that this was in Christ's time, that later the Temple was destroyed and there were no more sacred images. But much of the NT was written after the destruction of the Temple, and nowhere in it do the Apostles write that, now there are no sacred images, all images are evil, etc. Their almost silence indicates that the approval implied by Christ in the above passage still stands. I say, "almost", because Hebrews 9 actually continues to support the distinction between icons and idols. It also explains the theology behind icons. Our icons too, are meant to symbolize heavenly realities (saints in heaven, etc).
Since the early church we were making icons (images) with inscriptions indicating the person or event being shown (see Catacomb art here).
Now, you'll probably say that this was in Christ's time, that later the Temple was destroyed and there were no more sacred images. But much of the NT was written after the destruction of the Temple, and nowhere in it do the Apostles write that, now there are no sacred images, all images are evil, etc. Their almost silence indicates that the approval implied by Christ in the above passage still stands. I say, "almost", because Hebrews 9 actually continues to support the distinction between icons and idols. It also explains the theology behind icons. Our icons too, are meant to symbolize heavenly realities (saints in heaven, etc).
Since the early church we were making icons (images) with inscriptions indicating the person or event being shown (see Catacomb art here).
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JeremiahsBulldog
Careful, he bites!
4/4
As for praying in front of, crossing ourselves in front of, venerating and kissing icons.
Since the distinction between icons and idols stands, we follow the OT use of icons.
In Exodus 25, we read about the Ark of the Covenant, which had icons of cherubim (Exod 25:18), and the mercy seat in the middle (25:17), which was an "invisible icon" of the then invisible (because He hadn't become incarnate yet) God.
In the next chapter (Exodus 26), we read about the Tabernacle, which had icons of cherubim (Exod 26:1).
In chapter 33 (Exodus 33) we read that, after the Tabernacle was completed, and the Ark was placed inside it, and Moses-- clearly a holy man-- entered to talk with God, then the glory (grace) of god descended on it . Every time this happened, the Israelites worshiped, that is, bowed down and venerated (strong's definitions) it (Exodus 33:10).
In a similar way, we believe that when we make an icon-- an image of a holy man or woman done in the traditional way (in a certain style, and with inscription); God's glory--that is, grace-- is there too. When we pray in front of it or venerate it, God therefore receives our worship. That is what we mean when we say that the veneration of the icon is transferred to the prototype (God).
BTW, the Jews kept the distinction between icons and idols even in the Christian Era. In the second century, there was the synagogue at Dura-Europos, Syria, with it's icons (here).
In Orthodox Jewish synagogues, even today, the Torah is decorated with religious symbols, and it is venerated and kissed after the formal readings during services (here).
As for praying in front of, crossing ourselves in front of, venerating and kissing icons.
Since the distinction between icons and idols stands, we follow the OT use of icons.
In Exodus 25, we read about the Ark of the Covenant, which had icons of cherubim (Exod 25:18), and the mercy seat in the middle (25:17), which was an "invisible icon" of the then invisible (because He hadn't become incarnate yet) God.
In the next chapter (Exodus 26), we read about the Tabernacle, which had icons of cherubim (Exod 26:1).
In chapter 33 (Exodus 33) we read that, after the Tabernacle was completed, and the Ark was placed inside it, and Moses-- clearly a holy man-- entered to talk with God, then the glory (grace) of god descended on it . Every time this happened, the Israelites worshiped, that is, bowed down and venerated (strong's definitions) it (Exodus 33:10).
In a similar way, we believe that when we make an icon-- an image of a holy man or woman done in the traditional way (in a certain style, and with inscription); God's glory--that is, grace-- is there too. When we pray in front of it or venerate it, God therefore receives our worship. That is what we mean when we say that the veneration of the icon is transferred to the prototype (God).
BTW, the Jews kept the distinction between icons and idols even in the Christian Era. In the second century, there was the synagogue at Dura-Europos, Syria, with it's icons (here).
In Orthodox Jewish synagogues, even today, the Torah is decorated with religious symbols, and it is venerated and kissed after the formal readings during services (here).
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The scriptures that come closest to this issue in my view concern Naaman. He's mentioned in Luke and looking at his background in 2 Kings 5, he comes with having this issue: "for your servant will never again make burnt offerings and sacrifices to any other god but the Lord. But may the Lord forgive your servant for this one thing: When my master enters the temple of Rimmon to bow down and he is leaning on my arm and I have to bow there also—when I bow down in the temple of Rimmon, may the Lord forgive your servant for this."
It's close to the issue of bowing down before idols and it still has an understanding within the context that bowing down before an idol of Rimmon is wrong, however there is an element of forgiveness there when looking at the response. “Go in peace,” Elisha said.
Now put in the fact that Naaman is a gentile and it's possible that the judgments placed on gentiles at least require some more background. The way I see it when it concerns the will of God, there is some wiggle room for the individual. Looking at it as a group belief it's very long term behavior, but it certainly doesn't mean somewhere down the road of history this too will change.
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Abraham bows before people, and people bow before him. there is a difference between bowing as an act of worship, and simply bowing. it wasn't just a Gentile thing. and as for the quote you referenced, images are all over the Tabernacle and Temple, not to mention every early synagogue we have uncovered.
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If I offer an answer will you promise not to report me?
I've been reported for answering in this thread when asked questions and it's really, kinda...low and unchristian. It's like I'm being baited into answering just so I could be reported.
This forum has 'debate' in the title but the Eastern Orthodox seem to have an issue when challenged and report me to the mod's so I'm not sure I should answer if I'm only going to get a heavy handed, top down, authoritarian smack down lol.
That's wrong.
I've been reported for answering in this thread when asked questions and it's really, kinda...low and unchristian. It's like I'm being baited into answering just so I could be reported.
This forum has 'debate' in the title but the Eastern Orthodox seem to have an issue when challenged and report me to the mod's so I'm not sure I should answer if I'm only going to get a heavy handed, top down, authoritarian smack down lol.
That's wrong.
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That has yet to be proven.
Asserted but still not proven.
Why not deal with the passages I’ve already quoted? It’s just a bait and switch.
That’s just the Eastern Orthodox interpretation, a denominational interpretation…
From Exodus 20, “Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me…
We can see right off the bat that you are not to make graven images OR any likeness and bow to it if it represents anything in heaven.
You just admitted God revealed to Adam that no images were to be used in worship. Thanks.
Moses clearly explained the revelation that came before and proclaimed a covenant of works. He repeatedly states, “do and live” when this is not the covenant Christ offers to believers.
None of this applies. It’s a red herring.
You quoted things that do not apply to the subject of using images in worship so the question does not apply.
What does the Bible say?
1. Exodus 20:4-6 “You must not make for yourself an idol of any kind or an image of anything in the heavens or on the earth or in the sea. You must not bow down to them or worship them, for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God who will not tolerate your affection for any other gods. I lay the sins of the parents upon their children; the entire family is affected—even children in the third and fourth generations of those who reject me. But I lavish unfailing love for a thousand generations on those who love me and obey my commands.
2. Deuteronomy 4:23-24 Be careful not to forget the covenant of the LORD your God that he made with you; do not make for yourselves an idol in the form of anything the LORD your God has forbidden. For the LORD your God is a consuming fire, a jealous God.3. Exodus 34:14 Do not worship any other god, for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God.
4. Colossians 3:5 Therefore consider the members of your earthly body as dead to immorality, impurity, passion, evil desire, and greed, which amounts to idolatry.
5. Deuteronomy 4:16-18 so that you do not act corruptly and make a graven image for yourselves in the form of any figure, the likeness of male or female, the likeness of any animal that is on the earth, the likeness of any winged bird that flies in the sky, the likeness of anything that creeps on the ground, the likeness of any fish that is in the water below the earth.
6. Leviticus 26:1 “Do not make idols or set up carved images, or sacred pillars, or sculptured stones in your land so you may worship them. I am the LORD your God.
7. Psalm 97:7 All who worship images are put to shame, those who boast in idols– worship him, all you gods!
Worship God in spirit and in truth
8. John 4:23-24 Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in the Spirit and in truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in the Spirit and in truth.”
God shares his glory with no one
9. Isaiah 42:8 “I am the LORD; that is my name! I will not give my glory to anyone else, nor share my praise with carved idols.
10. Revelation 19:10 Then I fell down at his feet to worship him, but he said, “No, don’t worship me. I am a servant of God, just like you and your brothers and sisters who testify about their faith in Jesus. Worship only God. For the essence of prophecy is to give a clear witness for Jesus.”
Reminders
11. Isaiah 44:8-11 Do not tremble, do not be afraid. Did I not proclaim this and foretell it long ago? You are my witnesses. Is there any God besides me? No, there is no other Rock; I know not one.” All who make idols are nothing, and the things they treasure are worthless. Those who would speak up for them are blind; they are ignorant, to their own shame. Who shapes a god and casts an idol, which can profit nothing? People who do that will be put to shame; such craftsmen are only human beings. Let them all come together and take their stand; they will be brought down to terror and shame.
12. Habakkuk 2:18 “Of what value is an idol carved by a craftsman? Or an image that teaches lies? For the one who makes it trusts in his own creation; he makes idols that cannot speak.
13. Jeremiah 10:14-15 Every man is stupid and without knowledge; every goldsmith is put to shame by his idols, for his images are false, and there is no breath in them. They are worthless, a work of delusion; at the time of their punishment they shall perish.
14. Leviticus 19:4 Do not put your trust in idols or make metal images of gods for yourselves. I am the LORD your God.
God’s kingdom
15. Ephesians 5:5 For of this you can be sure: No immoral, impure or greedy person--such a person is an idolater–has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
16. 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.
End times
17. 1 Timothy 4:1 Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons,
18. 2 Timothy 4:3-4 For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions, and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander off into myths.
Bible examples
19. Judges 17:4 Yet he restored the money unto his mother; and his mother took two hundred shekels of silver, and gave them to the founder, who made thereof a graven image and a molten image: and they were in the house of Micah.
20. Nahum 1:14 And this is what the LORD says concerning the Assyrians in Nineveh: “You will have no more children to carry on your name. I will destroy all the idols in the temples of your gods. I am preparing a grave for you because you are despicable!”
21. Judges 18:30 And the children of Dan set up the graven image: and Jonathan, the son of Gershom, the son of Manasseh, he and his sons were priests to the tribe of Dan until the day of the captivity of the land.Here we come once again to the passage about Christ's response to taxes (Mt 22:15 -22 ; Mk 12: 13 - 17; and Lu 20: 20 - 26.), which I quoted in my earlier post, #128.
Here, let's start by looking at Christ's answer. Christ could have answered a question about taxes by simply saying, "pay your taxes". Instead, He asks for a coin to be handed to Him. Then, what does He ask? Does He say, "who issued this coin . . . then give it back to him"? That would also have been a good direct response. (quoted from 21 Important Bible Verses About Graven Images )
Pure eisegesis. Christ was not answering any question about icons, the use of images in worship, etc.
It’s another rabbit trail.
Very imaginative though.
How is this an argument for the use of icons? It’s not.
Let’s test this reasoning, Paul mentions baptism for the dead…the apostles no where mention that this is evil so therefore it must be ok? Give me a break. No member of the Eastern Orthodox denomination would argue this way.
Benny Hinn sells magic handkerchiefs…is that evidence that handkerchiefs are magic? Of course not. What the laity do may not prove to be proper doctrine.
The decision to use icons was political and not religious. I've already explained that.
This has already been dealt with.
God plainly tells men not to worship images.
God plainly tells men how to approve Him.
God never tells men to paint icons and burn incense in front of them.
Chapter and verse if I’m lying…
It's not a similar way at all. I’ve clearly explained that Protestants seek to follow that which is revealed and not what can be surmised from the many traditions using conciliarism.
Thanks for participating but you won’t be getting a ribbon this time.
jm
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probably for how you debate, not that you are debating.
and God does command images to be made in the Tabernacle, and the Temple, and those images did have incense burned before them. especially since the altar of incense was burnt before the veil, which had images of the cherubim on it.
and you have not proven that icons are political.
and you still have not taken into account the difference between doula and latria.
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mothcorrupteth
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So you're a Klinean... who calls himself "Puritan."
He posted relevant things. It's just that you didn't catch his reference, probably because you don't hang around Orthodox.
It's not eisegesis. It's just not a tight case in the Greek. ἡ εἰκὼν (icon or image) and ἡ ἐπιγραφή (superscription) are clearly feminine, whereas Jesus uses the neuter plural τὰ Καίσαρος (the things of Caesar) and τὰ τοῦ θεοῦ (the things of God). If he had been making a specific point about the icon, he would have used the feminine τήν (to refer to the icon specifically) or at bare minimum τάς (to refer to both the icon and the writing).
I stopped here. I mean, no I didn't. I actually kept reading. But if I were a full Orthodox who'd been raised from the cradle and had no inside knowledge of--tell me if I'm a winner here--the URC, I would have stopped here. Because you just called them a denomination without any trace of irony.
(Actually, he just used the same line of logic applied in the case for exclusive psalmody. And I'm gonna be generous and assume that that point has some weight with you, because you are a "Puritan.")
This. Just this is the clearest argument I can make against you. At the end of ALL that, 50% of what you wrote yourself and didn't copy from Bible Gateway is taunts and "nuh uh!"s. Not all Calvinists argue like this, but you just fell into every stereotype they have about you. Stereotypes that quite frankly have come to resonate with me the more that I steep myself in Orthodox thinking. Argue the point, and stop trying to play mind games to psyche them out.
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So you're a Klinean... who calls himself "Puritan."
He posted relevant things. It's just that you didn't catch his reference, probably because you don't hang around Orthodox.
The first one of your "nuh uh!"s
I'm actually capable of recognizing the differences between covenants instead of blind adherence to the Westminster formula. As you know, or will pretend to knowing, Republication was held by many Puritan and Reformed Christians. You're "nuh uh!" comes in the form of claiming my point is invalid because you believe me to be Klinean.
And just so we are playing on a level playing field I'll toss in a meme.
The second "nuh uh!"s seems fancy but misses the point.
Scripture declares "no image or likeness..."
"And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness..." Both "image" and "likeness" are used in parallel. The same can be stated for the commandment, it's a parallelism and makes no distinction between image and likeness, both are considered idols.
Not really a "nuh uh!" more like, "oh no he didn't..." lol
Let me guess...you're Barthian maybe neo (Protestant) orthodox? Riiiight.
A source to check out.
"The Eastern Orthodox church began in 1054 with the dissolution of the “catholic” church by the actions of the bishop of Rome. Eastern Orthodoxy is a denomination highly fractured by nationalism, prevalent in the Balkan peninsula of Europe, Russia, and also having small numbers in the Near East. Although very similar to Roman Catholicism, Eastern Orthodoxy has grown apart from the other portion of the “catholic” church, having faced severe persecution from both Muslims and Communists since the fourteenth century. The belief system of the Eastern Orthodox can be summed up in the decisions of the Seven Ecumenical Councils that were called in the first millennium CE." Source
So, why do I refer to the Eastern Orthodox Church as a denomination and former State Church?
When I refer to the Eastern Orthodox denomination as such I honestly mean no disrespect. I am trying to deal honestly with history as I have come to understand it and help others to understand the development of the denomination over time. One simply has to look at the Russian or Greek Orthodox Churches to find evidence of this. Both Eastern Orthodox Church bodies were tied to the secular State and influenced by the State.
Unfortunately, faith in a Church hierarchy can create blinders to the truth and many Orthodox Christians fail to see what seems obvious to others. In Philip Jenkins book on the First World War titled The Great and Holy War he explains;
“The Orthodox church operated in intimate alliance with the imperial authorities, from which it drew its power and wealth. From the time of Peter the Great, in the 1700’s, the church’s ancient patriarchate ceased to function, leaving the church as a virtual arm of the government. It was supervised by a Holy Synod appointed by the Tsar and under the authority of a cabinet-level imperial official.”
“For many Orthodox thinkers, moreover, rival Christian churches, Catholic and Protestant, were only in the most technical sense fellow believers or brothers, and as such they deserved little more political consideration than did Muslims or Jews.”
“The causes of the monarchy, empire, and church were all one, and they merged into a messianic vision of the Tsarists regime…”
Many examples can be found throughout history where the Eastern Orthodox Church worked hand in hand with the State to accomplish the States goals. The EO functioned as a denominational body that suppressed other church bodies and opinions even when they were expressed in a councillor manner. I have already detailed that in my op. The State continuously waged a war for the use of Icons until the Church relented and this happened only after murdering their opponents and replacing the Patriarch with a layman.
Even today Russian President Vladimir Putin is using the Eastern Orthodox Church to rally neo-nationalism while the Orthodox Church receives benefits from the government. After much reading on the matter, using secular and Christian sources, I have to concluded that Eastern Orthodoxy is a former State Church that carries a lot of historical baggage linked with Byzantine and other political intrigue. This often affected doctrine and relations even if the outward ritual and ceremony remained the same. If Putin has his way the Eastern Orthodox might become a State Church once again.
No less stereotypical than the claims you've posted about me brother Calvinist. Trying to tag me with a label so you can say, 'gotcha! you dirty rotten Protestant.' Give me a break. The liberal self loathing is unbecoming. I can't apologize for posting scripture.
As a Christian who spent 2 years among the Greek Orthodox, attending services, even meeting the Bishop when he visited, I can tell you it's not all that it's cracked up to be. Especially when I was told that I should drive over an hour and half to another church because I wasn't Greek.
jayEhm
PS: I was told my Calvinism was cool with them, as long as I entered the church, it wasn't an issue.
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It doesn't do much good to post "sources" as an authority on Orthodoxy that clearly misunderstand a number of points. A few of the nuances that are true are actually brought out, but that one misses on so many counts as to be not helpful.
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