Before Jesus came to the world how were people saved?

Albion said:

Nothing in scripture teaches that they will be saved. It could be that God has something in mind for them, but we cannot assert that he does or what that might be, no matter what rationalization we use.

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The Holy Spirit speaks directly to every soul in the world and exposed them to God's law, as found written in the Law and spoken by the Prophets:

So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.
Matthew 7:12

Above all, love each other deeply, because love covers over a multitude of sins.
1 Peter 4:8

The second is this: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no commandment greater than these.
Mark 12:31
Finally, all of you, be like-minded, be sympathetic, love one another, be compassionate and humble.
1 Peter 3:8
No one should seek their own good, but the good of others.
1 Corinthians 10:24
Carry each other’s burdens, and in this way you will fulfill the law of Christ.
Galatians 6:2
Therefore encourage one another and build each other up, just as in fact you are doing.
1 Thessalonians 5:11

For the entire law is fulfilled in keeping this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.”
Galatians

Do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain conceit. Rather, in humility value others above yourselves.
Philippians 2:3

Keep on loving one another as brothers and sisters. Do not forget to show hospitality to strangers, for by so doing some people have shown hospitality to angels without knowing it.
Hebrews 13:1-2

Each of us should please our neighbors for their good, to build them up.
Romans 15:2

Therefore let us stop passing judgment on one another. Instead, make up your mind not to put any stumbling block or obstacle in the way of a brother or sister.
Romans 14:13

Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all people, especially to those who belong to the family of believers.
Galatians 6:10

Bear with each other and forgive one another if any of you has a grievance against someone. Forgive as the Lord forgave you.
Colossians 3:13

Learn to do right; seek justice.
Defend the oppressed.
Take up the cause of the fatherless;
plead the case of the widow.
Isaiah 1:17

You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge another, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things.
Romans 2:1

Love does no harm to a neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.
Romans 13:10

A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another.
John 13:34

How?

By believing the Word of God, which THEY revealed Their Belief BY Obedience TO The Law.

God Bless
Merry Christmas
SBC

Camper, I appreciate the comments, but "soul sleep" is something I cannot affirm, since there is too much in Scripture that points to the other POV. It doesn't offend me, particularly, but I cannot buy into it.

While I am reluctant to go along with those who say it's a mark of a cult (for redefining the nature of Man, created in the image and likeness of God), I would say that if there's something carried over from the Hebrews that ought not to have been, this (soul sleep) would qualify.

SkyWriting said:

The Holy Spirit speaks directly to every soul in the world and exposed them to God's law, as found written in the Law and spoken by the Prophets:

So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.
Matthew 7:12

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Naaa. All you're saying there is that there is an urge to be loving that all people can recognize.

Original Happy Camper said:

It was in Eden that Adam and Eve were promised a Saviour:

And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and her Seed; He shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise His heel (Genesis 3:15).

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I love this illustration depicting this (notice their feet--Mary's especially):



6 Things To Notice In This Beautiful Image of Mary and Eve

Original Happy Camper said:

But as the parable unfolds, Jesus turns the viewpoint of the Jewish leaders on its head by placing the rich man in "hell" and the poor man in "Abraham's bosom."

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Right.....the message wasn't so much about afterlife as it was a message of humility. "The rich man" was stripped of his dignity and not even named in the parable....Lazarus was dignified with a name.

-------->The parable also serves as a reminder of how seriously God takes the failure to help the poor. The fact that Lazarus was hungry for crumbs, would mean the rich man was failing to fulfill his duty to help the poor in the land (Deuteronomy 15:11), In Proverbs we read "Whoever shuts his ears at the cry of the poor, he also shall cry himself, but shall not be heard." (Proverbs 21:13). Jesus also said that "Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy." (Matthew 5:7).

The Psalmist speaking in condemnation of the wicked says "Let his children be continually vagabonds, and beg" (Psalm 109:10). This kind of Scripture could have been used to justify not helping beggars. In the same way some Jews also wrongly taught that sickness was a result of sin.

It is the nature of pride to despise the weak, leading to the weak being dehumanized as less worthy of life. It is likely the Pharisees saw people like Lazarus the beggar as equal with dogs. If somebody views another person equal to a dog, then they will treat them like a dog.

A parable that parallels the theme of helping the afflicted is the story of the good Samaritan. A man had been robbed and beaten badly, while lying on the ground, he was ignored by some religious Jews that passed by, but then a generous hearted Samaritan helped him.

It was the Jewish leaders who were the ones who should have been examples of living God's way. Instead the story lifts up a Samaritan as the hero, whom the Jews despised. Jesus was making clear that it was those that were merciful that pleased God regardless of how others viewed them.

The Lazarus parable also reminds us of how earthly riches fit into the bigger scheme of things, Jesus had earlier taught "For what is a man advantaged, if he gain the whole world, and lose himself, or be cast away?" (Luke 9:25).

The rich man of the parable can be seen as an example of those who are under the mastership of mammon. He enjoyed being lavished with the luxuries of fine food and clothing, while turning a blind eye to the needs of the poor. Some chapters earlier Jesus had taught saying: "Sell what you have and give alms. Make for yourselves purses which do not become old, an unfailing treasure in Heaven, where no thief comes nor moth corrupts." (Luke 12:33)~The Rich Man and Lazarus Parable - What does it teach?

mmbattlestar said:

From Adam and Eve's time till Christ was ministering how were people saved? Not to many people debate for instance Adam and Eve's salvation. Or Abraham or King Saul, or King David. But just how were they saved when Jesus hadn't died on the cross yet? When Jesus was ministering people how were they saved? By believing that he was the Messiah? Were people saved before Jesus was born by believing in the messiah? Was it their works? Their sacrifices to God? Believing in the one true God? Keeping the ten commandments and the law? Just how were Jews saved before they rejected their Messiah? I'm confused.

Click to expand...

All Blessings Which Shall Flow to All in God's Grand Plan of the Ages!

"But truly as I live, all the earth shall be filled with the glory of the Lord." Numbers 14:21
God shall wipe away all tears from off all faces.
Isaiah 25:8; Revelation 7:17
All wars shall cease.
Isaiah 2:4; Micah 4:3
All evil shall be suppressed.
Psalm 37:10; Revelation 20:2,3
God's judgments shall teach righteousness to all.
Isaiah 26:9; 28:17
Nothing shall ever hurt nor destroy.
Isaiah 11:9
Truth shall triumph in the earth.
Psalm 85:11
God shall write His Law in the hearts of men.
Jeremiah 31:33
All shall know Him from the least to the greatest.
Jeremiah 31:34
Earth shall be filled with the knowledge of God.
Habakuk 2:14
God shall pour out His spirit upon all flesh.
Joel 2:28; Acts 2:17
All iniquity shall be remembered no more.
Isaiah 55:7
All shall rejoice as sorrow and sighing flee away.
Isaiah 35:10
There shall be no more death, sorrow or pain.
Revelation 21:4,5
There shall be no more sickness.
Isaiah 33:24
The eyes of the blind shall be opened and the ears of the deaf shall be unstopped.
Isaiah 35:5
The earth shall yield her increase.
Psalm 67:6
The desert shall blossom as the rose.
Isaiah 35:1
The ransomed of the Lord shall return from death.
Isaiah 35:10
One shall not build and another inhabit, nor plant and another take, nor shall any labor in vain.
Isaiah 65:22,23
Every man shall sit under his own vine and fig tree.
Micah 4:4
God shall multiply the fruitage of the earth.
Psalm 67:6; 85:12
There shall be showers of blessing.
Ezekiel 34:26
The earth shall become like a Garden of Eden.
Isaiah 51:3
Blessings Which Shall Flow to All in God's Grand Plan of the Ages
"But truly as I live, all the earth shall be filled with the glory of the Lord." Numbers 14:21
God shall wipe away all tears from off all faces.
Isaiah 25:8; Revelation 7:17
All wars shall cease.
Isaiah 2:4; Micah 4:3
All evil shall be suppressed.
Psalm 37:10; Revelation 20:2,3
God's judgments shall teach righteousness to all.
Isaiah 26:9; 28:17
Nothing shall ever hurt nor destroy.
Isaiah 11:9
Truth shall triumph in the earth.
Psalm 85:11
God shall write His Law in the hearts of men.
Jeremiah 31:33
All shall know Him from the least to the greatest.
Jeremiah 31:34
Earth shall be filled with the knowledge of God.
Habakuk 2:14
God shall pour out His spirit upon all flesh.
Joel 2:28; Acts 2:17
All iniquity shall be remembered no more.
Isaiah 55:7
All shall rejoice as sorrow and sighing flee away.
Isaiah 35:10
There shall be no more death, sorrow or pain.
Revelation 21:4,5
There shall be no more sickness.
Isaiah 33:24
The eyes of the blind shall be opened and the ears of the deaf shall be unstopped.
Isaiah 35:5
The earth shall yield her increase.
Psalm 67:6
The desert shall blossom as the rose.
Isaiah 35:1
The ransomed of the Lord shall return from death.
Isaiah 35:10
One shall not build and another inhabit, nor plant and another take, nor shall any labor in vain.
Isaiah 65:22,23
Every man shall sit under his own vine and fig tree.
Micah 4:4
God shall multiply the fruitage of the earth.
Psalm 67:6; 85:12
There shall be showers of blessing.
Ezekiel 34:26
The earth shall become like a Garden of Eden.
Isaiah 51:3


Good News!

Message: JOHN 3:16

LIFE
WHY?
Through the first human couple, in the Garden of Eden, Adam and Eve, the sentence of death passed upon the entire human race.
>Genesis 2:7 “and man became a living soul/being.”
>Ezekiel 18:4 the word of God states: “the soul that sinneth it shall die.”

Adam and Eve were told by God where they would go;
> Genesis 3:19 “till thou return unto the ground; for out of it thou wast taken; for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.”

> Romans 5:19 “For as by one mans disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.”

HOW?
> John 3:16 “God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son.”
>1 Cor. 15:22-23 “As in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.”
Furthermore in 1 Tim. 2:4-6 it is explained; ”Who will have all men to be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself a ransom for all, in due time.”
A perfect human life for another perfect human life (a corresponding price) The first life defective and it’s posterity; the “last Adam, a quickening spirit.” The risen Lord Jesus who was “holy, harmless, undefiled and separate from sinners.” “The Word” or “Logos” who was made flesh, and in love and obedience to God his Father “poured out his soul unto death.” Isaiah 53:12 Jesus stated in John 6:51 “and the bread I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.” The ransom-price, the right to life, to be applied in due time.

1 John 2:2 “And he is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but for the whole world.”

The offer of justification to life as in Romans 5:18 “so by the righteousness of one, upon all men unto justification of life.” on the terms of Romans 10:10 “…believeth unto righteousness.” “…confession unto salvation.” If there is a first resurrection, then there is more than one implied also.
> 1 Cor. 15:38 “…a body as it hath pleased Him.”
>1 Cor. 15:40 “the glory of the celestial is one, the glory of the terrestrial is another.”

WHEN?
Acts 24:15 (“Just and Unjust”)
In Hebrews 11:3 the statement is made that “the worlds (ages) were framed by the word of God.” All human history is shaped by the justice, love, wisdom and power of God; in permitting evil for
THY KINGDOM COME
mans education, and the gift of his son for our redemption!
> Acts 17:31 “he hath appointed a day, in that which
he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained.”
> Daniel 12:2 “Many that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake.” (unconscious aspect of death)
>2 Peter 3:8 “one day with the Lord as a thousand years.”
The “Judgment Day” = is the “Kingdom.”
Jesus stated in John 5:28-29 “All that are in the graves shall hear his voice” “they that have done good, unto a resurrection of life; and they that have done evil unto a resurrection of judgment.” (original meaning in early Greek MSS) NOTE: the location of the dead is clearly stated to be the same before their disposition upon resurrection!
JESUS also include in this resurrection;
>Matt. 12:41-42 “the men of Nineveh shall rise in judgment.” >Matt. 10:15 “more tolerable for the land of Sodom, and Gomorrah.” (Literally)
> Matt. 19:28 “the 12 tribes of Israel.”
Jeremiah 31:16 “from the land of the enemy.”
These all having died in total or relative ignorance, and inherited weakness, prior to the millennial day of judgment!

>Jesus stated again in John 12: 47-48 “if any man hear my words and believe not, I judge him not-the word I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.” >>A resurrection by judgments during the “times of restitution” Acts 3:21. When the true “way of holiness” Isaiah 35:8 will be prepared for mankind! Isaiah 11:9 “shall not hurt or destroy.” Isaiah 26:9 “when thy judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants will learn righteousness.” With Satan bound a 1,000 years!
1 Cor. 15:23 “every man in his own order.”

THE CALL OF OUR PRESENT AGE! John 6:44,65
Acts 15:14-18 “God did at the first visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.”>> A spiritual church for his Son; the Christ. (the Spirit and the Bride)
Rev. 22:17. Jesus said: “Deny self and follow me” Matt. 16:24 “ sanctify them through thy truth” >>John 17:17 “ be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life” Rev 2:10. The completion of this “first resurrection” ends this age! THEN-Rev. 21:2 “new Jerusalem coming down out of heaven” >>Acts 7:48 “God dwelleth not in temples made with hands.” Then the “millennial” reign of Christ actually begins!
Psalm 102:18 “the people that shall be created"!!!

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<°°°>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Message: Good News!

Do not leave the earth out of the picture!>>> Yes,Isaiah 24:5 is the present condition!."the earth is polluted under the inhabitants"//, but this will change as the general resurrection unfolds! >>>For example,in Ezekiel 36:10-11 God states" i will multiply men upon you,all the house of Israel,ALL of it ! "++-vs.11"and will do better, than at your beginnings: and you shall know that I am the Lord!". (Multiplied by the resurrection promised to them in Ezekiel 37+Isaiah 42+49:6-9"say to the prisoners,go forth;"!>>> .see Ezekiel 36:31"then shall you remember your own evil ways"etc.That generation!/those people will remember because they have been made alive again under the new covenant made with Israel!(Jeremiah 31-all..)remember the words of Moses.>>>Deut.30:2-8"return and obey"// Of course everyone gets another opportunity! That is what the prophets spoke of! The nations shall benefit in order; >>>Zech.8:23"the nations".>>>Zech.12:7-13"the tents of Judah first"!>>> Deuteronomy 18:18"a prophet from among their brethren" (Jesus Christ was a Jew..) Wait for it ! >>>(John 5:28-29)..

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<°°°>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Message: A KINGDOM IS ….

future

Psalm72***"Give the king thy judgements,O God,and thy righteousness unto the king's son. He shall judge thy people with righteousness,and thy poor with judgement."./>>vs.4-He shall judge the poor of the people,he shall save the children of the needy--/>>>vs.13-He shall spare the poor and needy,and shall save the souls of the needy.!"//>>As the first advent was a precursor to the return of Jesus Christ;---i.e.the miracles of healing,sustenance,and resurrection enacted by the power of God,--so also at his return! />>see Ephesians 1:10, for example,on a global scale!>> 1Tim.2:4"God will have ALL men to be saved,and to come to a knowledge of the truth"->>>-Deuteronomy32:4"the Rock,his work perfect"! >>>John 5:28-29"all those in the tombs will hear his voice"(his son's-Jesus Christ),;>>a visible resurrection to a new life and opportunity ,as the earth is healed by God !!!

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<°>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

>> MESSIAH >> ( WAS/IS) >> A JEW..
( a Hebrew )
♦The only one of the descendants of Abraham who could fulfill, and will fulfill , the old testament prophecies spoken of concerning the Messiah !
Genesis 22:8 ("God will provide himself a lamb"), as stated by Abraham..
Exodus 12:6 ("the congregation of Israel shall kill it in the
( evening"), (the lamb of the Passover).
Leviticus 16:6 ("Aaron shall offer his bullock of the sin-offering").
( type of Jesus ).
Leviticus(l6:15("the goat of the sin-offering for the people")
( type of the church ).
Numbers 28:3 ("two lambs")>>("day by day")—>>("a continual burnt-
("offering") (effective forever!").
Deuteronomy 18:15 Moses stated ("the Lord thy God will rise up
*** Unto thee a prophet from the midst of thee…”)
An atonement price, for all time , and effective for those long-dead, would have to be better than that of lambs ,goats, and cattle! >>>Please note ; the tabernacle picture in Leviticus 16 is ongoing , through-out human history until the present time; this culminates ,and merges into the temple picture narrated by Solomon ! ***Then Messiah’s king dom actually begins !
***Daniel 9:26 >> ("shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself!").Note the satisfaction for sins completed in this scripture!
Isaiah 11:1 >> ("a rod out of the stem of Jesse")
Isaiah 42: all >> ("give thee for a covenant of the people").
***Isaiah 53:7 >> ("he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter")
Isaiah 53:8 >> ("for the transgression of my people")...
Micah 5;2 >> (" shall he come forth unto me to be ruler in Israel")! ">>> 4:8 (" 0 tower of the flock")

A spiritual king, to restore and accomplish the fulflllment of the promises made to Israel by God, his Father !!!
Genesis 15:15 >> ("for all the land which thou seest, to thee will I give it and to thy seed forever!"). This promise will be realized soon!

Then Israel’s "judges" will be restored “ as at the first “ (Isaiah 1:26) (Abraham , Isaac, Jacob, David, with many others! >>> See Ezekiel 36:11( “do better unto you than at your beginnings”), >>(to answer Moses’ prayer, in Psalms 90,) >>>*Ezek.36:26(“new heart”),>> Ezek.36:31(“then shall ye remember your own evil ways”), That generation! Literally! They will be resurrected to earth,>> in the fulfillment of Ezekiel 37 (“the whole house of Israel”)>>> the “6 million+ lost in the Holocaust generation also!! >>> This is echoed in many of the Prophets’ statements ;>> * Jeremiah 31:1 (“at the same time”),>>*Jeremiah 31:27 (“I will sow the house of Israel and the house of Judah with the seed of man, and the seed of beast.”) Jeremiah will get his land !* .( Jer.32:11),>( *Isaiah 29:23 (“when he (Abraham) seeth his children, the work of my hands, in the midst of him”)!>>>*Isaiah 33:24 (“the inhabitant shall not say I am sick: the people that dwell therein shall be forgiven their iniquity!”)
The population of earth is blessed in order !>> >*Zechariah 8:22 (“ all languages of the nations”),>> to a fair trial for eternal life, under wonderful conditions!> See* Isaiah 35:all! >>>*Isaiah 65:20(“ as a child a sinner shall die an hundred years old”), the minimum age,( when decided), on the way to eternal life..You will be there! >>See *Isaiah 51:3(“wilderness like Eden”), 51:6(“my salvation shall be forever”),>>and* Isaiah 25:7(“destroy in this mountain the face of the covering cast over all people”)..vs.8 (“He will swallow up death in victory”)!
These scriptures all apply to natural Israel , as well as the spiritual nation..>>>*Psalms 104:30-31(“Thou sendest forth thy spirit,they are created,and thou renewest the face of the earth”..(“the glory of the Lord shall endure forever: the Lord shall rejoice in his works!")

mkgal1 said:

Right.....the message wasn't so much about afterlife as it was a message of humility. "The rich man" was stripped of his dignity and not even named in the parable....Lazarus was dignified with a name.

-------->The parable also serves as a reminder of how seriously God takes the failure to help the poor. The fact that Lazarus was hungry for crumbs, would mean the rich man was failing to fulfill his duty to help the poor in the land (Deuteronomy 15:11), In Proverbs we read "Whoever shuts his ears at the cry of the poor, he also shall cry himself, but shall not be heard." (Proverbs 21:13). Jesus also said that "Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy." (Matthew 5:7).

The Psalmist speaking in condemnation of the wicked says "Let his children be continually vagabonds, and beg" (Psalm 109:10). This kind of Scripture could have been used to justify not helping beggars. In the same way some Jews also wrongly taught that sickness was a result of sin.

It is the nature of pride to despise the weak, leading to the weak being dehumanized as less worthy of life. It is likely the Pharisees saw people like Lazarus the beggar as equal with dogs. If somebody views another person equal to a dog, then they will treat them like a dog.

A parable that parallels the theme of helping the afflicted is the story of the good Samaritan. A man had been robbed and beaten badly, while lying on the ground, he was ignored by some religious Jews that passed by, but then a generous hearted Samaritan helped him.

It was the Jewish leaders who were the ones who should have been examples of living God's way. Instead the story lifts up a Samaritan as the hero, whom the Jews despised. Jesus was making clear that it was those that were merciful that pleased God regardless of how others viewed them.

The Lazarus parable also reminds us of how earthly riches fit into the bigger scheme of things, Jesus had earlier taught "For what is a man advantaged, if he gain the whole world, and lose himself, or be cast away?" (Luke 9:25).

The rich man of the parable can be seen as an example of those who are under the mastership of mammon. He enjoyed being lavished with the luxuries of fine food and clothing, while turning a blind eye to the needs of the poor. Some chapters earlier Jesus had taught saying: "Sell what you have and give alms. Make for yourselves purses which do not become old, an unfailing treasure in Heaven, where no thief comes nor moth corrupts." (Luke 12:33)~The Rich Man and Lazarus Parable - What does it teach?

Click to expand...

All Blessings Which Shall Flow to All in God's Grand Plan of the Ages!

"But truly as I live, all the earth shall be filled with the glory of the Lord." Numbers 14:21
God shall wipe away all tears from off all faces.
Isaiah 25:8; Revelation 7:17
All wars shall cease.
Isaiah 2:4; Micah 4:3
All evil shall be suppressed.
Psalm 37:10; Revelation 20:2,3
God's judgments shall teach righteousness to all.
Isaiah 26:9; 28:17
Nothing shall ever hurt nor destroy.
Isaiah 11:9
Truth shall triumph in the earth.
Psalm 85:11
God shall write His Law in the hearts of men.
Jeremiah 31:33
All shall know Him from the least to the greatest.
Jeremiah 31:34
Earth shall be filled with the knowledge of God.
Habakuk 2:14
God shall pour out His spirit upon all flesh.
Joel 2:28; Acts 2:17
All iniquity shall be remembered no more.
Isaiah 55:7
All shall rejoice as sorrow and sighing flee away.
Isaiah 35:10
There shall be no more death, sorrow or pain.
Revelation 21:4,5
There shall be no more sickness.
Isaiah 33:24
The eyes of the blind shall be opened and the ears of the deaf shall be unstopped.
Isaiah 35:5
The earth shall yield her increase.
Psalm 67:6
The desert shall blossom as the rose.
Isaiah 35:1
The ransomed of the Lord shall return from death.
Isaiah 35:10
One shall not build and another inhabit, nor plant and another take, nor shall any labor in vain.
Isaiah 65:22,23
Every man shall sit under his own vine and fig tree.
Micah 4:4
God shall multiply the fruitage of the earth.
Psalm 67:6; 85:12
There shall be showers of blessing.
Ezekiel 34:26
The earth shall become like a Garden of Eden.
Isaiah 51:3
Blessings Which Shall Flow to All in God's Grand Plan of the Ages
"But truly as I live, all the earth shall be filled with the glory of the Lord." Numbers 14:21
God shall wipe away all tears from off all faces.
Isaiah 25:8; Revelation 7:17
All wars shall cease.
Isaiah 2:4; Micah 4:3
All evil shall be suppressed.
Psalm 37:10; Revelation 20:2,3
God's judgments shall teach righteousness to all.
Isaiah 26:9; 28:17
Nothing shall ever hurt nor destroy.
Isaiah 11:9
Truth shall triumph in the earth.
Psalm 85:11
God shall write His Law in the hearts of men.
Jeremiah 31:33
All shall know Him from the least to the greatest.
Jeremiah 31:34
Earth shall be filled with the knowledge of God.
Habakuk 2:14
God shall pour out His spirit upon all flesh.
Joel 2:28; Acts 2:17
All iniquity shall be remembered no more.
Isaiah 55:7
All shall rejoice as sorrow and sighing flee away.
Isaiah 35:10
There shall be no more death, sorrow or pain.
Revelation 21:4,5
There shall be no more sickness.
Isaiah 33:24
The eyes of the blind shall be opened and the ears of the deaf shall be unstopped.
Isaiah 35:5
The earth shall yield her increase.
Psalm 67:6
The desert shall blossom as the rose.
Isaiah 35:1
The ransomed of the Lord shall return from death.
Isaiah 35:10
One shall not build and another inhabit, nor plant and another take, nor shall any labor in vain.
Isaiah 65:22,23
Every man shall sit under his own vine and fig tree.
Micah 4:4
God shall multiply the fruitage of the earth.
Psalm 67:6; 85:12
There shall be showers of blessing.
Ezekiel 34:26
The earth shall become like a Garden of Eden.
Isaiah 51:3


Good News!

Message: JOHN 3:16

LIFE
WHY?
Through the first human couple, in the Garden of Eden, Adam and Eve, the sentence of death passed upon the entire human race.
>Genesis 2:7 “and man became a living soul/being.”
>Ezekiel 18:4 the word of God states: “the soul that sinneth it shall die.”

Adam and Eve were told by God where they would go;
> Genesis 3:19 “till thou return unto the ground; for out of it thou wast taken; for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.”

> Romans 5:19 “For as by one mans disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.”

HOW?
> John 3:16 “God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son.”
>1 Cor. 15:22-23 “As in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.”
Furthermore in 1 Tim. 2:4-6 it is explained; ”Who will have all men to be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself a ransom for all, in due time.”
A perfect human life for another perfect human life (a corresponding price) The first life defective and it’s posterity; the “last Adam, a quickening spirit.” The risen Lord Jesus who was “holy, harmless, undefiled and separate from sinners.” “The Word” or “Logos” who was made flesh, and in love and obedience to God his Father “poured out his soul unto death.” Isaiah 53:12 Jesus stated in John 6:51 “and the bread I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.” The ransom-price, the right to life, to be applied in due time.

1 John 2:2 “And he is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but for the whole world.”

The offer of justification to life as in Romans 5:18 “so by the righteousness of one, upon all men unto justification of life.” on the terms of Romans 10:10 “…believeth unto righteousness.” “…confession unto salvation.” If there is a first resurrection, then there is more than one implied also.
> 1 Cor. 15:38 “…a body as it hath pleased Him.”
>1 Cor. 15:40 “the glory of the celestial is one, the glory of the terrestrial is another.”

WHEN?
Acts 24:15 (“Just and Unjust”)
In Hebrews 11:3 the statement is made that “the worlds (ages) were framed by the word of God.” All human history is shaped by the justice, love, wisdom and power of God; in permitting evil for
THY KINGDOM COME
mans education, and the gift of his son for our redemption!
> Acts 17:31 “he hath appointed a day, in that which
he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained.”
> Daniel 12:2 “Many that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake.” (unconscious aspect of death)
>2 Peter 3:8 “one day with the Lord as a thousand years.”
The “Judgment Day” = is the “Kingdom.”
Jesus stated in John 5:28-29 “All that are in the graves shall hear his voice” “they that have done good, unto a resurrection of life; and they that have done evil unto a resurrection of judgment.” (original meaning in early Greek MSS) NOTE: the location of the dead is clearly stated to be the same before their disposition upon resurrection!
JESUS also include in this resurrection;
>Matt. 12:41-42 “the men of Nineveh shall rise in judgment.” >Matt. 10:15 “more tolerable for the land of Sodom, and Gomorrah.” (Literally)
> Matt. 19:28 “the 12 tribes of Israel.”
Jeremiah 31:16 “from the land of the enemy.”
These all having died in total or relative ignorance, and inherited weakness, prior to the millennial day of judgment!

>Jesus stated again in John 12: 47-48 “if any man hear my words and believe not, I judge him not-the word I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.” >>A resurrection by judgments during the “times of restitution” Acts 3:21. When the true “way of holiness” Isaiah 35:8 will be prepared for mankind! Isaiah 11:9 “shall not hurt or destroy.” Isaiah 26:9 “when thy judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants will learn righteousness.” With Satan bound a 1,000 years!
1 Cor. 15:23 “every man in his own order.”

THE CALL OF OUR PRESENT AGE! John 6:44,65
Acts 15:14-18 “God did at the first visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.”>> A spiritual church for his Son; the Christ. (the Spirit and the Bride)
Rev. 22:17. Jesus said: “Deny self and follow me” Matt. 16:24 “ sanctify them through thy truth” >>John 17:17 “ be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life” Rev 2:10. The completion of this “first resurrection” ends this age! THEN-Rev. 21:2 “new Jerusalem coming down out of heaven” >>Acts 7:48 “God dwelleth not in temples made with hands.” Then the “millennial” reign of Christ actually begins!
Psalm 102:18 “the people that shall be created"!!!

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<°°°>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Message: Good News!

Do not leave the earth out of the picture!>>> Yes,Isaiah 24:5 is the present condition!."the earth is polluted under the inhabitants"//, but this will change as the general resurrection unfolds! >>>For example,in Ezekiel 36:10-11 God states" i will multiply men upon you,all the house of Israel,ALL of it ! "++-vs.11"and will do better, than at your beginnings: and you shall know that I am the Lord!". (Multiplied by the resurrection promised to them in Ezekiel 37+Isaiah 42+49:6-9"say to the prisoners,go forth;"!>>> .see Ezekiel 36:31"then shall you remember your own evil ways"etc.That generation!/those people will remember because they have been made alive again under the new covenant made with Israel!(Jeremiah 31-all..)remember the words of Moses.>>>Deut.30:2-8"return and obey"// Of course everyone gets another opportunity! That is what the prophets spoke of! The nations shall benefit in order; >>>Zech.8:23"the nations".>>>Zech.12:7-13"the tents of Judah first"!>>> Deuteronomy 18:18"a prophet from among their brethren" (Jesus Christ was a Jew..) Wait for it ! >>>(John 5:28-29)..

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<°°°>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Message: A KINGDOM IS ….

future

Psalm72***"Give the king thy judgements,O God,and thy righteousness unto the king's son. He shall judge thy people with righteousness,and thy poor with judgement."./>>vs.4-He shall judge the poor of the people,he shall save the children of the needy--/>>>vs.13-He shall spare the poor and needy,and shall save the souls of the needy.!"//>>As the first advent was a precursor to the return of Jesus Christ;---i.e.the miracles of healing,sustenance,and resurrection enacted by the power of God,--so also at his return! />>see Ephesians 1:10, for example,on a global scale!>> 1Tim.2:4"God will have ALL men to be saved,and to come to a knowledge of the truth"->>>-Deuteronomy32:4"the Rock,his work perfect"! >>>John 5:28-29"all those in the tombs will hear his voice"(his son's-Jesus Christ),;>>a visible resurrection to a new life and opportunity ,as the earth is healed by God !!!

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<°>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

>> MESSIAH >> ( WAS/IS) >> A JEW..
( a Hebrew )
♦The only one of the descendants of Abraham who could fulfill, and will fulfill , the old testament prophecies spoken of concerning the Messiah !
Genesis 22:8 ("God will provide himself a lamb"), as stated by Abraham..
Exodus 12:6 ("the congregation of Israel shall kill it in the
( evening"), (the lamb of the Passover).
Leviticus 16:6 ("Aaron shall offer his bullock of the sin-offering").
( type of Jesus ).
Leviticus(l6:15("the goat of the sin-offering for the people")
( type of the church ).
Numbers 28:3 ("two lambs")>>("day by day")—>>("a continual burnt-
("offering") (effective forever!").
Deuteronomy 18:15 Moses stated ("the Lord thy God will rise up
*** Unto thee a prophet from the midst of thee…”)
An atonement price, for all time , and effective for those long-dead, would have to be better than that of lambs ,goats, and cattle! >>>Please note ; the tabernacle picture in Leviticus 16 is ongoing , through-out human history until the present time; this culminates ,and merges into the temple picture narrated by Solomon ! ***Then Messiah’s king dom actually begins !
***Daniel 9:26 >> ("shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself!").Note the satisfaction for sins completed in this scripture!
Isaiah 11:1 >> ("a rod out of the stem of Jesse")
Isaiah 42: all >> ("give thee for a covenant of the people").
***Isaiah 53:7 >> ("he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter")
Isaiah 53:8 >> ("for the transgression of my people")...
Micah 5;2 >> (" shall he come forth unto me to be ruler in Israel")! ">>> 4:8 (" 0 tower of the flock")

A spiritual king, to restore and accomplish the fulflllment of the promises made to Israel by God, his Father !!!
Genesis 15:15 >> ("for all the land which thou seest, to thee will I give it and to thy seed forever!"). This promise will be realized soon!

Then Israel’s "judges" will be restored “ as at the first “ (Isaiah 1:26) (Abraham , Isaac, Jacob, David, with many others! >>> See Ezekiel 36:11( “do better unto you than at your beginnings”), >>(to answer Moses’ prayer, in Psalms 90,) >>>*Ezek.36:26(“new heart”),>> Ezek.36:31(“then shall ye remember your own evil ways”), That generation! Literally! They will be resurrected to earth,>> in the fulfillment of Ezekiel 37 (“the whole house of Israel”)>>> the “6 million+ lost in the Holocaust generation also!! >>> This is echoed in many of the Prophets’ statements ;>> * Jeremiah 31:1 (“at the same time”),>>*Jeremiah 31:27 (“I will sow the house of Israel and the house of Judah with the seed of man, and the seed of beast.”) Jeremiah will get his land !* .( Jer.32:11),>( *Isaiah 29:23 (“when he (Abraham) seeth his children, the work of my hands, in the midst of him”)!>>>*Isaiah 33:24 (“the inhabitant shall not say I am sick: the people that dwell therein shall be forgiven their iniquity!”)
The population of earth is blessed in order !>> >*Zechariah 8:22 (“ all languages of the nations”),>> to a fair trial for eternal life, under wonderful conditions!> See* Isaiah 35:all! >>>*Isaiah 65:20(“ as a child a sinner shall die an hundred years old”), the minimum age,( when decided), on the way to eternal life..You will be there! >>See *Isaiah 51:3(“wilderness like Eden”), 51:6(“my salvation shall be forever”),>>and* Isaiah 25:7(“destroy in this mountain the face of the covering cast over all people”)..vs.8 (“He will swallow up death in victory”)!
These scriptures all apply to natural Israel , as well as the spiritual nation..>>>*Psalms 104:30-31(“Thou sendest forth thy spirit,they are created,and thou renewest the face of the earth”..(“the glory of the Lord shall endure forever: the Lord shall rejoice in his works!")

Albion said:

Camper, I appreciate the comments, but "soul sleep" is something I cannot affirm, since there is too much in Scripture that points to the other POV. It doesn't offend me, particularly, but I cannot buy into it.

While I am reluctant to go along with those who say it's a mark of a cult (for redefining the nature of Man, created in the image and likeness of God), I would say that if there's something carried over from the Hebrews that ought not to have been, this (soul sleep) would qualify.

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Keep studying Probation has not closed yet.

?? That would be more SDA jargon, I presume.

mmbattlestar said:

From Adam and Eve's time till Christ was ministering how were people saved? Not to many people debate for instance Adam and Eve's salvation. Or Abraham or King Saul, or King David. But just how were they saved when Jesus hadn't died on the cross yet? When Jesus was ministering people how were they saved? By believing that he was the Messiah? Were people saved before Jesus was born by believing in the messiah? Was it their works? Their sacrifices to God? Believing in the one true God? Keeping the ten commandments and the law? Just how were Jews saved before they rejected their Messiah? I'm confused.

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You are getting such a hodgepodge of replies because some believe all will be saved, some believe most will be saved, some believe maybe not most but a sizable number will be saved, and some believe few will be saved. Some believe that they are saved. Some believe that they will be saved. But they all have one thing in common. They each one believe they are a winner.

As a pool of muddy water, there may have been some pure water before all the muddy water was brought in to corrupt it. The world's knowledge is like an ocean being fed by many rivers and streams, most muddy and many polluted beyond mere muddiness. But we remain humble to believe that there is somewhere to be found that one pure river of the water of life.

The proper question is how were those of the past before Christ accredited righteousness. For God does not destroy the righteous. And we are plainly told how they before Christ were able to be accredited righteousness.

Romans 4:3 “For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.”

Hebrews chapter 11 begins at Abel, telling us how faith saved him and a long line of faithful witnesses after him leading up to Christ.

Romans 10:10 “For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.”

Ever since Genesis 3:15 mankind who listened to God knew God had promised a savior.

Hillsage said: The promise of a messiah coming wasn't even made until long after they were dead and buried.

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Original Happy Camper said:

Genesis 3:15
And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

"Luther took Gen 3:15, what has been called the “proto-evangelion,” as the original promise of the gospel. God comforted Adam and Eve in the face of their sin by promising to send his own son as the seed that would crush the serpent’s heel."

http://pdf.amazingdiscoveries.org/References/RtR/PDF-905/The Reformers and the Law .pdf

"
It was in Eden that Adam and Eve were promised a Saviour:

And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and her Seed; He shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise His heel (Genesis 3:15).

The Seed in this verse is God Himself—Jesus. God's own Son, on the day Adam and Eve sinned, stepped in to take their place. Later in verse 21, Adam and Eve are given tunics of skin to cover their nakedness. This skin is from the first lamb that had to die. This lamb was a symbol of God's own Son that would come one day and die in the place of humanity.

The lamb was also the first announcement that a Saviour—the Seed—would come, born a part of the human race to redeem humanity from Satan's dominion. The lamb signified that God would buy back with blood what was His in the first place."

The Gospel Story

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I'll stand by my quote at the top of the page. There was no promise of a messiah or plan to save Adam/Eve or anyone else in the world in this Gen 3:15 verse. And 'that' was the original question of the OP. There was only a promise "bruise the head of the serpent."....whatever that really means???? I don't remember ever hearing much on that.

And as for faith being part of salvation from the beginning, I'll disagree also. Especially since one can't even find the word 'faith' in multiple translations until thousands of years after the garden, and possibly not until Moses. So I think our 'present' theology positions, of what happened way back, is based upon too much assumption which really is just coming from what we never even learned or heard of, until the New Testament, thousands of years after the garden.

In all honesty, I doubt that even Luther would have ever come up with his theological correlation with Genesis 3:15 if he ddin't have the NT scriptures to help.

That's just my thoughts on it anyway.

Hillsage said:

I'll stand by my quote at the top of the page. There was no promise of a messiah or plan to save Adam/Eve or anyone else in the world in this Gen 3:15 verse. And 'that' was the original question of the OP. There was only a promise "bruise the head of the serpent."....whatever that really means???? I don't remember ever hearing much on that.

And as for faith being part of salvation from the beginning, I'll disagree also. Especially since one can't even find the word 'faith' in multiple translations until thousands of years after the garden, and possibly not until Moses. So I think our 'present' theology positions, of what happened way back, is based upon too much assumption which really is just coming from what we never even learned or heard of, until the New Testament, thousands of years after the garden.

In all honesty, I doubt that even Luther would have ever come up with his theological correlation with Genesis 3:15 if he ddin't have the NT scriptures to help.

That's just my thoughts on it anyway.

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"I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel." Genesis 3:15. The divine sentence pronounced against Satan after the fall of man was also a prophecy, embracing all the ages to the close of time and foreshadowing the great conflict to engage all the races of men who should live upon the earth."

Enmity Between Man and Satan

Original Happy Camper said:

"I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel." Genesis 3:15. The divine sentence pronounced against Satan after the fall of man was also a prophecy, embracing all the ages to the close of time and foreshadowing the great conflict to engage all the races of men who should live upon the earth."

Enmity Between Man and Satan

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Ellen White: God declares: "I will put enmity." This enmity is not naturally entertained. When man transgressed the divine law, his nature became evil, and he was in harmony, and not at variance, with Satan. There exists naturally no enmity between sinful man and the originator of sin. Both became evil through apostasy.

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Ellen White's first error IMO is to believe man's nature became evil. Man's nature was just as God created it to be. Man's nature had just never been tempted/tested. And the first time it was, it failed man, with no surprise to God. 'The lamb that was slain before the foundation of the world' was slain because God knew it would be needed....and it was all according to His omniscient plan.

JER 2:19 Your wickedness will chasten you, and your apostasy will reprove you. Know and see that it is evil and bitter for you to forsake the LORD your God; the fear of me is not in you, says the Lord GOD of hosts.

The very definition of Satan is that of "an opponent" (Hebrew), and "an adversary (one who opposes another in purpose or act)," (Greek). And he has been our adversary before God, from the very beginning when he tempted Eve and then Adam.

mmbattlestar said:

Isn't it a story that Jesus descended into hell and saved those who went there? I heard something along those lines. But what made a person worth saving? What saved people in OT times?

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That is a catholic teaching not found in the Bible... in Ephesians 4:9 it says that Jesus descended into the lower parts of the earth... this was the grave, or more specifically the tomb in which He was buried. Nothing more.

mmbattlestar said:

From Adam and Eve's time till Christ was ministering how were people saved? Not to many people debate for instance Adam and Eve's salvation. Or Abraham or King Saul, or King David. But just how were they saved when Jesus hadn't died on the cross yet? When Jesus was ministering people how were they saved? By believing that he was the Messiah? Were people saved before Jesus was born by believing in the messiah? Was it their works? Their sacrifices to God? Believing in the one true God? Keeping the ten commandments and the law? Just how were Jews saved before they rejected their Messiah? I'm confused.

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Hebrews 11:13
These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

Luke 5:20
And when he saw their faith, he said unto him, Man, thy sins are forgiven thee.

Luke 7:50
And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace.

Acts 26:18
To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

Hillsage said:

Ellen White's first error IMO is to believe man's nature became evil. Man's nature was just as God created it to be.

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The angels' nature was just as He had created as well.. in fact we are told that Lucifer was created perfect from the beginning... how did his nature become evil? To say otherwise is to accuse God of creating evil.

Man's nature had just never been tempted/tested.

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All of God's created being were given the gift of free will... Adam and Eve disobeyed God and were separated form Him, just as Satan was.

Albion said:

You can say that Abraham was saved by Faith, all right, but he didn't go Heaven until after Christ, which is why I included the comment about being saved in the "strictest" sense. It took the Cross to reconcile Mankind to God and I understood the question of this thread to be asking how any mortal could reach Heaven before the Savior had come.

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The story of the rich man and Lazarus (Luke 16:19-31 NIV) was before Jesus' death and resurrection. So it indicates where believers in OT (e.g. went at death). Where did Lazarus go at death?

As an extension of this: Do Christians at death go directly to heaven?

Oz

Albion said:

Camper, I appreciate the comments, but "soul sleep" is something I cannot affirm, since there is too much in Scripture that points to the other POV. It doesn't offend me, particularly, but I cannot buy into it.

While I am reluctant to go along with those who say it's a mark of a cult (for redefining the nature of Man, created in the image and likeness of God), I would say that if there's something carried over from the Hebrews that ought not to have been, this (soul sleep) would qualify.

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Albion,

I also do not support the soul sleep doctrine. I've attempted to address this issue biblically in my article, Soul Sleep: A Refutation.

Oz

Albion said:

Naaa. All you're saying there is that there is an urge to be loving that all people can recognize.

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Yes, I hope that is what I'm saying.