The second reformation.

Gregory Thompson

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I am thinking the real complaint should be churches are living far beneath what God has given and can be attained to with its current set up.
You can’t get from the 5 empowerment’s (not offices) listed in Ephesians. Nor can you get away from supporting them so they can dedicate themselves full time to maintaining that supernatural empowerment so they can serve others with it.
So the real question becomes how do people become servents rather than leaders. (Knowing full well that the “servent leader” idea is just more of the same old same old with a different name.)

So it’s not that God has forsaken a church because it has set up some kind of institutional governing structure. It’s just they don’t have what it takes to do differently in a higher level.
I appreciate your response, we definitely are more than we seem, through maturity this becomes apparent. Trust that works through love seems to be the way.
 
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Anguspure

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I don't think so. It is evident from the NT writings that to be a Christian in the early days meant to join in the fellowship of the community, partake of the prayers and the Holy Meal, and to share property with other believers in that local Christian community.
I agree with the above, and despair that it is no longer possible in this Western world.
 
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A Call to Persevere (Hebrews 10)
…24 And let us consider how to spur one another on to love and good deeds. 25 Let us not neglect meeting together, as some have made a habit, but let us encourage one another, and all the more as you see the Day approaching. 26 If we deliberately go on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no further sacrifice for sins remains,…

Berean Study Bible

Take a look at this or any other Christian Forum. How can the assembly, the 260,000+ members of this community learn from each other as we probably have 260,000+ opinions on how a certain text should be translated and, more importantly, understood? So having been witness to so much bad teaching, my wife and I are churchless. But our faith in Jesus has grown much stronger over the years. Just my opinion.
 
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PeaceByJesus

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I think we all always tend to read through our theological lenses, whatever those may be. I have found many other examples of things I missed before, (and before that, as I went through several periods of growth) but that isn't the point of this thread.

The Church had to be the pillar and ground of truth as the Gospel was being spread initially because the NT Scriptures hadn't been written.
Which is an example reading through one's theological lenses, since while your statement and reasoning is typical of Catholics, who try to use a text which says "church living God, pillar and ground the truth" (1Timothy 3:15, going by just the Greek words present) to support the idea that The Church is the supreme infallible authority on the Truth, without which we could not and would not ascertain what is of God and have the Scriptures.

But which is a kind of ex nihilo church, while in reality long before the church began and as it did, common souls ascertained both men and writings of God, and thus the NT church actually began with itinerant preachers and Preacher establishing their claims Scriptural substantiation in word and in power, in dissent from the historical magisterial stewards of Scripture.

Thus the church cannot be greater than its doctrinal, devotional and prophetic foundation, with its gospel "Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures." (Romans 1:2)

However, it is the ordained support and defender of the Truth, and based upon it, and as is abundantly evidenced, as written, Scripture became the transcendent supreme standard for obedience and testing and establishing truth claims as the wholly Divinely inspired and assured, Word of God.

Whereby even the veracity of the apostles themselves was subject to testing by it, (Acts 17:11) and more conflative and complementary writings of God recognized as being so, as those before them were, thanks be to God.
 
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PeaceByJesus

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Hebrews 13
17 Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they keep watch over your souls as those who will give an account. Let them do this with joy and not with grief, for this would be unprofitable for you.


The Reformation was opposed to certain heresies and errors that crept into the church (beginning several hundred years earlier), not to the existence and the necessity of the church and/or its leadership in a general sense.

As for priests, bishops, overseers, elders, deacons, etc., I believe these positions of leadership are Biblical, not man-made, yes?

--David
p.s. - do you know of any examples of "churchless" Christians in the Bible?
Bishops and overseers and elders all refer to the same office, while nowhere does the NT teach a separate sacerdotal class of believers, corresponding to the Old Testament priesthood, kohen, for which the distinctive Greek word "hiereus" is uniquely used by the Holy Spirit in NT.

But who never uses that distinctive word for NT church pastors, and instead the words "episkopos" (superintendent or overseer, referring to function), and "presbuteros" (senior, in age, implying maturity, and or position) were used, with both referring to the same person in the pastoral office. (Titus 1:5,7; Acts 20:17,28)

All believers are called to sacrifice (Rm. 12:1; 15:16; Phil. 2:17; 4:18; Heb. 13:15,16; cf. 9:9) and all constitute the only priesthood (hieráteuma) in the NT church, that of all believers, (1Pt. 2:5,9; Re 1:6; 5:10; 20:6).

However, since in Catholicism presbyters are considered a distinctive sacerdotal class of believers then Catholicism translates the distinctive Greek word hiereus for their priests as a denoting this distinctive sacerdotal class, thereby losing the distinction the Holy Spirit provided by never distinctively using the term of hiereus for NT presbuteros, or describing as them as a distinctive sacerdotal class of believers.

You will never even see them described as conducting the Lord's supper in the only wholly inspired record of what the NT church believed (Acts - Revelation, including how they understood the gospels) of what the church did and how they understood the gospels. Though I am sure they did conduct this, yet they are not seen or charged with this in the epistles as being a unique and or primary function, nor preaching the Lord's supper as the means of regeneration, that of obtaining spiritual life.

Which is in contrast to presbuteros/episkopeos (same persons) being charged with and exampled as preaching the word as their primary active function, (2Tim. 4:2) feeding the flock thereby. (Acts 20:28) with believing the gospel being the means of regeneration, of obtaining spiritual life (Acts 10:43; 15:7-9; Eph. 1:13) and being nourished (1Tim. 4:6) and built up (Acts 20:32) for the word, is what is called spiritual food, "milk" (1Co. 3:22; 1Pt. 1:22) and "meat," (Heb. 5:12-14

Which is just one of the many Catholic distinctives not manifest in that inspired record.
 
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PeaceByJesus

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So it does. Maybe that is because leaven is just leaven and it have no specific meaning in scripture. The context is what gives leaven a specific meaning and the word "leaven" does not decide the meaning of the context.
Indeed, as it is used as being an agent of effect, that just as in the physical realm it makes bread to grow thru permeation, so it is used as symbolically in the spiritual realm for something that produces an effect, and in regard to how it is used to produce the effect, positive or negative:

Then Jesus said unto them, Take heed and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees. (Matthew 16:6)

How is it that ye do not understand that I spake it not to you concerning bread, that ye should beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees? Then understood they how that he bade them not beware of the leaven of bread, but of the doctrine of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees. (Matthew 16:11-12)

Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump? Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us: (1 Corinthians 5:6-7)

This persuasion cometh not of him that calleth you. A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump. (Galatians 5:8-9)

Another parable spake he unto them; The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened. (Matthew 13:33)
 
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MarkRohfrietsch

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I understand the biblical premise of the whole thing. I'm just considering the perspective of the other side. For example: since pastors need to go to a church approved seminary, isn't the modern pastor a means of scratching itching ears?

There are some, in every Church, not just in the various Churches born out of the Reformation; likewise there are sincere, steadfast and orthodox Pastors these Churches as well... often their pews are not as full as those who scratch itchy ears.

Clergy that pander to the will of congregations when it is at odds with the will of God are not Pastors, and these Pastors are usually the same ones that judge their success on how full the Church is. Full Churches do not automatically equate to swelling the numbers of the company of Heaven.
 
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~Anastasia~

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Which is an example reading through one's theological lenses, since while your statement and reasoning is typical of Catholics, who try to use a text which says "church living God, pillar and ground the truth" (1Timothy 3:15, going by just the Greek words present) to support the idea that The Church is the supreme infallible authority on the Truth, without which we could not and would not ascertain what is of God and have the Scriptures.

But which is a kind of ex nihilo church, while in reality long before the church began and as it did, common souls ascertained both men and writings of God, and thus the NT church actually began with itinerant preachers and Preacher establishing their claims Scriptural substantiation in word and in power, in dissent from the historical magisterial stewards of Scripture.

Thus the church cannot be greater than its doctrinal, devotional and prophetic foundation, with its gospel "Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures." (Romans 1:2)

However, it is the ordained support and defender of the Truth, and based upon it, and as is abundantly evidenced, as written, Scripture became the transcendent supreme standard for obedience and testing and establishing truth claims as the wholly Divinely inspired and assured, Word of God.

Whereby even the veracity of the apostles themselves was subject to testing by it, (Acts 17:11) and more conflative and complementary writings of God recognized as being so, as those before them were, thanks be to God.

I'm not sure what you're getting at? Which itinerant preachers? Who doing the writing?

The Apostles established the Church, as outlined in Acts. There are other historic records as well. And we know the rough dates when various books of the NT were written and began to be circulated ... to the Churches that already existed.

I'm not Catholic. This is pretty easily found out by non-Catholic sources.

But I'm really not interested in arguing. If you believe something else ... that's your right.

It really is easy to research these matters though, and read many other documents produced by the early Church.

God be with you.
 
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~Anastasia~

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There are some, in every Church, not just in the various Churches born out of the Reformation; likewise there are sincere, steadfast and orthodox Pastors these Churches as well... often their pews are not as full as those who scratch itchy ears.

Clergy that pander to the will of congregations when it is at odds with the will of God are not Pastors, and these Pastors are usually the same ones that judge their success on how full the Church is. Full Churches do not automatically equate to swelling the numbers of the company of Heaven.
HI MARK!!!

Good to see you, my brother! :)
 
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MarkRohfrietsch

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Bishops and overseers and elders all refer to the same office, while nowhere does the NT teach a separate sacerdotal class of believers, corresponding to the Old Testament priesthood, kohen, for which the distinctive Greek word "hiereus" is uniquely used by the Holy Spirit in NT.

But who never uses that distinctive word for NT church pastors, and instead the words "episkopos" (superintendent or overseer, referring to function), and "presbuteros" (senior, in age, implying maturity, and or position) were used, with both referring to the same person in the pastoral office. (Titus 1:5,7; Acts 20:17,28)

All believers are called to sacrifice (Rm. 12:1; 15:16; Phil. 2:17; 4:18; Heb. 13:15,16; cf. 9:9) and all constitute the only priesthood (hieráteuma) in the NT church, that of all believers, (1Pt. 2:5,9; Re 1:6; 5:10; 20:6).

However, since in Catholicism presbyters are considered a distinctive sacerdotal class of believers then Catholicism translates the distinctive Greek word hiereus for their priests as a denoting this distinctive sacerdotal class, thereby losing the distinction the Holy Spirit provided by never distinctively using the term of hiereus for NT presbuteros, or describing as them as a distinctive sacerdotal class of believers.

You will never even see them described as conducting the Lord's supper in the only wholly inspired record of what the NT church believed (Acts - Revelation, including how they understood the gospels) of what the church did and how they understood the gospels. Though I am sure they did conduct this, yet they are not seen or charged with this in the epistles as being a unique and or primary function, nor preaching the Lord's supper as the means of regeneration, that of obtaining spiritual life.

Which is in contrast to presbuteros/episkopeos (same persons) being charged with and exampled as preaching the word as their primary active function, (2Tim. 4:2) feeding the flock thereby. (Acts 20:28) with believing the gospel being the means of regeneration, of obtaining spiritual life (Acts 10:43; 15:7-9; Eph. 1:13) and being nourished (1Tim. 4:6) and built up (Acts 20:32) for the word, is what is called spiritual food, "milk" (1Co. 3:22; 1Pt. 1:22) and "meat," (Heb. 5:12-14

Which is just one of the many Catholic distinctives not manifest in that inspired record.
The ambiguity of what you wrote is why most Christians accept that Scripture is not definitive regarding Church polity. Truth is, Christ gave authority over such matters to His Church, to appoint leaders. If a Church chooses to do so through an Episcopal structure or through a Congregationalist model; that is up to the discretion of the particular Church. To condemn one as wrong because one prefers another mode makes no sense.

I'm Lutheran, kind of a mix of congregationalist and episcopal in structure; and that works. Regarding the Catholic Church, I have no problem with the Pope being the Patriarch... where I do have issues is with the supreme authority given to that office, but it is an authority that has been abused way less in this past century, and they too have been blessed with good Pastoral leadership in the Papal office.

Edited: Auto-correct sucks.
 
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SolomonVII

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Maybe if the first Reformation was again an authoritarian dictation of the truth, the second reformation needs to be against the anarchy that results from a world that has lost its centre of gravity.

The opposite end of the pole from autocratic Theocracy is anarchic Nihilism.
The parameters of truth pre-Reformation were to believe upon the authority of the pope and the bishops that came before. The parameters of truth in today's post-modernist world do not lie with excessive believe in the authority of any pastor, not even the pope. Post-modernism rejects even the possibility of truth in favor of narrative.

That is where we are at today, as Catholics, Protestants, atheists, and agnostics.
All authority is questioned, and the answer often is that there is no truth, or that truth is an impossible goal.
There is a need for a second Reformation to be sure, but it is not against ecclesiastical authority of any kind. It would have to be against the impossible world of post-modernists, in which truth itself is rejected.

The first step away from that world is to understand that truth lies in what works to enhance our lives. That is to say that Jesus is true not because my pope or pastor or even my Bible tells me so. Jesus is true because following in his footsteps leads us on a path of unprecedented glory and ecstasy. Following his path leads whole societies onto a path of excellence and unprecedented achievement.
 
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Oldmantook

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Roman Catholicism has its Pope. Protestantism has its popes. The church which is supposed to consist of living stones has made the Sr. Pastor the only stone in addition to Jesus who is the cornerstone. Much like the Israelites who desired a king to rule over them, churches desire a pastor to lead them and feel lost when the don't have a pastor. This hierarchy has created an institution led by the traditions of men rather than an organism led by the Holy Spirit. The focus is on one man and his giftings rather than the combined giftings of each believer in the church working mutually, each doing his/her part to edify one another. As a result the church has strayed from the Apostle Paul's instructions on what should happen when the church gathers together to meet. Hence the following by Rusty Entrekin:
The New Testament Way to Meet
  • How is it then, brethren? When ye come together, everyone of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying.
  • If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two or at the most by three, and that by course, and let one interpret. But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.
  • Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge. If anything be revealed to another that sitteth by, let the first hold his peace. For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted. And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets. For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all the churches of the saints.
  • Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law. And if they will learn anything, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for a woman to speak in the church. What! Came the word of God out from you? Or came it to you only?
  • If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord. But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant.
  • Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues. Let all things be done decently, and in order.
    1 Co 14:26-40 (KJV)
Our Modern Way of Meeting
  • How is it then, brethren? When ye come together, the pastor hath a doctrine, and the minister of music hath psalms. Let all things be done unto edifying.
  • If anyone besides the pastor hath a doctrine, let him not speak; let him hold his peace. Let him sit in the pew, and face the back of the neck of the person which sitteth ahead of him.
  • Let the people keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith church tradition. But if they will learn anything, let them ask their pastor after the service, for it is a shame for a layman to speak in the church. For the pastor, he hath a seminary degree, and the layman, he hath not so lofty a degree.
  • If any man desire to remain a church member in good standing, let him acknowledge that what I write to you is the command of the denominational headquarters. But if any man ignore this, he shall be promptly escorted out the door by the ushers.
  • Wherefore brothers, covet not to speak in the church. Let all things be done decently and in the order in which it hath been written in the church bulletin.
  • If any man desire to remain a church member in good standing, let him acknowledge that what I write to you is the command of the denominational headquarters. But if any man ignore this, he shall be promptly escorted out the door by the ushers.
  • Wherefore brothers, covet not to speak in the church. Let all things be done decently and in the order in which it hath been written in the church bulletin.
 
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Albion

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There is also no such thing as a Protestant Pope.

Even in the denominations which have a strongly centralized form of church government, there is no comparison between a presiding bishop or elder or president and the Pope, with all that is believed by the Catholic Church about the position and authority of the Pope.
 
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PanDeVida

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The first reformation protested the Pope

The second reformation protests the Pastor and the institution that creates the pastor.

thoughts?

Michael, People can protest left and right and that don't mean a thing and don't mean they are correct. This goes for the first protest/protestors against the Church. It only count when Jesus Christ protests and he will never protest against the Church that He founded on rock. If Jesus Christ were to to protest His Church, you know the one, the one that compiled scripture into a book called Bible, well then, that would only mean that gates of hell did prevail against it after all.

Merry Christmas
 
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ViaCrucis

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The first reformation protested the Pope

The second reformation protests the Pastor and the institution that creates the pastor.

thoughts?

The Reformation did not protest the Pope. The problem of the papacy was secondary and peripheral to the point of the Reformation and what the Reformers were seeking to accomplish. This is a bit like saying the American war for independence was about claiming France as an ally--sure, that happened, but that was hardly the point.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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