State of the Dead

Butch5 · Dec 22, 2017

EastCoastRemnant said:
In conversing with another member about the Biblical teaching of what happens to us when we die, I thought it would be wise to post a study on the subject so we can all know what the Bible says... how we interpret what is revealed is on each of us.

Verses that speak of the dead being asleep, in a state of inanimate sleep

Deuteronomy 31:16
And the Lord said unto Moses, Behold, thou shalt sleep with thy fathers;

2 Samuel 7:12
And when thy days be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers,

1 Kings 1:21
Otherwise it shall come to pass, when my lord the king shall sleep with his fathers, that I and my son Solomon shall be counted offenders.

Job 7:21
And why dost thou not pardon my transgression, and take away my iniquity? for now shall I sleep in the dust; and thou shalt seek me in the morning, but I shall not be.

Job 14:12
So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep.

Psalm 13:3
Consider and hear me, O Lord my God: lighten mine eyes, lest I sleep the sleep of death;

Psalm 90:5
Thou carriest them away as with a flood; they are as a sleep: in the morning they are like grass which groweth up.

Daniel 12:2
And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Matthew 9:24
He said unto them, Give place: for the maid is not dead, but sleepeth. And they laughed him to scorn

Mark 5:39
And when he was come in, he saith unto them, Why make ye this ado, and weep? the damsel is not dead, but sleepeth.

Luke 8:52,53
And all wept, and bewailed her: but he said, Weep not; she is not dead, but sleepeth.
And they laughed him to scorn, knowing that she was dead.

John 11:11-13
These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.
Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well.
Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.

1 Corinthians 15:51
Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

Ephesians 5:14
Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light.

1 Thessalonians 4:14
For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

Psalm 88:10
Wilt thou shew wonders to the dead? shall the dead arise and praise thee? Selah.

Psalm 115:17
The dead praise not the Lord, neither any that go down into silence.

Ecclesiastes 9:5
For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

1 Corinthians 15:52
In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

1 Thessalonians 4:16
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

Revelation 20:5
But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

Acts 2:29
Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.

Psalm 146:4
His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.

There may be a couple I missed but you get the idea... multiple witnesses to the state of the dead. Now lets look at the passages of scripture that speak of immediate translation to Heaven. I only know of a couple so if there be any others, please post them up...thanx.

Luke 16:19-31
There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:
And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

Luke 23:43
And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.

I would submit that death being spoken of as sleep is a metaphor. People who die are actually dead. The sleep metaphor fits because everyone will one day be resurrected. So it as though one sleeps and later wakes again. In these last two passages notice that nothing is said of Heaven. The parable of Lazarus and the Rich man isn't about life after death, it's judgement against the Jewish leadership. Note that Jesus is talking to the Pharisees. The passage concerning the thief is simply punctuated incorrectly. If you move the comma from before the word "today" to after it, it changes the entire meaning of the sentence. Since there was no punctuation in the Greek text it is added at the discretion of the translator.

EastCoastRemnant · Dec 22, 2017

Butch5 said:
I would submit that death being spoken of as sleep is a metaphor. People who die are actually dead. The sleep metaphor fits because everyone will one day be resurrected. So it as though one sleeps and later wakes again. In these last two passages notice that nothing is said of Heaven. The parable of Lazarus and the Rich man isn't about life after death, it's judgement against the Jewish leadership. Note that Jesus is talking to the Pharisees. The passage concerning the thief is simply punctuated incorrectly. If you move the comma from before the word "today" to after it, it changes the entire meaning of the sentence. Since there was no punctuation in the Greek text it is added at the discretion of the translator.

I agree completely... "for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven."

LoveofTruth · Dec 24, 2017

EastCoastRemnant said:
In conversing with another member about the Biblical teaching of what happens to us when we die, I thought it would be wise to post a study on the subject so we can all know what the Bible says... how we interpret what is revealed is on each of us.

Verses that speak of the dead being asleep, in a state of inanimate sleep

Deuteronomy 31:16
And the Lord said unto Moses, Behold, thou shalt sleep with thy fathers;

2 Samuel 7:12
And when thy days be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers,

1 Kings 1:21
Otherwise it shall come to pass, when my lord the king shall sleep with his fathers, that I and my son Solomon shall be counted offenders.

Job 7:21
And why dost thou not pardon my transgression, and take away my iniquity? for now shall I sleep in the dust; and thou shalt seek me in the morning, but I shall not be.

Job 14:12
So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep.

Psalm 13:3
Consider and hear me, O Lord my God: lighten mine eyes, lest I sleep the sleep of death;

Psalm 90:5
Thou carriest them away as with a flood; they are as a sleep: in the morning they are like grass which groweth up.

Daniel 12:2
And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Matthew 9:24
He said unto them, Give place: for the maid is not dead, but sleepeth. And they laughed him to scorn

Mark 5:39
And when he was come in, he saith unto them, Why make ye this ado, and weep? the damsel is not dead, but sleepeth.

Luke 8:52,53
And all wept, and bewailed her: but he said, Weep not; she is not dead, but sleepeth.
And they laughed him to scorn, knowing that she was dead.

John 11:11-13
These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.
Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well.
Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.

1 Corinthians 15:51
Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

Ephesians 5:14
Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light.

1 Thessalonians 4:14
For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

Psalm 88:10
Wilt thou shew wonders to the dead? shall the dead arise and praise thee? Selah.

Psalm 115:17
The dead praise not the Lord, neither any that go down into silence.

Ecclesiastes 9:5
For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

1 Corinthians 15:52
In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

1 Thessalonians 4:16
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

Revelation 20:5
But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

Acts 2:29
Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.

Psalm 146:4
His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.

There may be a couple I missed but you get the idea... multiple witnesses to the state of the dead. Now lets look at the passages of scripture that speak of immediate translation to Heaven. I only know of a couple so if there be any others, please post them up...thanx.

Luke 16:19-31
There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:
And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

Luke 23:43
And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.

the body sleeps in the ground the spirit goes up

and we read of those who are dead being conscious and speaking etc. In the story of Lazarus and the rich man and other places such as Moses and Elijah speaking in the mountain and the Samuel spirit in OT and this

"And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?"

case closed...

There are many other passages I could bring as well

EastCoastRemnant · Dec 24, 2017

LoveofTruth said:
the body sleeps in the ground the spirit goes up

Can you explain how having an immortal "spirit" within us does not make us immortal?

I read that God is spirit... are we gods as well as Satan implied in the garden to Eve and have an eternal spirit?

The Bible gives the simple formula for man... dust + breath = soul

LoveofTruth · Dec 24, 2017

EastCoastRemnant said:
Can you explain how having an immortal "spirit" within us does not make us immortal?

I read that God is spirit... are we gods as well as Satan implied in the garden to Eve and have an eternal spirit?

The Bible gives the simple formula for man... dust + breath = soul

John 5:29
"And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation."

The state of a person when they die is forever in life or in death. There are some mysteries as to what body those tormented in hell have and how it is different than those with a glorified body. But scriptures is clear, there is no such thing as the false doctrine of "soul sleep"

EastCoastRemnant · Dec 24, 2017

LoveofTruth said:
John 5:29
"And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation."

The state of a person when they die is forever in life or in death. There are some mysteries as to what body those tormented in hell have and how it is different than those with a glorified body. But scriptures is clear, there is no such thing as the false doctrine of "soul sleep"

You avoided the question... are we immortal? Is there a part of us that lives continually and does not see death?

LoveofTruth · Dec 24, 2017

you are trying to be crafty and sly in your questions. I showed clearly that souls that were dead cry out from under the altar. Its that s

EastCoastRemnant said:
You avoided the question... are we immortal? Is there a part of us that lives continually and does not see death?

Yoy are trying to be crafty and sly. I already showed you that souls that have died cry out under the altar .Its that simple there is clearly consciousness after death.

Your argument will have to twist certain truths in scripture to avoid the obvious. Like the literal story of the rich man and Lazarus. Some need to make that a parable to escape the clear consequence. But Jesus doesn't tell us fables and he was speaking of consciousness after death.

We also see Moses and Elijah talking to Jesus on the mountain. Moses had died. So we see he was conscious and could talk even though his body had died. He was and is still alive.

We read of the witch and Samuel and a conscious spirit and communication after death.

The body sleeps in the grave the spirit goes up

To vbe absent from the body is present with the Lord. You have to do some fancy scriptural gymnastics to get around some of these verses. Why not just believe the simple truth.

also do you believe that Jesus Christ is God, and that he is the Son of God who existed before he came to the flesh as the Son of God? Or do you believe Jesus is Michael the angel?

EastCoastRemnant · Dec 25, 2017

LoveofTruth said:
Yoy are trying to be crafty and sly. I already showed you that souls that have died cry out under the altar .Its that simple there is clearly consciousness after death.

Unless you believe the saints in Heaven reside under the alter and you ignore that this passage is mentioned in a the context of symbolism. You are also ignoring
Ecclesiastes 9:5
For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing,

Another clue is that the passage in Revelation says that God told the saints to rest a while longer.

Your argument will have to twist certain truths in scripture to avoid the obvious. Like the literal story of the rich man and Lazarus. Some need to make that a parable to escape the clear consequence. But Jesus doesn't tell us fables and he was speaking of consciousness after death.

If the story of Lazarus and the rich man was literal, then that means that the saints in Heaven can communicate with the souls in hell... no corroborating evidence for that in scripture. Not only that, but that the saints above are in the literal bosom of Abraham... I thought they were in Heaven? Where is the 2nd or 3rd witness that Heaven is referred to as the bosom of Abraham?

We also see Moses and Elijah talking to Jesus on the mountain. Moses had died. So we see he was conscious and could talk even though his body had died. He was and is still alive.

Yes and we read in scripture that Moses and Elijah were taken to Heaven... this was such an extraordinary event that the Bible recorded it for us. Moses represent the saints that die before the second coming and are resurrected, Elijah represents the saints that are still alive at His coming and are translated without seeing death.

We read of the witch and Samuel and a conscious spirit and communication after death.

Can a witch command a spirit from Heaven to communicate with her? Why would God give someone who is practicing divination that is clearly forbidden, that kind of power? The better explanation is that it was demons impersonating Samuel. After all,demons would be more that happy to grant a witch her request.

The body sleeps in the grave the spirit goes up

If our spirit is already in Heaven with the Lord, why the need to come in the clouds and shout for the bodies to arise out of the dust? Isn't God powerful enough that He could just give them immortal bodies in Heaven? Is God egotistical that He needs to perform such an extraordinary event for no reason? I wouldn't think so...

To vbe absent from the body is present with the Lord. You have to do some fancy scriptural gymnastics to get around some of these verses. Why not just believe the simple truth.

Simple... there is no existence for us between death and the resurrection. So we are either alive on earth, or we are alive at His coming... there is no life between. You also should consider that the idea of immortality at death is originally a Greek construct... did the pagan Greeks have the truth?

also do you believe that Jesus Christ is God, and that he is the Son of God who existed before he came to the flesh as the Son of God? Or do you believe Jesus is Michael the angel?

Nice attempt to confuse the issue... that's another subject for another time. I have posted on it before if you want to look it up.

LoveofTruth · Dec 25, 2017

EastCoastRemnant said:
Unless you believe the saints in Heaven reside under the alter and you ignore that this passage is mentioned in a the context of symbolism.

I simply believe what it says,

""And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?"

There could be many reasons why at that time they were under the altar. We do not know the exact image of the altar and where they were. But the key parts are they were slain and they are conscious after death. It is very simple. I suggest you abandon your doctrine and believe the truth.

And there is no reason to spiritualize this event away. As if there were no slain under the altar and if they were not conscious and did not speak.

EastCoastRemnant said:
You are also ignoring
Ecclesiastes 9:5
For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing,

You should quote the whole verse here

"5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. 6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun."

This does not mean what you think. For we read verses like and Luke 16:19–31 about Lazarus and the rich man.

"And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal."

Ecclesiastes 3:21
"Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?"

And we read of the dead being happier than the living

"2 Wherefore I praised the dead which are already dead more than the living which are yet alive."(Ecclesiastes 4:2)

an interesting view also is that Jesus calls men who are living "dead" and says let the dead burry their dead. This is while they are alive. Solomon in this book seem to stress the works done under the Sun. When they die they have no more earthly life. This may be the context and understanding. He may not be dealing with the state of consciousness after death here.

But also the body sleeps in the ground and is dead and knows nothing. The spirit is alive and conscious. The body will be resurrected later. That is the simple difference

Paul said

"23 For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:"(Philippians 1:23).

another verse that should end your doctrine. Please consider and try not to twist the meaning to no meaning.

EastCoastRemnant said:
Another clue is that the passage in Revelation says that God told the saints to rest a while longer.

This rest means wait a little longer as the following verse says.

11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled."

This is a real event spoken of not a fiction it cannot be spiritualized away because it so strongly exposes your doctrine.

Let God's word correct your view.

The word "rest" means to repose take ease. They were waiting and told to take ease wait a little longer.

EastCoastRemnant said:
If the story of Lazarus and the rich man was literal, then that means that the saints in Heaven can communicate with the souls in hell... no corroborating evidence for that in scripture. Not only that, but that the saints above are in the literal bosom of Abraham... I thought they were in Heaven? Where is the 2nd or 3rd witness that Heaven is referred to as the bosom of Abraham?

Before Christ died they went to hell and there are two compartments the paradise part where Abraham was and the torment part. To be in Abrahams bosom is a expression of being a child of Abraham by Faith. Paul also says believers are children of Abraham. It is very simple.

The common understanding it=s that Jesus died and went to preach to the spirits . This preaching was not for evangelism to give a second chance but a declaration and telling them of the finished work and he led captivity captive and took them with him. This was after His death. Before his death they were in paradise.

Jesus said to the thief on the cross. This day thou shalt be with me in paradise. That is where the their and Jesus went after they died for a time. This also shows a consciousness after death.

EastCoastRemnant said:
Yes and we read in scripture that Moses and Elijah were taken to Heaven... this was such an extraordinary event that the Bible recorded it for us. Moses represent the saints that die before the second coming and are resurrected, Elijah represents the saints that are still alive at His coming and are translated without seeing death.

You can't get around the fact that Moses was dead and seen at the mountain conscious and speaking and then vanished. This also proved that men are conscious after death. Very strongly. Your argument fails here.

EastCoastRemnant said:
Can a witch command a spirit from Heaven to communicate with her? Why would God give someone who is practicing divination that is clearly forbidden, that kind of power? The better explanation is that it was demons impersonating Samuel. After all,demons would be more that happy to grant a witch her request.

While it is a hard section to interpret. The text in scripture says "sammuel said" it doesn't say the familiar spirit said. This again , if it was actually Samuel proves consciousness after death.

EastCoastRemnant said:
If our spirit is already in Heaven with the Lord, why the need to come in the clouds and shout for the bodies to arise out of the dust? Isn't God powerful enough that He could just give them immortal bodies in Heaven? Is God egotistical that He needs to perform such an extraordinary event for no reason? I wouldn't think so...

Thats your human reasoning. The body sleeps in the grave and the spirit comes to unit with the new body changed. Your argument here has no strength at all.

EastCoastRemnant said:
Simple... there is no existence for us between death and the resurrection. So we are either alive on earth, or we are alive at His coming... there is no life between. You also should consider that the idea of immortality at death is originally a Greek construct... did the pagan Greeks have the truth?

and as I quoted

"23 For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:"(Philippians 1:23).

Is Christ alive and conscious? Yes and so...

EastCoastRemnant said:
Nice attempt to confuse the issue... that's another subject for another time. I have posted on it before if you want to look it up.

This topic might be more important than the one we are discussing. If a man denies the Son he has not the Father.

EastCoastRemnant · Dec 25, 2017

LoveofTruth said:
I simply believe what it says,

""And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?"

There could be many reasons why at that time they were under the altar. We do not know the exact image of the altar and where they were. But the key parts are they were slain and they are conscious after death. It is very simple. I suggest you abandon your doctrine and believe the truth.

And there is no reason to spiritualize this event away. As if there were no slain under the altar and if they were not conscious and did not speak.

Ever hear of a metaphor? The Bible is full of them...

You will believe as you will regardless so I'll leave you with your beliefs.

LoveofTruth · Dec 25, 2017

EastCoastRemnant said:
Ever hear of a metaphor? The Bible is full of them...

You will believe as you will regardless so I'll leave you with your beliefs.

when a doctrine of yours is clearly exposed you simply call the verses against it a metaphor

well that won't help you in the end

Buzz_B · Dec 25, 2017

LoveofTruth said:
when a doctrine of yours is clearly exposed you simply call the verses against it a metaphor

well that won't help you in the end

I truly hate disappointing anyone, but even what you have printed under your name, "Christ builds His church from within us", tells me that you do not properly apply the Greek text.

Are you Lutheran by any chance? I know they teach that the kingdom of God is in each person's heart.
However, that is based on a missed understanding of Luke 17:21 due improper application of the Greek language.

For example:
Luke 3:8 "Bring forth therefore fruits worthy of repentance, and begin not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, That God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham."

One can see that as the individuals reasoning separately within their own selves or they can understand the Greek and know that it means they are speaking this to each other and reasoning together within themselves as a group. A misery loves company sort of a thing. Each one drawing comfort from others with similar faulty thinking in the group.

If Jesus meant the individual separate person's reasoning by their own self, he would have used singular pronouns to indicate that. He would have said, ""Bring forth therefore fruits worthy of repentance, and begin not to say within thy selves, I have Abraham to my father: for I say unto thee, That God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham."

The word translated "within" is better translated "among." It is the Greek preposition, "en". It can be translated a number of ways, as "in", as "within, and often gets translated as "among" when linked to plural pronouns.

I know many do not like that. Many have dogged me for years to dismiss that idea. But it is one of those truths that just keeps proving itself many ways when one doesn't turn a blind eye to it. Once they turn a blind eye to it, it is then not amazing they do not see all the proof for it.

LoveofTruth · Dec 25, 2017

Buzz_B said:
I truly hate disappointing anyone, but even what you have printed under your name, "Christ builds His church from within us", tells me that you do not properly apply the Greek text.

Are you Lutheran by any chance? I know they teach that the kingdom of God is in each person's heart.
However, that is based on a missed understanding of Luke 17:21 due improper application of the Greek language.

For example:
Luke 3:8 "Bring forth therefore fruits worthy of repentance, and begin not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, That God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham."

One can see that as the individuals reasoning separately within their own selves or they can understand the Greek and know that it means they are speaking this to each other and reasoning together within themselves as a group. A misery loves company sort of a thing. Each one drawing comfort from others with similar faulty thinking in the group.

If Jesus meant the individual separate person's reasoning by their own self, he would have used singular pronouns to indicate that. He would have said, ""Bring forth therefore fruits worthy of repentance, and begin not to say within thy selves, I have Abraham to my father: for I say unto thee, That God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham."

The word translated "within" is better translated "among." It is the Greek preposition, "en". It can be translated a number of ways, as "in", as "within, and often gets translated as "among" when linked to plural pronouns.

I know many do not like that. Many have dogged me for years to dismiss that idea. But it is one of those truths that just keeps proving itself many ways when one doesn't turn a blind eye to it. Once they turn a blind eye to it, it is then not amazing they do not see all the proof for it.

I was not referring to that verse. I speak of Hebrews 13:20,21, with Ephesians 4:15,16 etc etc etc and 2 Cor 13:5

you spoke to soon

and I still believe the kingdom of God is "within " meaning in the heart of man. Paul said the kingdom of God is righteousness joy and peace in the Holy Ghost. Jesus speaks of the word of the kingdom sown in the heart etc.

and "within in Luke 17:21 means

"entos"...inside". Plain and simple in the greek. I marvel at how some can try to escape the spiritual aspects and drift off to the natural mind.

Buzz_B · Dec 25, 2017

LoveofTruth said:
I was not referring to that verse. I speak of Hebrews 13:20,21, with Ephesians 4:15,16 etc etc etc and 2 Cor 13:5

you spoke to soon

and I still believe the kingdom of God is "within " meaning in the heart of man. Paul said the kingdom of God is righteousness joy and peace in the Holy Ghost. Jesus speaks of the word of the kingdom sown in the heart etc.

and "within in Luke 17:21 means

"entos"...inside". Plain and simple in the greek. I marvel at how some can try to escape the spiritual aspects and drift off to the natural mind.

I can understand and even sympathize with why you say that about Luke 17:21. But being educated in the Greek language I have no choice but to disagree with you. "You" is the plural "humon" meaning all are addressed as one, and in that verse "within" is "entos" which is correctly translated "within" or "inside". But in the Greek, what the kingdom of God is "within" is the plural "humon." While that plural human is composed of the individuals he is addressing the group rather than them individually. The kingdom of God was standing right there "within" or "inside" their group, that kingdom being represented by Christ himself as the king of that kingdom.

But if you prefer to let yourself continue on improperly using the plural 2nd person Greek pronouns, well, that is on you. "You" in English works differently than in Greek except if you is used to translate the singular 2nd person pronoun and that does not happen in the KJV. But I can only lead a horse to water. I cannot force them to drink.

Writing his laws on the heart of a man is not building an entire kingdom within a man. A man can be in a kingdom but a kingdom cannot be in a man.

Edit: You say, "Christ builds His church from within us"

That is why you do not understand 1 Corinthians chapter 3. You think the wood, hey, and stubble refers to the quality of the wisdom the builder builds in himself. But Paul is talking about foolishly letting worldly wise men join the church as one preaches and helps to build it. In allowing such ones into the church they are in effect corrupting God's temple, which is the church. A temple is where people gather together with God. You cannot gather people inside you (using you as used in English) to commune with God. That is what the congregation is for.

If I were speaking as does the Greek and applying the same words as in the KJV, because I was addressing you as an individual I would have had to say, "Thou cannot gather people inside thee to commune with God."

Edit: Just so you can see that other translators know of what i am speaking:

Luke 17:
21 "And men will not say, See, it is here! or, There! for the kingdom of God is among you." (Bible in Basic English - BBE)
21 "no one will say,[a] ‘Look here!’ or ‘There!’ For you see, the kingdom of God is among you.” (Holman Christian Standard Bible - HCSB)
21 nor will people say, ‘Look! Here it is!’ or, ‘There it is!’ For the kingdom of God is among you [because of My presence].” (Amplified Bible - AMP)
21 no one will say,[a] ‘See here!’ or ‘There!’ For you see, the kingdom of God is in your midst.” (Christian Standard Bible - CSB)
21 Nor will people say, ‘Look, here it is!’ or ‘There it is!’ Don’t you see? God’s kingdom is already among you.” (Common English Bible - CEB)
21 nor will people be able to say, ‘Look! Here it is!’ or, ‘Over there!’ Because, you see, the Kingdom of God is among you.” (Complete Jewish Bible - CJB)
21 There is no use saying, ‘Look! Here it is' or ‘Look! There it is.’ God’s kingdom is here with you.” (Contemporary English Version - CEV)
21 nor shall they say, Lo here, or, Lo there; for behold, the kingdom of God is in the midst of you." (Darby Translation - DARBY)
21 People will not say, ‘Look, God’s kingdom is here!’ or ‘There it is!’ No, God’s kingdom is here with you." (Easy-to-Read Version - ERV)
21 nor will they say, ‘Look, here it is!’ or ‘There!’ for behold, the kingdom of God is in the midst of you.” (English Standard Version - ESV)
21 [a]and no one will announce, ‘Look, here it is,’ or, ‘There it is.’ For behold, the kingdom of God is among you.” (New American Bible (Revised Edition) (NABRE)
21 nor will they say, ‘Look, here it is!’ or, ‘There it is!’ For behold, the kingdom of God is [a]in your midst.” (New American Standard Bible (NASB)
21 People will not say, ‘Here it is.’ Or, ‘There it is.’ That’s because God’s kingdom is among you.” (New International Reader's Version (NIRV)
21 nor will they say, ‘Look, here it is!’ or ‘There it is!’ For, in fact, the kingdom of God is among[a] you.” (New Revised Standard Version (NRSV)
21 nor will they say, ‘Look, here it is!’ or ‘There it is!’ For, in fact, the kingdom of God is among[a] you.” (New Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition (NRSVCE)

The problem is they are not always consistent applying the translation rule in all texts. If they did, people would not have so many mistaken doctrines.

Hillsage · Dec 26, 2017

Buzz_B said:
I can understand and even sympathize with why you say that about Luke 17:21. But being educated in the Greek language I have no choice but to disagree with you. "You" is the plural "humon" meaning all are addressed as one, and in that verse "within" is "entos" which is correctly translated "within" or "inside". But in the Greek, what the kingdom of God is "within" is the plural "humon." While that plural human is composed of the individuals he is addressing the group rather than them individually. The kingdom of God was standing right there "within" or "inside" their group, that kingdom being represented by Christ himself as the king of that kingdom.

But if you prefer to let yourself continue on improperly using the plural 2nd person Greek pronouns, well, that is on you. "You" in English works differently than in Greek except if you is used to translate the singular 2nd person pronoun and that does not happen in the KJV. But I can only lead a horse to water. I cannot force them to drink.

Writing his laws on the heart of a man is not building an entire kingdom within a man. A man can be in a kingdom but a kingdom cannot be in a man.

Edit: You say, "Christ builds His church from within us"

That is why you do not understand 1 Corinthians chapter 3. You think the wood, hey, and stubble refers to the quality of the wisdom the builder builds in himself. But Paul is talking about foolishly letting worldly wise men join the church as one preaches and helps to build it. In allowing such ones into the church they are in effect corrupting God's temple, which is the church. A temple is where people gather together with God. You cannot gather people inside you (using you as used in English) to commune with God. That is what the congregation is for.

If I were speaking as does the Greek and applying the same words as in the KJV, because I was addressing you as an individual I would have had to say, "Thou cannot gather people inside thee to commune with God."

Edit: Just so you can see that other translators know of what i am speaking:

Luke 17:
21 "And men will not say, See, it is here! or, There! for the kingdom of God is among you." (Bible in Basic English - BBE)
21 "no one will say,[a] ‘Look here!’ or ‘There!’ For you see, the kingdom of God is among you.” (Holman Christian Standard Bible - HCSB)
21 nor will people say, ‘Look! Here it is!’ or, ‘There it is!’ For the kingdom of God is among you [because of My presence].” (Amplified Bible - AMP)
21 no one will say,[a] ‘See here!’ or ‘There!’ For you see, the kingdom of God is in your midst.” (Christian Standard Bible - CSB)
21 Nor will people say, ‘Look, here it is!’ or ‘There it is!’ Don’t you see? God’s kingdom is already among you.” (Common English Bible - CEB)
21 nor will people be able to say, ‘Look! Here it is!’ or, ‘Over there!’ Because, you see, the Kingdom of God is among you.” (Complete Jewish Bible - CJB)
21 There is no use saying, ‘Look! Here it is' or ‘Look! There it is.’ God’s kingdom is here with you.” (Contemporary English Version - CEV)
21 nor shall they say, Lo here, or, Lo there; for behold, the kingdom of God is in the midst of you." (Darby Translation - DARBY)
21 People will not say, ‘Look, God’s kingdom is here!’ or ‘There it is!’ No, God’s kingdom is here with you." (Easy-to-Read Version - ERV)
21 nor will they say, ‘Look, here it is!’ or ‘There!’ for behold, the kingdom of God is in the midst of you.” (English Standard Version - ESV)
21 [a]and no one will announce, ‘Look, here it is,’ or, ‘There it is.’ For behold, the kingdom of God is among you.” (New American Bible (Revised Edition) (NABRE)
21 nor will they say, ‘Look, here it is!’ or, ‘There it is!’ For behold, the kingdom of God is [a]in your midst.” (New American Standard Bible (NASB)
21 People will not say, ‘Here it is.’ Or, ‘There it is.’ That’s because God’s kingdom is among you.” (New International Reader's Version (NIRV)
21 nor will they say, ‘Look, here it is!’ or ‘There it is!’ For, in fact, the kingdom of God is among[a] you.” (New Revised Standard Version (NRSV)
21 nor will they say, ‘Look, here it is!’ or ‘There it is!’ For, in fact, the kingdom of God is among[a] you.” (New Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition (NRSVCE)

The problem is they are not always consistent applying the translation rule in all texts. If they did, people would not have so many mistaken doctrines.

I have a favored verse concerning this issue.

1CO 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

This verse led me to come up with a screen saver that I made long ago. It said;
"God reigns through the heart that submits to Him and He rules over the heart that rebels against Him."

I know that the word kingdom is a compound word coming from the words 'kings' 'domain'. I've always been of the persuasion that God can only make us "kings and priests" or as some translations say "a kingdom of priests" when He is reigning through us with yielded hearts....like Jesus had on earth, when his heart was submitted fully to the Father.

I also think there is a reigning in 'the kingdoms of the world', of which the devil is "the god of this world". And indeed that was the devil's temptation to Jesus, that he would give Him

MAT 4:8 Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;
9 And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me.

What are your thoughts, on my thinking here?

PS. As to the 'plurality' of YOU being a group of people???? Would it be wrong to liken it to the plurality of triune man that I am as an individual. Just like when Jesus spoke to 'Peter/Peter', an individual, and said;

Luke 22:31 And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have YOU, that he may sift YOU as wheat:

Buzz_B · Dec 26, 2017

Hillsage said:
I have a favored verse concerning this issue.

1CO 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

This verse led me to come up with a screen saver that I made long ago. It said;
"God reigns through the heart that submits to Him and He rules over the heart that rebels against Him."

I know that the word kingdom is a compound word coming from the words 'kings' 'domain'. I've always been of the persuasion that God can only make us "kings and priests" or as some translations say "a kingdom of priests" when He is reigning through us with yielded hearts....like Jesus had on earth, when his heart was submitted fully to the Father.

I also think there is a reigning in 'the kingdoms of the world', of which the devil is "the god of this world". And indeed that was the devil's temptation to Jesus, that he would give Him

MAT 4:8 Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;
9 And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me.

What are your thoughts, on my thinking here?

I agree with your thinking in this post so long as we realize that it is not possible by our lone self to be a kingdom. That God does indeed, quote, ""God reigns through the heart that submits to Him and He rules over the heart that rebels against Him", makes able to be a part of his kingdom. That is like no one is really a Brit if their heart is not a Brit, or American or whatever citizenship one wishes to name. No man is much of anything unless his heart is in it. I can take marriage vows but am I married if my heart was never in those vows? Can I fool God? If God knew my heart was not in those vows will he bless it as a marriage? I say no. He will see me as committing fornication.

Edit: I should add, at Luke 17:21 we must bear in mind that Jesus spoke that to the Pharisees whom he later said were of wicked hearts. So Jesus could not have been telling them that the kingdom of God was in their individual hearts. true to the use of the Greek plural 2nd person pronoun, "humon", he meant it was right there in their presence but they were rejecting its king.

SBC · Dec 27, 2017

OP ---> State OF THE DEAD

THE DEAD are ~
The those SEPARATED FROM GOD...

It is the physically living, the physically dead, (MANKIND) AND the angels (spirits)....WHO ARE "spiritually" NOT WITH GOD, who are DEAD TO GOD.

God has a Way for man to Become Spiritually Alive IN and WITH God Forever.

A physically dead body that is Saved and justified to be raised, knows nothing while it is physically dead.

God Bless
SBC

Hillsage · Dec 27, 2017

SBC said:
A physically dead body that is Saved and justified to be raised, knows nothing while it is physically dead.

God Bless
SBC

Bodies aren't' justified, spirits are. Bodies are glorified. And it was to spirits that Jesus preached, during the time His dead body lay in the grave waiting to be resurrected/glorified on the third day.

SBC · Dec 27, 2017

Hillsage said:
Bodies aren't' justified, spirits are. Bodies are glorified. And it was to spirits that Jesus preached, during the time His dead body lay in the grave waiting to be resurrected/glorified on the third day.

The Whole of a Man washed in the Blood of Jesus IS justified...body, soul, spirit.

Meaning it is JUST for the Lord to therefor Restore, Quicken, Change...Every Part of the Whole of man.

God Bless,
SBC

Hillsage · Dec 27, 2017

SBC said:
The Whole of a Man washed in the Blood of Jesus IS justified...body, soul, spirit.

Meaning it is JUST for the Lord to therefor Restore, Quicken, Change...Every Part of the Whole of man.

God Bless,
SBC

Still big on your opinion. I can't take that to the throne. My opinion is different.
Your spirit is justified (declared righteous), your soul is sanctified (imparted righteousness), and your body is glorified (manifest righteousness).

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