Does Israel get taken over again?

A71

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Fantastic to see how much consensus there is JGR. Matthew Henry even recognizes that the last week of Daniel is the Roman Judean war. The Victorians really knew their bible.

There was an incident prior to the war where a standard was set up in Caesarea, causing the Rabbis to revolt and protest to Herod.
 
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A71

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Matthew 24 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple. 2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

Bizarre misreading of the text. The disciples point to the Temple Complex, and Jesus says it will all be turned to rubble. Why is this so difficult to grasp?
Re the Roman wall, It was added by the Romans, either during or after the siege.
 
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jgr

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All three dialogues (Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21) are parallel, and are commonly called the Olivet Discourse.

But note that none of the dialogues' references to the destruction of the Temple was fulfilled in 70 AD.

For example, the end of the 2nd Jewish temple building (also called Herod's temple building) in Jerusalem in 70 AD didn't fulfill Matthew 24:2. For the stones of the 2nd temple's Wailing Wall (also called the Western Wall) still stand today one on top of the other, just as they did when Jesus Christ spoke that prophecy. Matthew 24:2 included the Wailing Wall, for Matthew 24:2 wasn't referring only to the single, 2nd temple building which stood in the center of the Temple Mount and which contained the holy place and the most holy place, but was referring to "all these things", all the plural "buildings"/structures/oikodome (G3619) of the entire 2nd temple complex (Matthew 24:1). Indeed, Matthew 24:2 could even have been spoken just to the north and west of the Wailing Wall. For it was spoken right after Jesus had departed from the temple complex (Matthew 24:1). And one of the main temple-complex exits (called Wilson's Arch and bridge by archaeologists) was just to the north of the Wailing Wall and at the same level as the top of the Temple Mount (see the temple-complex map-insert in the December, 2008 issue of National Geographic magazine).

Also, in Matthew 24:2, the "here" can include not just the entire 2nd temple complex, but every structure throughout Jerusalem. For the similar statement in Luke 19:44 applied to the whole city (Luke 19:41-44). Matthew 24:2 and Luke 19:44 could be fulfilled at the very end of the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, right before and at Jesus Christ's Second Coming (Zechariah 14:2-21, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).
Disproven by stronger evidence.

7 seals of Revelation - Bible study LIVE


The three gospels are in harmony.
Historical eyewitness testimony is in harmony.
Historical scholarly commentary is in harmony.
Archaeological evidence is in harmony.

Futurized fantasy emits another sour note.
 
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jgr said in post #143:

Futurized fantasy . . .

Note that Christian Futurism is not based upon fantasy, but upon the Bible.

For example, just as the highly detailed Tribulation events of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 have never been fulfilled, so the Tribulation events of Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21 have never been fulfilled. For example, Luke 21:24 refers to the same, future treading down of Jerusalem by the Gentiles as Revelation 11:2b, during the future Antichrist's literal, 42-month worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-18), the details of which time period are shown from 4 different angles in Revelation chapters 11 to 14 (Revelation 11:2b-3, Revelation 12:6,14, Revelation 13:5,7, Revelation 14:9-13). The myriad details of these chapters have never been fulfilled. Similarly, Jesus Christ's Second Coming and the Church's gathering together (rapture) in Matthew 24:30-31 (2 Thessalonians 2:1-8; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17) have never been fulfilled, but must occur "immediately after" the future Tribulation of Matthew 24, Mark 13, Luke 21, and Revelation chapters 6 to 18 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:2 to 20:6).

jgr said in post #143:

Futurized fantasy emits another sour note.

Note that Christian Futurism is sour only to those alternate views which try to avoid having to think about the future Tribulation.

That is, preterism (whether full or partial), as well as historicism (in its various modern forms), and pre-tribulation rapturism, symbolicism and spiritualism, could all be animated by the same spirit of fear: that the Church alive today throughout the world would otherwise have to physically suffer through the future, almost-entirely literal, worldwide Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24. For these 5 views of preterism, historicism, pre-tribulation rapturism, symbolicism and spiritualism, in their different ways, each gives a mistaken assurance to the Church alive today that it won't have to physically suffer through the Tribulation.

Preterism says the Tribulation happened in 70 AD (or a few years before and including 70 AD). Historicism says it happened over a long period in history, such as during the rise and height of the RCC's power in Europe during the Middle Ages and after, or during the rise and spread of Islam in the Middle East and elsewhere during the Middle Ages and after. Pre-tribulation rapturism says Jesus Christ will return and rapture the Church into the 3rd heaven before the Tribulation. Symbolicism says the Tribulation is only symbolic of theological themes which Christians have always had to struggle with (e.g. Matthew 6:24), and is symbolic of only-local physical persecutions which some Christians have always had to face, and are still facing today in some places. And spiritualism says the Tribulation is only spiritual events which go on only within the hearts of individuals.

But when the almost-entirely literal, worldwide Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 begins in our future, the shaky doctrinal wall which (in their different ways) these 5 views have each tried to build up between the Church and the Tribulation, will be completely shattered (Ezekiel 13:10-12) as the Church worldwide begins to physically suffer through the Tribulation (Matthew 24:9-31, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6). These 5 views may have left some Christians unprepared mentally to undergo this physical suffering, to where these 5 views could even contribute to some Christians ultimately losing their salvation because of committing apostasy (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6; 2 Timothy 2:12) during the Tribulation, when they will become "offended" that God is letting them and their little ones physically suffer through it (Matthew 24:9-12, Matthew 13:21, Isaiah 8:21-22, Luke 8:13).

Even though the Church today throughout the world will have to physically suffer through the future Tribulation, the Church need not fear this (cf. 1 Peter 4:12-13, Revelation 2:10). For even though many Christians will suffer and die during that time (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13), this will be to their gain, as it will bring their still-conscious souls into heaven to be with Jesus Christ (Philippians 1:21,23; 2 Corinthians 5:8; see also 2 Corinthians 4:17-18; 2 Timothy 2:12), and it won't rob them of the blessed hope (Titus 2:13) of obtaining eternal life (Titus 1:2, Titus 3:7) in an immortal, physical resurrection body (Romans 8:23-25, Philippians 3:21, Luke 24:39) at Jesus Christ's Second Coming (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6), which will occur immediately after the future Tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).
 
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A71

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I am a Historicist and I believe the great suffering spoken of by Jesus in the Temple prophecies occured between AD67-73. The point is I have no problem or hang-ups about accepting a fulfilled prophecy. It does not shake my world up, far from it, it is a total validation of Scripture and God's Word that is an incredible reassurance and blessing to me. Understanding prophecy fulfilled has taken me to a place of total harmony and peace.

Immediately after the tribulation of AD73, what happened?

29......shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

First of all what was left of apostate Israel was cursed and decovenanted. Jesus was making a reference here to a specific prophecy in Ezekiel. See if you can find it.

Then the sign of Jesus reigning in heaven appeared....aka the Book of Revelation. And there you go, the above two events are both on a roughly two thousand year timeline, but this is not made explicit, because Jesus wanted the Church to ingest imminency for its own good.

And then, and only then, can we start talking about Jesus returning...
 
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jgr

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Note that Christian Futurism is not based upon fantasy, but upon the Bible.

Not upon the Bible these brethren were using. Yours must be different from theirs.

Note that Christian Futurism is sour only to those alternate views which try to avoid having to think about the future Tribulation.

Jesus specifically counselled against such thinking:
"Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof." (Matthew 6:34)

That is, preterism (whether full or partial), as well as historicism (in its various modern forms), and pre-tribulation rapturism, symbolicism and spiritualism, could all be animated by the same spirit of fear that the Church alive today throughout the world would otherwise have to physically suffer through the future, almost-entirely literal, worldwide Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24.

True historicism has no "modern forms". That is reserved for futurism, with its roots in the Roman counter-reformation, and its incessant dispensational proclamation today.

I couldn't suppress a chuckle. There is none with greater understanding and appreciation of the tribulations which have characterized the historic faith and sacrifice of the saints, than the historicist, and those with similar understanding and appreciation. This is in stark contrast to the futurist's disdain and dismissal of history, as expressed by its modern disciple John Nelson Darby:

"I do not admit history to be, in any sense, necessary to the understanding of prophecy."
John Nelson Darby, 1839

The expression “the great tribulation”, referring to a singular specific event, is found nowhere in Scripture.

The expression “great tribulation”, referring to conditions or experiences, is found in three places:

Matthew 24:21
For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Anyone who reads Josephus objectively cannot but agree that “great tribulation” is an accurate description of the conditions accompanying the judgment and destruction in Jerusalem and Judea.

Revelation 2:22
Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.

A warning to the Thyatiran church.

Revelation 7:14
And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

A tribute to the prior sufferings of the saints, as they receive their eternal reward.


The majority of all other scriptural references to tribulation describe it as a frequently continual or recurring condition common to the saints, to be recognized for the spiritual growth which can often result from it e.g.:

John 16:33
These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

Acts 14:22
Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.

Romans 5:3
And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;

2 Corinthians 7:4
Great is my boldness of speech toward you, great is my glorying of you: I am filled with comfort, I am exceeding joyful in all our tribulation.


And that's the scriptural story of tribulation.
 
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A71 said in post #145:

Immediately after the tribulation of AD73, what happened?

29......shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

First of all what was left of apostate Israel was cursed and decovenanted.

Note that Matthew 24:29 can refer literally to clouds blocking the light from the sun and moon. And it can refer to what we still today call "falling stars", that is, meteors, but ones which will also be meteorites, that is, ones which will pass through the clouds and be seen before they land on the earth. So "heaven" in Matthew 24:29-31 can mean the 1st heaven, the sky/atmosphere. Also, "the powers of the heavens" which will be shaken can refer to the literal, fallen-angelic "powers" who currently rule the unsaved world from high above the earth (Ephesians 6:12, Ephesians 2:2).

A71 said in post #145:

Then the sign of Jesus reigning in heaven appeared....aka the Book of Revelation.

Matthew 24:30 refers to Jesus Christ's future, Second Coming, when He will appear in the clouds: "they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory" (Matthew 24:30). And this won't occur until immediately after the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6). Matthew 24:30 will occur at the same time as the future Matthew 24:29 and Matthew 24:31.

The "sign of the Son of man" (Matthew 24:30a), if it isn't the sign of the Cross, can be the appearance of Jesus Christ (Luke 11:29-30) in the sky at His future, Second Coming, when "they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory" (Matthew 24:30b). Before He lands on the earth (Zechariah 14:4, Acts 1:11-12), He could circle the globe in the sky so that everyone will be able to see His Second Coming with their own eyes, as Revelation 1:7 and Matthew 24:27,30b require. Or, most people could see His Second Coming via a live, breaking-news video feed to their smartphone, computer, or television. This is also the whole point of Matthew 24:23-31: If Jesus Christ's Second Coming isn't obvious to everyone at the same time, then it isn't really Jesus Christ. Another test is that the Church's physical resurrection, and then its gathering together (rapture up) to hold a meeting in the sky with the returned Jesus, have to occur at the Second Coming of the real Jesus Christ (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:30-31; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).
 
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jgr said in post #146:

Not upon the Bible these brethren were using. Yours must be different from theirs.

No, it is the same Bible, the details of which show that the Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 has never been fulfilled.

For some examples, the Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, which Jesus Christ will return immediately after (Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6), hasn't started yet. For it will begin with a horrible war, which, with its aftermath of famines and epidemics, will end up killing 1/4 of the world (Revelation 6:4-8). The "great sword" of this war (Revelation 6:4) could be Israel's nuclear weapons. After this war, there will be a terrible series of natural disasters historically unprecedented in their magnitude, such as a gigantic volcanic eruption (Revelation 6:12-14), possibly of the Yellowstone Caldera, and then the collapse into the ocean of another erupting volcano (Revelation 8:8-9), possibly one of the Canary Islands, the collapse of which could create a huge tsunami which could destroy the eastern seaboard of the U.S.

If such a tsunami occurs, it could also cause a string of awful, Fukushima-type, nuclear-meltdown radiation disasters in the nuclear power plants and their nuclear-waste storage facilities all along the eastern seaboard of the U.S. These facilities all together are holding tens of thousands of tons of nuclear waste. Also, if the tsunami breaks open the germ-containment structures on Plum Island, just off the coast of Connecticut, especially-deadly viruses and bacteria could be washed inland and spread across the U.S. and Canada as they infect animals and people.

After the volcanic activity and possible tsunami, a comet will strike the earth (Revelation 8:10-11), possibly in the U.S. and Canadian Great Lakes region. As the comet falls from the sky, it will look like a great star, or like a burning lamp in the sky (Revelation 8:10). It will strike a region of the earth which contains 1/3 of the world's fresh surface water (Revelation 8:10b), and it will contain some poisonous element which will poison that water so many who drink from it will die (Revelation 8:11b).

Sometime after that, weird locust-like beings will swarm up from the Bottomless Pit of the earth to torment mankind with excruciating stings for 5 months (Revelation 9:2-10). The world could see them as "aliens" who had been hibernating for thousands of years in a cavern deep underground. The locust-like beings won't kill anyone, but they will make those they sting want to die, the pain will be so bad (Revelation 9:5-6).

After that, an army of 200 million weird horse-like beings and their (possibly unclean spirit) riders will come upon the earth (Revelation 9:16-19). If they descend from the sky in spaceships, the world could see them as aliens. But they and the future Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") could (falsely) say they're YHWH God's main army. In fact, they could be loyal to Lucifer (Satan, the dragon, Revelation 12:9). The 4 fallen angels now bound at the Euphrates who will lead this army (Revelation 9:14-16) could employ it to make mankind completely desperate before its takeover by Lucifer and the Antichrist mid-tribulation (Revelation 12:9 to 13:18). For when this army starts killing 1/3 of mankind (Revelation 9:16-19), then could also begin one of the biggest deceptions ever wrought on humanity. For the Antichrist -- who by that time could have managed to have been elected as the President of a Mediterranean Union formed by the joining of the European Union with an Arab Union stretching from Oman to Morocco -- could announce to the world that he has sent a mental distress call to (what he could call) "My Father, our Lord Lucifer, to come with his legions of angels, and rescue mankind from this murderous army of YHWH".

(And all of this will be part of only the 1st half of the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24.)

It's at this point that Lucifer and his fallen angels could be cast down out of heaven to the earth permanently after losing a mid-tribulation war in heaven (Revelation 12:7-9). But instead of coming down as a defeated force, they could descend for all the world to see in gigantic, magnificent golden spaceships onto the "Champ de Mars", Mars being the same as Marduk the dragon, the chief god of ancient Babylon. The "Champ de Mars" is the large open area in front of the Eiffel Tower in Paris. After landing there, Lucifer, a literal, 7-headed, red dragon (Revelation 12:3,9), could emerge in great splendor and command his angels to capture the army of 200 million weird horse-like beings and their (possibly unclean spirit) riders, who could then pretend to defect from serving YHWH to serving Lucifer. Lucifer could then confirm that he came to rescue mankind because the Antichrist, whom he could say is his only-begotten Son, called upon him (like in an Antichrist counterfeit of Matthew 26:53). Lucifer and the Antichrist could then be received wholeheartedly by the unsaved world as the saviors of mankind. And the unsaved world could be left thinking (mistakenly) that Lucifer and his angels were more powerful than even YHWH God's main army.

Lucifer and the Antichrist, along with the Antichrist's miracle-working False Prophet, will then deceive the world into actually worshipping Lucifer and the Antichrist and a speaking (possibly an android) image of the Antichrist (Revelation 13:4-16, Revelation 19:20; 2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36). And everyone will be made to receive a (possibly scarification) mark of the Antichrist either on their right hand or forehead, consisting of either the Antichrist's name or some representation of the gematrial number of his name (666) (Revelation 13:16-18). After Lucifer and the Antichrist have ruled the world for 3.5 literal years (Revelation 13:4-18), YHWH will send 7 vials of wrath against the unsaved world (Revelation 16).

Near the end of these 7 vials, unclean spirits like frogs will come out of the mouths of Lucifer, the Antichrist and the False Prophet (Revelation 16:13). And these unclean spirits like frogs will go forth and perform amazing miracles to convince the world's armies to gather together at Armageddon (Har Megiddo: Mount Megiddo in northern Israel) (Revelation 16:16) to battle against YHWH Himself (Revelation 16:14, Revelation 19:19). After gathering together at Armageddon as a staging area, the world's armies will travel south and pillage Jerusalem, right before Jesus Christ (who is YHWH: John 10:30) returns from heaven and defeats them completely (Revelation 19:11 to 20:6, Zechariah 14:2-21).

When Jesus Christ returns, immediately after the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Revelation 19:7-21, Matthew 24:29-31), He will descend physically from heaven on a white horse (Revelation 19:7-21; 1 Thessalonians 4:16, Zechariah 14:3-4, Acts 1:11-12) with all the holy angels (Matthew 25:31; 2 Thessalonians 1:7) for all the world to see (Matthew 24:27,30, Revelation 1:7). Then the Church will be physically resurrected (if dead) or changed (if alive) into immortal physical bodies (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53; 1 Thessalonians 4:16, Revelation 20:4-6) and caught up together/gathered together (raptured) (Matthew 24:31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1) as high as the clouds of the sky to hold a meeting in the air with Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:17).

At that meeting, Jesus will judge the Church (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27; 2 Corinthians 5:10, Luke 12:45-48) and marry its obedient part (Revelation 19:7-8, Matthew 25:1-12) in the clouds, before it mounts white horses and comes back down from sky (the 1st heaven) with Jesus (Revelation 19:14) as He defeats the world's armies (Revelation 19:19,21), and the Antichrist and False Prophet (Revelation 19:20), and has Lucifer (Satan) bound in the Bottomless Pit for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:1-3), a time period commonly called the Millennium.

At Jesus Christ's return, He will also make the marriage supper of Revelation 19:9 for the obedient part of the Church in the earthly Jerusalem (Isaiah 25:6-9; 1 Corinthians 15:54), while the birds will feast on the corpses of the world's defeated armies (Revelation 19:17-18). Then Jesus and the obedient part of the Church will rule the surviving nations with a rod of iron during the Millennium (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29, Psalms 2). After the Millennium, Lucifer will be released from the Bottomless Pit and bring about the Gog/Magog rebellion, only to be defeated for the last time (Revelation 20:7-10, Ezekiel chapters 38-39).

At least 7 years after that defeat (Ezekiel 39:9b), the Great White Throne Judgment will occur, in which all people who hadn't been resurrected and judged at Jesus Christ's return will be resurrected and judged (Revelation 20:11-15). Then God will create a New Heaven (a new 1st heaven: a new sky/atmosphere for the earth) and a New Earth (a new surface for the earth) (Revelation 21:1; 2 Peter 3:10b,13). Then God the Father will descend from the 3rd heaven in the literal city of New Jerusalem (Revelation 21:2), the Father's house (John 14:2, Revelation 21:3), and He will dwell on the earth with Jesus and the Church (Revelation 21:3).

In one area outside the walls of New Jerusalem on the New Earth will be the lake of fire (Revelation 22:15, Revelation 21:8), in which all of unsaved humanity will suffer forever in fire and brimstone with Lucifer and his fallen angels (Revelation 20:10,15, Matthew 25:41,46).

jgr said in post #146:

Jesus specifically counselled against such thinking:
"Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof." (Matthew 6:34)

Note that in Matthew 6:34, the original Greek word (G3309) translated as "take no thought" about tomorrow means "don't be anxious" about tomorrow, just as Philippians 4:6 uses the same Greek word to mean don't be anxious about anything.

Matthew 6:34 doesn't mean that Christians should never read or study Bible prophecy which hasn't been fulfilled yet. Instead, Christians are to "take heed" (Mark 13:23) to all of it.

Bible prophecy isn't missing any information, insofar as in it, Jesus Christ has told Christians everything that they need to know in order not to be deceived by anything that is coming: "take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things" (Mark 13:23). "Take heed lest any man deceive you" (Mark 13:5).

The main reason the Bible gives clear warning ahead of time about everything Christians alive at the time of the Tribulation will have to face (Mark 13:23, Revelation chapters 6 to 18, Revelation 1:1, Revelation 22:16), before Jesus Christ returns immediately after the Tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6), is so Christians can be better prepared mentally not to be blindsided (1 Peter 4:12-13) or deceived by anything that's coming (Matthew 24:4-5,23-25, Revelation 13:13-18, Revelation 19:20), and so they can be better prepared mentally to endure the future Tribulation with patience and faith to the end (Matthew 24:9-13, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6), and not commit apostasy during the Tribulation (Isaiah 8:21-22, Matthew 24:9-13, Matthew 13:21), to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6; 2 Timothy 2:12).

jgr said in post #146:

That is reserved for futurism, with its roots in the Roman counter-reformation, and its incessant dispensational proclamation today.

Note that the roots of Christian Futurism are the Bible itself.

Also, Christian Futurism per se should be distinguished from Dispensationalism.

For Christian Futurism per se is correct, because the Tribulation and subsequent Second-Coming prophecies of Revelation chapters 6 to 19 and Matthew 24 haven't yet been fulfilled, just as the prophecies of the subsequent Millennium (e.g. Revelation 20:4-6 and Zechariah 14) haven't yet been fulfilled.

But Dispensationalism is mistaken because it sets up a mutual exclusiveness between the Church and Israel.

Also, Dispensationalism is mistaken because it teaches a pre-tribulation rapture.

jgr said in post #146:

The expression “the great tribulation”, referring to a singular specific event, is found nowhere in Scripture.

What is meant by "the great tribulation" is that future Tribulation which will occur immediately before Jesus Christ's future, Second Coming:

Matthew 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
 
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No, it is the same Bible, the details of which show that the Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 has never been fulfilled.

Can't possibly be the same Bible. The brethren's Matthew 24 (and mine) differ from yours by over 1900 years, and counting.
Perhaps you can cite some other historical brethren whose Matthew 24 is the same as yours.

Matthew 6:34 doesn't mean that Christians should never read or study Bible prophecy which hasn't been fulfilled yet. Instead, Christians are to "take heed" (Mark 13:23) to all of it.

Bible prophecy isn't missing any information, insofar as in it, Jesus Christ has told Christians everything that they need to know in order not to be deceived by anything that is coming: "take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things" (Mark 13:23). "Take heed lest any man deceive you" (Mark 13:5).

Matthew 6:34 means that we shouldn't worry about anything in the future, but rather focus on how we can benefit spiritually in current tribulation.

Mark 13 is the third gospel whose content is in historical harmony with that of Matthew 24 and Luke 21. The brethren I've cited on Matthew 24 would agree.

Also, Christian Futurism per se should be distinguished from Dispensationalism.

Every dispensationalist is of necessity a futurist to sustain the errant doctrine.
I would presume that, conversely, the vast majority of futurists agree with most of the other dispensational doctrines. If you have evidence otherwise, I'd be interested to see it.

What is meant by "the great tribulation" is that future Tribulation which will occur immediately before Jesus Christ's future, Second Coming:

Matthew 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Confirming my previous posts, the expression "the great tribulation" does not occur in Matthew 24 or anywhere else in Scripture.
 
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jgr said in post #149:

The brethren's Matthew 24 (and mine) differ from yours by over 1900 years, and counting.

Note that Matthew 24 doesn't differ in any Bible to the extent of requiring a preterist position.

But Matthew 24 does require a futurist position, because the tribulation which it refers to cannot occur until immediately before Jesus Christ's future, Second Coming (Matthew 24:29-31).

-

Preterists sometimes claim that Matthew 24:34 requires a preterist position.

Nut note that Matthew 24:34 refers to the fulfillment of "all these things", all the events of the future Tribulation, and Jesus Christ's Second Coming and the gathering together (rapture) of the Church "immediately after" the Tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31; cf. 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17, Revelation 19:2 to 20:6), which events Jesus had just finished describing in Matthew 24:2-31, and which He would later show in great detail in Revelation chapters 6 to 19. Matthew 24:34 didn't mean that the Tribulation, Second Coming, and rapture would be fulfilled during the temporal generation alive at the time of Jesus' 1st coming in the 1st century AD. For none of those things was fulfilled during that temporal generation.

Instead, Matthew 24:34 could mean that the temporal generation which would see the 1948 AD reestablishment of Israel, which could be symbolized by the rebudding of the fig tree (Matthew 24:32-34; cf. Matthew 21:19,43, Hosea 9:10, Joel 1:6-7, Luke 13:6-9), won't pass, that is, won't die off completely, until the future Tribulation and Second Coming of Matthew 24 and Revelation chapters 6 to 19 are fulfilled. A temporal generation may not pass until 70 or 80 years (Psalms 90:10), or 120 years (Genesis 6:3).

This doesn't require that Jesus Christ's future, Second Coming will occur right before, like one year before, that generation will pass: that is, 69, or 79, or 119 years after 1948: in 2017, 2027, or 2067. And if the Tribulation which will immediately precede the Second Coming and rapture (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6) will last 7 years (Daniel 9:27), the Tribulation's 1st year didn't have to be in 2011, and won't have to be in 2021, or 2061, but could be in a future year (e.g. 2020) earlier than 2021.

Matthew 24:34 could also include the meaning that the figurative, all-times generation of the elect (Matthew 24:22, Luke 16:8b; 1 Peter 2:9, Colossians 3:12; 1 Thessalonians 1:4) won't pass away from the earth during the future Tribulation of Matthew 24 and Revelation chapters 6 to 18, but that some of the elect will survive (Matthew 24:22) until Jesus Christ's Second Coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53), immediately after the Tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

jgr said in post #149:

Mark 13 is the third gospel whose content is in historical harmony with that of Matthew 24 and Luke 21.

Note that it can be in future harmony, with regard even to you and me on an individual basis.

That is, read Mark 13:9-13 as possibly applicable to you as a Biblical Christian. For in our future, "political correctness" could make even Biblical Christianity "hate speech", because the Bible says that homosexuality is a sin (Romans 1:26-27), and that Christianity is the only way to be saved (John 14:6, John 3:36, Acts 4:12), and that all other religions are cursed, doubly cursed (Galatians 1:8-9).

Be prepared to be arrested and tried before courts of law for the violation of "hate speech" laws which could be instituted in our future (by the Supreme Court, without any approval from the People in Congress). If you are brought to trial, remember Mark 13:9-13, and testify as God's Holy Spirit gives you at that time. But don't expect to be set free after your testimony. You (just as I) must be willing to face imprisonment and even execution for the truths of Jesus Christ and His Word the Holy Bible (Matthew 24:9-13, Mark 8:34-38, John 8:31b).

jgr said in post #149:

I would presume that, conversely, the vast majority of futurists agree with most of the other dispensational doctrines.

Note that even if they do, this still doesn't equate Christian Futurism per se with Dispensationalism.

jgr said in post #149:

Confirming my previous posts, the expression "the great tribulation" does not occur in Matthew 24 or anywhere else in Scripture.

Note that it doesn't matter, because the "great tribulation" in Matthew 24:21 is the same, future "tribulation" which will occur immediately before Jesus Christ's future, Second Coming (Matthew 24:29-31).
 
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Note that Matthew 24 doesn't differ in any Bible to the extent of requiring a preterist position.

But Matthew 24 does require a futurist position, because the tribulation which it refers to cannot occur until immediately before Jesus Christ's future, Second Coming (Matthew 24:29-31).

-

Preterists sometimes claim that Matthew 24:34 requires a preterist position.

The only logical and defensible "required position" is one which is the most consistent with the available evidence.

The cited brethren unanimously conclude that the required position which is the most consistent with the available evidence is that of historical fulfillment rather than futurized fulfillment.

These brethren represent the prevailing view of the historical true Christian Church until the 19th century.

I concur with their conclusion.
 
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Note that Matthew 24 doesn't differ in any Bible to the extent of requiring a preterist position.

But Matthew 24 does require a futurist position, because the tribulation which it refers to cannot occur until immediately before Jesus Christ's future, Second Coming (Matthew 24:29-31).
.
The core error here is that you are transposing the use of the word "immediately". What occurs immediately, i.e. Without any temporal delay, is the transition from the end of great suffering to the celestial bodies being affected.

Nowhere does Matthew say that the great suffering occurs immediately before Christ's return; you have made this up.

Also you are misusing the term Futurist. I believe Christ will return in the future, but this does not make me a Futurist. Futurism is the belief in a 7 year future tribulation, and all the concomitant exegetical gymnastics that come with such a fallacious idea. Proof of this will come in your sprawling reply, which will gloss over my point, and then dribble on interminably into the field of speculative wish wash.
 
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The core error here is that you are transposing the use of the word "immediately". What occurs immediately, i.e. Without any temporal delay, is the transition from the end of great suffering to the celestial bodies being affected.

Nowhere does Matthew say that the great suffering occurs immediately before Christ's return; you have made this up.

Also you are misusing the term Futurist. I believe Christ will return in the future, but this does not make me a Futurist. Futurism is the belief in a 7 year future tribulation, and all the concomitant exegetical gymnastics that come with such a fallacious idea. Proof of this will come in your sprawling reply, which will gloss over my point, and then dribble on interminably into the field of speculative wish wash.
Thanks for the chuckle du jour, brother.
 
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jgr said in post #151:

The only logical and defensible "required position" is one which is the most consistent with the available evidence.

That's right.

But note that the primary available evidence is what Matthew 24 itself says. And it says that the tribulation it refers to will not occur until immediately prior to Jesus Christ's future, Second Coming (Matthew 24:29-31).
 
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A71 said in post #152:

What occurs immediately, i.e. Without any temporal delay, is the transition from the end of great suffering to the celestial bodies being affected.

That's right.

But note that Matthew 24:29 is when the Second Coming will occur (Matthew 24:30).
 
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That's right.

But note that the primary available evidence is what Matthew 24 itself says. And it says that the tribulation it refers to will not occur until immediately prior to Jesus Christ's future, Second Coming (Matthew 24:29-31).
That's certainly an innovative definition of the word "evidence".
Here's the definition in law from Duhaime's Law Dictionary:
Proof of fact(s) presented at a judicial hearing such as a trial.

The proof of something which it is claimed has never occurred does not exist.
The facts about something which it is claimed has never occurred do not exist.

My brother has been a judge for over 30 years. Suppose I presented him with this statement:

"Your Honor, I believe that Matthew 24 has never occurred, but I believe that it will occur based on the evidence in...Matthew 24"

I would be granted an expedited departure from his courtroom.

You would be too.
 
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jgr said in post #158:

The proof of something which it is claimed has never occurred does not exist.

Note that it does, if one has faith. For:

Hebrews 11:1 . . . faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

For example, even though the Second Coming has never occurred, the proof for Christians that the Second Coming will occur in our future is in Matthew 24:30.

And Matthew 24:29-31 proves that the future, Second Coming will be immediately preceded by the future Tribulation described in Matthew 24.
 
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Note that it does, if one has faith. For:

Hebrews 11:1 . . . faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

For example, even though the Second Coming has never occurred, the proof for Christians that the Second Coming will occur in our future is in Matthew 24:30.

And Matthew 24:29-31 proves that the future, Second Coming will be immediately preceded by the future Tribulation described in Matthew 24.

Our cited brethren were and are recognized men of faith. They had faith in the evidence that Matthew 24 was fulfilled.

Faith in evidence is superior to faith in fantasy.
 
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