how do people who believe in eternal torture in fire

AACJ · Dec 21, 2017

mkgal1 said:
I agree.....although we may differ on what "atoning" means. I believe it to mean "at-one-ment".

------>Franciscan teacher, Blessed John Duns Scotus (c. 1266-1308), who founded the theological chair at Oxford, said that Jesus wasn’t solving any problems by coming to earth and dying. Jesus wasn’t changing God’s mind about us; rather, Jesus was changing our minds about God. That, in a word, was our nonviolent at-one-ment theory. God did not need Jesus to die on the cross to decide to love humanity. God’s love was infinite from the first moment of creation; the cross was just Love’s dramatic portrayal in space and time.

Scotus built his argument on the pre-existent Cosmic Christ described in Colossians and Ephesians. Jesus is “the image of the invisible God” (Colossians 1:15) who came forward in a moment of time so we could look upon “the One we had pierced” (John 19:37) and see God’s unconditional love for us, in spite of our failings.

The image of the cross was to change humanity, not a necessary transaction to change God—as if God needed changing! Scotus concluded that Jesus’ death was not a “penal substitution” but a divine epiphany for all to see. Jesus was pure gift, and the idea of gift is much more transformative than any idea of necessity, price, or transaction. It shows that God is not violent, but loving.~https://cac.org/nonviolent-atonement-one-ment-2016-10-12/

Thanks for the post.

I am not familiar with this author, but it seems to represent the "example" or "moral" views of the Atonement.

The two problems, of course, with these views are that they can do nothing to change the fallen nature of man. They do nothing to remove the sin everyone commits daily. Sin cannot be joined to God, yet God commands us to be joined to Him. Effective change can only occur with the death of the "old man." That is a spiritual work and thus can only occur by the Spirit of God giving birth to us. Only that which is spiritual can give birth to that which is spiritual. Only that which is spiritual in nature can be joined to God who is Spirit. Such is not possible by example/inspiration alone.

Also, of course, those views avoid the necessity of justice. It is our experience in societies the world over that without justice, there is no prosperity of any sort.

I surmise that those two views are attractive to those desiring to work for their salvation (not that that is the case with you)

(Sorry for not looking up supporting Scripture. they are there though)

AACJ · Dec 21, 2017

mkgal1 · Dec 21, 2017

AACJ said:
The two problems, of course, with this view is that it can do nothing to change the fallen nature of man. It cannot do nothing remove the sin everyone commits daily. Sin cannot be joined to God, yet God commands us to be joined to Him. Effective change can only occur with the death of the "old man." That is a spiritual work and thus can only occur by the Spirit of God giving birth to us. Only that which is spiritual can give birth to that which is spiritual. Only that which is spiritual in nature can be joined to God who is Spirit. Such is not possible by example/inspiration alone.

I disagree. Christ's death on the cross covers our shame. I believe this sort of love is exactly the transformative kind. What really began my journey into looking into this alternative view (but never unOrthodox view) was this ministry of Fr Greg Boyle's. To me....these demonstrate the transformative kind of love God has for us:

Also, of course, those views avoid the necessity of justice.

There is a variety of justice you're probably overlooking---and that's largely what HomeBoy Industries employs---"restorative justice". I believe that's God's form of justice for the very reason I believe you've pointed out: that God's life was valuable. I don't believe He died for a partial restoration of all things He created. I believe He's reconciling ALL things to Him (as Col 1:20 says). An example of restorative justice:

mkgal1 · Dec 21, 2017

The Transformative Power of the Cross said:
“THE CROSS IS THE STANDING STATEMENT OF WHAT WE DO TO ONE ANOTHER AND TO OURSELVES. THE RESURRECTION IS THE STANDING STATEMENT OF WHAT GOD DOES”
~ RICHARD ROHR

I like what Richard Rohr said about the transformative power of the cross. The unconditional love of God as displayed by Christ on the cross forgiving the world renders the hostility of the human ego or false identity powerless and causes us to see the true image of God – not a vindictive, authoritarian judge but a deeply loving and gracious Father who welcomes us home with open arms.~The transformative power of the cross

Daniel Marsh · Dec 21, 2017

brinny said:
The living and holy God must think of "sin" as so inexplicably abhorrent, and sooooo horrendous that He did something as drastic as sending His only begotten Son to die "For US, ALL of us" to keep us from such a place.

Thank God for His grace, amen?

Who said the fire is literal?

Here is how to explain it to a young child. Image after you die, that you come into the presence of God who is infinite love, but you can not stay with him because you never chose to become God's friend. Then you are removed from the presence of God and his love, would that feel like torture to you? Matthew 25:46 Most children are smart enough to ask how they can become God's friend. That simple.

brinny · Dec 21, 2017

brinny said: ↑
The living and holy God must think of "sin" as so inexplicably abhorrent, and sooooo horrendous that He did something as drastic as sending His only begotten Son to die "For US, ALL of us" to keep us from such a place.

Thank God for His grace, amen?

Daniel Marsh said:
Who said the fire is literal?

Here is how to explain it to a young child. Image after you die, that you come into the presence of God who is infinite love, but you can not stay with him because you never chose to become God's friend. Then you are removed from the presence of God and his love, would that feel like torture to you? Matthew 25:46 Most children are smart enough to ask how they can become God's friend. That simple.

Ummmmmm...what has this got to do with what i posted and the post i was responding to?

Der Alte · Dec 21, 2017

Ronald said:
Begin quote

Do a word study on eternity, destruction and perish. Eternity/eternal are translated from the Greek words, aion / aionios. These words have variable meanings: generation(s), lifetime(s), age(s), epoch, world. When it is used to describe God, His domain or our salvation it means a spiritual existence without end. When it is applied to temporal physical things (everything else), then it has a finite meaning. Everlasting would translate into age-lasting or age-during as well, which is also finite.
Hades (Sheol) is a place where the unsaved dead go and await their ultimate destruction, which means, they get resurrected and thrown into the Lake of Fire(Hell).

End quote

Please show me any Greek grammar which says "When [aion/aionios] is used to describe God, His domain or our salvation it means a spiritual existence without end. When it is applied to temporal physical things (everything else), then it has a finite meaning?"

Destruction and perish means to put an end to. You can't destroy something over and over again for an endless amount of time. That would mean an indestructible destruction or imperishable perishing -- it's contradictory.

The word most often translated "destruction" is ἀπόλλυμι/Apollumi occurs 90 times in the NT, of this 68 times, 76%, it cannot mean the destruction/annihilation which some argue supposedly occurs at the final judgment. Here is a list of those meanings.
(1) ruin, (2) do not bring about his ruin, (3) put to death, the wicked tenants, (4) he will put the evildoers to a miserable death, (5) destroy the wisdom of the wise, (6) destroy the understanding, (7) lose, (8) lose the reward, (9) lose what we have worked for, (10) lose one’s life, (11) lose oneself, (12) The man who risks his life in battle has the best chance of saving it; the one who flees to save it is most likely to lose it’), (13) ruined, (14) die, the man dies, (15) As a cry of anguish, we are perishing!, (16) of disaster that the stormy sea brings to the seafarer, (17) die by the sword, (18) die of hunger, (19) be corrupted, (20) killed by the snakes, (21) those who are lost, (22) of things be lost, (23) pass away, (24) be ruined, (26) of bursting wineskins, (25) fading beauty, (26) transitory beauty of gold, (27) passing splendor, (28) Of earthly food, (29) spoiled honey, (30) Of falling hair, (31) a member or organ of the body, (32) remnants of food, (33) of wine that has lost its flavor, (34) of sheep gone astray, (35) Of a lost son [that returned].

Begin quote

I believe the Lake of Fire is literal, like a volcanic lava lake. Imagine being thrown in there -- how long would it take for you to die? Paper burns and that's it, it doesn't keep burning. The best visual imagery to date I think is that scene in Lord of the Rings where Golum falls into the river of lava.

End quote

When God chooses He can place or allow someone or thing thing to be in fire and not be destroyed. See e.g. Exodus 3:2 the burning bush Daniel 3:23 The 3 Hebrew slaves

Begin quote

In Revelation 20:14, Death and Hades are thrown into the Lake of Fire and destroyed -- put an end to. Wait a minute, death is destroyed? Think about it, the wages of sin is death, but then death comes to an end!
How would God be glorified by allowing billions of souls who have sinned for anywhere from childhood to 80 years or so? God is fair and in the Bible we see His justice and it has always been fair and for a time - finite. The punishment matches the crime. Even Hitler's crimes shouldn't be eternal. Even if his punishment was 6 million lifetimes, eventually it ends at some point.

End quote

Death is the point in time end of life, it has no physical presence therefore it cannot literally be thrown anywhere. But there is a death which can be thrown into the LofF.

Revelation 6:8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.

The angels of death and hades will be thrown into the LofF and their power to kill ended.

Your question is a valid one. Eternal Hell has been a stumbling block for many. Many people would use that excuse not to become a Christian: "I can't worship any god who would create an eternal torture chamber." That's actually a good excuse. But even if it were so, I would be more concerned about my suffering than anyone else's. It also interesting how these people are so concerned about others suffering, when they wouldn't share crumbs with a bum or even say hello.
I know this goes against the grain of traditional doctrine accepted by both Catholic and Protestant Churches and Non-Denominational churches, but it is the way I see it and am pretty comfortable with it. If I'm wrong, well God will let me know, "Ron, I am causing suffering to billions of souls forever, do you have a problem with that?" A ... nope ... just remove that from my mind if you would please. That's what He would have to do when we all get up there. We would know that we have people, friends, family suffering -- how could we enjoy eternal life with this knowledge? He would have to wipe it away. But how would we remember what Christ's suffering did if not to keep us from suffering ... wait a minute, what suffering? See how that ends up? Our whole history is a lesson to remember, we need to remember where we came from so that we can forever appreciate what God has done for us. We also need to know that His judgments are just and fair. If our memory was erased of an "eternal torture chamber", then God would be left alone with that knowledge -- again, how does He glory in that. Vengeance is His but really, does He need that much?

How was God glorified when He destroyed all the people on the earth, old, young, men women, children, infants, except for Noah and his family? How was God glorified when the destroyed all the people in Sodom, Gomorrah and the cities of the plain, old, young, men, women, children, infants? How was God glorified when He commanded Israel to go into Canaan and destroy the cites and everyone in them old, young, men. women, children infants?

Deuteronomy 32:25
(25) The sword without, and terror within, shall destroy both the young man and the virgin, the suckling also with the man of gray hairs.

Anguspure · Dec 21, 2017

AACJ said:
No, that is not the "root of the problem." The primary issues are justice, accountability, and perfect atonement. All the alternatives to everlasting punishment fail in one or more of these.

If humans are not immortal then they will die when they are put to death, they will not live forever. Everlasting life is what is promised for those who are able to eat from the tree of life who is our Lord, God and Saviour.
Where do you think life comes from? Does it not come from God?

Anguspure · Dec 21, 2017

AACJ said:
You do not want everlasting punishment to be true. Isn't that right? What, did you have a friend or loved that died in their sins or committed suicide, and alternatives to everlasting Hell-fire just makes such tragedies more acceptable or tolerable to you?

The everlasting punishement that is death lasts forever, I do not deny it. I do not deny that those who are thus destroyed are cast into the fire either. However, those who face eternal destruction (the 2nd death) will be destroyed forever, as opposed to those who die and then are ressurected to life in Christ Jesus. Eternal death is just that, death that last for eternity that one does not come back from.

This should be horrifying enough and meets all of the requirements of justice, it is also completley Biblical without a trace of Greek mysticism anywhere, unlike the view of eternal life in hell.

My reason for considering this to be true is not what I want, rather it is based upon a study that begins with a complete understanding of the Hebrew word "nephesh" and the implications drawn from this understanding.

I have realised that the doctrine of unconditional human immortality; which makes eternal life in Hell a valid teaching, is completley wrong and in fact undermines some very key teachings relating to the Gospel.

For example how can a person be ressurected from the dead if they do not in fact die? We are promised a ressurection after the example of Christ Jesus who died (really died) and then risen from the dead. If the living do not die the there is no ressurection from the dead, if there is no ressurection from the dead, then Christ was not ressurected either, and if Christ was not ressurected then we are all dead in our sins and looking forward only to death.

Anguspure · Dec 21, 2017

TheBibleIsTruth said:
Indeed it is death, known in the Bible as the "second death", in the "lake of fire", which the Bible very clearly says, "A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: “If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives its mark on their forehead or on their hand, they, too, will drink the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever. There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name.” (Revelation 14:9-11). Which says that all those who have the "mark of the beast", the lost, will be "tormented" "forever and ever", with no mention that this will ever cease! Yet you and those who support "annihilation" have openly challenged the Word of Almighty God, because this is something that they cannot accept, and see as unjust, and have removed the "eternal, unending punishment" of the wicked. What is the point in saying, "flee from the wrath that is to come"? (Matthew 3:7), when it is meaningless!

Yes the second death is eternal and dead, yes there is a lake of fire, but none of this implies eternal life given to those who are condemned to death.
The smoke of their torment rises forever does not imply that anybody is alive. It is the smoke that is rising not the people. If I throw a bug into the fire the smoke of that fire that tormented the bug lasts for as long as I want it to. But it is very silly to suggest that the bug lives as long as the smoke rises.

The wicked live lives that are against the Just and Holy God of the Holy Bible, and though time and again they are warned and threatened that will suffer "eternal punishment" for this, modern "theology" has seen to it that the threats of God are all a bluff, and not to be taken seriously!!! This is the devils work, like those to now promote the heresy that sinners no longer need to "repent" in order to be saved!

God promises that the punishment for sin is death, and has done so from the beginning. This is no idle threat and it is something terrible that we should indeed flee. Certainly the Pharisees who were about to stone the woman caught in adultery understood the horror of having ones name written in the dust so there is really no need to invent sick medieval tortures on top of it like some sadistic inquisitor.

TheBibleIsTruth · Dec 21, 2017

Anguspure said:
Yes the second death is eternal and dead, yes there is a lake of fire, but none of this implies eternal life given to those who are condemned to death.
The smoke of their torment rises forever does not imply that anybody is alive. It is the smoke that is rising not the people. If I throw a bug into the fire the smoke of that fire that tormented the bug lasts for as long as I want it to. But it is very silly to suggest that the bug lives as long as the smoke rises.

God promises that the punishment for sin is death, and has done so from the beginning. This is no idle threat and it is something terrible that we should indeed flee. Certainly the Pharisees who were about to stone the woman caught in adultery understood the horror of having ones name written in the dust so there is really no need to invent sick medieval tortures on top of it like some sadistic inquisitor.

You have missed it! read carefully and you will see, "their torment will rise for ever and ever", which means that these "referred" to here, belonging to the class (THEIR) of those have the "mark of the beast", that is ALL the lost, will be "tormented eternally". You cannot detract from this without doing an injustice to the passage!

Anguspure · Dec 21, 2017

TheBibleIsTruth said:
You have missed it! read carefully and you will see, "their torment will rise for ever and ever", which means that these "referred" to here, belonging to the class (THEIR) of those have the "mark of the beast", that is ALL the lost, will be "tormented eternally". You cannot detract from this without doing an injustice to the passage!

Yes the smoke of their torment. In other words the fire caused their torment smokes, they were executed in the fire and this caused their torment as they died. Very horrible. But it does not thereby imply that they go onto eternal life.
So how will they be tormented when they are dead (for the penalty for sin is death)?
Even if this one passage carries the inference you are looking for, the overwhelming revelation of the Bible, over and over again, is that the penalty for sin is deatrh, that the human soul is extinguished at death, that our names are written in the dust, that we are destroyed etc etc.
God has at not time made revelation that the penalty for sin is eternal life.

AACJ · Dec 21, 2017

Anguspure said:
....Everlasting life is what is promised for those who are able to eat from the tree of life who is our Lord, God and Saviour.
Where do you think life comes from? Does it not come from God?

The eternal life you have referenced describes not only eternality, but also quality of life. So of course Scripture is going to use different phrasing to describe the quality of everlasting life of believers as distinct from the quality of the everlasting life of those who perish in their sins.

AACJ · Dec 21, 2017

Anguspure said:
The everlasting punishement that is death lasts forever, I do not deny it. I do not deny that those who are thus destroyed are cast into the fire either. However, those who face eternal destruction (the 2nd death) will be destroyed forever, as opposed to those who die and then are ressurected to life in Christ Jesus. Eternal death is just that, death that last for eternity that one does not come back from.
.

We can only know what constitutes death except by using a standard to determine such. We cannot know what death is except from that which is Life, which is God Almighty Himself. God is necessarily the very standard whereby we can determine what constitutes death and life.

The penalty for breaking God’s commands is death, Why? Because God is Life (Psalms 36:9; John 14:6), and sin—the breaking of God’s Law—separates us from God (Isaiah 59:2). Whoever is separated from God is therefore separated from Life, and whoever is separated from Life is necessarily dead. Once such a transgressor is rendered non-existent, there is no more separation, because true separation is only possible between those persons or objects that actually exist. So where there is no true separation there can literally be no death. Therefore, within the model of Annihilationism, there can be no true lasting death--in any sense--after material death.

Doug Melven · Dec 21, 2017

ClementofA said:
What gives you that idea? Sodom was wiped out by fire from God.

New International Version
Your older sister was Samaria, who lived to the north of you with her daughters; and your younger sister, who lived to the south of you with her daughters, was Sodom.

You always seem to like the YLT, but you don't use it here.
Young's Literal Translation
And thine elder sister is Samaria, she and her daughters, Who is dwelling at thy left hand, And thy younger sister, who is dwelling on thy right hand, is Sodom and her daughters.
In this case using "is" instead of was changes the meaning.

ClementofA said:
Yet everyone will be saved:

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for all mankind for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for all mankind for life's justifying."

Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, the many were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, the many shall be constituted just."

You keep quoting this verse when it is clear Paul said in verse 1 of that chapter we are justified by faith.
So Jesus Christ who is the Savior of the world will only save those who trust in Him.
There is no other name under heaven given among men whereby we must be saved. Acts 4:12

ClementofA · Dec 21, 2017

Doug Melven said:
You keep quoting this verse when it is clear Paul said in verse 1 of that chapter we are justified by faith.
So Jesus Christ who is the Savior of the world will only save those who trust in Him.
There is no other name under heaven given among men whereby we must be saved. Acts 4:12

Jesus' disciple Thomas refused to believe in His resurrection unless he see Him with his own eyes & put his hand into His wounded side. When Jesus appeared through the walls into the room where Thomas was, Thomas believed. Do you suppose atheists who say the same thing as Thomas will not believe after death or resurrection when they see Jesus?

According to the Scriptures, God is Love Omnipotent, not a mythical deception infinitely worse than Hitler, Bin Laden & Satan combined.

If God doesn't save all, is it because He can't or doesn't want to?
"...it doesn't say what most evangelizers of hopelessness want it to say in that regard either."
"It is false, he maintained, to translate that phrase as "everlasting punishment," introducing into the New Testament the concept found in the Islamic Quran that God is going to torture the wicked forever."
"...non-Christians are punished forever for not recieving grace, which doesn't seem very graceful to me."

Statement of Faith -- Please Read

7 Myths About Universalism

Christian universalism--Ultimate Reconcilation: The True "Good News" Gospel of the Bible

Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism

Universalism – The Truth Shall Make You Free

http://www.hopebeyondhell.net/articles/further-study/eternity/

Doug Melven · Dec 21, 2017

ClementofA said:
esus' disciple Thomas refused to believe in His resurrection unless he see Him with his own eyes & put his hand into His wounded side. When Jesus appeared through the walls into the room where Thomas was, Thomas believed. Do you suppose atheists who say the same thing as Thomas will not believe after death or resurrection when they see Jesus?

Thomas was still breathing air above ground when he said.
If an atheist dies as an atheist he will find out how wrong he was, but it will be to late.
If we were to have a chance to repent after we die, why would anyone make a decision for Christ?
All who live godly in Christ Jesus will suffer persecution.
People could live however they wanted during this life and still get eternal life.
Doesn't seem like a very just God to me.
And Jesus said if you do that you are a fool.
Luke 12:16 And he spake a parable unto them, saying, The ground of a certain rich man brought forth plentifully:
12:17 And he thought within himself, saying, What shall I do, because I have no room where to bestow my fruits?
12:18 And he said, This will I do: I will pull down my barns, and build greater; and there will I bestow all my fruits and my goods.
12:19 And I will say to my soul, Soul, thou hast much goods laid up for many years; take thine ease, eat, drink, and be merry.
12:20 But God said unto him, Thou fool, this night thy soul shall be required of thee: then whose shall those things be, which thou hast provided?

ClementofA said:
According to the Scriptures, God is Love Omnipotent, not a mythical deception infinitely worse than Hitler, Bin Laden & Satan combined.

If God doesn't save all, is it because He can't or doesn't want to?
"...it doesn't say what most evangelizers of hopelessness want it to say in that regard either."
"It is false, he maintained, to translate that phrase as "everlasting punishment," introducing into the New Testament the concept found in the Islamic Quran that God is going to torture the wicked forever."
"...non-Christians are punished forever for not recieving grace, which doesn't seem very graceful to me."

You say God is Love Omnipotent, but I never hear you talk about His holiness or wrath.
Does this verse in Psalm 137 sound like a God of love?
:9 Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones.
God would love to have everybody get saved, but He will not go against our freewill.
Deuteronomy 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:
Who cares what is in the Islamic Quran says, and wasn't it written well after the Bible was?

ClementofA · Dec 21, 2017

Doug Melven said:
Thomas was still breathing air above ground when he said.
If an atheist dies as an atheist he will find out how wrong he was, but it will be to late.

So God gave to Thomas what would save him, but He's going to deny the same to the atheist? And why, because His love expires like a carton of milk at the moment of death? How & when do aborted babies, then, get born again?

Doug Melven said:
If we were to have a chance to repent after we die, why would anyone make a decision for Christ?

I've already told you, hell, not endless tortures. And how can anyone make a decision for Christ whom they've never heard of, 5 and 10 year olds & retards included.

Doug Melven said:
All who live godly in Christ Jesus will suffer persecution.
People could live however they wanted during this life and still get eternal life.

And hell for maybe thousands of years? Who wants that? Even unbelievers suffer persecutions & from horrible diseases etc. Everyone suffers. Many Christians suffer little.

Doug Melven said:
Doesn't seem like a very just God to me.

The Bible says God is the justifier of everyone believing in Jesus. There's no time limits mentioned there.

Doug Melven said:
And Jesus said if you do that you are a fool.
Luke 12:16 And he spake a parable unto them, saying, The ground of a certain rich man brought forth plentifully:
12:17 And he thought within himself, saying, What shall I do, because I have no room where to bestow my fruits?
12:18 And he said, This will I do: I will pull down my barns, and build greater; and there will I bestow all my fruits and my goods.
12:19 And I will say to my soul, Soul, thou hast much goods laid up for many years; take thine ease, eat, drink, and be merry.
12:20 But God said unto him, Thou fool, this night thy soul shall be required of thee: then whose shall those things be, which thou hast provided?

Yes, it's quite foolish to choose to go to hell.

Doug Melven said:
You say God is Love Omnipotent, but I never hear you talk about His holiness or wrath.

His holiness speaks of His being separate from other gods, such as the Koran god who endlessly tortures humans. His wrath is not what He is, which is Love. His wrath is for the loving correction of sinners:

Because I have sinned against him,
I will bear the LORD’s wrath,
until he pleads my case
and upholds my cause.
He will bring me out into the light;
I will see his righteousness.
(Micah 7:9)

Doug Melven said:
Does this verse in Psalm 137 sound like a God of love?
:9 Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones.

Who is that talking? God, or David who committed premeditated adultery and murder? In any case, a quick death like that is nothing compared to how many people die, even by abortion, or cancer. And of course nothing compared to endless tortures. How can you even compare the two? See also some commentaries on that verse:

Psalm 137:9 Commentaries: How blessed will be the one who seizes and dashes your little ones Against the rock.

According to the Scriptures, God is Love Omnipotent, not a mythical deception infinitely worse than Hitler, Bin Laden & Satan combined.

If God doesn't save all, is it because He can't or doesn't want to?
"...it doesn't say what most evangelizers of hopelessness want it to say in that regard either."
"It is false, he maintained, to translate that phrase as "everlasting punishment," introducing into the New Testament the concept found in the Islamic Quran that God is going to torture the wicked forever."
"...non-Christians are punished forever for not recieving grace, which doesn't seem very graceful to me."

Statement of Faith -- Please Read

7 Myths About Universalism

Christian universalism--Ultimate Reconcilation: The True "Good News" Gospel of the Bible

http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/unique_proof_for_universalism.html

http://tentmaker.org/blog1/universalism/

Eternity in the Bible by Gerry Beauchemin – Hope Beyond Hell

Drifter Kybe Scythe Kane · Dec 21, 2017

ClementofA said:
"O.K. so, how do you people who believe in eternal torture in fire, how do you tuck your children in at night and explain to them that God loves you but if you don't love Him He is going to torture you in fire, not for the length of your favorite video, not for the length of a day, not even for the length of a year but it will be unending. Mommy and Daddy will be in heaven while you writhe in unimaginable suffering because this is what God does to those who don't love Him."

"So how do you explain to your children about God's love? Do you tell them the truth that you love your children more than God does and you would never harm your children even if they don't love you?"

"There has to come a time when you tell them the truth, don't you think?"

"This is not sarcasm. It is letting those who believe in eternal torment come to grips with their beliefs. If they are honest with themselves they have to tell their children these things.
After all, we wouldn't want to sugar coat something so serious as a loving God torturing people for billions and billions and billions and billions of years without end, those who do not love Him, now would we?"

"And if your children only love Him to escape such a fate, what kind of hypocritical love is that?"

"As a child, camping out, I would ask my friends as we sat around the campfire and looking into it: "How can God burn people in fire for e--t--e--r--n--i--t--y?" No one would say a word. But it always bugged me. As I grew up and started visiting hell-fire churches, it was psychologically horrifying. It's like the people that attend those churches do so for the thrill of having the begeebies scared out of them. Kind of like thrill seekers. I was so glad to leave that behind and find out about God's love and plan for all mankind."

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"Yep. People who say that they believe in Hell aren't remotely serious. If they were, they would be catatonic."

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"I went through a phase where I strongly believed in ET. I lost my appetite (and thus a lot of weight) and was constantly anxious. It was terrible."

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"That is indeed the seat of a LOT of mental health concerns many Christians who subscribe to it suffer; consequently, I can understand certain over-the-top reactions by some
supposed non-believers."

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"Basically Hell is a component in an intellectual construct that many people toy with in their minds. Nobody believes in Hell in the same way that I believe that I love my daughter,
that my mother loves me, that the sky is blue, etc."

Concerning 1 Timothy 4:10

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Have you been decieved by your Bible translation?

I totally agree Clement of A with your first post. i don't want to forge a faith with this...suffering. yes, engrave upon your eye the image of injustice indeed. but i think hell is a form of injustice all in itself and so therefore i don't believe in it but i believe in it being a headquarters for demons and lucifer. when death diminishes us and transfers us to the spirit world, we are in the glory of god and his heaven for us.

TuxAme · Dec 21, 2017

Scripture is clear:
"Then he will say to those at his left hand, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels' [...] And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." Matthew 25:41, 46

It's a reality we have to face. Some people are doomed to eternal fire, and it's because of the decisions they made. God didn't force them to sin, and neither did anyone else. We choose for ourselves to reject God's mercy and embrace sin, and God won't force us to spend eternity with Him when we made it very clear in our lives that we'd rather remain in sin.

how do people who believe in eternal torture in fire

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His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

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everlovin' shiner of light in dark places

This is me about 1 yr. old.

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Quis ut Deus?

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