7 seals of Revelation - Bible study LIVE

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No, pulling a verse out of its context is never correct. But perhaps it just doesn't bother you to do it. In context, the first seal was broken as soon as Jesus ascended. Just so you know, that would be 2000 years or so TOO SOON for the Antichrist.

Next, John used the color white 17 other times in Rev. and never to represent anything evil. He always used white to represent righteousness. In fact, there is not even one single word in the 1st seal description that would even hint of evil.

I will grant you, if the Antichrist were writing Revelation, he would want to color himself white, but sorry, it is GOD's book, and He used John to do the writing. And God chose white for this seal and colored the dragon fiery red.

There is simply no reason to even think the first seal is to represent the antichrist. However, since it was opened around 32 AD, right when Jesus ascended, it is perfect timing with the church taking the gospel to the world.

Hi Lamad,


I get your reasoning for white in the passage but would you address how “he went forth conquering, and to conquer” represents the spread of the gospel. Also touch on the meaning of the bow, a weapon of war. Those terms IMHO do not represent how the gospel is spread.


BTW, I do not believe the first seal represents the antichrist either.
 
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Douggg

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This leads both of us to make assumptions. I’m assuming that this did take place on the mount of olives, even though it doesn’t say that. You are assuming it takes place in the temple, even though it doesn’t say that either.
No... I am not assuming anything. You are simply not accepting what is in the text, claninja. :hug:

It is in the text in Luke 20-21, they were in the temple complex, and verses 4 to 5 make it clear they were there in the temple complex. It is not saying in Luke 21 they left the temple after verse 4 and before verse 5.

4 For all these have of their abundance cast in unto the offerings of God: but she of her penury hath cast in all the living that she had.

5 And as some spake of the temple, how it was adorned with goodly stones and gifts, he said,

6 As for these things which ye behold, the days will come, in the which there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
 
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Douggg

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Do you believe in 2 different ressurection events of Jesus, as the accounts between the gospels are much different?
Different, but not different that Jesus resurrected from where?

Luke 21 is not a separate account of the Olivet discourse - because Luke 21 is Jesus speaking in the temple complex.

Mark 13 and Matthew 24 - Olivet discourse.

_____________________________________________________________

Do you think Jesus kept it private to the disciples only that when they see Jerusalem surrounded by armies to flee? And the temple would be tore down and the Jews exiled to the nations afterward?

Luke 21 was not private to the disciples only. Jesus was speaking to the crowd as everyone there was listening to him preach.
 
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claninja

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No... I am not assuming anything. You are simply not accepting what is in the text, claninja. :hug:

It is in the text in Luke 20-21, they were in the temple complex, and verses 4 to 5 make it clear they were there in the temple complex. It is not saying in Luke 21 they left the temple after verse 4 and before verse 5.

4 For all these have of their abundance cast in unto the offerings of God: but she of her penury hath cast in all the living that she had.

5 And as some spake of the temple, how it was adorned with goodly stones and gifts, he said,

6 As for these things which ye behold, the days will come, in the which there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

Looks like we will just have to agree to disagree and let the readers decide.
 
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jgr

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Exactly.

Matthew is referring to events that will occur after a present day temple is built in Jerusalem and Luke is referring to the events of 70AD.
Not according to these brethren.

Matthew 24 historicists

160AD Clement of Alexandria (On Matthew 24:15, The Abomination of Desolation) "We have still to add to our chronology the following, -- I mean the days which Daniel indicates from the desolation of Jerusalem, the seven years and seven months of the reign of Vespasian. For the two years are added to the seventeen months and eighteen days of Otho, and Galba, and Vitellius; and the result is three years and six months, which is "the half of the week," as Daniel the prophet said. For he said that there were two thousand three hundred days from the time that the abomination of Nero stood in the holy city, till its destruction. For thus the declaration, which is subjoined, shows: "How long shall be the vision, the sacrifice taken away, the abomination of desolation, which is given, and the power and the holy place shall be trodden under foot? And he said to him, Till the evening and morning, two thousand three hundred days, and the holy place shall be taken away."


325AD Eusebius Pamphilius, Ecclesiastical History: (On Matthew 24:15) "--all these things, as well as the many great sieges which were carried on against the cities of Judea, and the excessive. sufferings endured by those that fled to Jerusalem itself, as to a city of perfect safety, and finally the general course of the whole war, as well as its particular occurrences in detail, and how at last the abomination of desolation, proclaimed by the prophets, stood in the very temple of God, so celebrated of old, the temple which was now awaiting its total and final destruction by fire,-- all these things any one that wishes may find accurately described in the history written by Josephus." (Book III, Ch. 5)


375AD 'John' Chrysostom, Homily St. Matthew: (On Matthew 24:15) "And see how He relates the war, by the things that seem to be small setting forth how intolerable it was to be. For, "Then,"saith He, "let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains." Then, When? When these things should be, "when the abomination of desolation should stand in the holy place." Whence He seems to me to be speaking of the armies." (Homily 76, Number 1)


John Calvin

Matthew 24:15

When you shall see the abomination of desolation. Because the destruction of the temple and city of Jerusalem, together with the overthrow of the whole Jewish government, was (as we have already said) a thing incredible, and because it might be thought strange, that the disciples could not be saved without being torn from that nation, to which had been committed the adoption and the covenant(Romans 9:4) of eternal salvation, Christ confirms both by the testimony of Daniel As if he had said, That you may not be too strongly attached to the temple and to the ceremonies of the Law, God has limited them to a fixed time, 136 and has long ago declared, that when the Redeemer should come, sacrifices would cease; and that it may not give you uneasiness to be cut off from your own nation, God has also forewarned his people, that in due time it would be rejected.


Adam Clarke

Matthew 24:15

The abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel - This abomination of desolation, St. Luke, (Luk 21:20, Luk 21:21), refers to the Roman army; and this abomination standing in the holy place is the Roman army besieging Jerusalem; this, our Lord says, is what was spoken of by Daniel the prophet, in the ninth and eleventh chapters of his prophecy; and so let every one who reads these prophecies understand them; and in reference to this very event they are understood by the rabbins. The Roman army is called an abomination, for its ensigns and images, which were so to the Jews. Josephus says, (War, b. vi. chap. 6), the Romans brought their ensigns into the temple, and placed them over against the eastern gate, and sacrificed to them there. The Roman army is therefore fitly called the abomination, and the abomination which maketh desolate, as it was to desolate and lay waste Jerusalem; and this army besieging Jerusalem is called by St. Mark, Mar 13:14, standing where it ought not, that is, as in the text here, the holy place; as not only the city, but a considerable compass of ground about it, was deemed holy, and consequently no profane persons should stand on it.

Matthew 24:16

Then let them which be in Judea flee into the mountains - This counsel was remembered and wisely followed by the Christians afterwards. Eusebius and Epiphanius say, that at this juncture, after Cestius Gallus had raised the siege, and Vespasian was approaching with his army, all who believed in Christ left Jerusalem and fled to Pella, and other places beyond the river Jordan; and so they all marvellously escaped the general shipwreck of their country: not one of them perished. See on Mat 24:13 (note).


Matthew Henry

Matthew 24:15

Here he comes more closely to answer their questions concerning the desolation of the temple; and what he said here, would be of use to his disciples, both for their conduct and for their comfort, in reference to that great event; he describes the several steps of that calamity, such as are usual in war.1. The Romans setting up the abomination of desolation in the holy place, v. 15. Now, (1.) Some understand by this an image, or statue, set up in the temple by some of the Roman governors, which was very offensive to the Jews, provoked them to rebel, and so brought the desolation upon them. The image of Jupiter Olympius, which Antiochus caused to be set upon the altar of God, is called Bdelygma eremoseos —The abomination of desolation, the very word here used by the historian, 1 Mac. 1:54 . Since the captivity in Babylon, nothing was, nor could be, more distasteful to the Jews than an image in the holy place, as appeared by the mighty opposition they made when Caligula offered to set up his statue there, which had been of fatal consequence, if it had not been prevented, and the matter accommodated, by the conduct of Petronius; but Herod did set up an eagle over the temple-gate; and, some say, the statue of Titus was set up in the temple. (2.) Others choose to expound it by the parallel place (Lu. 21:20 ),when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies. Jerusalem was the holy city, Canaan the holy land, the Mount Moriah, which lay about Jerusalem, for its nearness to the temple was, they thought in a particular manner holy ground; on the country lying round about Jerusalem the Roman army was encamped, that was the abomination that made desolate. The land of an enemy is said to be the land which thou abhorrest (Isa. 7:16 ); so an enemy’s army to a weak but wilful people may well be called the abomination.Now this is said to be spoken of by Daniel, the prophet, who spoke more plainly of the Messiah and his kingdom than any of the Old-Testament prophets did. He speaks of an abomination making desolate, which should be set up by Antiochus (Dan. 11:31Dan. 12:11 ); but this that our Saviour refers to, we have in the message that the angel brought him (Dan. 9:27 ), of what should come at the end of seventy weeks, long after the former; for the overspreading of abominations, or, as the margin reads it, with the abominable armies (which comes home to the prophecy here), he shall make it desolate.


John Wesley

Matthew 24:15-16
24:15
When ye see the abomination of desolation - Daniel's term is, The abomination that maketh desolate, Daniel 11:31 ; that is, the standards of the desolating legions, onwhich they bear the abominable images of their idols: Standing in the holy place - Not only the temple and the mountain on which it stood, but the whole city of Jerusalem, and several furlongs of land round about it, were accounted holy; particularly the mount on which our Lord now sat, and on which the Romans afterward planted their ensigns. He that readeth let him understand - Whoever reads that prophecy of Daniel, let him deeply consider it. 13:14 ; Luke 21:20; Dan 9:27.

24:16
Then let them who are in Judea flee to the mountains - So the Christians did, and were preserved. It is remarkable that after the Romans under Cestus Gallus made their first advances toward Jerusalem, they suddenly withdrew again, in a most unexpected and indeed impolitic manner. This the Christians took as a signal to retire, which they did, some to Pella, and others to Mount Libanus.


Charles Spurgeon

Matthew 24:15-18

This portion of our Savior’s words appears to relate solely to the destruction of Jerusalem. As soon as Christ’s disciples saw “the abomination of desolation,” that is, the Roman ensigns with their idolatrous emblems, “stand in the holy place,” they knew that the time for them to escape had arrived—and they did “flee into the mountains.” The Christians in Jerusalem and the surrounding towns and villages “in Judaea,” availed themselves of the first opportunity for eluding the Roman armies, and fled to the mountain city of Pella, in Perea, where they were preserved from the general destruction which overthrew the Jews. There was no time to spare before the final investment of the guilty city. The man “on the housetop” could “not come down to take anything out of his house,” and the man “in the field” could not “return back to take his clothes.” They must flee to the mountains in the greatest haste, the moment that they saw “Jerusalem compassed with armies” (Luke 21:20).
 
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Davy

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If the he or entity that sat on the first horse is the antichrist who are the he’s or entities that set upon the other three horses?

Could not these riders parallel Zechariah 6? Those riders are clearly spirits, Zechariah 6:5

Similar, but not exactly the same prophecy.
 
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Postvieww

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Similar, but not exactly the same prophecy.

Sorry I was not clear. I did not mean to imply Zechariah 6 was the same prophecy as Revelation 6. I do believe the riders of the horses from both passages are the same entities which might just work against some of the theories put forth.

Zechariah 6:5 And the angel answered and said unto me, These are the four spirits of the heavens, which go forth from standing before the Lord of all the earth.


Just interesting to note:

Zechariah’s description of the horses and riders are In Zechariah 6:1-8 and John’s description in Revelation is Revelation 6:1-8.

 
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iamlamad

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Hi Lamad,


I get your reasoning for white in the passage but would you address how “he went forth conquering, and to conquer” represents the spread of the gospel. Also touch on the meaning of the bow, a weapon of war. Those terms IMHO do not represent how the gospel is spread.


BTW, I do not believe the first seal represents the antichrist either.
It is clear by other passages, that Satan, the devil, is the present god of this world. He usurped Adam's authority and took over the kingdoms of the world. He would certainly not just stand back and allow the entrance of God's word into his territory! No, there had to be conquering and overcoming for every advance of the gospel. I have no revelation on the bow. All I know is, our weapons are not physical weapons, but spiritual.

Btw, Merry Christmas!
 
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