The second reformation.

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I was more familiar with the groups that were tired of unbiblical abusive church and seemed to be forming new churches or networks of communities. It's a general area to go if you "received wounds in the house of your friends"

I kind of hope from the pattern I'm observing, that the church grows from this and doesn't create a permanent third group to go to in protest.
That sounds like a whole other problem.

If the "Church" is abusive and not following Scripture, it's already broken.

Putting bandaids on broken legs comes to mind. I think Christ must be terribly, terribly grieved, to see so many of His children scattered, sheep without a shepherd, and unable to find shelter from the wolves that slash.

It breaks my heart too.
 
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Philip_B

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The first reformation protested the Pope. The second reformation protests the Pastor and the institution that creates the pastor. thoughts?
Thanks for the post. It embodies the question, not simply of leadership and direction, but also authority. It is a question that the synoptic gospels are agreed upon, and is a reference more popular with Deacons than with Bishops.

Matthew 20:25-26
But Jesus called them to him and said, ‘You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their great ones are tyrants over them. It will not be so among you; but whoever wishes to be great among you must be your servant,
Mark 10:42-43
So Jesus called them and said to them, ‘You know that among the Gentiles those whom they recognize as their rulers lord it over them, and their great ones are tyrants over them. But it is not so among you; but whoever wishes to become great among you must be your servant,
Luke 22:25-26
But he said to them, ‘The kings of the Gentiles lord it over them; and those in authority over them are called benefactors. But not so with you; rather the greatest among you must become like the youngest, and the leader like one who serves.​

One of the concerns ones hears expressed by members of reformed and to an even greater degree by the more recent/modern churches has to do with the way authority is exercised in the catholic churches, yet as an outside observer it often seems to me that they are far more authoritarian in terms of the practical and the day to day.

In our age we are far more likely to be concerned about our personhood more than community and hence the growing number of devices and applications designed to put us in control, sometime marketed as the i-this or the ithat yet the Church does not deal in i-salvation in the same way. John 3:16 tells us that God so loved the world.

It is a fairly modern interpretation of history to express the Reformation of the 16th century in terms of authority alone. Far more of the concern in continental Europe was not so much about the authority of the leadership as it was about calling the leadership back to the source of that authority. The Reformers questioned far more the direction that the leadership (Pope) was taking the Church. In England the questions came down to does the priest give you salvation because you have paid for enough chantry masses, and the greatest cause for reform was the translation of Scripture - the King's Bible - and the liturgy in the vulgar tongue.

The great schism of 1054 was indeed another example in ecclesial history where the mater of the authority was brought more sharply into focus, and in many ways more sharply that the reformation. The question revolved around is the Creed settled by the Pope or by the Councils.

Sometimes it seems that the modern Church is caught in the spin of a lust for relevance in a society that experiences levels of change faster than any time in history, and the the voice within that calls us to be faithful to the sacred deposit of faith.

Authority in the Church has been a question since the time of Jesus, and even though he seems to have been clear and is consistently reported we have struggled with all through the time since then, and no doubt will continue to do so.
 
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Albion

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My guess is that this movement, by whatever name, does have legs. However, it isn't likely to produce any coherent new movement. In fact, a number of the better known mainline denominations have moved in exactly this direction in recent years, such that there doesn't seem to be a third group at all, but instead a collapse of portions of the second one. ;) While some Protestant churches continue with the historic principles that defined the movement we call the Reformation, others have become whited sepulchers.
 
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Gregory Thompson

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That sounds like a whole other problem.

If the "Church" is abusive and not following Scripture, it's already broken.

Putting bandaids on broken legs comes to mind. I think Christ must be terribly, terribly grieved, to see so many of His children scattered, sheep without a shepherd, and unable to find shelter from the wolves that slash.

It breaks my heart too.
Yeah me too, it explains in part why extreme callings like mine are even necessary.

I pray for the unborn, may you make a better world and church than we did, in the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth Amen.
 
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Gregory Thompson

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My guess is that this movement, by whatever name, does have legs. However, it isn't likely to produce any coherent new movement. In fact, a number of the better known mainline denominations have moved in exactly this direction in recent years, such that there doesn't seem to be a third group at all, but instead a collapse of portions of the second one. ;)
Yeah, time will tell.
 
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redleghunter

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I was more familiar with the groups that were tired of unbiblical abusive church and seemed to be forming new churches or networks of communities. It's a general area to go if you "received wounds in the house of your friends"

I kind of hope from the pattern I'm observing, that the church grows from this and doesn't create a permanent third group to go to in protest.
Understand. I've never been in an abusive church. I moved around a lot in the military so maybe I did not stay long enough to observe. But I did and still do extensive research on a church before walking in the doors.
 
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LinkH

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The first reformation protested the Pope

The second reformation protests the Pastor and the institution that creates the pastor.

thoughts?

There is a Biblical role of pastor that we should not try to protest. But there are also many ideas associated with the word 'pastor' that are not particularly Biblical.

For example, the apostles appointed elders, more than one of them, appointed from within the church in Acts 14 and Titus 1, to pastor a local church. Many churches today have one pastor who is a hired professional hired from the pastoral job market, whatever that looks like in a particular religious tradition.

Some denominations require that a pastor complete a seminary degree as a qualification and others require that a pastor be called. Pastors in these denominations may or may not be required to fulfill the actual Biblical requirements for overseers.

There is also the fact that in the type of church meting the Bible instructs us about 'every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let everything be done unto edifying.' This is in contrast to the idea that the church is all baout everyone sitting and hearing one pastor do most of the talking.
 
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Tree of Life

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The first reformation protested the Pope

The second reformation protests the Pastor and the institution that creates the pastor.

thoughts?

The first Reformation rejected much more than the Papacy. It's also still continuing. The Reformed tradition is very alive.

This "second reformation" sounds highly unbiblical. What about a third reformation that rejects the Bible?
 
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DamianWarS

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The first reformation protested the Pope

The second reformation protests the Pastor and the institution that creates the pastor.

thoughts?

I think this already has a name... it's called Restorationism, essentially a response to denominationalism and a return to NT roots.
 
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Gregory Thompson

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The first Reformation rejected much more than the Papacy. It's also still continuing. The Reformed tradition is very alive.

This "second reformation" sounds highly unbiblical. What about a third reformation that rejects the Bible?
The second reformation is examining where the first reformation didn't go far enough in removing the catholocisms from the theology and expressions of faith. The third reformation is called the new age movement, much like the gnostics, it won't really go anywhere except maybe create a new religion officially in about 4 or 5 hundred years from now.
 
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Gregory Thompson

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I think this already has a name... it's called Restorationism, essentially a response to denominationalism and a return to NT roots.
This emerged after the aforementioned label was created.
 
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AlexDTX

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The first reformation protested the Pope

The second reformation protests the Pastor and the institution that creates the pastor.

thoughts?
I understand your intention, but the responses don't seem to recognize it. What you are addressing is the business system of the church that men calling themselves "pastors" use to make their living. First of all, I don't see a second reformation occurring. Yes, there are many believers who have walked away from that business who still gather together in other venues to share and pray together. But it is not reforming the business system. If anything, it is encouraging the mega church business system instead.

The body of Christ is an organic being. In my own 30 years I have never met a pastor in the pulpit. They have always been teachers, preachers, administrators, but not pastors. That is not to say there are no pastors. I have known quite a few, but they all have been in the congregation where the people actually are. The CEO's who run those businesses with the title of "pastor" rarely have contact with the congregation. Please do not misunderstand me. I have no doubt that there are many men who are truly pastors that are in the pulpit, I am just saying that I have not met them.
 
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Gregory Thompson

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The question is, how far away from God's holiness and the warnings in scripture, do you want to stray to be in the post-modern, politically correct emerging church?
The bible has always responded to the philosophers of the day, this is a biblical tradition to respond to post modernism, the question for me is ... how will I respond?
 
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Albion

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I think this already has a name... it's called Restorationism, essentially a response to denominationalism and a return to NT roots.
Probably not. Restorationism does claim a return to the style of the first Christian churches, but the emergent church is going in the opposite direction.
 
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DamianWarS

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This emerged after the aforementioned label was created.

what exactly is unique with this second reformation your suggesting? a resolve to split the church further IMO has a net loss to the gospel. Restorationist movement is probably a better focus at reforming the church without the need to fragment it and it's aim at restoring biblical values that have been lost.
 
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Albion

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Since we are all throwing ideas onto the table--and some pretty good ones IMHO--may it not be closer to the truth to say that the Reformation has never ceased to produce reform? Some churches have stayed close to the original beliefs, but various forces in society and in the church have produced wave after wave of new approaches. The idea that we can say there was the first Reformation but lately we've seen the second Reformation coming into view seems just too narrow to me.
 
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1stcenturylady

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The bible has always responded to the philosophers of the day, this is a biblical tradition to respond to post modernism, the question for me is ... how will I respond?

I think my name says it all... LOL
 
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~Anastasia~

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I almost don't want to say it ... the early Church is still here. Some of those very Churches mentioned in Scripture still exist, still in communion. They have existed largely under persecution, and totally apart from all these schisms and reformations in the West.

Jerusalem, Antioch, Thessolaniki ... they are now called under the label of Eastern Orthodox, since a label was needed to differentiate from all the schisms and reformations and denominations.

I just feel I'd be remiss in not saying it. Researching Church history and the early Church Fathers is worth doing, whatever your impression of the EO might be.

No need to reinvent the wheel. It's still alive and well, despite persecution.
 
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