Is there a gap between 1 Corinthians 15:23 and verse 24?

DavidPT · Dec 20, 2017

iamlamad said:
neither is there an "end" with nothing following at the end of the 1000 year reign.

I think I'm grasping what you are meaning here. But to be sure, could you comment on this part a bit further?

Truth7t7 · Dec 20, 2017

DavidPT said:
You want us to believe that the righteous will be under the threat of plagues throughout all eternity if they refuse to keep the feast of tabernacles? What righteous person remaining after Christ has returned could possibly have a desire to make themselves enemies of God by not doing what He has commanded? Seriously.

You want me to ignore the facts of scripture?

Zechariah 14

Verses 6-7 Eternal Light

Verse 8 The eternal river of life, Revelation 22:1-5

Verse 12 The last day judgment by fire, 2 peter 3:10-13

First Deal With The Factual Obvious

BABerean2 · Dec 20, 2017

DavidPT said:
No one could possibly think being shut up in a prison is not a form of punishment.

Peter sang praises to God while he was shut up in prison.

Paul continued his ministry while he was shut up in prison.

Being shut up in prison does not compare to the punishment at the judgment.
Eternal fire is the ultimate form of punishment.

2Pe 2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

.

Truth7t7 · Dec 20, 2017

BABerean2 said:
Peter sang praises to God while he was shut up in prison.

Paul continued his ministry while he was shut up in prison.

Being shut up in prison does not compare to the punishment at the judgment.
Eternal fire is the ultimate form of punishment.

2Pe 2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

.

Dont forget John Received The Revelation, While Being Shut Up In Prison.

DavidPT · Dec 20, 2017

BABerean2 said:
Peter sang praises to God while he was shut up in prison.

Paul continued his ministry while he was shut up in prison.

Being shut up in prison does not compare to the punishment at the judgment.
Eternal fire is the ultimate form of punishment.

2Pe 2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

.

Perhaps you need to go visit a modern day prison, and then tell the inmates there that they are not being punished. No doubt being shut up in prison compared to being cast into the lake of fire, that the latter is the harsher of the two. But that hardly makes being shut up in prison not a punishment then.

And it shall come to pass in that day, that the LORD shall punish the host of the high ones that are on high----and shall be shut up in the prison

shall punish---shall be shut up in the prison. I wonder if that is a contradiction? Is it a contradiction to punish and that punishing consisting of being shut up in the prison? Doesn't sound like a contradiction to me.

BTW, where does the text even mention the lake of fire in Isaiah 24? The only thing it mentions that resembles being punished is being shut up in the prison, and the punishing of the kings of the earth. Except for the part about and after many days shall they be visited, that involves punishing too, except it is not clear in that verse as to what that is referring to. This is where one needs to interpret that in light of what has been disclosed in the NT, in this case, particularly Revelation 20.

DavidPT · Dec 20, 2017

Truth7t7 said:
Dont forget John Received The Revelation, While Being Shut Up In Prison.

Even so, clearly those in Isaiah 24:21-22, none of them are meaning saints such as John, etc.

DavidPT · Dec 20, 2017

Truth7t7 said:
You want me to ignore the facts of scripture?

Zechariah 14

Verses 6-7 Eternal Light

Verse 8 The eternal river of life, Revelation 22:1-5

Verse 12 The last day judgment by fire, 2 peter 3:10-13

First Deal With The Factual Obvious

Haven't I already told you numerous times in other posts in other threads, that I fully agree the time in Zech 14 in question above, that it is meaning in the eternal realm that begins for humans once Christ has returned?

claninja · Dec 20, 2017

DavidPT said:
1 Corinthians 15:25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death

1.) is Christ in heaven or on earth until his enemies are defeated?

2.) how is anyone alive in heaven currently (death defeated) if Christ has not returned?

DavidPT · Dec 20, 2017

claninja said:
1.) is Christ in heaven or on earth until his enemies are defeated?

2.) how is anyone alive in heaven currently (death defeated) if Christ has not returned?

One thing is for certain, regardless when the great white throne judgment occurs, Christ has to physically leave heaven, meaning the 2nd coming, before it can occur. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. Can't fulfill that prior to the great white throne judgment. You tell me then, where would this place Christ?

Matthew 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

Even though I disagree with those that conclude this is the great white throne judgment, one thing is for certain, this is not meaning in heaven where this sheep and goats judgment will be taking place. Clearly the last enemy death cannot already have been destroyed before this judgment takes place. I'm not saying the last enemy death is destroyed at this judgment then, but that this judgment proves Christ is bodily back on the earth before death is ever destroyed for forever.

DavidPT · Dec 20, 2017

claninja said:
2.) how is anyone alive in heaven currently (death defeated) if Christ has not returned?

What does this have to do with anything? Obviously those currently in hell awaiting the resurrection unto damnation, are alive as well, in some sense.

BABerean2 · Dec 20, 2017

DavidPT said:
Perhaps you need to go visit a modern day prison, and then tell the inmates there that they are not being punished. No doubt being shut up in prison compared to being cast into the lake of fire, that the latter is the harsher of the two. But that hardly makes being shut up in prison not a punishment then.

And it shall come to pass in that day, that the LORD shall punish the host of the high ones that are on high----and shall be shut up in the prison

shall punish---shall be shut up in the prison. I wonder if that is a contradiction? Is it a contradiction to punish and that punishing consisting of being shut up in the prison? Doesn't sound like a contradiction to me.

BTW, where does the text even mention the lake of fire in Isaiah 24? The only thing it mentions that resembles being punished is being shut up in the prison, and the punishing of the kings of the earth. Except for the part about and after many days shall they be visited, that involves punishing too, except it is not clear in that verse as to what that is referring to. This is where one needs to interpret that in light of what has been disclosed in the NT, in this case, particularly Revelation 20.

I have a friend who worked in a local prison.
It is nothing like the dungeons of ancient times.
The prisoners have television, three meals a day, clothing.
They are warm in the winter and cool in the summer.
It may be quite a bit better than the life of factory workers in some third world countries.

Compare that to whatever punishment you think God has planned for the wicked at the final judgment, if you think I referred to the lake of fire incorrectly...

.

Truth7t7 · Dec 20, 2017

claninja said:
1.) is Christ in heaven or on earth until his enemies are defeated?

2.) how is anyone alive in heaven currently (death defeated) if Christ has not returned?

1. Jesus Chris will touch down on Mt. Olivet, as the world is destroyed by his fire in judgment, as the eternal new heaven, earth, Jerusalem are revealed, judgment complete all in the twinkling of an eye.

2. Death being swallowed up in victory, simply means this physical earth, with human life will be passed away, the eternal lake of fire, and eternal kingdom has started in the glorified immortal body.

iamlamad · Dec 20, 2017

DavidPT said:
You want us to believe that the righteous will be under the threat of plagues throughout all eternity if they refuse to keep the feast of tabernacles? What righteous person remaining after Christ has returned could possibly have a desire to make themselves enemies of God by not doing what He has commanded? Seriously.

Did you not read that at the end of the 1000 years, a huge group of people turn against Him and want to fight? How hard then is it to believe people will not want to travel to Jerusalem for a feast? Do you think John wasted words?

DavidPT · Dec 20, 2017

iamlamad said:
Did you not read that at the end of the 1000 years, a huge group of people turn against Him and want to fight? How hard then is it to believe people will not want to travel to Jerusalem for a feast? Do you think John wasted words?

You are perhaps misunderstanding me somewhere, or maybe I am misunderstanding you somewhere instead? I'm Premil and what you conclude here is exactly what I conclude. The other poster though, he apparently thinks these things will be like that for all eternity, thus I was arguing against that idea.

Or do you perhaps too think people will not want to travel to Jerusalem for a feast, that this will be the case throughout all eternity, rather than it only being the case for a thousand years?

DavidPT · Dec 20, 2017

BABerean2 said:
I have a friend who worked in a local prison.
It is nothing like the dungeons of ancient times.
The prisoners have television, three meals a day, clothing.
They are warm in the winter and cool in the summer.
It may be quite a bit better than the life of factory workers in some third world countries.

Compare that to whatever punishment you think God has planned for the wicked at the final judgment, if you think I referred to the lake of fire incorrectly...

.

Maybe living in prison these days might be somewhat of a luxury to those living in there, that me taking your word for it, but I doubt that the prison they are shut up in according to Isaiah 24:22, has these same luxurious accommodations.

Cat Loaf You · Dec 21, 2017

keras said:
It is plain to anyone that Revelation does refer back at times to previously stated events.
One obvious one is Revelation 6:12-17, the Sixth Seal, and Revelation 14:17-20, the Winepress of God. They are both describing the same Judgement/ punishment of God.

DavidPT is quite correct that there is a 1000 year gap between 1 Corinthians 15:23 and 24.
There is only one time that immortality is given to those whose names are in the Book of Life; at the Great White Throne Judgement, when Death is abolished.

Death was defeated at Cross not at White Trone

BABerean2 · Dec 21, 2017

DavidPT said:
Maybe living in prison these days might be somewhat of a luxury to those living in there, that me taking your word for it, but I doubt that the prison they are shut up in according to Isaiah 24:22, has these same luxurious accommodations.

When we have to use our personal interpretation of Old Testament passages to make our doctrine work, we are often promoting error.

The New Testament is the final revelation from God.
We should use the clear passages of the New Testament writers to interpret the less clear passages from the Old Testament, instead of vice-versa.

In the two verses below we find that the angels which sinned have been bound in chains of darkness, to be reserved unto the judgment.
How could the text be any clearer?

2Pe_2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

Jud_1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

.

PeaceJoyLove · Dec 21, 2017

DavidPT said:
1 Corinthians 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

Interestingly, verse 23 mentions nothing about the unsaved as well. But if we look at verse 25 and 26 though, the unsaved are clearly in mind there.

1 Corinthians 15:25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

Verse 26 indicates that the last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Obviously then, until Revelation 20:14 is fulfilled first, the fulfillment of 1 Corinthians 15:24 can't precede this. What needs to be detemined now, when is Revelation 20:14 meaning in relation to 1 Corinthians 15:23?

Let's consider Zechariah 14 for a moment.

Zechariah 14:16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.
18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

This is clearly meaning after the 2nd coming has occurred, and that these left of the nations couldn't possibly be blessed saints who have put on immortality. They have to be mortals then. No mortal person can live forever. This tells us that death has not yet been destroyed at this point, thus 1 Corinthians 15:24 has not yet been fulfilled.

Isaiah 60:12 For the nation and kingdom that will not serve thee shall perish; yea, those nations shall be utterly wasted.

This too is meaning after 1 Corinthians 15:23 has already been fulfilled. This verse also proves death has not yet been destroyed at this point.

So based on the above alone, isn't this enough to prove there has to be a gap between 1 Corinthians 15:23 and verse 24? What gap might explain it then? How about the thousand years and satan's little season? Which BTW, reminds me of the following.

Isaiah 24:21 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the LORD shall punish the host of the high ones that are on high, and the kings of the earth upon the earth.
22 And they shall be gathered together, as prisoners are gathered in the pit, and shall be shut up in the prison, and after many days shall they be visited.

Let's do some comparing here.

that the LORD shall punish the host of the high ones that are on high, and the kings of the earth upon the earth(Isaiah 24:21)

Compared with----

Revelation 19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
Revelation 19:21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.-----the LORD shall punish the kings of the earth upon the earth(Isaiah 24:21)

Revelation 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit----the LORD shall punish the host of the high ones that are on high---And they shall be gathered together, as prisoners are gathered in the pit, and shall be shut up in the prison(Isaiah 24:21-22)

Obviously, if satan gets cast into the pit, so would his angels, thus these combined explain the 'they' in Isaiah 24:22.

Revelation 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever----and after many days shall they be visited(Isaiah 24:22)

Per a position such as Amil, they have no logical answer for this part----and after many days shall they be visited(Isaiah 24:22).

So with this now added to what I already submitted before this, how can there not be a gap between 1 Corinthians 15:23 and verse 24, and this gap not be the thousand years and satan's little season?

1 Corinthians 15:20-22 But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.…

It was spiritual death (perception of being separated from God) that happened in the garden and it is that eyesight change being restored. It is that mind that is being renewed within. As Paul said - So we do not lose heart. Though our outer self is wasting away, our inner self is being renewed day by day.

There were three feasts that required pilgrimage to Jerusalem in Biblical times...Passover (coming out of Egypt), Weeks (harvest) and Tabernacles (8th day, in-gathering). We are the temple not made with human hands. New Jerusalem is spiritual and truth that relates to our soul journey/process taking place within...as are the keeping of the feasts.

The Passover sacrifice was done in the evening (The LORD's Day goes from darkness to light) and all flesh not consumed by morning had to be burned up by fire...

Perceiving with the five senses (carnal) is to measure and divide the things of God (who is spirit) that are immeasurable and infinite. Perceiving the spirit as something outside of 'self' is to not be one (duality within)...

A Day of the Lord is as a thousand years...Adam lived 930 years, falling short by 70...which is a truth relating to our soul/process taking place within...man thinks in literal terms and time lines. God is outside time and space. Spiritually asleep and being awakened (Adam was placed in a deep slumber...) Jesus speaks about becoming single of eye and becoming blind that we might 'see'...all internal truths...To carry truth high and lifted up (as a cross) becomes an open door to heaven that no man can shut. The flip side of the same coin, a truth cast down (five senses perceiving) becomes a bottomless pit with serpents that bite. (For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive...each man in his own order...all part of the process taking place within to waking up to the truth we have always been but didn't know we were...a son (no gender implied)...

We need to let scripture interpret scripture, not try to twist it to fit our own reality/experience. By faith (believing the promises are true and will come to pass (internal/inner truth being revealed) is faith and He can only give us what we see/believe possible...) The whole of scripture is the narrative of the process taking place, Israel a picture with our soul likened to the land or a as a son, or two women (harlot and a virgin) or two mountains (Sinai and Zion)...wandering between the two until all we are left with is ONE.

DavidPT · Dec 21, 2017

PeaceJoyLove said:
We need to let scripture interpret scripture, not try to twist it to fit our own reality/experience.

I notice a lot of folks around here give great advice like this, but then when one examines some of their conclusions as to what this Scripture means, or that one means, etc, such as some of your conclusions in this post I'm addressing, I'm left wondering why they too are not following their own advice at times, but expect everyone else to?

claninja · Dec 21, 2017

DavidPT said:
One thing is for certain, regardless when the great white throne judgment occurs, Christ has to physically leave heaven, meaning the 2nd coming, before it can occur. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. Can't fulfill that prior to the great white throne judgment. You tell me then, where would this place Christ?

Christ is at the right hand of the Father, in heaven, until his enemies are made a footstool.

For David did not ascend into the heavens, but he himself says, “‘The Lord said to my Lord, “Sit at my right hand, until I make your enemies your footstool.”’
Acts 2:34-35

And the last enemy to be put under his feet is death. So Christ is at the right hand of the Father, in heaven, until death is put under his feet

For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy to be destroyed is death.
1 Corinthians 15:25-26

DavidPT said:
Even though I disagree with those that conclude this is the great white throne judgment, one thing is for certain, this is not meaning in heaven where this sheep and goats judgment will be taking place. Clearly the last enemy death cannot already have been destroyed before this judgment takes place. I'm not saying the last enemy death is destroyed at this judgment then, but that this judgment proves Christ is bodily back on the earth before death is ever destroyed for forever

How can Christ come back to the earth before death is destroyed, if he must be in heaven until all his enemies are made a footstool?

Is there a gap between 1 Corinthians 15:23 and verse 24?

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