OSAS Discussion

What do you believe the OSAS doctrine teaches?

  • God's grace allows a christian to sin as much as they wish without fear of consequence.

  • God's grace is provided to christians in order to overlook a christian's sin in their walk with God.

  • God's grace is provided as a means of forbearance by God. Not permission to sin.

  • OSAS teaches it is perfectly ok to continue to sin

  • OSAS teaches we are not without sin, and we are still God's child in our personal walk with Christ.

  • OSAS teaches there is no sin once you have been saved, and you can no longer be condemned.

  • Works are necessary, but only grace merits salvation.

  • Works are more important than grace

  • Works are not as important as grace

  • Works are unimportant at all. All you need is grace


Results are only viewable after voting.

Buzz_B

Well-Known Member
Oct 15, 2017
894
161
70
Northwest Ohio
✟13,943.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Divorced
Again, the statement that there is only one temple at a time is completely false and the scripture speaks specifically that the believers are the temple of God. If anyone just reads these verses as they written they will see, if they have eyes to see, that v18 every sin that a man does is outside the body, but he who commits sexual immorality sins against his own body, therefore the body of the man is the temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you clearly is speaking of the one man just as every person in the body of Christ is the temple of the Holy Spirit and God because all are bought with the same price and Jesus paid the cost. Read the verses quoted from 1 Cor 6:18-20 Flee sexual immorality. Every sin that a man does is outside the body, but he who commits sexual immorality sins against his own body. 19 Or do you not know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and you are not your own? 20 For you were bought at a price; therefore glorify God in your body and in your spirit, which are God’s.

Quit declaring the written words of God are wrong and just admit what it says with black letters on white paper. Every saint is a stone and all together they make the one temple of God. Unity of the believers we make up the temple of God. That is why George Whitefield would not pastor a church in the early 18th century, because he said that people would begin to believe that the building was the church when he knew that the saints are the building where God resides in those indwelt by the Holy Spirit and the Godhead. Every believer should know that where God dwells is in His temple and His called out ones are His temple. You are one of those spoken of, by George:scratch:
I will speak of your statement ("If anyone just reads these verses as they written they will see, if they have eyes to see, that v18 every sin that a man does is outside the body, but he who commits sexual immorality sins against his own body, therefore the body of the man is the temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you clearly is speaking of the one man just as every person in the body of Christ is the temple of the Holy Spirit and God because all are bought with the same price and Jesus paid the cost"), at the end of this post:

I understand why you think that but you are wrong. The scripture you cite (1 Cor 6:18-20) uses the plural number Greek pronoun, "humon", translated as, "your", and the singular number indefinite article, "to'" and singular number noun, "soma", which into English is translated correctly there in that text, BUT, you are looking at that word, "your", and applying English grammar riles which do not match up with the Greek grammar rules concerning it. If Paul meant your individual body, in the Greek he would have used a singular number pronoun like "sou" (thy) to indicate he was speaking to each one of the congregation as an individual just as he did when speaking of individuals mouths and hearts at Romans 10:8. The plural Greek pronoun must be understood as meaning the group as one body or you are violating the Greek grammar. In English the words, "you" and "your" and "yours" are understood as usually meaning an individual and that is what causes you (that is, thee) to make the mistake you (that is, thee) are making. The KJV does not use words like "thee", "thou", "thy", and "thine" just to be archaic as so many think. The preface tells us that "ye", "you", "your", and "yours" are always translations of Greek plural number pronouns whereas "thee", "thou", "thy", and "thine" are always translations of Greek singular number pronouns. Not all Bibles take the time to differentiate that for us as does the KJV but some do by capitalizing YOU and so forth when plural and printing them in the lower case when singular.

Our interpretation of the Greek New Testament Bible often becomes hindered when we always try to apply English grammar rules to the text just because it has been translated into English. The two languages (Greek and English) are not exactly interchangeable in every way.

Also Greek indefinite articles can cause some confusion from translator to translator, so we need a basic understanding of them. Whether the grammatical article which often proceeds a noun is plural or singular in number is a reliable way of knowing the number of the noun which it proceeds, whether plural or singular. Of course the final letter or two of the noun itself in Greek will also indicate whether the word is plural or singular if it has been properly written, but the point is that the number of the grammatical article always must be the same as the noun it directs attention to. And so we can just scope the grammatical article from the Greek text when it is used as to whether it is plural or singular and we will know whether we should translate the noun as a singular number or as a plural number.

Showing the effect of false belief, the following are butchered translations of 1 Corinthians 6:19

New International Version
“Do you not know that your bodies are temples of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own”

Weymouth New Testament
Or do you not know that your bodies are a sanctuary of the Holy Spirit who is within you--the Spirit whom you have from God?

Those translators took unauthorized liberty and stepped away from the Greek grammar's rendering that text. You will notice that most versions do not translate “to' soma” as “bodies” plural. For it is undeniably clear that both the word “soma” (body) and the indefinite article “to'” proceeding it are singular number in the Greek text of 1 Corinthians 6:19. But we must also know and apply what I spoke of at the beginning of this post. For if we apply an English concept of grammar to the "your" in places like as 1Corinthians 6:19 we cannot know the correct understanding of what Paul there said.

Now, you said:
iwbswiaihl said:
If anyone just reads these verses as they written they will see, if they have eyes to see, that v18 every sin that a man does is outside the body, but he who commits sexual immorality sins against his own body, therefore the body of the man is the temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you clearly is speaking of the one man just as every person in the body of Christ is the temple of the Holy Spirit and God because all are bought with the same price and Jesus paid the cost.

That is another error of logic on your part. Please allow me to explain how so.

You are one body in Christ and your bodies merely members of that temple of which he said, "In three days I will build it up again.":
1 Corinthians 6:15 "Know ye not that your bodies are the members of Christ? shall I then take the members of Christ, and make them the members of an harlot? God forbid."
Surely you know that all used in the temple must be kept clean (sanctified)? Whether it be a utensil, or a vase or vessel, or a stone used as part of that temple's walls, or a human that enters into it, all must be sanctified (cleaned) so that nothing pollutes God's temple. We must keep our bodies as members of Christ's body clean so that we do not pollute that temple.

Can we keep what is to be joined in Christ clean if we join our individual bodies to harlots?
1 Corinthians 6:16 What? know ye not that he which is joined to an harlot is one body? for two, saith he, shall be one flesh.
17 But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.
No we cannot keep ourselves fit to be joined in Christ if we have joined our self to a harlot. We cannot be one body with a harlot and one body also with Christ can we? And we must be one spirit with Christ but how shall we do that and our spirit willing give our individual body to a harlot at the same time?

Yes indeed it is against our own individual body rendering it unfit to be joined with Christ. And we can only become a member of God's temple if we keep our individual body clean (sanctified).
18 Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body.
The word body being singular in the Greek text here in verse 18 is understood correctly as our individual body because it is the body of the singular number "a man". That will change in verses 19 and 20 (if you care to apply the proper Greek rules of grammar, for the singular number "body" is defined by plural Greek pronouns).

Christ's body is on loan to us as God's grace:
19 What? know ye<[the congregation to whom he is speaking] not that your<[the congregation to whom he is speaking] body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you<[the congregation to whom he is speaking], which ye<[the congregation to whom he is speaking] have of God, and ye<[the congregation to whom he is speaking] are not your<[the congregation to whom he is speaking] own?

And here is how Christ's body came to be on loan to us as God's grace:
20 For ye<[the congregation to whom he is speaking] are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your<[the congregation to whom he is speaking] body, and in your<[the congregation to whom he is speaking] spirit, which are God's.
Notice there "and in your spirit". Paul told us in verse 17 "But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit." So you cannot get past the fact that he is talking about our oneness of body and spirit in Christ as members of the one true temple which is Christ's body and is also described by Paul at Ephesians 2:19-22. Becuse it is Christ's body and we are built up upon him, he is called the chief corner or foundation stone.

Hope this has helped. After all, we don't want to be usurping Christ as that temple of God, do we. We do not want to be so independent that way for we are nothing outside of him and in no way can be the temple by our lone self. We can only be joined into the one true temple in Christ. All else is as fighting against that temple.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Buzz_B

Well-Known Member
Oct 15, 2017
894
161
70
Northwest Ohio
✟13,943.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Divorced
I do very much sympathize with you all for how difficult our imperfection of sin has made this.

Just remember that by ourselves we are nothing.

Many are hindered in having that humble attitude believing they their own selves are a temple of God. How could they not deep inside feel that made them special? Such false beliefs work against that humble attitude we need to have, that we of our self are nothing. All is Christ and only in Christ can we be in or even have part of God's temple.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

iwbswiaihl2

Newbie
Aug 18, 2007
1,694
259
✟32,887.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
He is talking to a group, so plural but then to those that may be committing such sin, your own body as in 1 Cor 6:16 Or do you not know that he who is joined to a harlot is one body with her? For “the two,” He says, “shall become one flesh. The two become one, not the plural whole group + her become one. Basic structure is to be applied, its not the rocket science that you try to make it. Its remedial sentence structure, all languages follow it. Your reasoning destroys your whole argument. Face the facts, you think you know more than you can prove by scripture, the ones you show and speak of normally violate the context of what you post.
 
Upvote 0

aiki

Regular Member
Feb 16, 2007
10,874
4,348
Winnipeg
✟236,528.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
I understand why you think you see what you do. You are pushing up off a corrupted foundation. And I understand you will claim you are not as you believe you are building on the foundation of Christ. Unfortunately, believing you are and actually doing so are two different things.

As I have pointed out already to you, merely making assertions does not constitute having proved them.

You have your minds seeing things differently than they really are because of much other false doctrine, such as the bogus idea that your individual bodies are temples of God and God literally indwells you individually.

??? Bogus idea? Interesting...Are you not reading your Bible?

Romans 8:9-11
9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.
10 And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.

John 14:17
17 the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you.


Galatians 2:20
20 I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me.


1 John 2:27
27 But the anointing which you have received from Him abides in you, and you do not need that anyone teach you; but as the same anointing teaches you concerning all things, and is true, and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you will abide in Him.


John 7:37-39
37 On the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out, saying, "If anyone thirsts, let him come to Me and drink.
38 He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water."
39 But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.


Acts 2:4
4 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.


Acts 4:8
8 Then Peter, filled with the Holy Spirit, said to them...


Acts 6:3
3 Therefore, brethren, seek out from among you seven men of good reputation, full of the Holy Spirit and wisdom, whom we may appoint over this business;


Acts 7:55
55 But he, being full of the Holy Spirit, gazed into heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God,


Acts 8:15-17
15 who, when they had come down, prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit.
16 For as yet He had fallen upon none of them. They had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
17 Then they laid hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit.


Acts 11:24
24 For he was a good man, full of the Holy Spirit and of faith. And a great many people were added to the Lord.


And so on.

We never see more than one of temple in existence at any one time throughout the history of ancient Israel. And we learn important things from this.

This is called "majoring on a minor."

What should we learn form that? It is a warning example to us not to take the body of Christ for granted by resorting back to sin in either passive or direct hard nose defiance of God because we can lose access to that temple which is Christ's body and return to our old bondage, even as those of ancient Israel lost access to their physical temple at different points in time and went into bondage.

Chapter and verse, please. Where in all of the Bible is what you've said here actually clearly stated? No where, as far as I'm aware. You've taken this odd notion of yours about the temple and expanded it beyond all proper proportion, even going so far as to deny the plain teaching of Scripture in order to sustain it. Are you attending a church regularly? Usually, biblically off-base ideas like the one you've offered come from those who are not part of a community of believers, who are islands unto themselves, and made fertile ground for false doctrine by their isolation. Is this you?

There is one God and there is one temple.

In three distinct Persons: Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

One God only needs one temple.

And how about a tri-partite God? If you're using this one-to-one ratio, how many temples should He have? And what do you do with the fact that God is everywhere present at all times? Things can get a bit...sticky when you try to put God in a box.

You have chosen to ignore much of what I posted in post 192. You rationalize God's words to you away. You are like a vessel with its own water supply built into it base. That supply built into its base represents you own knowledge formulated of your own wisdom. There is another water supply above you pouring water upon your open rim but you have fill yourself so quickly of your own water supply at your base that you are already filled and so that water from above rolls right over the edge of your rim and is lost to you.

Once more: Simply saying so doesn't make it so. See above.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: iwbswiaihl2
Upvote 0

Buzz_B

Well-Known Member
Oct 15, 2017
894
161
70
Northwest Ohio
✟13,943.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Divorced
He is talking to a group, so plural but then to those that may be committing such sin, your own body as in 1 Cor 6:16 Or do you not know that he who is joined to a harlot is one body with her? For “the two,” He says, “shall become one flesh. The two become one, not the plural whole group + her become one. Basic structure is to be applied, its not the rocket science that you try to make it. Its remedial sentence structure, all languages follow it. Your reasoning destroys your whole argument. Face the facts, you think you know more than you can prove by scripture, the ones you show and speak of normally violate the context of what you post.
You do not know of what you speak. Literally, 16 reads:

ee ouk oidate hoti ho kollwmenos tee inappropriate contentee hen swma estin esontai gar pheesin hoi duo eis sarka mian

OR NOT HAVE YOU KNOWN THAT THE (ONE) MAKING SELF STICK TO THE HARLOT ONE BODY HE IS? THEY WILL BE FOR, SAYS HE, THE TWO INTO FLESH ONE.

I have emboldened and colored the parts where that verse has shifted away from the plural pronoun and to the singular before introducing the "one body".

Now if you care about Christ then you want to become one with Christ. Right? And that would make you one body with Christ. Right? And the point is that thee cannot do that if thee has already made thy self "THE (ONE) joined to an harlot and thus ONE BODY with a harlot, for Christ is holy and would vomit you out of his mouth if you tried to be both a part of him and part of a harlot. Remember the messages to the churches?

When Paul in the text has not shifted away from the plural pronoun as he did in verse 16, you must see him as speaking to the congregation as a whole unit. Otherwise you are just inventing your own rules to allow yourself whatever interpretation you prefer.

By what I am showing you, God is giving you a chance. It would be wise to take it.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Buzz_B

Well-Known Member
Oct 15, 2017
894
161
70
Northwest Ohio
✟13,943.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Divorced
As I have pointed out already to you, merely making assertions does not constitute having proved them.



??? Bogus idea? Interesting...Are you not reading your Bible?

Romans 8:9-11
9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.
10 And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.

John 14:17
17 the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you.


Galatians 2:20
20 I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me.


1 John 2:27
27 But the anointing which you have received from Him abides in you, and you do not need that anyone teach you; but as the same anointing teaches you concerning all things, and is true, and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you will abide in Him.


John 7:37-39
37 On the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out, saying, "If anyone thirsts, let him come to Me and drink.
38 He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water."
39 But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.


Acts 2:4
4 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.


Acts 4:8
8 Then Peter, filled with the Holy Spirit, said to them...


Acts 6:3
3 Therefore, brethren, seek out from among you seven men of good reputation, full of the Holy Spirit and wisdom, whom we may appoint over this business;


Acts 7:55
55 But he, being full of the Holy Spirit, gazed into heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God,


Acts 8:15-17
15 who, when they had come down, prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit.
16 For as yet He had fallen upon none of them. They had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
17 Then they laid hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit.


Acts 11:24
24 For he was a good man, full of the Holy Spirit and of faith. And a great many people were added to the Lord.


And so on.



This is called "majoring on a minor."



Chapter and verse, please. Where in all of the Bible is what you've said here actually clearly stated? No where, as far as I'm aware. You've taken this odd notion of yours about the temple and expanded it beyond all proper proportion, even going so far as to deny the plain teaching of Scripture in order to sustain it. Are you attending a church regularly? Usually, biblically off-base ideas like the one you've offered come from those who are not part of a community of believers, who are islands unto themselves, and made fertile ground for false doctrine by their isolation. Is this you?



In three distinct Persons: Father, Son and Holy Spirit.



And how about a tri-partite God? If you're using this one-to-one ratio, how many temples should He have? And what do you do with the fact that God is everywhere present at all times? Things can get a bit...sticky when you try to put God in a box.



Once more: Simply saying so doesn't make it so. See above.
You are another one that is ignorant of the language.

But you don't really care.

Oh well, it is you that will have to explain yourself before the judgment seat. I won't have to answer for you nor you for me.

Take for example John 14:17

Which disciple is named you? He is talking to them all using a plural pronoun and you who obviously either have never been educated in Greek or wasted a seat in the classroom are applying English grammar rules to understand what Christ said. But you would rather defend what you are doing wrong as though it is right. Because you don't really care, do you.

The translators are at fault, too. For they know that the preposition they have translated as "in" can also be translated as "among" as an extension of "within", as "within" the group denoted by the plural pronoun. But from what I see none of you really care. I have gotten my education and can see quite clearly what you are doing but you do not even care to look.

If you only wanted to, I have given you enough information in the last few posts that you could reconsider all of those texts you cited in you last post and come up with a better understanding. So I have done my part and I think it time that I move on. There is no point in getting bogged down by those who are only proving to cast the pearls of what I share back at me as if they are stones. You have the info now and when you get ready (if you ever do get ready) all you need do is review it and begin applying it. For charts on case, number, gender of Koine' Greek prepositions you should be able to find a chart on the web to assist you. If not, track me down and I will post one for you.

I thought of one more thing I should add for you. That is the subject of perspective in different languages. In English if someone calls for me to come to them, I would reply, "I am coming." And if I am leaving their presence I may tell them, "I am going." But if I were to speak the words in Spanish it works just the opposite. In Spanish the word we translate "coming" is perceived by the listener as meaning I am going away. And if I say "I am going" they perceive as meaning I am going to them.

That is the situation we have with Greek verses English. It is not adequate just to translate the words from Greek to English. We must learn and apply the Greek perspective. For applying the English perspective does not always fit what is said in Greek. As with Spanish, just because we translate by a certain English word does not always mean the Greek has the same perspective of that word as in English. You can check this out for yourself now that I have informed you of it.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

aiki

Regular Member
Feb 16, 2007
10,874
4,348
Winnipeg
✟236,528.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
You are another one that is ignorant of the language.

And how do you know that, exactly? Because I disagree with your thinking? It seems the majority of Bible translators also disagree with you. Are they, too, "ignorant of the language"? One wonders how so many language-ignorant translators got work translating the Bible.

But you don't really care.

If I didn't care, I wouldn't have bothered interacting with your ideas. We aren't obliged to accept your thinking simply because you've asserted it, you know.

Oh well, it is you that will have to explain yourself before the judgment seat. I won't have to answer for you nor you for me.

Amen!

Take for example John 14:17

Nah, take a crack at, say, Acts 2:4 or Acts 11:24. I'm very curious how you'll squirm around what they clearly say.

He is talking to them all using a plural pronoun and you who obviously either have never been educated in Greek or wasted a seat in the classroom are applying English grammar rules to understand what Christ said.

Uh huh. It's been observed that those who resort to ad hominem do so because they have no other recourse in defense of their argument. You have absolutely no idea what the scope of my education is. None. Your total ignorance in this regard has given you no pause, however, in making assertions about me. Interesting, that.

The translators are at fault, too. For they know that the preposition they have translated as "in" can also be translated as "among" as an extension of "within", as "within" the group denoted by the plural pronoun. But from what I see none of you really care. I have gotten my education and can see quite clearly what you are doing but you do not even care to look.

What I see is one man claiming he has got it right where all (or most) expert translators of the Bible have got it wrong. That's a big red flag, as far as I'm concerned. You have offered no good reason so far to justify my casting aside the majority consensus in favor of the lone, dissenting voice in regards to proper translation of Scripture.

If you only wanted to, I have given you enough information in the last few posts that you could reconsider all of those texts you cited in you last post and come up with a better understanding.

You've explained a different translation of terms than is found commonly in modern translations of the Bible but you have not by any means established that your translation is better.

So I have done my part and I think it time that I move on. There is no point in getting bogged down by those who are only proving to cast the pearls of what I share back at me as if they are stones.

Sounds like someone who is trying to escape an untenable situation without appearing to be doing so.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

iwbswiaihl2

Newbie
Aug 18, 2007
1,694
259
✟32,887.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Exactly what I was thinking>:oldthumbsup: It is kinda like trying to show someone their mistakes and they just keep on keeping on! Then I decide to pass them on to another. Some just keep getting passed along and they wonder why that keeps happening? :scratch: I have enjoyed your answers and have a great Christmas.
 
Upvote 0

Buzz_B

Well-Known Member
Oct 15, 2017
894
161
70
Northwest Ohio
✟13,943.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Divorced
And how do you know that, exactly? Because I disagree with your thinking? It seems the majority of Bible translators also disagree with you. Are they, too, "ignorant of the language"? One wonders how so many language-ignorant translators got work translating the Bible.
A little leaven, leaventh the whole lump, and most of these translators sprang up from their various religious affiliations which subtly influenced their opinions. There is a significant amount of disagreement between them for that reason. For that reason some would agree with me and some wouldn't. That is to be expected. When one has certain preconceived beliefs, inwardly their paradigm adds its particular subtle tint to what they feel they see.
That is why we need to learn to do what is called, 'paradigm shifting.' And that is not always easy, for it is difficult to shift away from a sub-conscious view we are not fully aware of. However, you will see it as you believe it is, for that is the coloration upon what you think you see, caused of your paradigm. So, let us get onto your challenge.

Nah, take a crack at, say, Acts 2:4 or Acts 11:24. I'm very curious how you'll squirm around what they clearly say.
This is probably a waste of time because you will likely just argue with me being as you do not understand enough about the word, "spirit", and the some seven different ways it is used in Scripture based off its root meaning, which is merely, "something unable to be directly seen with the physical eye but the existence of which is proved by the work it accomplishes."

If your spirit proves humble enough to really reason along with what is spoken you then stand a chance to understand.

Now you know I was not speaking of the Holy Spirit in my above sentence being as I did not capitalize it and you likely can understand that the words, "spirit", and, "disposition" (or, "temperment", etc), can be used interchangeably. In the Bible the word, "spirit", often is just referring to a man's disposition. When God's spirit exerts a positive influence upon a man's thinking, then a man's spirit or disposition is made holy by its association with God's spirit. It is a principle comparable to, "Bad company ruins good habits". Associating with good company, (and one can get no better company than God's Holy Spirit), influences a man's spirit so that the man's spirit becomes holy. It is kind of a, 'We are what we eat', sort of a thing, which is a huge part of why we must make the life of Jesus body as he lived in it in the flesh, our bread which we hunger for and eat of regularly. When God's Holy Spirit exerts its power over us and we joyfully receive it rather than grieving it, it can be said that we have become filled with holy spirit. Notice I did not capitalize holy spirit there. That is because using the preposition with does mean the condition our spirit has us filled with by that holy association with God's Holy spirit. I could use the preposition "with" there as it expresses who or what our association is with. But if I said, we have become "filled of Holy Spirit", you see I capitalize it because the preposition "of"directs attention to the source we are associating with which is doing the filling of us, that being God's Holy Spirit which fills us with good things by our spirit's association with it so that it renders our spirit holy.

And you probably of course know that there was rarely ever any capitalization used in the Greek text of our Bibles and so the translator must decide which is proper to use when and where.

Now Westcott-Hort are respected translators and in their direct rendering of Acts 2:4 they translate "pneumatos" as "of Holy Spirit" recognizing the genitive case which has been used ever since verse one in that text. So they direct the attention to the source which generates the filling. But as the KJV and many other translations render exegesis it they chose to use the preposition "with" and you interpret that to mean that God's Holy Spirit literally entered itself into us to dwell not realizing it is totally unnecessary for it to do so. There is no difference in the ability and power of the Holy Spirit when it dwells among all within the body of Christ where it then exerts a powerful influence over the body of Christ and all of its members which efficiently offsets the power of the air of this world ruled by the spirit of sin. And that is the exact offset from the influence of the power of the wicked air of this world that God planned for and purposed to exist for us in Christ.

In either of those verses you cite our association by spirit with God's Holy Spirit does indeed fill us with its gifts in many forms. I take the broad context perspective that God's goal is to offset the evil power in the air of this world which defeats us, thus giving us the chance free from that wicked influence to prove what is really the desire of our hearts, rather than doing it all for us which proves nothing about us. And I am supported by the declension of the case in those texts you have cited.

But, whether you wish to consider what I have shared or not, is not in my hands. God makes it grow.

Edit: And just to add a closing comment or two:

(1) My view harmonizes with Leviticus 26:12 "And I will walk among you, and will be your God, and ye shall be my people."

Paul expressed that thought at 2 Corinthians 6:16 but bias has moved those that did the exegesis to not word it like the prophecies in the Old Testament even though that is what Paul was quoting from. "I will dwell in them" them should read, "I will dwell among them." The OT proves that for us so that we do not have to guess at the correct translation in the Greek. And I am telling you the Greek grammar there does make that a more preferable translation.

Ezekiel 37:27 "My tabernacle also shall be with them: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be my people."

God dwells in his temple and therefore if God walks among his people as the OT says, they as a people are his temple.

When you teach people that their own bodies are the temple of God and that God literally dwells in them, perhaps that does not cause you to get puffed in pride, but, for many, believing that does puff them up in pride, And it is a subtle pride they feel totally justified to have. That is why they refuse to listen so as to receive from God's messengers whom they quickly dismiss for not believing as they do, or, just trust that the spirit they feel is telling them all they need and so they need nothing from anyone else. Their attitude is that they do not need God to send them help. They have God in them. They become such as love to be praised because it makes them feel good but they hardly accept correction from external sources. That is how many who believe what you believe are affected by that belief and that angers God. All that was needed to be done was to stay true to the OT knowing that not one word of God fails and not interpret the NT independent of the OT. Then our understanding comes of God's guidance through his Spirit upon the words of the OT. But what happens is that we got carried away by pride thinking our understanding proved God's spirit was in us.

Showing it is not a literal indwelling, but by the love we learn from Christ through our faith in him as our Messiah, the Son of God:
Ephesians 3:17-19 "That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love,
18 May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height;
19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God."

That God does not literally dwell in us, but with us, as I have been saying, is shown, here: Revelation 21:3 "And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God."

He need only replace the influence which has been working against us, that power in the air caused of Satan's rule and sin. That is adequate for the meek who really desire to be holy in honor of their heavenly Father.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

iwbswiaihl2

Newbie
Aug 18, 2007
1,694
259
✟32,887.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Rev 21:3 And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God". Some people read this and must not see that this is talking about when the new Jerusalem has come down and the saints will be in glory forever with our Lord. Taking it out of context will give a misunderstanding every time. We do not understand why someone that says they are well versed in the scriptures does not see this. Nevertheless, they did not see and understand that while on earth all the saints have the Holy Spirit dwelling in them as Jesus said more than once; John 17:20-23 “I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will believe in Me through their word; 21 that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me. 22 And the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just as We are one: 23 I in them, and You in Me; that they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that You have sent Me, and have loved them as You have loved Me.

The day of Pentecost, Acts 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance. Evidence of being saved the Holy Spirit dwells in all saints. Those who do have the Holy Spirit are not saved; Rom 8:9-10 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. 10 And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

Rev 21:1-4 Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea. 2 Then I saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God. 4 And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away.”

Rev 21:22 But I saw no temple in it, for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple.
Oh happy days, and on and on and on.............................................:clap::clap::amen:
 
Upvote 0

aiki

Regular Member
Feb 16, 2007
10,874
4,348
Winnipeg
✟236,528.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
A little leaven, leaventh the whole lump, and most of these translators sprang up from their various religious affiliations which subtly influenced their opinions.

But not you, right? You are utterly free of any and all such outside influence, I suppose. You haven't, though, shown why these affiliations and their influence are necessarily a "little leaven." They differ, perhaps, from you in what they understand Scripture to be saying, but why does this automatically mean they are "leaven"? When did not being of your point of view become the "leaven" of which Scripture speaks?

When one has certain preconceived beliefs, inwardly their paradigm adds its particular subtle tint to what they feel they see.

Including you, right? You definitely have some "preconceived beliefs."

That is why we need to learn to do what is called, 'paradigm shifting.' And that is not always easy, for it is difficult to shift away from a sub-conscious view we are not fully aware of.

Indeed. But when a paradigm shift is required, it must be strongly evident that such a shift is necessary, else why make it? Why should one make such a fundamental shift in their thinking if the reasons for doing so are not compelling?

How aware are you of your own "subconscious views"?

However, you will see it as you believe it is, for that is the coloration upon what you think you see, caused of your paradigm.

Which is as true for you as it may be for me.

This is probably a waste of time because you will likely just argue with me being as you do not understand enough about the word, "spirit", and the some seven different ways it is used in Scripture based off its root meaning, which is merely, "something unable to be directly seen with the physical eye but the existence of which is proved by the work it accomplishes."

This is the sort of preamble that attempts to make any opposing argument illegitimate without actually arguing properly for such a conclusion. You've essentially set up a "If you disagree with me, you must be wrong," state of affairs. It's a kind of "poisoning the well" which is a spurious form of argumentation.

If your spirit proves humble enough to really reason along with what is spoken you then stand a chance to understand.

This is essentially to say that if I disagree with you, it isn't because I think your reasoning and interpretation are faulty but that I am just too proud to see it your way. This is a kind of begging the question: you're assuming that the only proper response to your ideas is agreement with them. Nothing is more likely, however, to lead you into falsehood and deception than this kind of thinking.

So here are the verses I challenged you to synthesize with your view:

Acts 2:4
4 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit was giving them utterance.

Acts 11:24
24 for he was a good man, and full of the Holy Spirit and of faith. And considerable numbers were brought to the Lord.

And your reply:

Now you know I was not speaking of the Holy Spirit in my above sentence being as I did not capitalize it and you likely can understand that the words, "spirit", and, "disposition" (or, "temperment", etc), can be used interchangeably.

Yes, I understand that small "s" spirit may refer to disposition.

When God's spirit exerts a positive influence upon a man's thinking, then a man's spirit or disposition is made holy by its association with God's spirit.

And how, exactly, is this influence accomplished by God's Spirit? How does the Holy Spirit "associate" with a person's spirit? The two verses I cited clearly indicate that this is done by believers being filled by, or full of, the Spirit. Barnabas wasn't full of the influence of the Spirit, but was full of the Spirit Himself; the believers at Pentecost weren't filled with an association to the Spirit, but, again, with the Spirit Himself. These verse clearly indicate that the Spirit of God was within Barnabas and the believers who were gathered together at Pentecost.

It is kind of a, 'We are what we eat', sort of a thing, which is a huge part of why we must make the life of Jesus body as he lived in it in the flesh, our bread which we hunger for and eat of regularly.

Sorry, don't follow you here. Are you referring to Communion?

When God's Holy Spirit exerts its power over us and we joyfully receive it rather than grieving it, it can be said that we have become filled with holy spirit.

But this isn't what the verses I cited say. Acts 2:4 doesn't say the believers were filled with the power of the Spirit but with the Spirit Himself; Barnabas wasn't full of the power of the Spirit, but of the Spirit Himself. Do you see how your theological/doctrinal presupposition(s) are forcing you to eisegesis rather than to exegesis in your reading of these verses? Very dangerous.

The verses also refer to "the Holy Spirit" not "holy spirit." The definite article "the" refers to a particular member of a group or class. This particularity is entirely missing when you say "filled with holy spirit." The definite article also makes capitalizing Holy Spirit appropriate since what is being referred to is a specific and singular entity (ie. a proper noun).

Now Westcott-Hort are respected translators and in their direct rendering of Acts 2:4 they translate "pneumatos" as "of Holy Spirit" recognizing the genitive case which has been used ever since verse one in that text. So they direct the attention to the source which generates the filling. But as the KJV and many other translations render exegesis it they chose to use the preposition "with" and you interpret that to mean that God's Holy Spirit literally entered itself into us

Many others? I looked at some fifty or so other English Bible versions and not one of them renders Acts 2:4 "of the Holy Spirit." Every single one of them has "with the Holy Spirit." The only reason I can see that you are refusing the majority consensus in the rendering of this verse is that it defies your ideas about the Holy Spirit indwelling Christians, not that there has been some gross error in the translation of the verse.

There is no difference in the ability and power of the Holy Spirit when it dwells among all within the body of Christ where it then exerts a powerful influence over the body of Christ and all of its members

Except that this isn't what the Bible plainly states!

In either of those verses you cite our association by spirit with God's Holy Spirit does indeed fill us with its gifts in many forms.

This isn't what the verses say.

Galatians 2:20
20 I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me.
 
  • Winner
Reactions: iwbswiaihl2
Upvote 0

Buzz_B

Well-Known Member
Oct 15, 2017
894
161
70
Northwest Ohio
✟13,943.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Divorced
Rev 21:3 And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God". Some people read this and must not see that this is talking about when the new Jerusalem has come down and the saints will be in glory forever with our Lord. Taking it out of context will give a misunderstanding every time. We do not understand why someone that says they are well versed in the scriptures does not see this. Nevertheless, they did not see and understand that while on earth all the saints have the Holy Spirit dwelling in them as Jesus said more than once; John 17:20-23 “I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will believe in Me through their word; 21 that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me. 22 And the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just as We are one: 23 I in them, and You in Me; that they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that You have sent Me, and have loved them as You have loved Me.

The day of Pentecost, Acts 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance. Evidence of being saved the Holy Spirit dwells in all saints. Those who do have the Holy Spirit are not saved; Rom 8:9-10 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. 10 And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

Rev 21:1-4 Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea. 2 Then I saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God. 4 And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away.”

Rev 21:22 But I saw no temple in it, for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple.
Oh happy days, and on and on and on.............................................:clap::clap::amen:
2 Chronicles 6:18 "But will God in very deed dwell with men on the earth? behold, heaven and the heaven of heavens cannot contain thee; how much less this house which I have built!"

As I said, Your type will see things how ever they desire to see it and have no care whether they harmonize their view with the many conflicts their view causes with the OT.

I did not show up here to debate with such ignorance. You are quite welcome to believe what ever you feel you must as far as I am concerned. Whether you accept or reject what I have shared to you of God's word has nothing to do with why I was obligated to tell you.

The one belief we are discussing here is not by itself what will defeat your hopes, anyway.
 
Upvote 0

Blood Bought 1953

Ned Flander’s Buddy
Oct 21, 2017
2,278
1,471
71
Portsmouth
✟81,329.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
2 Chronicles 6:18 "But will God in very deed dwell with men on the earth? behold, heaven and the heaven of heavens cannot contain thee; how much less this house which I have built!"

As I said, Your type will see things how ever they desire to see it and have no care whether they harmonize their view with the many conflicts their view causes with the OT.

I did not show up here to debate with such ignorance. You are quite welcome to believe what ever you feel you must as far as I am concerned. Whether you accept or reject what I have shared to you of God's word has nothing to do with why I was obligated to tell you.

The one belief we are discussing here is not by itself what will defeat your hopes, anyway.


It was once said by somebody that” I would like to be as sure about just one thing as he is about everything “
 
Upvote 0

iwbswiaihl2

Newbie
Aug 18, 2007
1,694
259
✟32,887.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
2 Chronicles 6:18 "But will God in very deed dwell with men on the earth? behold, heaven and the heaven of heavens cannot contain thee; how much less this house which I have built!"

As I said, Your type will see things how ever they desire to see it and have no care whether they harmonize their view with the many conflicts their view causes with the OT.

I did not show up here to debate with such ignorance. You are quite welcome to believe what ever you feel you must as far as I am concerned. Whether you accept or reject what I have shared to you of God's word has nothing to do with why I was obligated to tell you.

The one belief we are discussing here is not by itself what will defeat your hopes, anyway.

I find it surprising that you would question the scripture itself, plus the text I showed and you yourself quoted, even though you misapplied it, from Rev 21 clearly says God will be there, and it seems that you have forgotten that Jesus is God. I imagine you was thinking that the Father is invisible and would not be seen, that would be true but Jesus will be in full glory and when we see Him we have seen the Father will still be true as Jesus told Phillip in John 14. If you pay special attention to My type and other types, you too would have already known what I am showing you here that has been revealed in scripture long ago. Type 1 standing by! :tutu::scratch:

P S Solomon even though he was very wise did not know that God the Son indeed would walk on earth as man. That is why he said that in 2 Chron 6 and he would have slapped his head and fell back if he had known the Lord Himself would live forever in the sight of all the saints, even Solomon.

After thinking about it, its not that surprising!:scratch:
 
Last edited:
  • Prayers
Reactions: aiki
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Buzz_B

Well-Known Member
Oct 15, 2017
894
161
70
Northwest Ohio
✟13,943.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Divorced
aiki said:
But this isn't what the verses I cited say. Acts 2:4 doesn't say the believers were filled with the power of the Spirit but with the Spirit Himself; Barnabas wasn't full of the power of the Spirit, but of the Spirit Himself. Do you see how your theological/doctrinal presupposition(s) are forcing you to eisegesis rather than to exegesis in your reading of these verses? Very dangerous..
The verses also refer to "the Holy Spirit" not "holy spirit." The definite article "the" refers to a particular member of a group or class. This particularity is entirely missing when you say "filled with holy spirit." The definite article also makes capitalizing Holy Spirit appropriate since what is being referred to is a specific and singular entity (ie. a proper noun).
The literal translation of Acts 2:3 is, as follows:

(((Acts 2:3
kai wphtheesan autois diamerizomenai glwssai
AND THEY WERE SEEN TO THEM BEING DISTRIBUTED TONGUES
hwsei puros kai ekathisen eph hena hekaston
AS IF OF FIRE, AND IT SAT DOWN UPON ONE EACH
autwn
OF THEM,)))

It is important to note that verse 3 shows that the thing doing the distributing "IT SAT DOWN UPON ONE EACH". Not "in", but, "upon" each of them.

The literal translation of Acts 2:4 is, as follows:
(((Acts 2:4
kai epleestheesan pantes pneumatos hagiou kai
AND THEY BECAME FILLED ALL OF SPIRIT HOLY, AND
eerxanto lalein heterais glwssais kathws
THEY STARTED TO BE SPEAKING TO DIFFERENT TONGUES ACCORDING AS
to pneuma edidou apophtheggesthai autois
THE SPIRIT WAS GIVING TO BE UTTERING TO THEM.)))

It is important to note that verse 4 shows no indefinite article in relation to "BECAME FILLED ALL OF SPIRIT HOLY.." Therefore (in the absence of the indefinite article which would have been used to secure the thought as being God's literal Holy Spirit) it is a stretch to claim that God's Holy Spirit itself is literally what entered into them.

the indefinite article you speak of was not used until later in that verse, "ACCORDING AS THE SPIRIT WAS GIVING TO BE UTTERING TO THEM." And all this proves is that God's Holy Spirit was the source of what was happening, and not that the Holy Spirit had moved from sitting "upon them" as verse 3 shows us. No basis is there for claiming that God's literal personal Holy Spirit actually entered into them. Only that its influence had an effect in them.

But keep up trying and you will figure it out IF you do not fixate on forcing it to have to be as you believe.

The rest of what you said in the post is but seeking of justification to dismiss what is making you uncomfortable and so I will just ignore it. We all do that kind of whining when pressed to come out of our comfortable places. :)
 
Upvote 0

Buzz_B

Well-Known Member
Oct 15, 2017
894
161
70
Northwest Ohio
✟13,943.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Divorced
I find it surprising that you would question the scripture itself, plus the text I showed and you yourself quoted, even though you misapplied it, from Rev 21 clearly says God will be there, and it seems that you have forgotten that Jesus is God. I imagine you was thinking that the Father is invisible and would not be seen, that would be true but Jesus will be in full glory and when we see Him we have seen the Father will still be true as Jesus told Phillip in John 14. If you pay special attention to My type and other types, you too would have already known what I am showing you here that has been revealed in scripture long ago. Type 1 standing by! :tutu::scratch:

P S Solomon even though he was very wise did not know that God the Son indeed would walk on earth as man. That is why he said that in 2 Chron 6 and he would have slapped his head and fell back if he had known the Lord Himself would live forever in the sight of all the saints, even Solomon.

After thinking about it, its not that surprising!:scratch:
OK, thank you for your insight.
You should take even more time comparing your ideas to what the OT speaks to see how your conclusions measure up. I would be interested to follow along as you do that if you would post about the experience as you proceed along. :)
 
Upvote 0

iwbswiaihl2

Newbie
Aug 18, 2007
1,694
259
✟32,887.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
It always helps to put in enough verses to keep in context and get the whole meaning, here is the verse following Acts 2:3 so that we see what happened when the Holy Spirit rested on each of them;
Acts 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

Same as has been shown before and was ignored. This is what was said of John the Baptist before he was born: Luke 1:15 For he will be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink. He will also be filled with the Holy Spirit, even from his mother’s womb.

And let's notice what the OT prophesy said about Jesus from Isaiah and see what rested on Him. And I would believe that we both would agree, the Holy Spirit rested on Him also meant Jesus was filled with the Holy Spirit and the Holy Spirit was in Him: Isa 11:1-5 There shall come forth a Rod from the stem of Jesse, And a Branch shall grow out of his roots. 2 The Spirit of the Lord shall rest upon Him, The Spirit of wisdom and understanding, The Spirit of counsel and might, The Spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the Lord. 3 His delight is in the fear of the Lord, And He shall not judge by the sight of His eyes, Nor decide by the hearing of His ears; 4 But with righteousness He shall judge the poor, And decide with equity for the meek of the earth; He shall strike the earth with the rod of His mouth, And with the breath of His lips He shall slay the wicked. 5 Righteousness shall be the belt of His loins, And faithfulness the belt of His waist.

I am sure you will agree with this but wanted to show it for all to see. Just this one verse to show that Jesus having the Holy Spirit rest upon Him shows that He was inside of Him, therefore saying, He was filled with the Holy Spirit who rested upon Him and was in Him from birth. Luke 4:1-2 Then Jesus, being filled with the Holy Spirit, returned from the Jordan and was led by the Spirit into the wilderness, 2 being tempted for forty days by the devil. And in those days He ate nothing, and afterward, when they had ended, He was hungry.

I did just remembered that this thread is on OSAS so I will not say anymore on this topic.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Buzz_B

Well-Known Member
Oct 15, 2017
894
161
70
Northwest Ohio
✟13,943.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Divorced
It always helps to put in enough verses to keep in context and get the whole meaning, here is the verse following Acts 2:3 so that we see what happened when the Holy Spirit rested on each of them;
Acts 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

Same as has been shown before and was ignored. This is what was said of John the Baptist before he was born: Luke 1:15 For he will be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink. He will also be filled with the Holy Spirit, even from his mother’s womb.

And let's notice what the OT prophesy said about Jesus from Isaiah and see what rested on Him. And I would believe that we both would agree, the Holy Spirit rested on Him also meant Jesus was filled with the Holy Spirit and the Holy Spirit was in Him: Isa 11:1-5 There shall come forth a Rod from the stem of Jesse, And a Branch shall grow out of his roots. 2 The Spirit of the Lord shall rest upon Him, The Spirit of wisdom and understanding, The Spirit of counsel and might, The Spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the Lord. 3 His delight is in the fear of the Lord, And He shall not judge by the sight of His eyes, Nor decide by the hearing of His ears; 4 But with righteousness He shall judge the poor, And decide with equity for the meek of the earth; He shall strike the earth with the rod of His mouth, And with the breath of His lips He shall slay the wicked. 5 Righteousness shall be the belt of His loins, And faithfulness the belt of His waist.

I am sure you will agree with this but wanted to show it for all to see. Just this one verse to show that Jesus having the Holy Spirit rest upon Him shows that He was inside of Him, therefore saying, He was filled with the Holy Spirit who rested upon Him and was in Him from birth. Luke 4:1-2 Then Jesus, being filled with the Holy Spirit, returned from the Jordan and was led by the Spirit into the wilderness, 2 being tempted for forty days by the devil. And in those days He ate nothing, and afterward, when they had ended, He was hungry.

I did just remembered that this thread is on OSAS so I will not say anymore on this topic.
You are still grasping at straws. The Old testament does not support that God Holy Spirit literal would dwell in any individual man, not even Jesus Christ in the flesh. The spirit in Jesus was his own spirit but kept holy because his spirit always sought to be filled of God's spirit and from no other source.


About the only place we find in the OT which could be misconstrued to support belief is Ezekiel 36:27 “And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.”

All other places make it rather clear that God's spirit is with them as a people, influencing them as a people and as individuals meek enough to let themselves receive of that holy influence, rather than literally in them as individuals. And so does Ezekiel 36:27 when properly understood. And here at Ezekiel 36:27 we have no problem identifying who this “you” is that he puts his spirit “in”, if we care to look further at the context:

Ezekiel 36:22 Therefore say unto the house of Israel, Thus saith the Lord GOD; …................

Ezekiel 36:24 ... I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.

“You”is thus very clearly “the house of Israel” and putting his spirit in “you” clearly means in the house of Israel as a holy nation.

Thus we can properly understand Ezekiel 36:27, as saying, “And I will put my spirit within you (O house of Israel), and cause you (O house of Israel) to walk in my statutes, and ye (O house of Israel) shall keep my judgments, and do them.”

You cited the following: Luke 4:1-2 Then Jesus, being filled with the Holy Spirit, returned from the Jordan and was led by the Spirit into the wilderness, 2 being tempted for forty days by the devil. And in those days He ate nothing, and afterward, when they had ended, He was hungry.

Now investigate further:

(((Luke 4:1
ieesous de pleerees pneumatos hagiou hupestrepsen
JESUS BUT FULL OF SPIRIT HOLY TURNED UNDER
apo tou iordanou kai eegeto en tw pneumati en
FROM THE JORDAN, AND WAS BEING LED IN THE SPIRIT IN
tee ereemw
THE DESOLATE [PLACE])))

First we what you say is God's Holy Spirit literally in Jesus "JESUS BUT FULL OF SPIRIT HOLY", and then we see it reversed, "LED IN THE SPIRIT"

First, according to your belief, you have God's literal Holy Spirit in Jesus and then if you interpreted consistently the way you interpreted the first part, as the verse continues on you would have to have Jesus literally IN God's literal Holy Spirit.

You do not understand that word "spirit" and you do not understand these figurative influencial relationships the Scriptures use. And you do not understand that your ideas conflict with much of the OT. Why? Because you are filled up with a belief that comforts you, making you unwilling to put any more work into making sure your ideas harmonize with the OT. God' spirit on the OT has to guide our understanding of the NT or what we get is what you got.

And this does relate to the OSAS doctrine. You use this to explain how God does it all for you. That is how you draw your comfort, not knowing that the reality is that you are wrong.
 
Upvote 0