how do people who believe in eternal torture in fire

AACJ · Dec 20, 2017

ClementofA said:
"O.K. so, how do you people who believe in eternal torture in fire, how do you tuck your children in at night and explain to them that God loves you but if you don't love Him He is going to torture you in fire, not for the length of your favorite video, not for the length of a day, not even for the length of a year but it will be unending. Mommy and Daddy will be in heaven while you writhe in unimaginable suffering because this is what God does to those who don't love Him."

"So how do you explain to your children about God's love? Do you tell them the truth that you love your children more than God does and you would never harm your children even if they don't love you?"

"There has to come a time when you tell them the truth, don't you think?"

"This is not sarcasm. It is letting those who believe in eternal torment come to grips with their beliefs. If they are honest with themselves they have to tell their children these things.
After all, we wouldn't want to sugar coat something so serious as a loving God torturing people for billions and billions and billions and billions of years without end, those who do not love Him, now would we?"

"And if your children only love Him to escape such a fate, what kind of hypocritical love is that?"

"As a child, camping out, I would ask my friends as we sat around the campfire and looking into it: "How can God burn people in fire for e--t--e--r--n--i--t--y?" No one would say a word. But it always bugged me. As I grew up and started visiting hell-fire churches, it was psychologically horrifying. It's like the people that attend those churches do so for the thrill of having the begeebies scared out of them. Kind of like thrill seekers. I was so glad to leave that behind and find out about God's love and plan for all mankind."

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"Yep. People who say that they believe in Hell aren't remotely serious. If they were, they would be catatonic."

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"I went through a phase where I strongly believed in ET. I lost my appetite (and thus a lot of weight) and was constantly anxious. It was terrible."

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"That is indeed the seat of a LOT of mental health concerns many Christians who subscribe to it suffer; consequently, I can understand certain over-the-top reactions by some
supposed non-believers."

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"Basically Hell is a component in an intellectual construct that many people toy with in their minds. Nobody believes in Hell in the same way that I believe that I love my daughter,
that my mother loves me, that the sky is blue, etc."

Concerning 1 Timothy 4:10

------------------------------------------------

Have you been decieved by your Bible translation?

Ok, so you can now step down from the moral soap box you have fabricated in apparent condescension or maybe moral outrage rooted in ignorance. What you are really asking is: How can everlasting Hell advocates promote something so (supposedly) unjust or cruel? Are you asking this because you truly deny an everlasting Hell, or are you simply asking a question for the sake of discussion? If the latter, then you should be more careful of how you present your topics for discussion.

A much better question is:

How do you "tuck your children in at night and explain to them" that God is apparently not a just God because He allows (presupposing annihilationism) for the negation of accountability as well as for sin to be overcome by some other means outside of the work of the Cross? Or (if you believe in Universal Salvation/Reconciliation), that God approves of mis-interpreting Scripture, as well as a doctrine that works to enable/encourage a disregard for holiness living and/or the putting off of making a decision for Christ in this present life?

yeshuaslavejeff · Dec 20, 2017

frettr00 said:
God is also just and if he says the appropriate sentence for sin is Hell then that's how it is. Who are we to say we know better than God?

What YHWH Says is always TRUTH, without change.

What men say is usually always lies, without change. (err........ or is that always changing/ never coming to the Truth... ? ) ......

mkgal1 · Dec 20, 2017

AACJ said:
A much better question is:

How do you "tuck your children in at night and explain to them" that God is apparently not a just God because He allows (presupposing annihilationism) for the negation of accountability as well as for sin to be overcome by some other means outside of the work of the Cross? Or (if you believe in Universal Salvation/Reconciliation), that God approves of a doctrine that works to enable/encourage a disregard for holiness living and/or the putting off of making a decision for Christ in this present life?

There is another alternative.

A person can believe in His love being offered freely (and returned freely)....accountability.....and restoration/reconciliation of ALL of humanity. There doesn't have to be a disregard for holiness in order to believe in complete restoration.

Also...."the work of the cross" and Universal Reconciliation are not mutually exclusive but, instead, actually dependent upon one another.

AACJ · Dec 20, 2017

mkgal1 said:
Really good question.

Right.....I don't even see that as "love" as it's coerced. Doesn't genuine love *need* to be offered freely and without coercion?

ETA: I had to look up some examples from the Bible--

“I will heal their backsliding, I will love them freely” (Hos. 14:4)

“Therefore My Father loves Me, because I lay down My life that I may take it again. No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down of Myself” (John 10:17-18)

Godly fear is a common theme in Scripture. I both feared my mother and loved her because I knew she had the power to bring to bear the belt. The fear of God is the beginning of wisdom...

There is s huge difference between Godly fear and fear rooted in rebelion.

A blind man had better fear that yawing pit he is running headlong towards, and a loving Christian had better do whatever he/she has the capacity and strength to do to prevent such an irreversible calamity.

AACJ · Dec 20, 2017

mkgal1 said:
There is another alternative.

A person can believe in His love being offered freely (and returned freely)....accountability.....and restoration/reconciliation of ALL of humanity. There doesn't have to be a disregard for holiness in order to believe in complete restoration.

Also...."the work of the cross" and Universal Reconciliation are not mutually exclusive but, instead, actually dependent upon one another.

No, I disagree. The idea that everyone will certainly be saved does work to enable the lost to put of making a decision for Christ. If the so-called "second bus" doctrine pertaining to pre-trib theology induces such procrastination, then certainly Universal Reconciliation does.

AACJ · Dec 20, 2017

yeshuaslavejeff said:
What YHWH Says is always TRUTH, without change.

What men say is usually always lies, without change. (err........ or is that always changing/ never coming to the Truth... ? ) ......

Let God be True and every man a liar.....

SkyWriting · Dec 20, 2017

mkgal1 said:
....but the theology of ET has God actually *doing* the tormenting (punishing....not restoring). Doesn't the Bible say there's "no fear in love" and "love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment"? To my mind.....that means love goes beyond punishment.

When you write, "God will still be there for you after you die".....are you saying you believe God allows for restoration *after* our physical death (if so....I agree with you on that). If not....can you elaborate on that?

The torment is self imposed and based on what people have done against God during their life.
Yes, we get restored bodies after death. Yes, all our sins are wiped clean by God's forgiveness.
Only rejecting God can stop His forgiveness.

mkgal1 · Dec 20, 2017

AACJ said:
Godly fear is a common theme in Scripture. I both feared my mother and loved her because I knew she had the power to bring to bear the belt. The fear of GOd is the beginning of wisdom...

First off: I'm sorry that was your experience with your mother ("her power to bring the belt"). Fear may be the *beginning* of wisdom.....but I don't believe it's the end. I don't think we can both love & fear at the same time (as that passage says....."love drives out fear.....").

There is s huge difference between Godly fear and fear rooted in rebelion.

A blind man had better fear that yawing pit he is running headlong towards, and a loving Christian had better do whatever he/she has the capacity and strength to do to prevent such an irreversible calamity.

If that were what Jesus died for (to keep us from that "yawing pit"...) and if we're to be like Him....then can you show me examples of Him "doing what He can to prevent" this from happening? I don't mean using His death on the cross (because that's an interpretation). I mean an actual story/account from the Bible that we can imitate? Why don't we have passages that suggest this is what the disciples were saying to people?

mkgal1 · Dec 20, 2017

SkyWriting said:
The torment is self imposed and based on what people have done against God during their life.

I can (and do) agree with this.

AACJ · Dec 20, 2017

mkgal1 said:
First off: I'm sorry that was your experience with your mother ("her power to bring the belt"). Fear may be the *beginning* of wisdom.....but I don't believe it's the end. I don't think we can both love & fear at the same time (as that passage says....."love drives out fear.....").

LOL. Did you mis the "I both love and feared" my mother? There is no experience in this life where justice is inseparable from fear. We fear breaking the law in our nations partly because of justice waiting to be served. That's healthy fear.

You have of course misunderstood 1 John 4:18. The fear referenced in the verse is fear of failure rooted in our weakness (normally due to a lack of knowledge of God's character and the work of the Cross), not fearing wilful rebellion. No one has experienced an occasion that supports a claim that no one should fear wilful rebellion against lawful authority.

AACJ · Dec 20, 2017

mkgal1 said:
If that were what Jesus died for (to keep us from that "yawing pit"...) and if we're to be like Him....then can you show me examples of Him "doing what He can to prevent" this from happening? I don't mean using His death on the cross (because that's an interpretation). I mean an actual story/account from the Bible that we can imitate? Why don't we have passages that suggest this is what the disciples were saying to people?

What? Are you suggesting that the disciples did not warn people of coming judgment in the afterlife that constitutes punishment, conditioned on unremitted sin?

mkgal1 · Dec 20, 2017

AACJ said:
The idea that everyone will certainly be saved does work to enable the lost to put of making a decision for Christ.

Have you actually spoken with people that suggest they're lack of belief in God is due to procrastination?

I haven't. The people I know of have pretty good reasons to cite as to why they're not believing in the god that's been presented to them (and it's often due to a thought process a lot like what Clement has described in the OP). They've also experienced a lot of heartache and loss....and the church didn't have much of an answer for it other than ("God has a plan")...but for them......based on what they've told me......they aren't interested in a god that plans things like what they've experienced.

I'm of the belief that God will need to show Himself to them in a way only He can.....and away from the interference of [imperfect] people speaking for Him.

mkgal1 · Dec 20, 2017

AACJ said:
LOL. Did you mis the "I both love and feared" my mother?

No. I saw that you wrote that.

AACJ · Dec 20, 2017

All who perish in their sins die breaking the greatest command, commonly known as the Royal command. We are all the cause of our God-in-the-flesh being massacred on the Cross. All sinners perish under the same condemnation. Hence, they all warrant the same consequence: everlasting separation, condemnation, and Hell-fire.

mkgal1 · Dec 20, 2017

AACJ said:
What? Are you suggesting that the disciples did not warn people of coming judgment in the afterlife that constitutes punishment, conditioned on unremitted sin?

I'm not really suggesting anything other than *asking* for you to provide support for the idea that this was their specific priority. If we're to model after them.....then I'd like to see an example to follow.

AACJ · Dec 20, 2017

mkgal1 said:
Have you actually spoken with people that suggest they're lack of belief in God is due to procrastination?

Lack of belief is not a consequence of procrastination, it is reasonably the cause of it. That is, a lack of belief in everlasting punishment, or a lack of belief in certain necessities of making a decision for Christ in this present life.

mkgal1 · Dec 20, 2017

AACJ said:
We fear breaking the law in our nations partly because of justice waiting to be served. That's healthy fear.

....or some of us don't break laws because we "treat people the same way we want them to treat us". It's because of our empathy we don't harm others (not fear of punishment).

mkgal1 · Dec 20, 2017

AACJ said:
Lack of belief is not a consequence of procrastination, it is reasonably the cause of it.

Personally.....I don't think procrastination has *anything* to do with it.

I think you're saying what I am: that a person is "putting off" their belief not because they're procrastinating.....they're putting it off because they simply can't believe in what's been presented to them (which isn't really "procrastination").

AACJ · Dec 20, 2017

mkgal1 said:
....or some of us don't break laws because we "treat people the same way we want them to treat us". It's because of our empathy we don't harm others (not fear of punishment).

That is partly a cause. But, are you actually claiming that a healthy respect (healthy fear) for the consequences of breaking the law is not always in our minds? When you find yourself exceeding the speed limit, what comes into your mind, just "well I want to be safe so that I do not cause an accident," or does not this also penetrate your thoughts: "I don't want a speeding ticket." Lets keep it real.

AACJ · Dec 20, 2017

mkgal1 said:
I'm not really suggesting anything other than *asking* for you to provide support that this was their specific priority. If we're to model after them.....then I'd like to see an example to follow.

Specific Priority? Justice is an attribute of God. Judgment follows. Judgment is probably the main topic preached by Christ. So the Rich Man had no need to worry about his lawlessness? He could just live as he pleased without real consequences?

Exodus 34:6-7

Ezekiel 18:20-24

2 Thessalonians 1:5-12

Revelation 2:11

Revelation 20:6

Revelation 20:14

Revelation 21:8

how do people who believe in eternal torture in fire

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