Catholic vs. Protestant – why is there so much animosity?"

EastCoastRemnant said:

What became of the Jews who felt that way about the leadership of their church? Their house (church) was left unto them desolate. Jesus was very clear about the rebuke He gave to the Pharisees about teaching the doctrines of man.

Matthew 15:3
But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?

Mark 7:13
Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

Colossians 2:8
Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

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truefiction1 said:

Not true at all, PeaceByJesus. We know exactly how to answer. But you aren't able to receive the answer, due to the operation within you of the very devices that you just claimed not to be ignorant of. For this reason... I'm out, but leaving with the following note:

the same Orthodox Christian prescription for you stands that I wrote before: deep repentance and fervent prayer, with your mind entering into and remaining in your heart, where you will stand before God in fear, asking for help and trusting in Him to give it. You will probably need to use the "Jesus Prayer" when you do this, or some effective version thereof. May God be with you always and His infinite mercy be upon you. Amen.

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Deade said:

Hey guys, The Nicean Creed is the result of the Roman Church hijacking Christianity under Emporer Constatine. You argue the resurrection was on a Sunday, but it was actually on a Saturday evening. Christ was buried just before sundown: and 3 days/3 nights add up to a sundown resurrection. I am a Christian author/missionary that keeps the Saturday Sabbath. I am not a SDA as I don't agree with any of Ellen White's writings.

If your worship God through Christ, that is enough but do not judge me for keeping the true Sabbath and I won't judge you.

Dennis Eades

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Major1 said:

...This is why there was the necessity for a virgin birth. We have come a long way in genetics and now we find that the sin nature is passed on specifically through the male...

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PeaceByJesus said:

PeaceByJesus said: ↑
Why is that a stumper. Does your necessary strawman of SS mean only what is explicitly and formally taught constitute Scriptural teaching, versus what is soundly deduced upon the collective weight of indirect conflative teaching and principle, and without actual contradiction, and or materially provided for accordingly?


Actually if needed i can provide you the book, chapter, and verse showing common souls correctly ascertaining both men and writings as being of God, and thus the formation of a body of inspired writings (i.e. a canon) called Scripture, from which the NT provided Scriptural substantiation for its Truth claims.

And also that writing is God's chosen means of reliable authoritative preservation, and that as as written, Scripture became the transcendent supreme standard for obedience and testing and establishing truth claims as the wholly Divinely inspired and assured, Word of God.

PeaceByJesus said: ↑
Do we see common souls correctly ascertaining both men and writings as being of God, and thus the formation of a body of inspired writings (i.e. a canon) called Scripture, from which the NT provided Scriptural substantiation for its Truth claims?

Make your point? The only point it makes is that of your own ignorance.

Common souls correctly ascertaining both men and writings as being of God:

First as regards men. Contrary to the Catholic model for ascertaining what is of God - in which the historical magisterial stewards are Scripture are the sure authorities on that subject - the church began with common souls rightly judging a holy man in the desert who ate insects as being a man of God, in dissent from said magisterial authorities:

And they come again to Jerusalem: and as he was walking in the temple, there come to him the chief priests, and the scribes, and the elders, And say unto him, By what authority doest thou these things? and who gave thee this authority to do these things? And Jesus answered and said unto them, I will also ask of you one question, and answer me, and I will tell you by what authority I do these things. The baptism of John, was it from heaven, or of men? answer me. And they reasoned with themselves, saying, If we shall say, From heaven; he will say, Why then did ye not believe him? But if we shall say, Of men; they feared the people: for all men counted John, that he was a prophet indeed. (Mark 11:27-32)

And consistent with the correct but dissenting judgment of the common people, while being rejected by the magisterial authorities,

And Jesus answered and said, while he taught in the temple, How say the scribes that Christ is the Son of David? For David himself said by the Holy Ghost, The Lord said to my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool. David therefore himself calleth him Lord; and whence is he then his son? And the common people heard him gladly. (Mark 12:35-37)

And sounding much like Catholics who denigrate converts to evangelism by exalting the conversion of men like Newman (and i have some useful quotes from him),

Then came the officers to the chief priests and Pharisees; and they said unto them, Why have ye not brought him? The officers answered, Never man spake like this man. Then answered them the Pharisees, Are ye also deceived? Have any of the rulers or of the Pharisees believed on him? But this people who knoweth not the law are cursed. (John 7:45-49)

Which "laity" having correct but dissenting judgment did not begin in the NT, for God often helped preserve faith by raising up men who were not part of the magisterium of Israel and whom the latter too often rejected, but whom pious common people rightly discerned and revered as men of God ("And the woman said to Elijah, Now by this I know that thou art a man of God, and that the word of the Lord in thy mouth is truth. "1 Kings 17:24). Yet of leadership it is demanded,

Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye. Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers: (Acts 7:51-52)

Now as for writings of God, is it abundantly evidenced that as written, Scripture became the transcendent supreme standard for obedience and testing and establishing truth claims as the wholly Divinely inspired and assured, Word of God, and by the time of Christ the formation of a body of inspired writings (i.e. a canon) being called Scripture had been established. Therefore enabling the NT church to provide Scriptural substantiation for its Truth claims. (Lk. 24:27,44; Acts 17:2,11; 18:28; 28:23, cf. Mat. 1:22; 2:5,15,17,18; 3:3; 4:4,6,7,10,14,15; 5:17,18,33,38,43; 8:4,17; 9:13; 11:10; 12:3,5,17-21,40,41; 13:14,15,35; 14:3,4,7-9;19:4,5,17-19; 21:4,5,13,16,42; 22:24,29,31,32,37,39,43,44; 23:35;24:15; 26:24,31,54,56; 27:9,10,35; Mark 1:2,44; 7:3,10; 9:12,13; 10:4,5; 11:17; 12:10,19,24,26 13:14; 14:21,47,49; 15:28; Lk. 2:22,23.24; 3:4,5,6; 4:4,6-8,10,12,16,17,18,20,25-27; 5:14; 7:27; 8:10; 10:26,27; 16:29,31; 18:20,31; 19:46; 20:17,18, 28,37,42,43; 22:37; 23:30; 24:25.27,32,44,45,46; Jn. 1:45; 2:17,22; 3:14; 5:39,45-47; 6:31,45; 7:19,22,23,38,42,51,52; 8:5,17; 9:26; 10:34,35; 12:14,15,38-41; 15:25; 17:12; 19:24,28,36,37; 20:9,31; 21:24; Acts 1:20; 2:16-21,25-28,34,35; 3:22,23,25; 4:11,25,26; 7:3,7,27,28,32,33,37,40,42,43,49,50,53; 8:28,30,32,33; 10:43;13:15,27,29,33,39; 15:5,15-17,21; 17:2,11; 18:13.24,28; 21:20,24; 22:12; 23:3,5; 24:14; 26:22; 28:23,26,27; Rom 1:2,17; 2:10-21,31; 4:3,7,17,18,23,24; 5:13; 7:1-3,7,12,14,16; 8:4,36; 9:4,9,12,13,15,17,25-29,33; 10:11,15,19; 11:2-4,8,9,26,27; 12:19,20; 13:8-10; 14:11; 15:3,4,9-12,21; 16:16,26,27; 1Cor. 1:19,31; 2:9; 3:19,20; 4:6; 6:16; 7:39; 9:9,10; 10:7,11,26,28; 14:21,34; 15:3,4,32,45,54,55; 2Cor. 1:13; 2:3,4; 3:7,15; 4:13; 6:2;16; 7:12; 8:15; 9:9; 10:17; 13:1; Gal. 3:6,8,10-13; 4:22,27,30; 5:14; Eph. 3:3,4; (cf. 2Pt. 3:16); Eph. 4:8; 5:31; 6:2,3; (cf. Dt. 5:16); Col. 4:16; 1Thes. 5:27; 1Tim. 5:18; 2Tim. 3:14,16,17; Heb. 1:5,7-13; 2:5-8,12,13; 3:7-11,15; 4:3,4,7; 5:5,6; 6:14; 7:17,21,28; 8:5,8-13; 9:20; 10:5-916,17,28,30,37; 11:18; 12:5,6,12,26,29; 13:5,6,22; James 2:8,23; 4:5; 1Pet. 1:16,24,25; 2:6,7,22; 3:10-12; 5:5,12; 2Pet. 1:20,21; 2:22; 3:1,15,16; 1Jn. 1:4; 2:1,7,8,12,13,21; 5:13; Rev. 1:3,11,19; 2:1,8,12,18; 3:1,7,12,14; 14:13; 19:9; 21:5; 22:6,7;10,18,19

The Lord Himself referred to the the tripartite canon of the law and the prophets and psalms (the Writings [hagiographa]) in "that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me. Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures." (Luke 24:44-45)

And likewise "Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures." (Acts 17:2)

And Apollos:"mightily convinced the Jews, and that publickly, shewing by the scriptures that Jesus was Christ." (Acts 18:28)

Which further evidences the establishment of an authoritative body of writings, which was something those in the seat of Moses never contended against, yet note that there is no record of any official magisterial decree on what books constituted Scripture by the time of Christ (many refer to a Council of Jamnia as authoritatively setting the Hebrew canon around 100 A.D., but modern research research no longer considers that to be the case, or that there even was a council, while some scholars argue that the Jewish canon was fixed earlier during the time of the Hasmonean dynasty (140 and c. 116 B.C.). — Council of Jamnia - Wikipedia)

Thus as with our canon, the establishment of the canonical status of writing of God was by progressive common affirmation, essentially due to their unique and enduring heavenly qualities and attestation. And thus the Scriptural evidence of common recognition of both men and writings of God as being so means that Scripture materially provides for the establishment of the 66 book canon of Scripture (as well as providing for reason, the church, etc.)

It is also abundantly evidenced that writing is God means of reliable preservation:

• And the Lord said unto Moses, Write this for a memorial in a book.. (Exodus 17:14)
• And the Lord said unto Moses, Write thou these words: for after the tenor of these words I have made a covenant with thee and with Israel. (Exodus 34:27)
• And he wrote on the tables, according to the first writing.. (Deuteronomy 10:4)
• And it shall be, when he sitteth upon the throne of his kingdom, that he shall write him a copy of this law in a book out of that which is before the priests the Levites: (Deuteronomy 17:18)
• And thou shalt write upon them all the words of this law,..(Deuteronomy 27:3)
• And it came to pass, when Moses had made an end of writing the words of this law in a book, until they were finished, (Deuteronomy 31:24)
• Now go, write it before them in a table, and note it in a book, that it may be for the time to come for ever and ever: (Isaiah 30:8; cf. Job 19:23)
• But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. (John 20:31)
• And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. (Revelation 20:12)
• And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. (Revelation 20:15)

And thus it was not because of faithful oral transmission being and effectually preserving the word among people, but it was in the absence of this that the king of Israel ripped his clothes in repentance over upon the hearing of the written word, this being the standard for obedience and testing Truth claims, upon which the NT church established its claims.

And Shaphan the scribe shewed the king, saying, Hilkiah the priest hath delivered me a book. And Shaphan read it before the king. And it came to pass, when the king had heard the words of the book of the law, that he rent his clothes. (2 Kings 22:10-11)

Go ye, enquire of the Lord for me, and for the people, and for all Judah, concerning the words of this book that is found: for great is the wrath of the Lord that is kindled against us, because our fathers have not hearkened unto the words of this book, to do according unto all that which is written concerning us. (2 Kings 22:13)

Want more?

PeaceByJesus said: ↑
You must be aware that also Catholicism fallaciously asserts that one cannot assuredly ascertain what is of God except by reliance upon and faith in "The Church."


Then in this case it is ignorance of Catholic teaching that is evidenced.

It is the living Church and not Scripture that St. Paul indicates as the pillar and the unshakable ground of truth....no matter what be done the believer cannot believe in the Bible nor find in it the object of his faith until he has previously made an act of faith in the intermediary authorities..." - Catholic Encyclopedia>Tradition and Living Magisterium; CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Tradition and Living Magisterium

Cardinal Avery Dulles: People cannot discover the contents of revelation by their unaided powers of reason and observation. They have to be told by people who have received in from on high. Even the most qualified scholars who have access to the Bible and the ancient historical sources fall into serious disagreements about matters of belief.” - Cardinal Avery Dulles, SJ, “Magisterium: Teacher and Guardian of the Faith,” p. 72;

(Orthodox) It is the Church that tells us what is Scripture, and it is also the Church that tells us how Scripture is to be understood...The decisive test and criterion for our understanding of what the Scripture means is the mind of the Church http://oca.org/scripture/how-to-read-the-bible; — How to Read the Bible

...the sense of Holy Scripture can nowhere be found incorrupt outside of the Church, and cannot be expected to be found in writers who, being without the true faith, only gnaw the bark of the Sacred Scripture, and never attain its pith.” - Providentissimus Deus

Well then i suggest you buy a fire extinguisher and some ointment since your ignorant arrogance just got you burned very badly.

But go ahead and vainly attempt to argue that what i provided did not evidence common souls correctly ascertaining both men and writings as being of God, and thus the formation of a body of inspired writings (i.e. a canon) called Scripture, from which the NT provided Scriptural substantiation for its Truth claims. Which thus provides for a larger canon. You will be just blowing smoke if you try.

Or you might rely on the standard strawman of SS that restricts its use to only explicit statements, and never to what ca be deduced by comprehensive study and the collective weight of conflative statements and upon principle.

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Vicomte13 said:

There are writings from the era, the Protoevangelium of James in particular, that describes Mary's immaculate conception. True: it was not canonized.

The Immaculate conception partly flows from logic. Will God accept being in the presence of sin? Will God live and abide closely with sin? If Mary never committed sin, she was still subject to original sin, which means that God MATED with sinful flesh, and then, as he developed, God was ENCASED IN sinful flesh for 9 months in Mary's womb, and was indeed born from Mary's sin-infused egg. And then he suckled at Mary's sinful breasts, and then was raised and under the command of a sinner.

If God cannot be in the presence of sin, this cannot be There was no baptism yet at the time of Jesus' conception, no way for Mary to wash away original sin (and even baptism won't remove the influence of it passing with the flesh.

So, either God can be encased in sin, or Mary had to be sinless. The Immaculate Conception is the answer by which she was sinless, and James' Protoevangelium tells us how.

Otherwise, God was encased and drenched in sin for 9 months, in Mary's womb.

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JacksBratt said:

If Mary never committed a sin... she could have been our savior.

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prodromos said:

Nonsense! Could Mary rise from the dead? Without the resurrection there is no salvation.

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PeaceByJesus said:

Then to be honest, refusal to clarify yourself, and which actually would help prevent others from criticizing you (unless you do hold your local pastor's messages as being of more weight than a doctor of the RCC) further marginalizes your responses as being more like that of trolls than substantive exchange/debate. It does not help your cause.

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concretecamper said:

All you had to say is that you cannot provide scriptural text of any kind that tells us what books belong in the bible. Maybe someone else can? Any takers? PLEASE.

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PeaceB said:

What is this, the Spanish Inquisition? There is a little Catholic in you after all.

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He asked me a question. I gave him an answer. If you would like me to expound further on the topic you may pay me my usual hourly rate.

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Deade said:

Hey guys, The Nicean Creed is the result of the Roman Church hijacking Christianity under Emporer Constatine. You argue the resurrection was on a Sunday, but it was actually on a Saturday evening. Christ was buried just before sundown: and 3 days/3 nights add up to a sundown resurrection. I am a Christian author/missionary that keeps the Saturday Sabbath. I am not a SDA as I don't agree with any of Ellen White's writings.

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PeaceByJesus said:

Why would anyone pay any rate for such a spokesperson who is so reticent she refuses to answer pertinent clarifying questions, except that the answer might be damaging to her position? What's to hide?

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PeaceByJesus said:

Sorry if you think asking questions of you sitting behind a keyboard with the safety of anonymity is akin to the often physically tortuous Spanish Inquisition. Lets not minimize that.

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PeaceByJesus said:

All you had to say is that you cannot provide text of any kind that tells us Scripture must provide the names of all the books that belong in the bible -

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PeaceByJesus said:

versus showing that such are discerned and the basis for it.

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PeaceB said:

There is nothing to hide. I did not feel like expounding on the matter, because at that particular point in time, I had other things that I wanted to spend my time on.

Now if either of you had politely asked me to clarify my answer like a civilized human being, I may have decided to provide the requested information. You may want to try that next time, rather than so rudely declaring what other people must do.

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PeaceByJesus said:

How was asking you,

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concretecamper said:

Scripture is not the total of Divine Revelation so I am quite comfortable with the Bible not listing the books. You really have to keep up.

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