Does the Bible teach works must follow God's grace as a part of our salvation?

Jason0047 said:

The milk teaching is believing on Jesus as one's Savior. The meat teaching is discerning between good and evil and doing what Jesus says.

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It is a package deal. LORD and SAVIOR.
If Jesus isn't your Lord, then you (not you in particular, but 'one') might be in danger of hearing "I never knew you" (Matthew 7:23).

Romans 10:8-11 NASB But what does it say? “THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART”—that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. For the Scripture says, “WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED.”

Does the Bible teach works must follow God's grace as a part of our salvation?

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The Lord Jesus Christ preached only to the Jews and did not go out of His way to preach to the Gentiles. He even likened Gentiles to dogs and swines. Why.? Because the Gentiles were mostly a people of lawlessness, like wild animals, eg Roman Law did not prohibit adultery, divorce, homosexuality, sodomy, incest, idolatry, blasphemy, alcohol/drunkenness, gambling, prostitution, etc - similar to today's US Law.
... If Moses Law was not crucial for salvation, Jesus Christ would have gone out of His way to also preach to the mostly lawless Gentiles.

Anyway, at ACTS.15:24-29, God required new Gentile Christians to begin their born-again lives in the Spirit by keeping 4 easy laws of Moses. (cf; 1COR.3:1-3)
... So, for their salvation, new Gentile Christians are required to have faith in God's Son - Jesus, and in the non-burdensome parts of God's Law.

In comparison, for their salvation, Jewish Christians are required to have faith in God's Law, ie keep as many laws as possible, and in God's Son because doing so is not a burden to them.

pilgrimage said:

Not always Matthew 5:20-42

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Those passages you cited prove my example.... not sure why you don't think they do... please help me to understand. Everything Jesus said in Matt 5:20 and onward is related to a precept of the Decalogue.

Blood Bought 1953 said:

Century Lady......my favorite worthy foe! Lol....hope things are going well for you and yours.
I don’t worry about any rules.Paul said that if we believe his Gospel—plus nothing—we will be saved. So I don’t care what obstacles are put in my way. Whatever they are, it’s up to God to lead me to overcome them.HE made the promise to save— not me.The onus is on him....His word is at stake, not mine.I did my pArt —- I believed....now I believe that He will do His part and save me.if salvation comes by faith plus eat snow on top of Mt.Everest, God will see to it that is done.if I have to be 90% perfect to get into Heaven,God will see that I am 90% perfect. What a relief to know that HE will finish the work that He started.The man who finds life will find it by trusting God..my Life is abundant, and I never worked for it....It was a gift from God because of my faith...let go and let God!

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I remember a guy on another forum say, that God is sovereign, and He has lead him into and is responsible for every sin he's committed.

Cat Loaf You said:

Actually there is no plus , people who think that need to write a sticker on thier fridge and every time they open it they need to read Psalm 49

7 None of them can by any means redeem his brother, nor give to God a ransom for him:

8 (For the redemption of their soul is precious, and it ceaseth for ever

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Here is the test of whether or not you are actually a follower of Christ. If so, then Christ has given them His own Spirit. If not and they are walking in darkness, they are fooling themselves. Good luck with the test.

7 Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. 8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God. 10 In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother. 11 For this is the message that you heard from the beginning, that we should love one another

This is a tiresomely endless discussion.

The only reason anyone would be drawing such lines is if he's trying to determine the bare minimum that's require of him...which is an indication that he's not truly "all in" with devotion to the Person he professes as Lord.

The attitude of the saved toward good works should be: "Good works...it's what we do."

The effect of good works on salvation should not even be a question. It shouldn't be anything we wonder about.

Good works are simply what the saved do.

Jason0047 said:

Jesus saves not only in Justification, but in Sanctification, too.
For Jesus has helped the drug addict to put down the needle and the gambler to put down his cards.

"But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof." (Romans 13:14).

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According to your logic can you explain to me this verse then.

21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.


People saying here , even tho they knew who Jesus was and were probably preachers/priests still did not make it , so if they did not make it how can casual human make it ?

pilgrimage said:

If you want to believe the elemental spiritual forces of this world rather than on Christ then that's your perogative. Imo that is the scripture that Jesus uses to define the milk from the meat. I won't change your mind and you won't change mine.

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1COR.3: =
Sectarianism Is Carnal
1 And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual people but as to carnal, as to babes in Christ. 2 I fed you with milk and not with solid food; for until now you were not able to receive it, and even now you are still not able; 3 for you are still carnal. For where there are envy, strife, and divisions among you, are you not carnal and behaving like mere men? 4 For when one says, “I am of Paul,” and another, “I am of Apollos,” are you not carnal?
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Before Christ, the Jews, scribes and Pharisees falsely thought that they were going to enter the kingdom of heaven by just believing in God/YHWH and keeping Moses Law or God's Law.

At MATT.5:17-48, Jesus Christ told His fellow Jews, the scribes and Pharisees that they were not righteous enough to enter the kingdom of heaven by just keeping the Law, eg "You shall not murder", "You shall not commit adultery" and "You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy". Why.?
... Because as long as people have a tinge of immoral anger, lust, hate, selfishness, greed, jealousy, baseless fears/worries and doubts in their hearts, even though involuntarily, they are already bound for hell when they die = the result of Adam's Original Sin.(ROMANS.5:12).

And if they wanted to be saved from hell without Christ, then they would have to pluck out their eyes and chop off their limbs, love their enemies, turn the other cheek, lend to all who ask and walk the extra mile.

Those who have accepted Jesus as your Christ/Messiah/Savior do not have to do these silly things, in order to be saved.(cf; ROMANS.12:19-21)

(see also JOHN.3:16, GAL.2:16)

EastCoastRemnant said:

Don't forget that the prodigal son had to repent of his transgression and turn back to the father... that act of repentance, is a work that only we can do.

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Individualist focus is false. It is even written in Romans Chapter 2 that God is kind to us so we will repent, God is a very "let's do it together" kind of God.

Jason0047 said:

Yes. But we will be sorrowful and ask God forgiveness (Which then leads to forsaking sin). Did you read Matthew 12:41 and compare it with Jonah 3:6-10?

The King of the Nineties told his people to:

(a) Cry out unto God (i.e. Repentance).
(b) Forsake their evil ways (i.e. the fruits of Repentance).

This is true repentance. Jesus said, the Ninevites will rise up in judgment against this generation because they repented at the preaching of Jonah. (See Matthew 12:41).

When God had seen that the Nineties had turned away from their wicked way, that is when God did not bring judgment or wrath upon them.

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Yes, sorrow plays a part and provides a motivator; for blessed are those who mourn (about their poorness of spirit) and Godly sorrow brings repentance that leads to salvation.

And even a sorrowful heart is not enough if a person is not meek enough to be lead into the land, to change their path, to follow Him.

Anguspure said:

Repentance is turning towards the person of Christ, trusting and following only Him and His example.

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Anguspure said:

Is not Jesus our Lord and our God? If we turn to Him alone we repent of everything that is not who He is.

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Definition of repent
intransitive verb
1 : to turn from sin and dedicate oneself to the amendment of one's life
2 a : to feel regret or contrition
b : to change one's mind
transitive verb
1 : to cause to feel regret or contrition
2 : to feel sorrow, regret, or contrition for
—
repenter
noun

RDKirk said:

The attitude of the saved toward good works should be: "Good works...it's what we do."

The effect of good works on salvation should not even be a question. It shouldn't be anything we wonder about.

Good works are simply what the saved do.

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I think that this is the post that every christian in this thread can agree with. How many else think so? Let's find the middle ground here and promote some unity!

Michael Collum said:

Individualist focus is false. It is even written in Romans Chapter 2 that God is kind to us so we will repent, God is a very "let's do it together" kind of God.

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So you didn't have a choice in repenting? Did God make you? How is that true repentance?

Cat Loaf You said:

People saying here , even tho they knew who Jesus was and were probably preachers/priests still did not make it , so if they did not make it how can casual human make it ?

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They did not make it because they weren't really what they claimed, or the things you mention, so you only need be righteous/sincere where they were not, and you'll be fine.

In the following scriptures, they made claims much like you mention, and were supposedly religious men/preachers of the word, healers or whatever or just Godly people. Bur apparently they were just claims, they were fakes that when it came right down to loving/helping their neighbor, or being obedient to Gods rules, they fell short. One can actually be a preacher by name but be far from Godly. Meaning it's just not as tough to out do them as you seem to think. Or in short they weren't rally "preachers/priests" at all so to get to heaven we simply and sincerely do as God asks as opposed to being a fake, and pretending we are.

Mathew 7:21 Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’ 23Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you workers of lawlessness.’…

Matt 25:41-46 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’ “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’ “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’ “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

Anguspure said:

And even a sorrowful heart is not enough if a person is not meek enough to be lead into the land, to change their path, to follow Him

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And if they follow his path, and stop following it at any time, are they still saved?

Just trying to find out where you are at here.

EastCoastRemnant said:

So you didn't have a choice in repenting? Did God make you? How is that true repentance?

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I tend to look at it as God and I doing it together. determinism vs freewill is a false dichotomy.

discipler7 said:

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Your statements are self-contradictory.

David had faith, belief in Jesus Christ because He went and preached to him for 3 days after His Crucifixion.(1PETER.3:19 & 4:6)
... So, David was saved from hell because he had faith in God's Law AND in God's Son, Jesus.
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Wrt faith in God's Law, some might have kept 100% of the Law, some 75%, some 50%, etc.
... Unintentional sins can be repented of and be forgiven by God with no repercussions or curses/punishments from God.(LEV.4) Intentional sins, like the murder of Uriah by King David, can also be repented of and be forgiven by God but will still carry repercussions/curses, eg King David's sons were cursed by God. Hence, we have verses like DEUT.28:15, 1JOHN.5:16-19, 1COR.5:5 & 11:30, HEBREWS.10:26-31, ACTS.5, etc.

The ideal Christian, as implied by MATTHEW.19:23, is a Jewish Christian who has faith in God's Law and in God's Son = blessed by God with a good and long life on earth AND with everlasting life after death.
... A new Gentile Christian adult may miss this mark by 75% or 50% or 25% or etc because he/she had most likely led a lawless life from childhood(cf; 2TIMOTHY.3:15) = not a very good and long life on earth but still blessed by God with everlasting life after death.
... A Gentile who was brought up as a good Christian from childhood may only miss this mark by about 90% = quite like the ideal Jewish Christian above.

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That is what I am attempting to get Jason to understand.

He says David was Saved before he died. Read my POSTS

Jason0047 said:

Does the Bible teach works must follow God's grace as a part of our salvation?

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No. It is not part of your salvation. Rather, it is proof of it. And if you think your works are coming up short so you had better start toeing the line if you want to keep your salvation, you're doing it wrong.

Cat Loaf You said:

According to your logic can you explain to me this verse then.

21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.


People saying here , even tho they knew who Jesus was and were probably preachers/priests still did not make it , so if they did not make it how can casual human make it ?

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A "casual human" can't. Ever since Adam's sin, human nature is carnal and far from the glory of God. But those who follow after Christ, and Christ has given them His Own Spirit in return to energize them and literally make their carnal nature - their "flesh" - dead to sin, and given us the power of God, we can do all things through Christ which strengthens us. But, the "casual human" can do nothing of himself.

“I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. 3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. 4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me."

Note, Jesus said every branch IN ME. Those are those who said, "Lord, Lord" but Jesus said "I never knew you, you workers of iniquity" Why? Because they did not bear fruit unto repentance. They still willfully sinned.

Examine your doctrine to see if it is of God.

Jason0047 said:

No. They believed for a while and then they later stopped believing. For if they did not believe, then they would not have went out and preached the gospel, etc.

Even the parable of the sower proves that a person can believe for a while.

"...when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away." (Luke 8:13).

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You just don't get it do you.

"There Were No Christians Before Jesus Was Crucified."
"There Were Followers, There Were Disciples, But Jesus was not yet Crucified and Salvation was not yet Available.

Those People Had the Holy Spirit UPON them, But they were NOT BORN AGAIN, The Holy Spirit did not INDWELL THERM.

The Parable of the Sower IS NOT about Salvation, IT IS about The Kingdom of God.

Jesus Preached the Gospel of the Kingdom, NOT the Gospel of Salvation.
They are two very distinct and different things.

JIMINZ said:

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You just don't get it do you.

"There Were No Christians Before Jesus Was Crucified."
"There Were Followers, There Were Disciples, But Jesus was not yet Crucified and Salvation was not yet Available.

Those People Had the Holy Spirit UPON them, But they were NOT BORN AGAIN, The Holy Spirit did not INDWELL THERM.

The Parable of the Sower IS NOT about Salvation, IT IS about The Kingdom of God.

Jesus Preached the Gospel of the Kingdom, NOT the Gospel of Salvation.
They are two very distinct and different things.

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You may be able to answer this one for me: Why did Jesus talk about us taking up our cross? What the heck was he talking about?