Does the Bible teach works must follow God's grace as a part of our salvation?

discipler7

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David did not have FAITH, BELIEF in Jesus Christ as his Savior and Lord for Forgiveness of sins.

David lived under the Law and was judged by the Law.

David was one of those Jesus went and Preached to for three Days, after his Crucifixion.
.
Your statements are self-contradictory.

David had faith, belief in Jesus Christ because He went and preached to him for 3 days after His Crucifixion.(1PETER.3:19 & 4:6)
... So, David was saved from hell because he had faith in God's Law AND in God's Son, Jesus.
_ _ _ _ _ _ _

Wrt faith in God's Law, some might have kept 100% of the Law, some 75%, some 50%, etc.
... Unintentional sins can be repented of and be forgiven by God with no repercussions or curses/punishments from God.(LEV.4) Intentional sins, like the murder of Uriah by King David, can also be repented of and be forgiven by God but will still carry repercussions/curses, eg King David's sons were cursed by God. Hence, we have verses like DEUT.28:15, 1JOHN.5:16-19, 1COR.5:5 & 11:30, HEBREWS.10:26-31, ACTS.5, etc.

The ideal Christian, as implied by MATTHEW.19:23, is a Jewish Christian who has faith in God's Law and in God's Son = blessed by God with a good and long life on earth AND with everlasting life after death.
... A new Gentile Christian adult may miss this mark by 75% or 50% or 25% or etc because he/she had most likely led a lawless life from childhood(cf; 2TIMOTHY.3:15) = not a very good and long life on earth but still blessed by God with everlasting life after death.
... A Gentile who was brought up as a good Christian from childhood may only miss this mark by about 90% = quite like the ideal Jewish Christian above.
 
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Is not Jesus our Lord and our God? If we turn to Him alone we repent of everything that is not who He is.

Yes. But we will be sorrowful and ask God forgiveness (Which then leads to forsaking sin). Did you read Matthew 12:41 and compare it with Jonah 3:6-10?

The King of the Nineties told his people to:

(a) Cry out unto God (i.e. Repentance).
(b) Forsake their evil ways (i.e. the fruits of Repentance).

This is true repentance. Jesus said, the Ninevites will rise up in judgment against this generation because they repented at the preaching of Jonah. (See Matthew 12:41).

When God had seen that the Nineties had turned away from their wicked way, that is when God did not bring judgment or wrath upon them.
 
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There is a huge difference between being a created thing, being curious and being committed.

There is a huge difference in what a man Receives From the Lord For a man being Created, being Curious or a man being Committed.

The Lord Gives His Spirit To All men, knowing, unknowing, believers, unbelievers, faithful, unfaithful, in different Fashions, For different Purposes, To Different Extents.

A Created man, all begin similar to Adam, regardless of the history and age of the Earth and millions of other people....each person is an individual who Must experience the exact same thing of being thrust into this World Without Choice to be on this Earth.

We are born With certain Instincts Primarily being ... Trust, Getting another's Attention,
Getting what an individual Wants from another, and knowing right From Wrong.

The newborn baby will use these instincts, typically toward its Mother-

As a person Grows, they discover, and are curious to try Trusting other things....

Point being... what One IS Trusting... Has the HAS captured that Individual's Attention.

Point being....we humans are short sighted, limited in knowledge, limited in understanding, weak beings.

Point being- we are wired To easily Trust Something...but Not wired with the Strength and Power To Remain in Trusting the Something.

We are all wired To Trust God...He provides the means for us To First Hear About Him - and From there forward- Each individual Exercises His Own Freewill...

To Listen, Trust, Gain more Knowledge, Follow Along For Awhile, Stop Trusting, follow along again, learn more, doubt, wonder, believe, Trust, Deny, stop Trusting, Return learning more, wonder, believe.....

These are Natural things a Natural Born Person experiences toward pretty much toward everything... Including God.

At some point in an individual's life they experience making COMMITMENT'S.

They Pledge an oath, by their own word, and Seal That Oath...with a handshake, a signature, etc. effecting Their Promise, ie their Oath.

People routinely.... BREAK....their own Oaths.
They do so for endless and Multiple Reasons.

Concerning God ....For a man Who Makes an Oath To God....He does First the Same....by their own word.
Then a handshake? No. A signature? No.
God Looking To Their Truth in their Heart ?
Yes!

And here The Commitment Struck between a man and God....IS NOT.... KEPT....
BY the Strength and Will OF the man.....
But IS KEPT BY THE POWER OF GOD, AND HIS SEAL is put upon That man. That man IS FOREVER committed To God ONLY, Above All Other Things.

Does such a man NOW know or understand ALL things? Puffy, No. Not by a long shot.

Will such a man do stupid things? Yes.
Will such a man have contentions with other men, their children, their employers, neighbors, spouses, etc.? Yes.

And? So what? Does Scriptures give one knowledge of what to do about disputes BETWEEN men? Yes.

ARE disputes between men Sin? No.
Is being stupid a Sin? No.

What Does God Forgive a Man For?
The SIN Against God OF DISBELIEF In Him.
The SIN of corrupting your soul.
And ?
The Trespasses one man commits toward another Man...which IS conditional...
Conditions Being;
IF....the man IS committed To God...
IF....the man renders apologies/forgiveness/reparations Between the men FOR (SIN)??...NO.... FOR...
Trespasses Between Men.

SIN is a Transgression Against God.
SIN is Making A Pledge To God with your word, And then NOT KEEPING YOUR WORD!

OT men pledged THEIR Word TO belief IN God, BY Agreeing, TO OBEY His Law.

They Failed repeatedly to Keep their word, and God provided them a WAY to repent and be Forgiven and try again and the Same was repeated over and over.

Then arrives Jesus with the revelation OF a PERMANENT Forgiveness And The Power Given To KEEP A Man From Ever Again Sinning Against God.

THAT method ie WAY...REQUIRES... AS before, The mans word of COMMITMENT!

However THE Commitment Is NOW KEPT FOREVER By the Power of God, Not the weakness of man.

It is paramount for a man to Know What he is not only Committing TO... but ALSO what Are the TERMS of the Commitment and what they Mean.

Grabbing a scripture and pretending it Applies, When it DOES Not Apply...IS A Faulty error, that leads to Unecessary contention among men.

A man COMMITTED TO the Lord Jesus Christ....is Completely Set Apart FROM All other men Not commited To Christ.

There IS NO Valid comparing them To other men....
Not the curious, the wondering, the iffy kind of following and departing, the denying, the doubting, the believing Without commitment, the atheists, those who choose to still be Under the Law....etc.

A man Committed To Christ the Lord Jesus IS Committed IN Complete Fullness IN:
Thee Lord God Almighty...
And it IS BY the Fullness OF
Thee Lord God Almighty that such a man;
SHALL Never Again SIN Against Thee
Lord God Almighty
OR BE separated From
Thee Lord God Almighty.

Such a man IS FOREVER sealed BY and UNTO
Thee Lord God Almighty.

Yes Salvation IS provided For All....
But that Gift comes With Conditions....

An individual HAS to CLAIM AND RECEIVE That Gift...or forgo it...thus Lose it.

Just as you would have to CLAIM and RECEIVE and any other gift.

Every Gift Available For one To Claim it, RECEIVE it, enjoy the benefit of it.....

HAS a TIME LIMIT.

If one Does Not claim Or RECEIVE the Gift within their own personal Allotted Time frame.... they personally Lose it.

1 John 1:9 Applies to me.
Which Instantly should notify others, that an enormous amount of scriptures DO NOT APPLY to me or others WHO have become made Whole and Born OF God.

God Bless
Merry Christmas
SBC

Please take note that I am still standing by my decision (from before) not to read and reply to your posts.
 
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SBC

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Please take note that I am still standing by my decision (from before) not to read and reply to your posts.

Please take note...

I also stand by my decision to respond to Things You Say...whether or not you read them. You notifying me you reject learning anything from me to consider researching in Scripture IS of no consequence to me. However there are others who stand by in reading who may elect to go and search in the scriptures and Be become benefitted.

And personally to you Jason, you will soar when you stop trying to apply Carnal circumstances and Carnal understanding to Spiritual things.

And once achieved....you will also experience people as you are now, standing against you.

God Bless,
SBC
 
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JacksBratt

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Repentance is something that a believer does when they first come to the faith. They admit they are a sinner to Jesus and ask Him to be forgiven of their sins. They do this with the intention that they will turn away from sin and never do it again. Repentance can also be done on occasion (and not as a lifestyle) by a believer who has walked with God, as well. This would be 1 John 2:1 and 1 John 1:9 (cf. 1 John 1:7).
I agree with you on this point. Repentance is as you say... I just don't consider it as "work".
 
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SBC

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Yes. But we will be sorrowful and ask God forgiveness (Which then leads to forsaking sin).

Discipler7

In fact- all men are born Not believing in God.
ONCE A Man believes in the Word of God, manifested in the flesh as a man, And believes that manifested man IS the Christ, And such a man Confesses TRUE, Belief OF and TO God....
That man Is FOREVER forgiven of all of his sin against God, and never again can that man sin against God....because, By and through the Power of God.

Such a man Can and will trespass Against other men. They are not Sins nor does a man have a requirement to run to God and ask for forgiveness.

A man is taught to go to the man they trespassed against to ask the man to forgive him.

Also any man Who forgives a trespasser ... So Also... without asking the Lord forgives the mans own trespassing he has committed against other men.

Only the Lord forgives Sin.
Men forgive trespasses of other men.

ONCE Christ the Lord has forgiven a mans sins it's a done deal...There are no more forgivenesses For SIN...to be had or given to such a man committed to the Lord.

Christs ONCE Giving of His Sinless Blood....AS an atonement for a mans Sin...is the Last atonement man is offered....And ONCE Received by the man it is permanent.

Continued forgivenesses for trespasses of men against men? Yes.

Trust what scripture Does say.

Jesus Forgave men their sins...Against God.
He never said your sins are forgiven ...
Until you stop believing and come to me Again confessing Belief In me, and then getting another washing in Christs blood.

He said your sins ARE forgiven.
If you believe Christs Word Is TRUE... and he said your sins ARE forgiven .... What is different tomorrow, the next day or any day thereafter? Nothing. His Word is True.

And when Scripture says.. Whosoever IS born of God CAN NOT Sin....

Don't you believe Scripture IS TRUE?
Don't you believe Gods Power IS sufficient To Keep you In belief in Him that you can never again Sin Against God?

Sin for Jews Is disobedience To The Law.
Sin for Jews Is disobedience To the Laws that deal both with man and God, man and man, and man and things.
Are you a Jew? Are you still in subjection to OT Laws?
A Gentiles Sin...is to Not Believe Jesus IS the Christ, the Word of God, The Power of God, The appointed Son of God, God Himself manifested in the Flesh...who gave That Flesh and Blood Expressly For our Forgiveness And Eternal Life.

That IS expressly The Way for a Gentile TO become grafted IN and included WITH OT saints who became sons of God according to the WAY God set forth for Hebrews and Jews.

If you are applying Scriptures To you, That Do Not Apply To you...how are you then arriving at the Truth ?

God Bless
Merry Christmas
SBC
 
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SBC

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1 John 1:9 says if we confess our sins he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

1 John 1:7 says that if we walk in the light as he [Christ] is in the light, the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from all sin.

Repentance is something that a believer does when they first come to the faith. They admit they are a sinner to Jesus and ask Him to be forgiven of their sins.

Agree.


They do this with the intention that they will turn away from sin and never do it again.
.

Disagree. Men do this with the Belief, the Word of God IS TRUE and God IS Faithful To His Own Word.

Men are not confessing Faith in their own hope and intentions.... They are in Fact placing Their Trust and Faithfullness In Christ...
That He Shall cleanse a man From All unrightness And Shall Forgive the man Of All of his Sins, And Shall By His Power Keep that man In Righteousness And Free From Sin.

You are teaching a man Can supersede Gods Power In A Man....and the man return To unrighteousness and Sin....

That is in Grievous Conflict with with
1 John 3:9

God Bless
SBC
 
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SBC

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Why on Earth do you think Jesus says to the believer who thinks he did wonderful works to depart from Him because they worked iniquity (sin)? (See Matthew 7:23).

You have corrupted the words thus the understanding.

Nothing whatsoever Says those men Were Committed in Belief In Christ the Lord Jesus.

First they were chastised For Using The Lords Name To cast out demons, heal and such...

Which No Faithful believing Committed man Is Ever chastised For doing.

Then They were Rejected By Jesus....

And the Scripture tells you Why.

They had Not Done The Will of the Father...which IS to Believe Christ the Lord Jesus IS the Son of God, God with us.

God Bless
SBC
 
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I agree with you on this point. Repentance is as you say... I just don't consider it as "work".

So forsaking sin does not involve good works?
John the Baptist told us that we are to bring forth fruits worthy of repentance.
Fruits are good deeds.
Compare Matthew 3:8 with Acts of the Apostles 26:20.
 
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pilgrimage

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I would disagree because even the letter is to be obeyed... we are only ever in danger of sinning if we go contrary to the letter and the spirit. As an example, the letter of the law says, do not murder... this is something to be heeded, not out of fear but out of love for our neighbour. The spirit of that law would tell us that anger towards our neighbour is equally to be avoided because in it we are condemned by the same letter.
Not always Matthew 5:20-42
 
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Not always Matthew 5:20-42

I am not sure how quoting Matthew 5:20-42 helps to prove your case that we are not to obey Jesus's words here in Scripture (i.e. the letter of God's laws). Jesus says that if we are to look upon a woman in lust, our whole body can be cast into hell fire (Matthew 5:28-30). Jesus said there will be consequences if not doing what he says (See Matthew 7:23, and Matthew 7:26-27).

Side Note:

Also, the "letter of the law" is generally in reference to the Old Law and not New Covenant Law. For if a person were to make a list of the commands in the New Testament and obey them, they would believe in Jesus, have faith, believe the gospel, and live holy and righteous and honor Jesus. Scripture says not obeying God's law is sin (See 1 John 3:4).
 
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pilgrimage

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I am not sure how quoting Matthew 5:20-42 helps to prove your case that we are not to obey Jesus's words here (i.e. the letter of God's laws). Jesus says that if we are to look upon a woman in lust, our whole body can be cast into hell fire (Matthew 5:28-30). Jesus said there will be consequences if not doing what he says (See Matthew 7:23, and Matthew 7:26-27).

Side Note:

Also, the letter of the law is in reference to the Old Law and not New Covenant Law. For if a person were to make a list of the commands in the New Testament and obey them, they would believe in Jesus, have faith, believe the gospel, and live holy and righteous and honor Jesus. Scripture says not obeying God's law is sin (See 1 John 3:4).
If you want to believe the elemental spiritual forces of this world rather than on Christ then that's your perogative. Imo that is the scripture that Jesus uses to define the milk from the meat. I won't change your mind and you won't change mine.
 
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1 John 3:10 is also a great verse that shows that works are a necessary requirement as a part of the salvation process (after they are saved by God's grace):

"In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother."
 
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If you want to believe the elemental spiritual forces of this world rather than on Christ then that's your perogative. Imo that is the scripture that Jesus uses to define the milk from the meat. I won't change your mind and you won't change mine.

The milk teaching is believing on Jesus as one's Savior. The meat teaching is discerning between good and evil and doing what Jesus says.

1 Corinthians 3:2-3 says,
"I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able. For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?"

Hebrews 5:12-14 says,
"For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat. For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe. But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil."
 
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If you want to believe the elemental spiritual forces of this world rather than on Christ then that's your perogative. Imo that is the scripture that Jesus uses to define the milk from the meat. I won't change your mind and you won't change mine.

We are told to imitate Christ in Scripture (1 Peter 4:1-2).
Jesus said His meat is to DO the will of the Father. and to finish His work.

32 "But he said unto them, I have meat to eat that ye know not of.
33 Therefore said the disciples one to another, Hath any man brought him ought to eat?
34 Jesus saith unto them, My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish his work."
(John 4:32-34).
 
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If you want to believe the elemental spiritual forces of this world rather than on Christ then that's your perogative. Imo that is the scripture that Jesus uses to define the milk from the meat. I won't change your mind and you won't change mine.

Milk is for babies normally. Meat is for those who are older to be able to handle meat. Even when it comes to physical work: I know I need meat to get me through the day. If I am at home relaxing around the house, I could just drink juice or milk and be okay (because I am not being as physical like at my job).

Milk = doing simple things.
Meat = doing something physical (that can be hard sometimes).
 
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"follow God's grace"

What does that even mean?

We are saved by grace. Works will follow, but they are not what saves you. And the works or lack thereof are what determine the believers' reward after this life.

We don't do works to be saved. We do works because we are saved.

And if you think you are coming up short, so you try to be "better" so you'll be saved, you're doing it wrong.
 
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"follow God's grace"

What does that even mean?

We are saved by grace. Works will follow, but they are not what saves you. And the works or lack thereof are what determine the believers' reward after this life.

We don't do works to be saved. We do works because we are saved.

And if you think you are coming up short, so you try to be "better" so you'll be saved, you're doing it wrong.

But God's goal is to produce fruit.

"Every branch in Me that does not produce fruit He removes, and He prunes every branch that produces fruit so that it will produce more fruit." (John 15:2).

It is not an option.
If a branch does not produce fruit, he removes it.
 
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But God's goal is to produce fruit.

"Every branch in Me that does not produce fruit He removes, and He prunes every branch that produces fruit so that it will produce more fruit." (John 15:2).

It is not an option.
If a branch does not produce fruit, he removes it.
OK. But what does that really mean? As I said before, works are not what save. Works are the result of salvation. I suggest that he's pruning because the person was not truly saved in the first place.

In Discipleship Dynamics they used a great analogy using a chair as a prop. You can say you believe that the chair is capable of holding your weight. You can talk about it. You can shout to the world that the chair can hold your weight and you have complete faith in the chair to hold your weight.

But if you never actually sit in the chair, you are a liar - and will be pruned.
 
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