Does Israel get taken over again?

keras

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But Daniel 9:25 only tells of 7 + 62= 69 'weeks', passing up until Jesus is Crucified.
The 70th remains to be fulfilled.

If you believe otherwise, please show us when there was a 7 year period, that fulfilled Daniel 7:27
 
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jgr

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But Daniel 9:25 only tells of 7 + 62= 69 'weeks', passing up until Jesus is Crucified.
The 70th remains to be fulfilled.

If you believe otherwise, please show us when there was a 7 year period, that fulfilled Daniel 7:27
The thread deals specifically with 9:24.

Christ proves that He has fulfilled and completed at Calvary the accomplishments which it describes.

Of course, with 9:24 fulfilled and completed, and 9:24 falling within the 70th week, then 9:25-27 are also fulfilled and completed.
 
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keras

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The thread deals specifically with 9:24.

Christ proves that He has fulfilled and completed at Calvary the accomplishments which it describes.

Of course, with 9:24 fulfilled and completed, and 9:24 falling within the 70th week, then 9:25-27 are also fulfilled and completed.
I hadn't noticed that: .....rebellion is stopped, sin brought to an end, iniquity expiated, everlasting righteousness brought in, the visions and prophecy completed and the Most High anointed.

Where do you live? If those things are done where you are; I want to go there!
 
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jgr

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I hadn't noticed that: .....rebellion is stopped, sin brought to an end, iniquity expiated, everlasting righteousness brought in, the visions and prophecy completed and the Most High anointed.

Where do you live? If those things are done where you are; I want to go there!
No need to go anywhere. Right where you are is as good as everywhere else.

Luke 24
25
Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken:
26 Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?
27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.
44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.
45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures.

Acts 13
29
And when they had fulfilled all that was written of him, they took him down from the tree, and laid him in a sepulchre.
 
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keras

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JGR, the Way to fulfil these things has been made ready, but obviously the world awaits for it to happen.

While you remain stuck in preterist beliefs, I won't waste my time any longer on this issue.
 
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jgr

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JGR, the Way to fulfil these things has been made ready, but obviously the world awaits for it to happen.

While you remain stuck in preterist beliefs, I won't waste my time any longer on this issue.
Keras, either you believe Christ when He said He fulfilled all concerning Himself, or you don't.

It has nothing to do with preterism or any other "ism".

They're the plain, simple, indisputable words of our Lord.

And they've been reality since Calvary.
 
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SummaScriptura

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What an extraordinarily scripturally ignorant, and false, statement. Here, to set you on your way, are 21 Biblical quotations showing that the City of Jerusalem was considered holy.


Psalm 3:4

I cried unto the Lord with my voice, and he heard me out of his holy hill. Selah.


Psalm 15:1

Lord, who shall abide in thy tabernacle? who shall dwell in thy holy hill?


Psalm 43:3

O send out thy light and thy truth: let them lead me; let them bring me unto thy holy hill, and to thy tabernacles.


Psalm 99:9

Exalt the Lord our God, and worship at his holy hill; for the Lord our God is holy.


Psalm 2:6

Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion.

Isaiah 52:1

Awake, awake; put on thy strength, O Zion; put on thy beautiful garments, O Jerusalem, the holy city: for henceforth there shall no more come into thee the uncircumcised and the unclean.



Isaiah 64:10

Thy holy cities are a wilderness, Zion is a wilderness, Jerusalem a desolation.


Joel 2:1

Blow ye the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy mountain: let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the day of the Lord cometh, for it is nigh at hand;

Joel 3:17

So shall ye know that I am the Lord your God dwelling in Zion, my holy mountain: then shall Jerusalem be holy, and there shall no strangers pass through her any more


Nehemiah 11:1

And the rulers of the people dwelt at Jerusalem: the rest of the people also cast lots, to bring one of ten to dwell in Jerusalem the holy city, and nine parts to dwell in other cities


Isaiah 27:13

And it shall come to pass in that day, that the great trumpet shall be blown, and they shall come which were ready to perish in the land of Assyria, and the outcasts in the land of Egypt, and shall worship the Lord in the holy mount at Jerusalem.


Isaiah 66:20

And they shall bring all your brethren for an offering unto the Lord out of all nations upon horses, and in chariots, and in litters, and upon mules, and upon swift beasts, to my holy mountain Jerusalem, saith the Lord, as the children of Israel bring an offering in a clean vessel into the house of the Lord.


Daniel 9:16

O Lord, according to all thy righteousness, I beseech thee, let thine anger and thy fury be turned away from thy city Jerusalem, thy holy mountain: because for our sins, and for the iniquities of our fathers, Jerusalem and thy people are become a reproach to all that are about us.


Zechariah 8:3

Thus saith the Lord; I am returned unto Zion, and will dwell in the midst of Jerusalem: and Jerusalem shall be called a city of truth; and the mountain of the Lord of hosts the holy mountain

Nehemiah 11:18

All the Levites in the holy city were two hundred fourscore and four.


Psalm 46:4

There is a river, the streams whereof shall make glad the city of God, the holy place of the tabernacles of the most High.


Isaiah 48:2

For they call themselves of the holy city, and stay themselves upon the God of Israel; The Lord of hosts is his name.

Daniel 9:24

Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.


Matthew 4:5

Then the devil taketh him up into the holy city, and setteth him on a pinnacle of the temple,


Matthew 27:53

And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.


Revelation 11:2

But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.
There is a difference between a place being a holy place and a place being the holy place. The holy place is in the temple.
 
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keras said in post #125:

. . . the Way to fulfil these things has been made ready, but obviously the world awaits for it to happen.

That brought to mind the question, which is sometimes asked: "Doesn't premillennialism make Christ a failure for not establishing His physical Kingdom at His 1st coming?"

The answer is No. For He was never meant to establish it at His 1st coming. Instead, He was meant to meekly suffer and die on the Cross for our sins (Isaiah 53), by which work the spiritual aspect of His Kingdom (Romans 14:17) could be established on the earth first (Romans 3:24-26). It wasn't a contingency plan, but was always determined, that He wouldn't establish the physical aspect of His kingdom until His (still unfulfilled) Second Coming (Zechariah 14:3-21, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

keras said in post #125:

While you remain stuck in preterist beliefs, I won't waste my time any longer on this issue.

That brought to mind the question: Why does partial preterism believe in a future Second Coming, but not a future Tribulation, when:

1. The Second Coming and rapture (the gathering together/catching up together of the Church: 2 Thessalonians 2:1; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17) must occur "immediately after" the Tribulation of Matthew 24 and Revelation chapters 6 to 18 (Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6);

2. The Second Coming and rapture can't occur until sometime after the man of sin (commonly called the Antichrist, also called the beast) sits in a 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem during the Tribulation and declares himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:1-4, Daniel 11:31,36, Matthew 24:15-31, Revelation 11:1-2, Revelation 13:4-18); and

3. At Jesus' Second Coming to rapture and marry the Church, He will destroy the Antichrist (2 Thessalonians 2:1,8, Revelation 19:7,20)?

Partial preterism might answer: "It's obvious the Second Coming hasn't happened yet". And that's right. But full preterism nonetheless still mistakenly claims the Second Coming, resurrection and rapture described in 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 (and in 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:29-31; 1 Corinthians 15:22-23,52-54 and Revelation 19:7 to 20:6) have already happened. For full preterism employs the same "it's only allegorical, not literal" argument which partial preterism uses to mistakenly claim all the highly-detailed, myriad different events of the Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 have already happened. If partial preterism has no problem accepting the Second Coming, resurrection of the Church and rapture haven't occurred yet, for nowhere in history do we find the events of 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 (which are the same events as 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:29-31; 1 Corinthians 15:22-23,52-54 and Revelation 19:7 to 20:6), then why does partial preterism have a problem accepting the fact the events of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 haven't occurred yet either, for nowhere in history do we find these events either?
 
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SummaScriptura said in post #127:

There is a difference between a place being a holy place and a place being the holy place. The holy place is in the temple.

Good point.

For Revelation 11:1-2, Matthew 24:15, Daniel 11:31,36 and 2 Thessalonians 2:4 require there will be a 3rd Jewish temple in the earthly Jerusalem during the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24. This 3rd temple will coexist with the Church like the 2nd temple did (Luke 24:53, Acts 2:46, Acts 22:17), and like the temple building in heaven does (Revelation 11:19). The 3rd temple could be built on Jerusalem's Temple Mount by the ultra-Orthodox Jews, after they (or great earthquakes) clear the site by destroying the Muslim Dome of the Rock and the Al Aqsa Mosque. Shortly after they build the temple, the future Antichrist could attack and defeat them, and a false Messiah leading them (Daniel 11:22).

Then the Antichrist could "cut" a peace treaty with them and their false "Messiah" (Daniel 9:26a, Daniel 11:23a), permitting them to keep the temple, and to continue to (mistakenly) perform the daily Mosaic animal sacrifices in front of it, for at least 7 years (Daniel 9:27a), so long as they give up the outer court of the temple (Revelation 11:2a) to the Muslims, so the Muslims can rebuild the Al Aqsa Mosque on the southern end of the Temple Mount and resume worship there. The ultra-Orthodox Jews could grudgingly agree to this, if the only other option is for them to lose the temple entirely. They could then build a high wall between the temple and the mosque to keep the temple from being "defiled".

But then, only some 3.5 years after making the peace treaty, the Antichrist will break the treaty, attack the temple, stop the daily Mosaic animal sacrifices, place the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of the temple (Daniel 9:27b, Daniel 11:31, Matthew 24:15), and then sit himself (at least one time) in the temple and proclaim himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36). Thus could begin the Antichrist's literal, 3.5-year Luciferian (Satanic) worldwide reign of terror (Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 12:9; 2 Thessalonians 2:9).

At the very end of the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, the Antichrist (Daniel 11:45) and the world's armies will pillage Jerusalem right before Jesus Christ's Second Coming (Zechariah 14:2-21). And at the Second Coming there will be tremendous earth changes in the vicinity of Jerusalem (Zechariah 14:4-5). These events could result in all of Jerusalem's structures, including the 3rd temple and the Wailing Wall (also called the Western Wall), being broken down so not one stone will be left on another (Luke 19:44, Matthew 24:2). Then the returned Jesus (Zechariah 14:4, Acts 1:11-12) will rebuild Jerusalem and make it the capital of the world (Zechariah 14:8-19, Micah 4:1-4). He will also build a 4th temple there (Zechariah 14:20-21, Zechariah 6:12-13). It will serve a similar function for the Church during the future Millennium (of Revelation 20:4-6) as the 2nd temple served for the Church in the 1st century AD (Luke 24:53, Acts 2:46, Acts 22:17), and as the temple building in heaven (Revelation 11:19) serves for those in heaven (Revelation 7:15).
 
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A71

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No, this is not at all valid. The word topos meaning place, or city, used by Jesus in his Temple Prophecy, is not used by the Septuagint when referring to the Temple. So the argument falls at the first hurdle.

Jesus used the word advisedly. Topos actually can mean an enclosed space or city, and that is exactly what the reader must understand here, according to the textual instruction.
 
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jgr

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There is a difference between a place being a holy place and a place being the holy place. The holy place is in the temple.

History records that the Judean Christians acted upon Jesus' warning as recorded in Luke's account, fleeing upon seeing Jerusalem encircled with the Roman armies. There would have been no confusion in their minds regarding whether Jesus meant Jerusalem or the temple, recognizing that if they delayed, they would perish well before the Romans reached the temple.

Mark's account describes the abomination of desolation as "standing where it ought not". The Roman armies' presence on Jerusalem's doorstep would certainly qualify as "standing where it ought not", well before the temple was occupied.

As inspired Scripture, the gospel accounts must harmonize. This they do, in addition to harmonizing with history.

Once again, God preserved His faithful believing remnant.
 
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SummaScriptura

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History records that the Judean Christians acted upon Jesus' warning as recorded in Luke's account, fleeing upon seeing Jerusalem encircled with the Roman armies. There would have been no confusion in their minds regarding whether Jesus meant Jerusalem or the temple, recognizing that if they delayed, they would perish well before the Romans reached the temple.

Mark's account describes the abomination of desolation as "standing where it ought not". The Roman armies' presence on Jerusalem's doorstep would certainly qualify as "standing where it ought not", well before the temple was occupied.

As inspired Scripture, the gospel accounts must harmonize. This they do, in addition to harmonizing with history.

Once again, God preserved His faithful believing remnant.
Your problem is compounded by your trying to harmonize the passages by blending them. They should be harmonized by adding them to each other. Luke 21:20-24 is historical. Matthew 24:15-31 is yet future. Like this:
Luke and Matthew said:
20 “But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation has come near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, and let those who are inside the city depart, and let not those who are out in the country enter it, 22 for these are days of vengeance, to fulfill all that is written. 23 Alas for women who are pregnant and for those who are nursing infants in those days! For there will be great distress upon the earth and wrath against this people. 24 They will fall by the edge of the sword and be led captive among all nations, and Jerusalem will be trampled underfoot by the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

15 “So when you see the abomination of desolation spoken of by the prophet Daniel, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand), 16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let the one who is on the housetop not go down to take what is in his house, 18 and let the one who is in the field not turn back to take his cloak. 19 And alas for women who are pregnant and for those who are nursing infants in those days! 20 Pray that your flight may not be in winter or on a Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be. 22 And if those days had not been cut short, no human being would be saved. But for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short. 23 Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There he is!’ do not believe it. 24 For false christs and false prophets will arise and perform great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect. 25 See, I have told you beforehand. 26 So, if they say to you, ‘Look, he is in the wilderness,’ do not go out. If they say, ‘Look, he is in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it. 27 For as the lightning comes from the east and shines as far as the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 28 Wherever the corpse is, there the vultures will gather.

29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
 
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jgr

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Your problem is compounded by your trying to harmonize the passages by blending them. They should be harmonized by adding them to each other. Luke 21:20-24 is historical. Matthew 24:15-31 is yet future. Like this:
I don't have a problem, as I'm simply reiterating 18 centuries of the wisdom of historical Church scholars. They don't have a problem either.


Matthew 24
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains...

Luke 21
21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains...


You are claiming that these are not referring to the same historical event?

Can you cite authoritative scholarship prior to the 19th century for support?
 
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A71 said in post #130:

The word topos meaning place, or city, used by Jesus in his Temple Prophecy, is not used by the Septuagint when referring to the Temple.

Note that it doesn't have to be used in the Septuagint, which was only a man-made, Greek translation of the original, Hebrew scriptures, which could refer to the inner part of the Jewish temple as the holy (H6944) place (e.g. Leviticus 16:2, Exodus 28:29, Exodus 28:35).

And the holy (G0040) place (G5117) in Matthew 24:15 refers to the same, inner part of the Jewish temple as the holy place (G0039) in Hebrews 9:25, Hebrews 9:3, and Hebrews 9:8.

Also, one reason that the 3rd Jewish temple of Matthew 24:15, Revelation 11:1-2, Daniel 11:31,36 and 2 Thessalonians 2:4 hasn't been built yet is the Israeli government has been careful to protect the Muslim Dome of the Rock and the Al Aqsa Mosque (which are on the Temple Mount in Jerusalem) ever since Israel took military control of the Temple Mount back in 1967. For the Israeli government knows if the ultra-Orthodox Jews in Israel were to destroy these 2 buildings (the 3rd-holiest sites in Islam) in order to clear the Temple Mount for a 3rd Jewish temple, this could mean the end of the current state of Israel. For enraged Muslim armies and militias could attack Israel en masse in an all-out jihad and defeat it completely.

While the ultra-Orthodox Jews are no doubt aware of this danger, they believe the 3rd Jewish temple must nonetheless be built exactly where the prior Jewish temples stood: right over the Rock of Sacrifice (the Rock of the Dome of the Rock) on which Abraham almost sacrificed Isaac. And the ultra-Orthodox Jews could be brought to the point where they will even desire to see the end of the current, secular state of Israel, believing that only in its demise will God make it possible for them to establish a new, perfectly ultra-Orthodox, theocratic city-state of (what they could call) "the True Israel". They could establish this within the walled Old City of Jerusalem (which contains the Temple Mount), and build on the Temple Mount a 3rd Jewish temple before which they can restart the daily Mosaic animal sacrifices, and perfectly keep every jot and tittle of the Mosaic law, and banish every non-kosher person and thing from ever entering within Old Jerusalem's "Holy walls".

(This could point to another reason the current, secular government of Israel doesn't want to let the ultra-Orthodox Jews build a 3rd Jewish temple: out of fear that the secular authority of the Israeli government could subsequently get undermined. For once temple practices resumed and a priesthood came into power, a creep toward theocracy could ensue in Israel, where priests and rabbis would become powerful enough to replace the secular leaders. So the latter could want to place a hold on any drift in that direction by forbidding the building of a 3rd Jewish temple.)

Something which could help to bring the ultra-Orthodox Jews to the point of desiring to see the end of the current, secular state of Israel would be them getting squeezed out of their settlements in Samaria and Judaea (also called the West Bank), and in eastern Jerusalem, as part of a peace deal handing these areas over to a Palestinian state. For the ultra-Orthodox Jews (rightly) see Samaria, Judaea and Jerusalem as the historically most important and holy parts of the land promised by God to Israel since the time of Abraham (Exodus 32:13). So when they start to get squeezed out of these areas, in a rage they could mass in their tens of thousands, armed with machine guns (which they're allowed to have for self-defense against the Palestinians). And led by 3 huge bulldozers they could march as a great army to the Old City of Jerusalem and go up on the Temple Mount and completely destroy the Dome of the Rock and the Al Aqsa Mosque.

(A fear of the ultra-Orthodox Jews resorting to violence could be one of the reasons the current Israeli government refuses to hinder Jewish settlement activity in Samaria, Judaea and eastern Jerusalem. It could also be one of the reasons the U.S. government has been convinced by Israel to back off from requiring any such hindrance, even though the U.S. sometimes complains about the settlements. But if down the road, the current, geriatric, lifeless, Palestinian leadership of Fatah in the West Bank is replaced by a younger, very-energetic leadership, which is able to whip up pressure from the Middle East's Arab masses and governments (and even from non-Arab governments such as the French and the EU) for a Palestinian state; and if this pressure becomes so extreme it begins to threaten to overthrow the current U.S. hegemony over the Arab world, the U.S. could decide to force Israel to surrender the Jewish settlements to a Palestinian state. Also, there could be a change within Israel itself so that a majority of Israelis, including civilians, army leaders, judges, etc., decide it's time to remove the current, hard-line Israeli government and replace it, during an election, with a more liberal government willing to implement a 2-state solution with the Palestinians.)

Besides the ultra-Orthodox Jews in Israel getting squeezed out of their settlements at some point in our future, something else which could help to tip the scales toward them becoming violent would be the rising up in Israel of a miracle-working, ultra-Orthodox Jewish false "Messiah" (cf. Matthew 24:24), who could tell the ultra-Orthodox Jews something like:

"God says now is the time for us to take back religious control of the Holy Temple Mount, and rid it of all the detestable shrines which the Muslims have placed upon it. We are to sanctify it in the name of our God, so that we might rebuild His Holy Temple there. Listen, my brethren, fear not the Muslims' reaction when we retake religious control of the Holy Temple Mount. For God Himself is with us. He will protect us perfectly. Have I not shown you His mighty Power working through Me? Fear not any men, but fear only our Mighty God, who now commands us to rebuild His Holy Temple at the place He determined from the time of our Father Abraham. Our God gave us back the Holy Temple Mount way back in 1967 C.E. But what have we done with it over all the time since then? Nothing! How can this be? How can we have allowed some merely-secular, so-called 'Israeli' government invented by sinful men to keep us, God's holy people, from even setting foot back on the Temple Mount, and to let it remain under the religious control of the vile Muslims? Let us all rise up now, my brethren! Let us all rise up, in the name of our God, and let us do mighty exploits to the Glory of His Holy Name!"

With such rhetoric, accompanied by his working of amazing miracles (cf. Matthew 24:24), a false ultra-Orthodox Jewish "Messiah" in Israel could whip up the ultra-Orthodox Jews there into a religious frenzy, so they will all with great zeal and without any fear march in their tens of thousands to the Temple Mount, and take total control of it and then rejoice there and dance and sing holy hymns to God "for His great and mighty Victory".

Something else which could help tip the scales toward the ultra-Orthodox Jews in Israel becoming violent is the occurrence of a series of great earthquakes in Jerusalem which will severely damage the Dome of the Rock and Al Aqsa Mosque, to the point where they will stop being used. For the ultra-Orthodox Jews could see this as (in their words) "Clearly a portent from God that He will no longer allow the Muslims to trample His Holy Mountain. We must now reassert Jewish religious control over it and rebuild His Holy Temple there".

Something else which could help tip the scales toward the ultra-Orthodox Jews in Israel becoming violent is their finding out the location of the Ark of the Covenant, which could be hidden in a sealed cave in Mount Nebo in Jordan (2 Maccabees 2:4-8, cf. Deuteronomy 32:49). Or the Ark could be buried under an ancient ruined fort in the desert east of Jerusalem. The Copper Scroll could contain the clues as to where the Ark is buried in the fort (e.g. "under the third step"). The Ark could have been located there already with ground-penetrating radar by some non-religious treasure hunters, but the Israeli government could be holding up a digging permit to retrieve the Ark, because the government is afraid the ultra-Orthodox Jews could see a retrieval of the Ark as (in their words) "An unmistakable sign from God that now is the time for us to rebuild His Holy Temple". So the Israeli government has a motive to keep the location of the buried Ark top secret.

Fearing that some ultra-Orthodox Jews could nonetheless somehow discover the top secret location of the buried Ark, and go there in the dead of night and dig it up without a permit from, or any notification to, the Israeli government, the government could have placed armed guards and surveillance cameras to watch over the buried Ark's location day and night.

But if the buried Ark's location is found out by some ultra-Orthodox Jews, they could round up tens of thousands of their fellows, armed with machine guns, and they could suddenly swarm the location, overwhelm any armed guards there, and hold off any subsequently-arrived IDF troops and tanks long enough to get the Ark out of the ground. Once it's out and the IDF troops actually see it, it's unlikely they're going to try to stop the ultra-Orthodox Jews from parading it to the Temple Mount, they will be in such awe.

Also, once the ultra-Orthodox Jews make it to the Temple Mount and begin completely destroying the Muslim Dome of the Rock and the Al Aqsa Mosque, it's unlikely the IDF troops are going to open fire, whether with lead bullets or rubber bullets, on their fellow Jews, slaughtering or injuring hundreds or thousands of them. Also, increasing numbers of IDF officers are very religious, so they could order their troops to stand down. And if some non-religious officers convince their troops to employ tear gas in an attempt to simply disperse the ultra-Orthodox Jews without harming them, this could be thwarted by the ultra-Orthodox Jews having brought along gas masks (which, ironically, could have been issued to them by the Israeli government itself, back when there was a fear Saddam Hussein would send Scud missiles into Israel with chemical weapons payloads).

So the Israeli government could be unable to prevent the complete destruction of the Dome of the Rock and the Al Aqsa Mosque at the hands of the ultra-Orthodox Jews. And so the Israeli government could be unable to prevent the subsequent, retaliatory destruction of the state of Israel at the hands of enraged Muslim armies and militias.
 
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A71

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I am not going to debate it. If you seriously think Matthew 24 is not the same prophecy as Luke 21 and Mark 13, then obviously you will come up with new interpretations.

What you will need to consider is that all three prophetic dialogues not only are extremely closely correlated, but also all took place in the same three day preparation period before passover. Since in all three dialogues Jesus was talking about the destruction of the Temple, I see no possible way you can try and turn Matthew into a different kind of response.
 
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SummaScriptura

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I am not going to debate it. If you seriously think Matthew 24 is not the same prophecy as Luke 21 and Mark 13, then obviously you will come up with new interpretations.

What you will need to consider is that all three prophetic dialogues not only are extremely closely correlated, but also all took place in the same three day preparation period before passover. Since in all three dialogues Jesus was talking about the destruction of the Temple, I see no possible way you can try and turn Matthew into a different kind of response.
All three accounts are taken from what we call the Olivet Discourse. None of them is complete in themselves but when taken together answer three questions, not one.

1. When will these things be? (Temple's destruction)
2. What will be the sign of your coming?
3. What will be the sign of the end of the age?
 
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SummaScriptura

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I don't have a problem, as I'm simply reiterating 18 centuries of the wisdom of historical Church scholars. They don't have a problem either.


Matthew 24
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains...

Luke 21
21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains...


You are claiming that these are not referring to the same historical event?

Can you cite authoritative scholarship prior to the 19th century for support?
There had been a number of "fleeings to the mountains" before Jesus gave this discourse. One notable one was in 167 BC documented in 1 Maccabees 1. The righteous Jews fled to the wilderness.

Jesus' Olivet Discourse taken in its totality describes two more.

Luke 21 is triggered by seeing Jerusalem surrounded by armies. But that is a problem. How do you flee Jerusalem when it is surrounded by armies? When the siege of Vespasian withdrew, the Christians fled to Pella. Titus returned a year later and destroyed Jerusalem.

Matthew 24 is triggered by the Abomination of Desolation standing in the holy place.
 
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jgr

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Matthew 24 historicists

160AD Clement of Alexandria (On Matthew 24:15, The Abomination of Desolation) "We have still to add to our chronology the following, -- I mean the days which Daniel indicates from the desolation of Jerusalem, the seven years and seven months of the reign of Vespasian. For the two years are added to the seventeen months and eighteen days of Otho, and Galba, and Vitellius; and the result is three years and six months, which is "the half of the week," as Daniel the prophet said. For he said that there were two thousand three hundred days from the time that the abomination of Nero stood in the holy city, till its destruction. For thus the declaration, which is subjoined, shows: "How long shall be the vision, the sacrifice taken away, the abomination of desolation, which is given, and the power and the holy place shall be trodden under foot? And he said to him, Till the evening and morning, two thousand three hundred days, and the holy place shall be taken away."


325AD Eusebius Pamphilius, Ecclesiastical History: (On Matthew 24:15) "--all these things, as well as the many great sieges which were carried on against the cities of Judea, and the excessive. sufferings endured by those that fled to Jerusalem itself, as to a city of perfect safety, and finally the general course of the whole war, as well as its particular occurrences in detail, and how at last the abomination of desolation, proclaimed by the prophets, stood in the very temple of God, so celebrated of old, the temple which was now awaiting its total and final destruction by fire,-- all these things any one that wishes may find accurately described in the history written by Josephus." (Book III, Ch. 5)


375AD 'John' Chrysostom, Homily St. Matthew: (On Matthew 24:15) "And see how He relates the war, by the things that seem to be small setting forth how intolerable it was to be. For, "Then,"saith He, "let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains." Then, When? When these things should be, "when the abomination of desolation should stand in the holy place." Whence He seems to me to be speaking of the armies." (Homily 76, Number 1)


John Calvin

Matthew 24:15

When you shall see the abomination of desolation. Because the destruction of the temple and city of Jerusalem, together with the overthrow of the whole Jewish government, was (as we have already said) a thing incredible, and because it might be thought strange, that the disciples could not be saved without being torn from that nation, to which had been committed the adoption and the covenant (Romans 9:4) of eternal salvation, Christ confirms both by the testimony of Daniel As if he had said, That you may not be too strongly attached to the temple and to the ceremonies of the Law, God has limited them to a fixed time, 136 and has long ago declared, that when the Redeemer should come, sacrifices would cease; and that it may not give you uneasiness to be cut off from your own nation, God has also forewarned his people, that in due time it would be rejected.


Adam Clarke

Matthew 24:15

The abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel - This abomination of desolation, St. Luke, (Luk 21:20, Luk 21:21), refers to the Roman army; and this abomination standing in the holy place is the Roman army besieging Jerusalem; this, our Lord says, is what was spoken of by Daniel the prophet, in the ninth and eleventh chapters of his prophecy; and so let every one who reads these prophecies understand them; and in reference to this very event they are understood by the rabbins. The Roman army is called an abomination, for its ensigns and images, which were so to the Jews. Josephus says, (War, b. vi. chap. 6), the Romans brought their ensigns into the temple, and placed them over against the eastern gate, and sacrificed to them there. The Roman army is therefore fitly called the abomination, and the abomination which maketh desolate, as it was to desolate and lay waste Jerusalem; and this army besieging Jerusalem is called by St. Mark, Mar 13:14, standing where it ought not, that is, as in the text here, the holy place; as not only the city, but a considerable compass of ground about it, was deemed holy, and consequently no profane persons should stand on it.

Matthew 24:16

Then let them which be in Judea flee into the mountains - This counsel was remembered and wisely followed by the Christians afterwards. Eusebius and Epiphanius say, that at this juncture, after Cestius Gallus had raised the siege, and Vespasian was approaching with his army, all who believed in Christ left Jerusalem and fled to Pella, and other places beyond the river Jordan; and so they all marvellously escaped the general shipwreck of their country: not one of them perished. See on Mat 24:13 (note).


Matthew Henry

Matthew 24:15

Here he comes more closely to answer their questions concerning the desolation of the temple; and what he said here, would be of use to his disciples, both for their conduct and for their comfort, in reference to that great event; he describes the several steps of that calamity, such as are usual in war.1. The Romans setting up the abomination of desolation in the holy place, v. 15. Now, (1.) Some understand by this an image, or statue, set up in the temple by some of the Roman governors, which was very offensive to the Jews, provoked them to rebel, and so brought the desolation upon them. The image of Jupiter Olympius, which Antiochus caused to be set upon the altar of God, is called Bdelygma eremoseos —The abomination of desolation, the very word here used by the historian, 1 Mac. 1:54 . Since the captivity in Babylon, nothing was, nor could be, more distasteful to the Jews than an image in the holy place, as appeared by the mighty opposition they made when Caligula offered to set up his statue there, which had been of fatal consequence, if it had not been prevented, and the matter accommodated, by the conduct of Petronius; but Herod did set up an eagle over the temple-gate; and, some say, the statue of Titus was set up in the temple. (2.) Others choose to expound it by the parallel place (Lu. 21:20 ),when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies. Jerusalem was the holy city, Canaan the holy land, the Mount Moriah, which lay about Jerusalem, for its nearness to the temple was, they thought in a particular manner holy ground; on the country lying round about Jerusalem the Roman army was encamped, that was the abomination that made desolate. The land of an enemy is said to be the land which thou abhorrest (Isa. 7:16 ); so an enemy’s army to a weak but wilful people may well be called the abomination.Now this is said to be spoken of by Daniel, the prophet, who spoke more plainly of the Messiah and his kingdom than any of the Old-Testament prophets did. He speaks of an abomination making desolate, which should be set up by Antiochus (Dan. 11:31Dan. 12:11 ); but this that our Saviour refers to, we have in the message that the angel brought him (Dan. 9:27 ), of what should come at the end of seventy weeks, long after the former; for the overspreading of abominations, or, as the margin reads it, with the abominable armies (which comes home to the prophecy here), he shall make it desolate.


John Wesley

Matthew 24:15-16
24:15
When ye see the abomination of desolation - Daniel's term is, The abomination that maketh desolate, Daniel 11:31 ; that is, the standards of the desolating legions, onwhich they bear the abominable images of their idols: Standing in the holy place - Not only the temple and the mountain on which it stood, but the whole city of Jerusalem, and several furlongs of land round about it, were accounted holy; particularly the mount on which our Lord now sat, and on which the Romans afterward planted their ensigns. He that readeth let him understand - Whoever reads that prophecy of Daniel, let him deeply consider it. 13:14 ; Luke 21:20; Dan 9:27.

24:16
Then let them who are in Judea flee to the mountains - So the Christians did, and were preserved. It is remarkable that after the Romans under Cestus Gallus made their first advances toward Jerusalem, they suddenly withdrew again, in a most unexpected and indeed impolitic manner. This the Christians took as a signal to retire, which they did, some to Pella, and others to Mount Libanus.


Charles Spurgeon

Matthew 24:15-18

This portion of our Savior’s words appears to relate solely to the destruction of Jerusalem. As soon as Christ’s disciples saw “the abomination of desolation,” that is, the Roman ensigns with their idolatrous emblems, “stand in the holy place,” they knew that the time for them to escape had arrived—and they did “flee into the mountains.” The Christians in Jerusalem and the surrounding towns and villages “in Judaea,” availed themselves of the first opportunity for eluding the Roman armies, and fled to the mountain city of Pella, in Perea, where they were preserved from the general destruction which overthrew the Jews. There was no time to spare before the final investment of the guilty city. The man “on the housetop” could “not come down to take anything out of his house,” and the man “in the field” could not “return back to take his clothes.” They must flee to the mountains in the greatest haste, the moment that they saw “Jerusalem compassed with armies” (Luke 21:20).
 
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A71 said in post #136:

Since in all three dialogues Jesus was talking about the destruction of the Temple, I see no possible way you can try and turn Matthew into a different kind of response.

All three dialogues (Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21) are parallel, and are commonly called the Olivet Discourse.

But note that none of the dialogues' references to the destruction of the Temple was fulfilled in 70 AD.

For example, the end of the 2nd Jewish temple building (also called Herod's temple building) in Jerusalem in 70 AD didn't fulfill Matthew 24:2. For the stones of the 2nd temple's Wailing Wall (also called the Western Wall) still stand today one on top of the other, just as they did when Jesus Christ spoke that prophecy. Matthew 24:2 included the Wailing Wall, for Matthew 24:2 wasn't referring only to the single, 2nd temple building which stood in the center of the Temple Mount and which contained the holy place and the most holy place, but was referring to "all these things", all the plural "buildings"/structures/oikodome (G3619) of the entire 2nd temple complex (Matthew 24:1). Indeed, Matthew 24:2 could even have been spoken just to the north and west of the Wailing Wall. For it was spoken right after Jesus had departed from the temple complex (Matthew 24:1). And one of the main temple-complex exits (called Wilson's Arch and bridge by archaeologists) was just to the north of the Wailing Wall and at the same level as the top of the Temple Mount (see the temple-complex map-insert in the December, 2008 issue of National Geographic magazine).

Also, in Matthew 24:2, the "here" can include not just the entire 2nd temple complex, but every structure throughout Jerusalem. For the similar statement in Luke 19:44 applied to the whole city (Luke 19:41-44). Matthew 24:2 and Luke 19:44 could be fulfilled at the very end of the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, right before and at Jesus Christ's Second Coming (Zechariah 14:2-21, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).
 
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