Does the Bible teach works must follow God's grace as a part of our salvation?

discipler7 · Dec 18, 2017

Jason0047 said:
Does the Bible teach works must follow God's grace as a part of our salvation?

Yes.

JOHN.3: =
18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

19 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. 21 But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God.”

JacksBratt · Dec 18, 2017

Jason0047 said:
Does the Bible teach works must follow God's grace as a part of our salvation?

NO it does not.

Good works SHOULD be evident after we are saved. The fruit that is to be evidence of our salvation could be as simple as a once terminally angry and abrasive person changing to being one of more kind and accepting... In some... that is a huge change and would be the fruit that would be apparent to those that knew this person.

We can do NOTHING, I repeat NOTHING to save ourselves. Christ's gift of salvation is totally free and does not have a sticker price of "doing works" attached to it.

He did not say "I will save you IF you do works afterward"

You do not get married by putting on a wedding ring. You can be married and not have one.

A wedding ring is a symbol of the marriage... proof of the marriage.

If you see someone with a wedding ring... it is a sign of their marriage..... but... not 100% of the time.
If you see someone without a wedding ring.. it is a sign that they are not married.... but... not 100% of the time.

Same with works... Someone may do all kinds of charitable works and give like nobody else.... and... still be an atheist with a big heart.

We all know these types... they think that they don't need Christ, they are good people... they are doing it of their own accord.... But.... we know that it is only through Christ that we obtain eternal life by His shed blood...

Should we do works... of course... we all have gifts from God that we should be utilizing in order to be active parts of the body of Christ.

If we are blessed with lots of money... this could be donations... this may, then, be done anonymously and nobody would know.

In general, as far as my opinion goes... you should be able to tell if someone is a Christian, by their life and attitude toward things in their lives.

I do not want to be the person who, upon someone else finding out that I am a Christian... they say "OH, I never expected that He was a Christian"...how embarrassing.

It should be like a beacon, a light, shining for all to see so that others go "HEY, I want what they have".

Yarddog · Dec 18, 2017

Jason0047 said:
Does the Bible teach works must follow God's grace as a part of our salvation?

Yes. This is true (according to the Bible); For we see clearly that holiness (Ephesians 5:25-27) and works (Titus 2:14) is a natural by-product of God's grace. Paul was talking about the works of the Law of Moses (because he referred to circumcision many times - Romans 3:1, Romans 4:9-12, Galatians 5:2), and not the works of Faith (1 Thessalonians 1:3) (2 Thessalonians 1:11). Paul was not condemning all forms of works or works as a part of the salvation process (after God's grace), but he was condemning "Works Alone Salvationism" without God's grace. This is why Paul says if it is by works it is no more grace. Surely if salvation was exclusively alone by works, we would all be doomed. For all men have sinned and they need a Savior to wipe out their past record of sin. We have to understand that Paul was talking to the Jews who rejected their Messiah when he said grace is no more grace if it is of works (Romans 11:6 cf. Romans 11:1). The Jews rejected God's grace and their Messiah. One of the points that Jesus made with the Parable of the Tax Collector and the Pharisee is that he was condemning the Pharisee's false religion of trying to be saved by works alone without God's grace because the Pharisee did not cry out unto God to have mercy on his own life. The Pharisee was also not concerned in helping the Tax Collector in overcoming his sin, either. He was just seeking to condemn the poor guy. However, what you will not find in the Bible is a verse saying that God's grace + obedience to Him is not a part of His salvation. In fact, the very Fall of Adam and Eve was an act of disobedience. In fact, the first lie in the Garden by Satan to Eve was, "Ye shall not surely die." (Genesis 3:4). This same lie is being pushed today. You can disobey God's laws and not die. So obedience (works and holiness) plays a part in our salvation after we repent and believe in Jesus Christ to be saved (i.e. God's grace).

For me, I try to simplify things as much as possible. I take myself back to Abraham who had no Mosaic Law. He simply followed what God's Spirit led him to do.

In righteousness, God's rest, we find a state of grace. We have works to do but not works that we may try to do to be holy. Instead, we allow God's Spirit to live and guide us from within so that the works are God's.

Bible Highlighter · Dec 18, 2017

A_Thinker said:
Trusting in the LOVE and GRACE that Jesus brings, while allowing His Spirit to motivate you to the GOOD WORKS that God desires from you.

He said this to a works-oriented Jew prior to His sacrifice for sin ...

Matthew 19

16 Now behold, one came and said to Him, “Good Teacher, WHAT GOOD THING SHALL I DO that I may have eternal life?”

17 So He said to him, “Why do you call Me good? NO ONE IS GOOD, that is, GOD. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.”

18 He said to Him, “Which ones?”

Jesus said, “‘You shall not murder,’ ‘You shall not commit adultery,’ ‘You shall not steal,’ ‘You shall not bear false witness,’ 19 ‘Honor your father and yourmother,’ and, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ ”

20 The young man said to Him, “All these things I have kept from my youth.What do I still lack?”

21 Jesus said to him, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell what you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me.”

22 But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful, for he had great possessions.

We see that the young man clearly asked "What good thing shall I do ?" ... to enter heaven.

And we see Jesus' response that "Noone is Good, but God". This would indicate to me that noone earns heaven by being Good, ... because only God is Good.

And, finally, we see the results of such a works-oriented approach to salvation ... "The young man went away sorrowfully," ... because he could not do ... what Jesus asked of him (in order to be perfect).

Focusing on keeping God’s Laws is not in conflict with God's grace and faith. Please see Ephesians 5:25-27, Titus 2:14, and James 2:18.

As for Matthew 19: Well, you are reading the Scriptures here with a wrong bias or to serve man's selfish nature and you are ignoring the part of the Scriptures that say to keep the commandments so as to enter into life. When Jesus said there is none good but God, He was not saying that we treat His grace as a license to sin even a little. On the contrary, He was hinting at the teaching that He can do the good work through us (See my final paragraph within this post). Anyways, in the end of Matthew 19, the conclusion is forsaking things as a part of everlasting life and it is not about a sin and still be saved gospel. That would be your imagination working over time in seeing a doctrine that is not there in Matthew 19. Unless of course you see a verse that you can show to me in Matthew 19 that says otherwise.

As for Jesus's statement "there is none good but one, that is, God":
Well, who ultimately does the "good work" in a believer's life?

Is it God?
Or is it the believer?

Well, Scripture tells us that God (Christ) is the One who ultimately does the work within a believer.

Philippians 1:6
Philippians 1:11
Philippians 2:13
Philippians 4:13
1 Corinthians 15:10
Hebrews 12:1-2
Hebrews 13:21
Isaiah 26:12
1 John 4:12
Galatians 5:22-24 (cf. Matthew 7:16-18, Matthew 19:17)
John 15:5
Ezekiel 36:26-27

For that is why the 24 elders cast their crowns down before Jesus (Revelation 4:10). For the crowns they received for their good work was all the result of Christ working in them.

Yeah, but doesn't a believer do the work, too? Now, yes, it is true; A believer is created unto Christ Jesus for good works (Ephesians 2:10); And a believer is indeed held accountable by their "good works" here upon this Earth at a Judgment. But we must also realize that true believers are not ultimately doing these "good works" alone or of their own power, though. For in 1 Corinthians 15:10 Paul said that he labored more than all of his brethren, yet he said it was not him that labored but it was the grace of God that was within him. So true believer's are just choosing to allow God's "good work" to flow within them or not.

Bible Highlighter · Dec 18, 2017

JacksBratt said:
NO it does not.

Good works SHOULD be evident after we are saved. The fruit that is to be evidence of our salvation could be as simple as a once terminally angry and abrasive person changing to being one of more kind and accepting... In some... that is a huge change and would be the fruit that would be apparent to those that knew this person.

We can do NOTHING, I repeat NOTHING to save ourselves. Christ's gift of salvation is totally free and does not have a sticker price of "doing works" attached to it.

He did not say "I will save you IF you do works afterward"

You do not get married by putting on a wedding ring. You can be married and not have one.

A wedding ring is a symbol of the marriage... proof of the marriage.

If you see someone with a wedding ring... it is a sign of their marriage..... but... not 100% of the time.
If you see someone without a wedding ring.. it is a sign that they are not married.... but... not 100% of the time.

Same with works... Someone may do all kinds of charitable works and give like nobody else.... and... still be an atheist with a big heart.

We all know these types... they think that they don't need Christ, they are good people... they are doing it of their own accord.... But.... we know that it is only through Christ that we obtain eternal life by His shed blood...

Should we do works... of course... we all have gifts from God that we should be utilizing in order to be active parts of the body of Christ.

If we are blessed with lots of money... this could be donations... this may, then, be done anonymously and nobody would know.

In general, as far as my opinion goes... you should be able to tell if someone is a Christian, by their life and attitude toward things in their lives.

I do not want to be the person who, upon someone else finding out that I am a Christian... they say "OH, I never expected that He was a Christian"...how embarrassing.

It should be like a beacon, a light, shining for all to see so that others go "HEY, I want what they have".

Again, not true. A person does not see just a person based on one event in their life. They go by how they generally behave and treat others. Also, the Scriptures do teach that a believer can overcome sin. Check out this thread here for a large list.

The Scriptures Teaching on Sinless Perfection.

Bible Highlighter · Dec 18, 2017

SBC said:
No.
A mans Salvation Is A Gift From God To A Man WHO has overcome His Disbelief In God, AND confessed His Belief, from his heart, To God.

ONCE A Man IS Saved....He Is Prepared to DO Works that Glorifies Gods Name.

But what If the man doesn't?

Does that man Lose his Salvation?

No.

And what If that man Does Do Works that Glorifies Gods Name?

Well then, as Scripture teaches, that man Shall receive heavenly rewards From God.

And the man who does No Works To Glorify Gods Name?

Well then, he shall be standing among the Saved observing others receiving THEIR heavenly rewards, while he receives none....
Well not "none". But rather Less.

More precisely... All men that are Saved receive the reward of the Crown of Life, because confessing belief in God to God,
Is accounted as a righteous act and worthy for that man to receive the reward of the Crown of Life.

And some men will receive additional crowns,
While others will not.

God Bless
SBC

I can receive a car as a gift, that does not mean my gift cannot be taken away. For if I run lights and or drink and drive, the car can be destroyed or taken away or not serve me in any way so as to drive it.

Bible Highlighter · Dec 18, 2017

Cat Loaf You said:
Works salvation is heresy , if you have anything than Jesus + nothing to be saved you are preaching another gospel and no you don't need to "keep your salvation " it's like saying thanks Christ that you died for me but your not good enought to forgive me for that last party when i drank too much beer.

People who put faith in thier works put no faith in God , moreover if you try to keep your salvation you have two saviors yourself and God .

"Turning God's grace into a license to sin" or "Willful Sin Salvationism" is heresy.
Would not God have to agree with your plan of salvation that says you can sin and still be saved?
Can God agree with sin?
Come on now.
Think.

Phil 1:21 · Dec 18, 2017

JacksBratt said:
NO it does not.

Good works SHOULD be evident after we are saved. The fruit that is to be evidence of our salvation could be as simple as a once terminally angry and abrasive person changing to being one of more kind and accepting... In some... that is a huge change and would be the fruit that would be apparent to those that knew this person.

We can do NOTHING, I repeat NOTHING to save ourselves. Christ's gift of salvation is totally free and does not have a sticker price of "doing works" attached to it.

He did not say "I will save you IF you do works afterward"

You do not get married by putting on a wedding ring. You can be married and not have one.

A wedding ring is a symbol of the marriage... proof of the marriage.

If you see someone with a wedding ring... it is a sign of their marriage..... but... not 100% of the time.
If you see someone without a wedding ring.. it is a sign that they are not married.... but... not 100% of the time.

Same with works... Someone may do all kinds of charitable works and give like nobody else.... and... still be an atheist with a big heart.

We all know these types... they think that they don't need Christ, they are good people... they are doing it of their own accord.... But.... we know that it is only through Christ that we obtain eternal life by His shed blood...

Should we do works... of course... we all have gifts from God that we should be utilizing in order to be active parts of the body of Christ.

If we are blessed with lots of money... this could be donations... this may, then, be done anonymously and nobody would know.

In general, as far as my opinion goes... you should be able to tell if someone is a Christian, by their life and attitude toward things in their lives.

I do not want to be the person who, upon someone else finding out that I am a Christian... they say "OH, I never expected that He was a Christian"...how embarrassing.

It should be like a beacon, a light, shining for all to see so that others go "HEY, I want what they have".

This should be a sticky at the top of every similar thread. Excellent explanation!

Bible Highlighter · Dec 18, 2017

discipler7 said:
.
Yes.

Notice that before the 1st Advent of Jesus Christ to earth at 000BC, the Jews had to have faith in God's Law or Moses Law and keep the Law, in order to be saved from hell, as per LUKE.16:19-31. How come.? = 1PETER.3:19 & 4:6 says that these faithful Jews were actually saved when Jesus Christ broke into the gates of hell and preached to gospel to them.(cf; MATT.17:3 & 27:52)
... So, in effect, these Jews were saved from hell by having faith in God's Law and in God's Son, Jesus.

After the 1st Advent of Jesus Christ to earth at 000BC, the above requirements for salvation remained, ie new Jewish Christians like the 12 apostles were required to continue to keep Moses Law, as many as possible, because it was not a burden to them.
... But for new Gentile Christians, there were only required to keep laws that were not a burden, starting with the 4 easy laws of ACTS.15:24-29. So, in effect, Gentiles were saved from hell by having faith in God's Son, Jesus and in the non-burdensome parts of God's Law.

Faith does not just focus on Jesus Christ. The Law/commandments/Word of God also requires faith.

MATTHEW.7:21-23, 1CORINTHIANS.6:9-11, GALATIANS.5:19-21, HEBREWS.11 and REVELATION.22:12-15 attest to this fact.

P S - The confusion about Grace vs Law was caused by some Jewish Christians/Judaizers, led by James the Just, requiring new Gentile Christians to also keep Moses Law - GALATIANS.2:9-14.
... Today, the Jews still falsely believe that they will be saved from hell when they die by just having faith in God's Law and keeping the Law. Having rejected Jesus as their Messiah/Christ, the Jews are still waiting for the 1st Advent of Christ/Messiah to earth.

Happy Birthday.
BTW ~ Interesting tid bit of information there about the Jews here.

May God bless you.

JacksBratt · Dec 18, 2017

Jason0047 said:
Again, not true. A person does not see just a person based on one event in their life. They go by how they generally behave and treat others. Also, the Scriptures do teach that a believer can overcome sin. Check out this thread here for a large list.

The Scriptures Teaching on Sinless Perfection.

You may be correct in stating "a Person" doesn't see based on one event..

Thing is..........it is not up to "a person" it's up to Christ.

You and I have no say or right to say whether a person is saved or not... based on their actions or how they generally treat others....

This has absolutely nothing to do with their salvation.

It is their heart.... Only Christ knows their heart.

Two people.. one running around like a chicken with it's head cut off... helping, serving, giving. The other struggling to say a kind word, help at all, even look after their family.

The first may not even be saved and the second could stand beside you singing praises to our Lord in Paradise.. You are not the judge and only Christ knows who has salvation.

The first could be like the people Christ was talking about who were clean and polished on the outside (what all other SEE) while on the inside they were disgusting.

Matthew 23:26-28New International Version (NIV)
26 Blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and dish, and then the outside also will be clean.

27 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of the bones of the dead and everything unclean. 28 In the same way, on the outside you appear to people as righteous but on the inside you are full of hypocrisy and wickedness.

Salvation is a free gift. Nothing you can do is applicable, necessary or worth anything as far as your salvation is concerned.

SBC · Dec 18, 2017

Jason0047 said:
I can receive a car as a gift, that does not mean my gift cannot be taken away. For if I run lights and or drink and drive, the car can be destroyed or taken away or not serve me in any way so as to drive it.

That that IS TRUE and WHY earthly Things and Gifts and Rewards Are NOT the cats meow or anything to be all concerned about.

Because Gods Gift of Salvation IS permanent, ONCE received, you can Never have IT departed From you.

God Bless
SBC

A_Thinker · Dec 18, 2017

Jason0047 said:
I can receive a car as a gift, that does not mean my gift cannot be taken away. For if I run lights and or drink and drive, the car can be destroyed or taken away or not serve me in any way so as to drive it.

God nowhere speaks of taking back His gift of salvation. In fact, He says that He won't take it back (i.e. cast you out) ...

John 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

The issue of "wrecking" one's faith is more debateable. I wouldn't insist that such is impossible ...

JIMINZ · Dec 18, 2017

Blood Bought 1953 said:
Seventy.....close but no cigar. Here’s why. Once we find out the starting point, then what? Only Jesus is perfect and since He knows that we can’t be perfect , what is the standard? 51% perfect ,75% perfect or gulp,99% perfect..again I plead....What must we do?

.
Not directed at you personally, but just an answer to your very good question.
The answer is.

Be "IN" Christ.

Bible Highlighter · Dec 18, 2017

A_Thinker said:
God nowhere speaks of taking back His gift of salvation. In fact, He says that He won't take it back (i.e. cast you out) ...

John 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

The issue of "wrecking" one's faith is more debateable. I wouldn't insist that such is impossible ...

When you read John 6:37, you also have to read John 6:66 where the many disciples left him. Jesus did not go chasing after them. They cast themselves out by choosing to stop in following Jesus. Also, the believer in Matthew 7:23 was surely cast out for Jesus told them to depart from Him because they worked iniquity (sin).

JIMINZ · Dec 18, 2017

SeventyOne said:
I'm hoping he can fill us in. He's making all the claims. I just want to see the scriptures from where these claims originate. I certianly don't want to be told that I started my good works 3 hours too late and only achieved 94% perfection rather than the required 95%.

.
You know what they say, "The law is the Law" that is what Jason is pushing.

JIMINZ · Dec 18, 2017

Blood Bought 1953 said:
No. James was referring to New Covenant Law and not Old Covenant Law. The Perfect Law of Liberty is a New Covenant Law because the Old Law did not provide any liberty like the New Covenant does today. Loving your neighbor is the Royal Law and the Perfect Law of Liberty. For loving your neighbor is the same thing as the keeping of the Moral Law (like do not murder, do not steal, do not covet, etc.) (See Romans 13:8

Wow.....sounds waaaaay too complicated for me.Who knew Christianity would be this hard?

.
JASON DID.

Bible Highlighter · Dec 18, 2017

JacksBratt said:
You may be correct in stating "a Person" doesn't see based on one event..

Thing is..........it is not up to "a person" it's up to Christ.

You and I have no say or right to say whether a person is saved or not... based on their actions or how they generally treat others....

This has absolutely nothing to do with their salvation.

It is their heart.... Only Christ knows their heart.

Two people.. one running around like a chicken with it's head cut off... helping, serving, giving. The other struggling to say a kind word, help at all, even look after their family.

The first may not even be saved and the second could stand beside you singing praises to our Lord in Paradise.. You are not the judge and only Christ knows who has salvation.

The first could be like the people Christ was talking about who were clean and polished on the outside (what all other SEE) while on the inside they were disgusting.

Matthew 23:26-28New International Version (NIV)
26 Blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and dish, and then the outside also will be clean.

27 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of the bones of the dead and everything unclean. 28 In the same way, on the outside you appear to people as righteous but on the inside you are full of hypocrisy and wickedness.

Salvation is a free gift. Nothing you can do is applicable, necessary or worth anything as far as your salvation is concerned.

Actually we can judge by the Word of God (See 2 Timothy 3:16-17).

Also, Paul said this,

11 "But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.
12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?
13 But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person." (1 Corinthians 5:11-13).

Furthermore, Matthew 23:26-27 does not help you but it actually works against what you believe. Jesus judged the ACTIONS of the Pharisees. That was the problem. Jesus said in Matthew 23:23 (cf. Luke 11:42) that they ignored the weightier matters of the Law like justice, faith, mercy, and love. They tithed. But Jesus said he would have preferred that they loved, had faith, had mercy, etc. instead of tithing. Anyways, when Jesus said you need to clean the inside of the cup, He was talking about how we need to repent of our sins to Jesus whereby we will then turn from our evil and wicked ways. Jesus can clean the inside of the cup of our hearts whereby we will not want to justify sin and evil.

JIMINZ · Dec 18, 2017

Jason0047 said:
I can receive a car as a gift, that does not mean my gift cannot be taken away. For if I run lights and or drink and drive, the car can be destroyed or taken away or not serve me in any way so as to drive it.

.
Can you provide Scripture for that analogy?

SeventyOne · Dec 18, 2017

JIMINZ said:
.
What kind of multiple paths are you referring to?
Sounds like your saying works are one way.

Multiple paths as in faith-only and faith + works.

To address your other point, works are one way on this subject, one way straight to hell.

EastCoastRemnant · Dec 18, 2017

pilgrimage said:
Works are performed in obedience within the heart according to the law of the spirit but not according to the law of the letter.

I would disagree because even the letter is to be obeyed... we are only ever in danger of sinning if we go contrary to the letter and the spirit. As an example, the letter of the law says, do not murder... this is something to be heeded, not out of fear but out of love for our neighbour. The spirit of that law would tell us that anger towards our neighbour is equally to be avoided because in it we are condemned by the same letter.

Does the Bible teach works must follow God's grace as a part of our salvation?

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