Millennial Considerations

Stephen Mendes said:

I wish everybody 'the best' whether Amil or Premil ..... doubtless you have your reasons and are passionate about it ... nobody can fault you for that ..... it was foolish of me to even entertain the notion that I could convert anybody to anything..... from now on I will take a more humble attitude in such matters.

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Hi Stephen - well if the exercise has made you humbler, it was well worth the effort then .
Amil, Bmil, Cmil, Premil, Nilmil, grist for our mills, Proverbs 25:2.
Prophecy and prophecies are for the most part always partial. Only at their complete fulfillment do we (will we) see and understand completely. Maybe we overreach ourselves in thinking that the primary purpose of prophesy is to tell us exactly what is going to happen when, in Our Father's vast scheme of salvation. The main purpose of prophesy, as with all else, is to glorify God. 1 Corinthians 13:9-12.
I wonder how many involved in this thread have ever thought that maybe there are possibilities of neither/nor or both/and. As with Calvinism/Arminianism beware of signing up to false dichotomies.
I hold pre-millennium views but I hold them lightly and hesitantly. Any one who is certain about how the book of Revelation is to be understood in all it's workings out is certain in the end to be embarrassed.
Go well
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vinsight4u said:

At the 7th trumpet sounding time, only the just are judged and rewarded.

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That is not in the text.

Rev 11:18 The nations raged, but your wrath came, and the time for the dead to be judged, and for rewarding your servants, the prophets and saints, and those who fear your name, both small and great, and for destroying the destroyers of the earth." (ESV)


What does the text say?

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Truth7t7 said:

When Jesus Christ returns the final judgment, eternal kingdom takes place. Matthew 25:31-46

There is no 1000 year millennium in scripture where Jesus hangs out on earth with mortal humans. Jesus warned the believer against this teaching Matthew 24:23-27

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Hi Truth,

You can rest assured I certainly do NOT believe that the Lord will be `hanging out` with folks down on this earth. He is, as we both know (PTL) the King of all Kings, the Lord of all Lords, the Sovereign Ruler of God`s great kingdom which extends to all spheres that He made. So for that one bro.

Marilyn.

Marilyn C said:

Hi Truth,

You can rest assured I certainly do NOT believe that the Lord will be `hanging out` with folks down on this earth. He is, as we both know (PTL) the King of all Kings, the Lord of all Lords, the Sovereign Ruler of God`s great kingdom which extends to all spheres that He made. So for that one bro.

Marilyn.

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I agree 100%, Jesus isnt gonna hang out with mortal humans on this earth.

Jesus is gonna hang out in the Eternal Kingdom, with the eternal righteous saints in glorified tangible bodies, seen in Isaiah 11, Isaiah 65, Isaiah 66, Ezekiel 47, Revelation 21, Revelation 22

Original Happy Camper said:

It does not say they are both resurrected at the same time.

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What did Jesus say?


Joh 5:27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.

Joh 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Joh 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.

He said "all".

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BABerean2 said:

Based on the fact that the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34 is found fulfilled by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13, and is specifically applied to the Church in Hebrews 12:22-24, and 2 Corinthians 3:6-8, who do you think God is going to restore the kingdom to?


On the Day of Pentecost Peter addressed the crowd as "all the house of Israel" in Acts 2:36.
Who was Peter talking to?

In the letter written by James he addressed it to "the twelve tribes".
Who was James talking to?

The fact of the matter is that when the Church began almost all of its members were Israelites.
Paul confirms this in Romans 11:1.
Paul still considered himself an Israelite after his conversion.
The Olive Tree of Romans 11 is a symbol of the New Covenant Church made up of Israelites and Gentiles grafted together into one tree.
Paul provides no plan B, outside of the Olive Tree in the passage.

The Two Peoples of God doctrine falls apart once a person comes to understand the New Covenant of Christ.

However, some of us cannot let go of the doctrine brought to America by John Nelson Darby.

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Hi BABerean,

Having to bring in a negative remark about another person (Darby) just detracts from the truth. We can all bring in so & so, who is a human with faults & errors of doctrine. Let truth stand on its own!!!

So to answer your many questions. Hope you were interested to hear my answers.

1. The kingdom/rule on earth was always promised to an earthly nation called Israel. Those who survive the great trib, and have their eyes opened to their Messiah will go into the millennium and rule the nations of the world under Christ. (who will be far above all).

2. Peter was talking to the people of Israel who had come for the Feast of Pentecost. Of course we can read what he says and there are truths eternal truths there - Christ is both Lord and Christ.

3. Yes James addressed the 12 tribes which were scattered abroad. That is precisely who he was talking to. He knew very well the difference between a Gentile and a person born of Israel.

4. Yes all things are brought together in Christ. However....there are different realms of rulership for the different groups. It is not all about the earth. God`s kingdom/rule extends throughout the universe and well beyond into the angelic heights. And God, through His precious beloved Son desires that man, yes man would rule with Him in all those areas.

Lift your vision higher, bro. Marilyn.

seventysevens said:

Wrong,
Your dilemma is that when you place scripture out of order or call future events that have not yet happened a history lesson you will always end up with a false interpretation ,angels who have chosen to leave their abode is not relevant to the topic

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Rev 12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

When was Christ caught up unto God?

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Marilyn C said:

Hi BABerean,

Having to bring in a negative remark about another person (Darby) just detracts from the truth. We can all bring in so & so, who is a human with faults & errors of doctrine. Let truth stand on its own!!!

So to answer your many questions. Hope you were interested to hear my answers.

1. The kingdom/rule on earth was always promised to an earthly nation called Israel. Those who survive the great trib, and have their eyes opened to their Messiah will go into the millennium and rule the nations of the world under Christ. (who will be far above all).

2. Peter was talking to the people of Israel who had come for the Feast of Pentecost. Of course we can read what he says and there are truths eternal truths there - Christ is both Lord and Christ.

3. Yes James addressed the 12 tribes which were scattered abroad. That is precisely who he was talking to. He knew very well the difference between a Gentile and a person born of Israel.

4. Yes all things are brought together in Christ. However....there are different realms of rulership for the different groups. It is not all about the earth. God`s kingdom/rule extends throughout the universe and well beyond into the angelic heights. And God, through His precious beloved Son desires that man, yes man would rule with Him in all those areas.

Lift your vision higher, bro. Marilyn.

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There will be no future 1000 year earthly kingdom where ethnic Jews will return to rule in a earthly temple blessed by God.

Matthew 25:31-46 clearly teaches at the return of Jesus Christ, the final judgment takes place, as the wicked are judged to the eternal lake of fire verse 41, and the righteous obtain eternal life verse 46, and enter the eternal kingdom verse 34

Very Simple, Eternity Starts At The Return Of Jesus, Not A False Earthly Kingdom.

James wrote to the 12 tribes of "Israel The Church" he was well aware that the Church inherited the covenants, promises, and blessings.

Israel The Church, Children Of The Promised Seed, Romans 9:6-8

BABerean2 said:

He said "all".

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Yes he did but it does not say that they all hear it at the same time.

BABerean2 said:

He said "all".

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explain this verse in light of your understanding
Revelation 20:5
But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the firstresurrection.

Jesus IS God , Jesus is The Almighty the First and the Last , The Alpha and the Omega
Jesus Never lost His Authority because Jesus IS God
The moment that Jesus was born as a baby He was 100% God and 100% human

Jesus became a man for the explicit purpose , for one and only one purpose and that purpose was to be the sacrificial lamb who would shed His innocent blood to pay for the sins of all mankind because that is the Only way that His creation of humankind can be saved to spend all of eternity with the Creator and explain His reason to the people so they might be saved .

There are at least 300 major prophecies in the OT about Jesus the Messiah that would come and die on the cross , how he would live , his ministry and how he would die
To say that Jesus ever lost His Authority is 100% false.
To say that Jesus gained His Authority because satan lost his is 100% false , any authority that satan has ever had was given to him by Jesus

Jesus Reign will Never end if you understand that Jesus , The Father and the Holy Spirit are ONE
the 1000 Millennium reign is named such because that is how long satan is imprisoned unable to deceive any human people , after the 1000 years are over satan is allowed to deceive who he can then he is cast into the lake of fire that was created specifically for him and the angels who chose to leave their first abode and follow satan as leader
All of these things are basic doctrine of how God would redeem mankind since the fall of Adam in the Garden

Some folks will acknowledge and accept that Jesus died and rose from the dead and give them eternal life , they will acknowledge that Jesus healed the blind , the deaf , those who could not walk , Jesus brought back to life people who were dead , but yet have such a carnal mindset that they can't conceive that Jesus would allow people who are human to live under his reign nor can they conceive that Jesus will harpazo people out of the worst most horrendous plagued filled time the earth will ever see because of the carnal mindset that all of Gods people MUST suffer through it - which is of the same mindset that some people have who believe that work has to be hard , that it has to be strenuous that it has to be difficult
When people follow the human carnal mindset they will not see what God has planned for them

Isa2:3
And many peoples will come and say, "Come, let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, To the house of the God of Jacob; That He may teach us concerning His ways And that we may walk in His paths." For the law will go forth from Zion And the word of the LORD from Jerusalem

Isa56
And the dogs are greedy, they are not satisfied And they are shepherds who have no understanding; They have all turned to their own way, Each one to his unjust gain, to the last one.

Isa46
5 To whom will ye liken me, and make me equal, and compare me, that we may be like?

9 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,


10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:


11 Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it.

Truth7t7 said:

There will be no future 1000 year earthly kingdom where ethnic Jews will return to rule in a earthly temple blessed by God.

Matthew 25:31-46 clearly teaches at the return of Jesus Christ, the final judgment takes place, as the wicked are judged to the eternal lake of fire verse 41, and the righteous obtain eternal life verse 46, and enter the eternal kingdom verse 34

Very Simple, Eternity Starts At The Return Of Jesus, Not A False Earthly Kingdom.

James wrote to the 12 tribes of "Israel The Church" he was well aware that the Church inherited the covenants, promises, and blessings.

Israel The Church, Children Of The Promised Seed, Romans 9:6-8

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Hi Truth,

So....those people in matt. 25 are judged on if the - fed, clothed, gave water to, visited Christ`s brethren in prison, and is that the gospel you know?

Marilyn.

Original Happy CamperHour"st: 72109096 said:

Yes he did but it does not say that they all hear it at the same time.

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John 5:28-29 clearly states "Hour" and "All" in the graves shall hear his voice and come forth

Are you going to interpret "Hour" as some long drawn out period of time?

Hey Jesus I didnt hear your voice, can you come back in a thousand years and try again?

Marilyn C said:

Hi Truth,

So....those people in matt. 25 are judged on if the - fed, clothed, gave water to, visited Christ`s brethren in prison, and is that the gospel you know?

Marilyn.

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You won't rationalize away the clear teaching of scripture.

Matthew 25:31-46 is the final judgment, eternal life, eternal kingdom as clearly explained.

Verse 31-32 Jesus returns, the nations are gathered before the throne for judgment.

Verse 34 The eternal kingdom is presented to the righteous.

Verse 42 The wicked are judged to the eternal lake of fire.

Verse 46 The righteous obtain eternal life, and enter the eternal kingdom in verse 34

You can't change the basic, simple, truth presented.

You have a bias in desperately trying to keep your 1000 year earthly kingdom alive, that isn't found in scripture.

Truth7t7 said:

You have a bias in desperately trying to keep your 1000 year earthly kingdom alive, that isn't found in scripture.

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Scripture Clearly states vividly that people who were dead , came to life and reigned with Christ for 1000 years

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Christ is not reigning over dead people , only the living and those people who were dead - now living and reigning with Christ

Interesting review here.

Stephen Mendes said:

LastSeven,

I thank you for the detailed point by point breakdown.

But there is not a chance I will ever convert to Amil.... none.

For starters, I understand that Jesus has existed since the beginning (John 1:1) as part of the Godhead (all things were created by Him and without Him was nothing made that was made)...... the idea that Satan lost His authority when Jesus gained His (your point 3) is to my mind incorrect ..... Satan is a created being, Jesus Christ is the creator..... there is no comparison between the two..... Jesus has always had all authority and what little authority Satan may have is by permission of God.

Point 4.... we currently reign with Jesus .... I have a problem with that too...... we have no power whatsoever.... it is not our ability or power that defeats the enemy in spiritual war, but rather our utter dependence on God and the finished work of Christ.... we will reign with Christ in the future but certainly not at the present time.

The last point.... When Jesus returns His reign ends.... is an error as far as I am concerned ..... Jesus reigns forever and ever.....

Finally I also cannot accept that Jesus does not need to reign on a physical earth...... He was humiliated on a physical earth and He must also reign on a physical earth....

Anyway it was good of you to break it down for me....

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Jesus will reign on earth?

Its called the New Heaven, Earth, Jerusalem Revelation 21:1-5

Jesus isnt gonna hang out on this earth with mortal humans, he warned the believer against this teaching in Matthew 24:23-27

When Jesus Returns The Final Judgment, Eternal Life, Eternal Kingdom Takes Place.

Matthew 25:31-46

Verses 31-32 Jesus returns with the angels, the nations are gathered for judgment.

Verse 34 The eternal kingdom is presented to the righteous.

Verse 41 The wicked are judged to the eternal lake of fire.

Verse 46 The righteous obtain eternal life, and enter the eternal kingdom in verse 34

Very Simple, Eternity Begins At The Return Of Jesus Christ.

There will be no earthly 1000 year kingdom as clearly taught by my Lord, Jesus Christ.