Can a word from God justify cruelty?

GingerBeer · Dec 17, 2017

During the reformation Protestant and Catholic both claimed God for their side and both persecuted Anabaptists and tortured them as well as each other. Yet people today treat the leaders of the reformation and the leaders of the Catholic Church as honoured heroes of the faith. How can that be? Is a word from God justification for doing evil and perpetrating cruelty?

And today, though in the west no one appears to systematically approve torture of religious opponents, we have many examples of verbal persecutions against perceived enemies of "the faith" whatever that "faith" may be. Is this behaviour just is it a right and proper response to a word from God?

Cat Loaf You · Dec 17, 2017

That's what commandment of not taking the name of LORD in vain is all about . It's not about saying bad words but about doing something bad in the name of LORD , like two armies fighting each other and both proclaiming that they do it for LORD ...

Tom 1 · Dec 17, 2017

GingerBeer said:
During the reformation Protestant and Catholic both claimed God for their side and both persecuted Anabaptists and tortured them as well as each other. Yet people today treat the leaders of the reformation and the leaders of the Catholic Church as honoured heroes of the faith. How can that be? Is a word from God justification for doing evil and perpetrating cruelty?

And today, though in the west no one appears to systematically approve torture of religious opponents, we have many examples of verbal persecutions against perceived enemies of "the faith" whatever that "faith" may be. Is this behaviour just is it a right and proper response to a word from God?

People are pretty crazy, particularly when they are convinced that they are right based on limited information (i.e the contents of any one person’s brain) and so the other person must be wrong. Internal conviction of ‘rightness’ through lack of self awareness and questioning one’s own ability to see past one’s own nose are the root of all kinds of evil.

GingerBeer · Dec 17, 2017

Cat Loaf You said:
That's what commandment of not taking the name of LORD in vain is all about . It's not about saying bad words but about doing something bad in the name of LORD , like two armies fighting each other and both proclaiming that they do it for LORD ...

Armies fighting one another in the "name of the Lord" is very common. I agree that it does look like a breach of the commandment not to use God's name in a worthless way.

GingerBeer · Dec 17, 2017

Tom Farebrother said:
People are pretty crazy, particularly when they are convinced that they are right based on limited information (i.e the contents of any one person’s brain) and so the other person must be wrong. Internal conviction of ‘rightness’ through lack of self awareness and questioning one’s own ability to see past one’s own nose are the root of all kinds of evil.

Yes, that is all true enough. Yet people who claim to be following Jesus Christ have done very cruel things in God's name. How can that be accounted for if they are not insane and not profoundly ignorant.

Tom 1 · Dec 17, 2017

GingerBeer said:
Yes, that is all true enough. Yet people who claim to be following Jesus Christ have done very cruel things in God's name. How can that be accounted for if they are not insane and not profoundly ignorant.

Seemingly rational explanations based on contorted theology are one example, e.g religious leaders at the time proclaiming that crusaders were free of sin if they killed their Muslim enemies ‘in a spirit of love’

GingerBeer · Dec 17, 2017

Tom Farebrother said:
Seemingly rational explanations based on contorted theology are one example, e.g religious leaders at the time proclaiming that crusaders were free of sin if they killed their Muslim enemies ‘in a spirit of love’

True, and the same sentiments no doubt were voiced about Catholics killed in the defense of Protestant freedoms. But even today cruelty is evident in words and actions within the law.

FireDragon76 · Dec 17, 2017

What about when the followers of Elijah hunted down the priests of Baal? I mean it's not like the Bible itself doesn't have violence in the name of religion.

I don't demand our reformers be squeaky-clean, I guess. They were products of their times, to a certain extent.

Tom 1 · Dec 17, 2017

GingerBeer said:
True, and the same sentiments no doubt were voiced about Catholics killed in the defense of Protestant freedoms. But even today cruelty is evident in words and actions within the law.

I tend to think it comes out of frustrations associated with thinking along the lines of ‘I’m obviously right so why don’t you just agree with me’ or ‘that those people must be inherently wicked as they don’t agree with us’ etc, all of which have their natural conclusions in force if taken too far. Defence of privilege and position as authorities on one thing or another may come into it also.

GingerBeer · Dec 17, 2017

FireDragon76 said:
What about when the followers of Elijah hunted down the priests of Baal? I mean it's not like the Bible itself doesn't have violence in the name of religion.

I don't demand our reformers be squeaky-clean, I guess. They were products of their times, to a certain extent.

I ask why we do not demand that our "heroes of the faith" be at least as clean as us? I agree that asking perfection is unrealistic but is it unrealistic to ask that they not be murderous men (and women) who have avoided cruel and wicked actions against other people? I do not think it is. I do not count genocidal killers as good nor is a serial killer good nor a warrior who aggressively attacks the alleged enemy even when it is a time of peace. Such people are not worthy of praise.

GingerBeer · Dec 17, 2017

Tom Farebrother said:
I tend to think it comes out of frustrations associated with thinking along the lines of ‘I’m obviously right so why don’t you just agree with me’ or ‘that those people must be inherently wicked as they don’t agree with us’ etc, all of which have their natural conclusions in force if taken too far. Defence of privilege and position as authorities on one thing or another may come into it also.

I agree and I also think that when a person thinks like that they show themselves to be dangerous.

FireDragon76 · Dec 17, 2017

"As clean as us"? What makes you think we consider ourselves clean?

GingerBeer · Dec 17, 2017

FireDragon76 said:
"As clean as us"? What makes you think we consider ourselves clean?

I don't consider Christians as clean but Jesus did say to to the desciples "Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you." Joh 15:3 KJV So I am happy to use the word "clean" as describing a faithful Christian like the apostles of Christ. They didn't participate in nor encourage any wars or serial killings or torture and so forth.

fhansen · Dec 17, 2017

Sometimes just speaking the truth can feel like persecution to someone taking an opposing position. And I'm curious as to which leaders, specifically, became heroes of the faith?

FireDragon76 · Dec 17, 2017

We don't have Luther as a larger than life figure that could do no wrong, that's more what people outside our tradition do to him. We are grateful to him for illuminating the Gospel of grace and his theological teachings, but that doesn't mean we consider him impeccable.

1213 · Dec 17, 2017

GingerBeer said:
...Is a word from God justification for doing evil and perpetrating cruelty?

And today, though in the west no one appears to systematically approve torture of religious opponents, we have many examples of verbal persecutions against perceived enemies of "the faith" whatever that "faith" may be. Is this behaviour just is it a right and proper response to a word from God?

I don’t think it is just or right, because:

But I tell you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who mistreat you and persecute you, that you may be children of your Father who is in heaven. For he makes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the just and the unjust.
Mat. 5:44-45

GingerBeer · Dec 17, 2017

fhansen said:
Sometimes just speaking the truth can feel like persecution to someone taking an opposing position. And I'm curious as to which leaders, specifically, became heroes of the faith?

Martin Luther, John Calvin, Bishop Cranmer, to a degree Elizabeth I queen of England, and many others who became founders of a denomination or a movement.

At the centre of the Wall are statues to William Farel, John Calvin, Theodore Beza, and John Knox. The Christogram can be seen below the statues.

There's 100m of images in the memorial wall. Many more images are in it.

Tom 1 · Dec 17, 2017

The bible tends to be brutally honest about the sins of those considered, by God, as heroes of faith - e.g Hebrews 11. I suppose David is the ultimate example of the sinner loved by God, yet considered too steeped in blood to build his temple.

GingerBeer · Dec 17, 2017

FireDragon76 said:
We don't have Luther as a larger than life figure that could do no wrong, that's more what people outside our tradition do to him. We are grateful to him for illuminating the Gospel of grace and his theological teachings, but that doesn't mean we consider him impeccable.

The image above is in Neumarkt Square, Inner Altstadt | In front of Frauenkirche, Dresden, Saxony, Germany.

There are several hundred images of Martin Luther in Lutheran churches and their grounds around the world.

A mosaic of Martin Luther was recently completed at Reformation Lutheran Church in Reiffton by artist-in-residence Beverly Leviner in observation of the 500th anniversary of the Reformation.

EP-310289995.jpg&q=80&MaxW=550&MaxH=400&RCRadius=5

FireDragon76 · Dec 17, 2017

We are expressing our gratitude to Luther. That is normal and human, don't you think? Or perhaps you don't appreciate the social changes brought about by the reformation?

Can a word from God justify cruelty?

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