Does Israel get taken over again?

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jgr said in post #102:

But (always a but) by what rationale can one first acknowledge the historical fulfillment at Calvary by Christ, then aver that there will be a future re-fulfillment of the the same prophecy elsewhere by antichrist?

Note that one verse can include two different meanings at the same time. For example the "son" in Hosea 11:1b referred to the nation of Old Covenant Israel (Exodus 4:22) and its Exodus from Egypt. Also, at the same time the "son" in Hosea 11:1b foretold an event in the life of Jesus Christ at His first coming (Matthew 2:14-15,19-21).
 
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Davy

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When Jesus Christ says: "ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies" (Luke 21:20), He is referring to the 1st part of Daniel 11:31: "And arms shall stand on his part". And when Jesus says: "the desolation" in Luke 21:20, He is referring to the "abomination of desolation" part of Daniel 11:31, just as in Matthew 24:15, He is referring to the "abomination of desolation" part of Daniel 11:31.

There's that delusion again, not understanding the idea of 'desolation'.

The Matthew 24:15 "abomination of desolation" is about the placing of an idol abomination in false worship inside the temple in Jerusalem, a standing temple. It is not about destruction, it is about spiritual desolation of the sacredness of the inside of the temple. Antiochus served as a blueprint, but Jesus warned of it from the Book of Daniel after Antiochus had been long dead.

The Luke 21:20 "desolation" is about destruction when the armies surround Jerusalem. It is not about a destruction those armies cause, it is about their... destruction on the "day of the Lord" at the battle of Armageddon when Jesus comes.
 
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jgr

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Note that one verse can include two different meanings at the same time. For example the "son" in Hosea 11:1b referred to the nation of Old Covenant Israel (Exodus 4:22) and its Exodus from Egypt. Also, at the same time the "son" in Hosea 11:1b foretold an event in the life of Jesus Christ at His first coming (Matthew 2:14-15,19-21).
The double meaning in Hosea 11:1, where both have been fulfilled, is recognizable and comprehensible.

A double meaning in Daniel 9:26, where the second meaning is the diametric opposite of the first and has not yet been fulfilled, is not recognizable and comprehensible.

You'll have to come up with a more recognizable and comprehensible example.
 
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A71

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The trouble is that Daniel 10-12 has absolutely nothing to do with the 20th Century.

Daniel 11:
2 And now will I shew thee the truth. Behold, there shall stand up yet three kings in Persia; and the fourth shall be far richer than they all: and by his strength through his riches he shall stir up all against the realm of Grecia.


The Angel is talking about events within the compass of the 490 year punishment, i.e. Events during Medo-Persian, Greek, and Roman hegemony.
 
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keras

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Although a lot of Daniel 11 is about historical events, Daniel 11:40 says: At the time of the end.....
Did the end come and we never noticed?
Daniel 12:1-13 is all plainly about future things and to deny what all the prophets tell us of God's plans for our future, simply leaves you in the dark about what must happen. 1 Thessalonians 5:4
 
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A71

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The end of what though. A game of chess has an end.
A detailed reading of Daniel makes it quite clear that these events were those events of the first Century AD and prior.
Just latching on to one word, 'end', and cobbling together an eschatololgy around it is madness
 
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keras

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The end of what though. A game of chess has an end.
A detailed reading of Daniel makes it quite clear that these events were those events of the first Century AD and prior.
Just latching on to one word, 'end', and cobbling together an eschatololgy around it is madness
And this world as we know it will also have an end. That much is plain to anyone; we cannot continue increasing our population forever!
What I regard as madness, is to ignore, allegorize or throw into history, the Prophetic Word for us, now clearly at the cusp of dramatic events.
 
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he-man

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From "Antiquities of the Jews" by Josephus, Book 12, chapter 7


"6. When therefore the generals of Antiochus's armies had been beaten so often, Judas assembled the people together, and told them, that after these many victories which God had given them, they ought to go up to Jerusalem, and purify the temple, and offer the appointed sacrifices. But as soon as he, with the whole multitude, was come to Jerusalem, and found the temple deserted, and its gates burnt down, and plants growing in the temple of their own accord, on account of its desertion, he and those that were with him began to lament, and were quite confounded at the sight of the temple; so he chose out some of his soldiers, and gave them order to fight against those guards that were in the citadel, until he should have purified the temple. When therefore he had carefully purged it, and had brought in new vessels, the candlestick, the table [of shew-bread], and the altar [of incense], which were made of gold, he hung up the veils at the gates, and added doors to them. He also took down the altar [of burnt-offering], and built a new one of stones that he gathered together, and not of such as were hewn with iron tools. So on the five and twentieth day of the month Casleu, which the Macedonians call Apeliens, they lighted the lamps that were on the candlestick, and offered incense upon the altar [of incense], and laid the loaves upon the table [of shew-bread], and offered burnt-offerings upon the new altar [of burnt-offering]. Now it so fell out, that these things were done on the very same day on which their Divine worship had fallen off, and was reduced to a profane and common use, after three years' time; for so it was, that the temple was made desolate by Antiochus, and so continued for three years. This desolation happened to the temple in the hundred forty and fifth year, on the twenty-fifth day of the month Apeliens, and on the hundred fifty and third olympiad: but it was dedicated anew, on the same day, the twenty-fifth of the month Apeliens, on the hundred and forty-eighth year, and on the hundred and fifty-fourth olympiad. And this desolation came to pass according to the prophecy of Daniel, which was given four hundred and eight years before; for he declared that the Macedonians would dissolve that worship [for some time].

7. Now Judas celebrated the festival of the restoration of the sacrifices of the temple for eight days, and omitted no sort of pleasures thereon; but he feasted them upon very rich and splendid sacrifices; and he honored God, and delighted them by hymns and psalms. Nay, they were so very glad at the revival of their customs, when, after a long time of intermission, they unexpectedly had regained the freedom of their worship, that they made it a law for their posterity, that they should keep a festival, on account of the restoration of their temple worship, for eight days. And from that time to this we celebrate this festival, and call it Lights. I suppose the reason was, because this liberty beyond our hopes appeared to us; and that thence was the name given to that festival. Judas also rebuilt the walls round about the city, and reared towers of great height against the incursions of enemies, and set guards therein. He also fortified the city Bethsura, that it might serve as a citadel against any distresses that might come from our enemies. "


Josephus confirms above the understanding of the Jews of his time, who knew that Daniel had predicted the events of 167 BC, by Antiochus Epiphanes.
Josephus confirms it as a historical fact.


John 10:22 is a reference to the celebration of Hanukkah each year by the Jews of Jesus time.



The Book of Matthew was addressed mainly to a Jewish audience. Jesus was telling the Jews of His time that something similar to 167 BC would happen during 70 AD. Not only did Antiochus desecrate the temple, but he also attacked the city killing thousands of Jews and stopped the temple sacrifices. The temple sacrifices would also stop in 70 AD, due to the destruction of the temple. Based on John 10:22, the Jews were well aware of this historical fulfillment of Daniel’s prophecy. Luke’s Gospel was written to more of a Gentile audience, so he spelled it out for them.


Matthew 24:15-16 and Luke 21:20-21 are clearly parallel accounts, because we have the same reference to flee in the second verse in each Gospel.


Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

Mat 24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:


Luk 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
Luk 21:21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.

.
Jesus will overtake Israel and all governments
 
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keras

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I do agree that we are at a cusp.

I am afraid regarding Daniel I do not agree. History is History. Jesus is a historical figure, but that doesn't invalidate him, so why should a historic fulfilment of Daniel invalidate it?
You say you are a Christian. So why do you choose to reject what God has told us thru His prophets, what He plans for our future; leading up to the Return of Jesus.
You do believe that Jesus will Return?
 
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jgr

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You say you are a Christian. So why do you choose to reject what God has told us thru His prophets, what He plans for our future; leading up to the Return of Jesus.
You do believe that Jesus will Return?
Classic "straw man" rhetoric.

The first action of an historicist is to examine history for evidence of God's interventions, and fulfillments of His prophetic promises. This is in stark contrast to the immediate psychotic speculations, and concomitant private interpretations, of the futurist.

The historicist rejects nothing. If unable to recognize and confirm God's Hand in history, he is more than willing to recognize and affirm future fulfillment.

Unlike the futurist's, the historicist's cart follows the horse.
 
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Davy said in post #105:

. . . it is about spiritual desolation of the sacredness of the inside of the temple.

That's right.

For when Daniel 9:27 says: "for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate", this is the same as "the abomination that maketh desolate" in Daniel 11:31, when the future Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") will make a 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem spiritually desolate by placing a (possibly android) image of himself (Revelation 13:15) in the holy place of the temple (Matthew 24:15) to be worshipped, and by sitting himself (at least one time) in the temple and proclaiming himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36).

In Daniel 9:27, the original Hebrew word (H3671) translated as "overspreading" can mean a wing (1 Kings 6:24). But it doesn't have to mean that every time that it is used. For it can also mean "the uttermost part" (Isaiah 24:16). The "overspreading" or "uttermost part" nature of the abomination of desolation could mean that it will involve not just the holy place of the temple, but the entire temple. For example, what the future Antichrist could do is engrave the gematrial number of his name, "666" (Revelation 13:17b-18), all over the temple, within and without, top to bottom, thereby completely defiling it, rendering it spiritually desolate.

The Antichrist will be Luciferian, bringing the world into the conscious and open worship of Lucifer (Satan, the dragon) (Revelation 13:4, Revelation 12:9), and railing against YHWH (Revelation 13:6, Daniel 11:36). He will want to utterly defile the future, 3rd Jewish temple to YHWH in Jerusalem (built by the ultra-Orthodox Jews) so that he can poke his finger in YHWH's eye, so to speak, and purportedly show the world (what he could call) "YHWH's powerlessness to defend the place which he himself has chosen" (cf. Zechariah 3:2). The Antichrist could claim that his ability to commit the abomination of desolation with impunity proves (in his words) "that YHWH cannot thwart the will of our Lord Lucifer, who empowers me" (compare 2 Thessalonians 2:9, Revelation 13:4, Revelation 12:9).

But YHWH will permit the Antichrist and Lucifer to rule the world for less than 4 years (Daniel 12:11-12), before they are defeated at Jesus Christ's future, Second Coming (Revelation 19:19 to 20:3).
 
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he-man said in post #112:

Jesus will overtake Israel and all governments

Note that Jesus Christ's Kingdom is Israel (John 1:49, John 12:13-15, John 19:19, Luke 22:30). And at His future, Second Coming, He will sit on the earthly throne of King David (Luke 1:32-33, Isaiah 9:7), and restore the kingdom to Israel (Acts 1:6-7, Acts 3:20-21). Jesus is, in His humanity, the son of David (Matthew 1:1, Matthew 21:15-16, Romans 1:3), of the house of David (Luke 1:69). So at Jesus' Second Coming, He will restore the tabernacle, the house, of David (Isaiah 16:5, Amos 9:11) to its royal glory (2 Samuel 5:12), which it had lost (2 Kings 17:21a). And Jesus will fulfill the prophecy and prayer of 2 Samuel 7:16-29. And He will bring salvation to all of the still-living, non-Christian elect Jews of the house of David. For they (along with all other still-living, non-Christian elect Jews) will become Christians when they see Jesus at His Second Coming (Zechariah 12:10-14, Zechariah 13:1,6, Romans 11:26-31). And so they will all become part of the Church at that time. For there are no Christians outside of the Church (Ephesians 4:4-6).

After Jesus Christ's Second Coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:3, Zechariah 14:3-5) will occur the Millennium (Revelation 20:4-6, Zechariah 14:8-21), during which time the Gentile nations will come to seek the returned Jesus ruling the whole earth (Zechariah 8:22, Zechariah 14:9, Psalms 72:8-11) on the restored throne of David (Isaiah 9:7) in the earthly Jerusalem (Isaiah 2:1-4, Zechariah 14:8-11,16-19). And the physically resurrected Church will reign on the earth with Jesus during the Millennium (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29). For the Church is Israel (Romans 11:1,17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29, Revelation 21:9,12; 1 Peter 2:9-10).
 
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jgr said in post #115:

Unlike the futurist's, the historicist's cart follows the horse.

To the contrary, especially in light of the horse of Revelation 19:11.

That is, Revelation chapters 6 to 22 are still future to us because they're about "things which must be hereafter" (Revelation 4:1b). And just as Jesus' Christ's Second Coming in Revelation 19:7 to 20:3 has never been fulfilled, for nowhere in history books do we find its fulfillment, so the highly-detailed events of the preceding Tribulation in Revelation chapters 6 to 18 have never been fulfilled, for nowhere in history books do we find their fulfillment.
 
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A71

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No. Jerusalem was not the Holy place. Consistent with the rest of the Bible the Holy place was in the temple. Gentiles WERE allowed in Jerusalem. Gentiles were NOT allowed in the temple because it contained the Holy place. The event which occurred in 167 BC is intended to inform our understanding of its recurrence which was not fulfilled in AD 70.

What an extraordinarily scripturally ignorant, and false, statement. Here, to set you on your way, are 21 Biblical quotations showing that the City of Jerusalem was considered holy.


Psalm 3:4

I cried unto the Lord with my voice, and he heard me out of his holy hill. Selah.


Psalm 15:1

Lord, who shall abide in thy tabernacle? who shall dwell in thy holy hill?


Psalm 43:3

O send out thy light and thy truth: let them lead me; let them bring me unto thy holy hill, and to thy tabernacles.


Psalm 99:9

Exalt the Lord our God, and worship at his holy hill; for the Lord our God is holy.


Psalm 2:6

Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion.

Isaiah 52:1

Awake, awake; put on thy strength, O Zion; put on thy beautiful garments, O Jerusalem, the holy city: for henceforth there shall no more come into thee the uncircumcised and the unclean.



Isaiah 64:10

Thy holy cities are a wilderness, Zion is a wilderness, Jerusalem a desolation.


Joel 2:1

Blow ye the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy mountain: let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the day of the Lord cometh, for it is nigh at hand;

Joel 3:17

So shall ye know that I am the Lord your God dwelling in Zion, my holy mountain: then shall Jerusalem be holy, and there shall no strangers pass through her any more


Nehemiah 11:1

And the rulers of the people dwelt at Jerusalem: the rest of the people also cast lots, to bring one of ten to dwell in Jerusalem the holy city, and nine parts to dwell in other cities


Isaiah 27:13

And it shall come to pass in that day, that the great trumpet shall be blown, and they shall come which were ready to perish in the land of Assyria, and the outcasts in the land of Egypt, and shall worship the Lord in the holy mount at Jerusalem.


Isaiah 66:20

And they shall bring all your brethren for an offering unto the Lord out of all nations upon horses, and in chariots, and in litters, and upon mules, and upon swift beasts, to my holy mountain Jerusalem, saith the Lord, as the children of Israel bring an offering in a clean vessel into the house of the Lord.


Daniel 9:16

O Lord, according to all thy righteousness, I beseech thee, let thine anger and thy fury be turned away from thy city Jerusalem, thy holy mountain: because for our sins, and for the iniquities of our fathers, Jerusalem and thy people are become a reproach to all that are about us.


Zechariah 8:3

Thus saith the Lord; I am returned unto Zion, and will dwell in the midst of Jerusalem: and Jerusalem shall be called a city of truth; and the mountain of the Lord of hosts the holy mountain

Nehemiah 11:18

All the Levites in the holy city were two hundred fourscore and four.


Psalm 46:4

There is a river, the streams whereof shall make glad the city of God, the holy place of the tabernacles of the most High.


Isaiah 48:2

For they call themselves of the holy city, and stay themselves upon the God of Israel; The Lord of hosts is his name.

Daniel 9:24

Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.


Matthew 4:5

Then the devil taketh him up into the holy city, and setteth him on a pinnacle of the temple,


Matthew 27:53

And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.


Revelation 11:2

But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.
 
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jgr

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To the contrary, especially in light of the horse of Revelation 19:11.

Good one, thanks for the chuckle.

You've obviously moved your cart out of the way so the horse can proceed.

But that horse already has a Rider, so I guess you'll be footing it rather than hoofing it.

Blessings.
 
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Douggg

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The Angel is talking about events within the compass of the 490 year punishment, i.e. Events during Medo-Persian, Greek, and Roman hegemony.
The last 7 years of the 490 years are still ahead of us - but close - before the messianic age begins.
 
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I wanted to know if Israel ever loses a war or gets conquered/taken over by another country in the future.
There are no more prophetic events to occur except for the second coming of Christ, the great white throne judgment, and the eternal utopian new heavens and new earth. In the new heavens and new earth, Israel will exist as described in the last chapters of Ezekiel.
 
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