7 seals of Revelation - Bible study LIVE

Douggg · Dec 14, 2017

claninja said:
Again:
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
Galatians 3:28

Bible prophecy is not just about Christians. Ezekiel 38, 39 doesn't even involve Christians, for example. It is clearly about physical Israel.

Douggg · Dec 14, 2017

claninja said:
According to Josephus in his work, the wars of the Jews: book 6 chapter 6 section 1,the Romans placed Aquila ensigns ( eagle statues) in the temple, sacrificed in the temple, and named Titus imperator.

Luke, who often explains things for gentile readers, gives us this:

20 “But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation has come near.
Luke 21:20

This happened during the Jewish roman war.

The issue is not over those parts of Luke 21:20 as having happened in 70 AD. It is agreed that Luke 21:20 is about 70 AD.

Josephus recorded history, but it was not the fulfllment of the end times abomination of desolation. There is no -

24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

- following the abomination of desolation in Matthew 24.

Also, connected, but not the exact same thing, is the transgression of desolation by the little horn person in Daniel 8 - that vision in the text said to be at the time of the end.

Davy · Dec 14, 2017

claninja said:
The apostles had preached the gospel to the all the known world before the old covenant officially ended in 70AD

if indeed you continue in the faith, stable and steadfast, not shifting from the hope of the gospel that you heard, which has been proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, became a minister.
Colossians 1:23

The apostles believed they were living in the last days and end of the age.

Now these things happened to them as an example, but they were written down for our instruction, on whom the end of the ages has come.
1 Corinthians 10:11

For these people are not drunk, as you suppose, since it is only the third hour of the day. But this is what was uttered through the prophet Joel: “‘And in the last days it shall be, God declares, that I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh, and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams;
Acts 2:15-17

It’s important to understand what the end is, it is not the physical world, but the end of the old covenant age.

For if it is truly the physical heavens and earth that must pass away, then we are still under the law and it is not fulfilled

18 For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished.
Matthew 5:18

Strange how you create conditions The Bible doesn't make, like that, "...then we are still under the law and it is not fulfilled."

Our Lord Jesus nor His Apostles ever taught that His having fulfilled the law means He did away with all of it. Colossians 2 teaches it was the "handwriting of ordinances" that Jesus nailed to His cross. That didn't mean all of God's laws, even as Paul shows in 1 Timothy 1. So you've been mistaught on that point.

Secondly, the idea of the heavens and earth passing away is about God destroying man's works off this earth like He did with Noah's flood, except this next time using fire. That's what Peter was teaching in 2 Peter 3. It doesn't mean this earth is going to be turned into some floating gaseous state in space. It simply means the surface of this earth being cleansed by God's consuming fire.

You misunderstand the Matt.5:18 verse also. The OT prophets were included with the Books of the law, and both still have last days prophecies in them. Haven't you ever read Genesis 49 with Jacob's message to His twelve sons of what would befall them in the last days? So our Lord Jesus was simply saying this present world is not going to end until all those OT prophecies are complete.

claninja · Dec 14, 2017

Douggg said:
Bible prophecy is not just about Christians.

Absolutely agree

Douggg said:
Josephus recorded history, but it was not the fulfllment of the end times abomination of desolation. There is no -

24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

- following the abomination of desolation in Matthew 24.

Actually there is. Josephus records that over 1 million Jews were killed during the Jewish Romans wars and estimated that around 100,000 were taken captive.

Physical-slave Jerusalem had been ruled by the Gentiles since Israel's exile. (Babylon -->Medo/Persian-->Greeks--->Romans). The physical Jerusalem was expelled in 70AD (galatians 4:30). The gentiles no longer rule over Jerusalem nor can they trample it any longer, as true Jerusalem is not physical, but spiritual.

Galatians 4:26
26But the Jerusalem above is free, and she is our mother

Hebrews 12:22
Instead, you have come to Mount Zion, to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem

claninja · Dec 15, 2017

Davy said:
Strange how you create conditions The Bible doesn't make, like that, "...then we are still under the law and it is not fulfilled."

I didn’t create the condition, Jesus did. He’s the one who said nothing in the law would pass UNTIL heaven and earth pass away.

Davy said:
Our Lord Jesus nor His Apostles ever taught that His having fulfilled the law means He did away with all of it.

I agree, I never said all the law would be done away with either.

Davy said:
Colossians 2 teaches it was the "handwriting of ordinances" that Jesus nailed to His cross. That didn't mean all of God's laws, even as Paul shows in 1 Timothy 1. So you've been mistaught on that point

Actually it appears we agree. Your wording makes it sound as some (not all) of the law no longer applies to us anymore. Which I agree with.

The problem then enlies with Jesus saying nothing, not one jot or tittle, will pass away from the Law until heaven and earth pass away. If Jesus means literal heaven and earth, well then We should still be requiring circumcision, feasts, animal sacrifices.....etc.

But if Jesus meant the passing away of th old covenant, well then, We currently don’t have to worry about animal sacrifices, feasts, circumcision....etc.

Davy said:
You misunderstand the Matt.5:18 verse also. The OT prophets were included with the Books of the law, and both still have last days prophecies in them.

Let’s look at the whole verse in its context:

17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished. 19 Therefore whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.
Matthew 5:17-20

If you notice Jesus states initially that he came to fulfill the law AND prophets. Then When he talks about nothing changing until heaven and earth pass away, it’s only about the Law. Prophesies cannot change, otherwise, they are false prophecies. But the law can change, and it did (Hebrews 7:12). but if we’re talking about physical heavens and earth passing away, then we have a problem, as the law shouldn’t have changed.

The context of only the law continues in vs 19 where Jesus states that the commandments must continue to be taught as they are written in the law. For if you teach anything different then you may become least in the kingdom or not even enter it.

Davy said:
Haven't you ever read Genesis 49 with Jacob's message to His twelve sons of what would befall them in the last days?

.

Yes I have. Let’s not forget the disciples believed they were living in the last days

Davy said:
So our Lord Jesus was simply saying this present world is not going to end until all those OT prophecies are complete.

The context of Matthew 5:17-20, disagrees with this interpretation. The prophets are not included in the law. Otherwise Jesus would have said until heaven and earth pass away nothing will pass from the law and prophets. Prophecies don’t change, but the law has:

For when there is a change in the priesthood, there is necessarily a change in the law as well.
Hebrews 7:12

Davy · Dec 15, 2017

claninja said:
I didn’t create the condition, Jesus did. He’s the one who said nothing in the law would pass UNTIL heaven and earth pass away.

I agree, I never said all the law would be done away with either.

You said this:
"For if it is truly the physical heavens and earth that must pass away, then we are still under the law and it is not fulfilled"

Well, it truly is the heavens and the earth that must pass away before all prophecy in the law and the prophets for this world is fulfilled, which was Jesus' actual meaning. The idea is about heaven being rolled up like a scroll (Isaiah 34:4), and God shaking this earth and bringing His consuming fire on it to burn man's works off it (Hebrews 12:25-29 and 2 Peter 3:10).

Since your disclaimer is that IF that event is literal (and it is), "then we are still under the law and it is not fulfilled." That is what led me to respond the way I did.

The problem then enlies with Jesus saying nothing, not one jot or tittle, will pass away from the Law until heaven and earth pass away. If Jesus means literal heaven and earth, well then We should still be requiring circumcision, feasts, animal sacrifices.....etc.

I don't know where that kind of reasoning is coming from. It doesn't make sense, and certainly is not Biblical. The main idea He was saying is that this present world will not pass away until all written in the law and the prophets is fulfilled. It hasn't all been fulfilled yet. So what He was telling us is the same idea Peter told us here too...

2 Peter 3:2
2 That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour:
KJV

We are not to just study the New Testament Books, but the Old Testament Books also, because the OT Books still have prophecy in them not yet come to pass, even to the time after... Jesus' return in our near future. It doesn't mean everything in the OT has already been fulfilled even though Jesus came and offered us the New Covenant.

In other words, the phrase "Old Testament" does NOT mean 'Old Covenant', for the Old Covenant was only about the first five books of Moses. You still have the major and minor prophets, the Psalms, 1 & 2 Kings and Chronicles, which are not the law, but they are part of the "Old Testament Books".

But if Jesus meant the passing away of th old covenant, well then, We currently don’t have to worry about animal sacrifices, feasts, circumcision....etc.

And that's true, however... per Apostle Paul in Romans and Galatians, IF we walk by The Spirit... then we are not under the law (Gal.5).

What happens when we slip up and walk by the flesh instead? We place ourselves back under God's laws, which Paul also shows in 1 Timothy 1 for what reason the law was made for. But we in Christ Jesus can ask Him forgiveness of our slip ups, and like Apostle John said, Jesus is faithful to cleanse us from unrighteousness and forgive us (1 John 1).

So God's laws from the OT that are still in place today (like against murder, rape, thefts, etc.) are so that we could have peace, and not to be a burden on us.

Douggg · Dec 15, 2017

claninja said:
Actually there is. Josephus records that over 1 million Jews were killed during the Jewish Romans wars and estimated that around 100,000 were taken captive.

No, I was comparing bible verses to bible verses - not your interpretation.

What I wrote was that there are no verses in Matthew 24, in the bible, after verse 15, the abomination of desolation - comparable to the verse in Luke 21 about the dispersion of the Jews into the nations, following the desolation of Jerusalem.

There is no dispersion of the Jews in the text of Matthew 24 following Matthew 24:15 because Matthew 24:15 and the remainder of the chapter - is not about 70 AD.- but the end times.

Matthew 24:
14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand: )

Davy · Dec 16, 2017

These events are not about the 70 A.D. destruction of Jerusalem and the temple by the Romans.

Luke 21:20-28
20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.

On the final day of this world is the battle of Armageddon. That's what that gathering of armies against Jerusalem is about. The "desolation thereof is nigh" is about that army's destruction with the Armageddon event (which is the Ezek.38-39 event).

21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.

This warning to flee Judea is about the coming false messiah and later destruction there by Jesus on the "day of the Lord", as especially shown in the next verse.

22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

This is the pouring out of God's wrath on earth on the last day of this world, the day of vengenance of Isaiah 61:2, the part Jesus did not read at the start of His Ministry in Luke 4 because it's for His second coming.

23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.

More to this than just pregnant women in that time. It has to do with deception per the parable of the barren woman in Isaiah 54.

24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

That does point to a larger period of time, but the latter underlined part is specific to the 6th trumpet event in Rev.11 involving a rebuilt temple in Jerusalem for the end, the Gentiles being given 42 months to tread the city, and the outer court given to them.

25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.

These are definitely signs of the very last day when Jesus returns.

27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
KJV

No mistaking the timing with that; it's about the day of Jesus' coming on the "day of the Lord" to pour out His cup of wrath on the wicked on earth and take over all the kingdoms on earth as per the 7th trumpet. Those kind of events given in Luke 21 prevents someone from arbitrarily assigning 70 A.D. events to it.

BABerean2 · Dec 16, 2017

Davy said:
These events are not about the 70 A.D. destruction of Jerusalem and the temple by the Romans.

Luke 21:20-28
20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.

On the final day of this world is the battle of Armageddon. That's what that gathering of armies against Jerusalem is about. The "desolation thereof is nigh" is about that army's destruction with the Armageddon event (which is the Ezek.38-39 event).

21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.

This warning to flee Judea is about the coming false messiah and later destruction there by Jesus on the "day of the Lord", as especially shown in the next verse.

22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

This is the pouring out of God's wrath on earth on the last day of this world, the day of vengenance of Isaiah 61:2, the part Jesus did not read at the start of His Ministry in Luke 4 because it's for His second coming.

23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.

More to this than just pregnant women in that time. It has to do with deception per the parable of the barren woman in Isaiah 54.

24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

That does point to a larger period of time, but the latter underlined part is specific to the 6th trumpet event in Rev.11 involving a rebuilt temple in Jerusalem for the end, the Gentiles being given 42 months to tread the city, and the outer court given to them.

25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.

These are definitely signs of the very last day when Jesus returns.

27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
KJV

No mistaking the timing with that; it's about the day of Jesus' coming on the "day of the Lord" to pour out His cup of wrath on the wicked on earth and take over all the kingdoms on earth as per the 7th trumpet. Those kind of events given in Luke 21 prevents someone from arbitrarily assigning 70 A.D. events to it.

Almost all Bible scholars agree that the first part of Luke 21:24 is about the events of 70 AD.

Check it for yourself and come back and tell us what percentage of Bible scholars believe that the first part of the verse lies in the future.

Luk 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

At the end of the verse we find a time period called "the times of the Gentiles".
This time period ends at the future Second Coming of Christ, as proven by the text that follows.

Luk 21:25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
Luk 21:26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
Luk 21:27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

.

keras · Dec 16, 2017

Douggg said:
Bible prophecy is not just about Christians. Ezekiel 38, 39 doesn't even involve Christians, for example. It is clearly about physical Israel.

C'mon you guys; get the basics right!
Jesus came to save anyone who believes in Him. John 3:16
Who is the true Israel of God? Those who call themselves Jews? Revelation 3:9 No way!
There is only ONE people of God; true born again believers. Ephesians 4:4-6 The rest are destined for destruction and that includes the Jews who still refuse Jesus. Romans 9:22

Ezekiel 38:8 does say: the Israelites gathered out of the nations..... They are plainly a people far more and different from just the Jews.
Ezekiel 34:1-16 tell us that the Lord will gather His sheep into all of the holy Land, soon after a Day of cloud and darkness. This refers to the Lord's Day of wrath, Amos 5:18-20, Revelation 6:12
Who are His 'sheep'? Christians from every tribe, race, nation and language. John 10:16
It is we Christians who will live in the holy Land, in peace and prosperity, while the rest of the world will be ruled by a One World Government, soon to be taken over by a powerful dictator.
Proved by Revelation 12:6-17, where Satan persecutes the 'woman', who is the offspring of the male child; Jesus.

Douggg · Dec 16, 2017

keras said:
C'mon you guys; get the basics right!
Jesus came to save anyone who believes in Him. John 3:16
Who is the true Israel of God? Those who call themselves Jews? Revelation 3:9 No way!
There is only ONE people of God; true born again believers.

Keras, Ezekiel 39 is not talking about Christians.

23 And the heathen shall know that the house of Israel went into captivity for their iniquity: because they trespassed against me, therefore hid I my face from them, and gave them into the hand of their enemies: so fell they all by the sword.

24 According to their uncleanness and according to their transgressions have I done unto them, and hid my face from them.

25 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Now will I bring again the captivity of Jacob, and have mercy upon the whole house of Israel, and will be jealous for my holy name;

Davy · Dec 16, 2017

BABerean2 said:
Almost all Bible scholars agree that the first part of Luke 21:24 is about the events of 70 AD.

When the signs Jesus revealed in Luke 21 show the same situation as Matt.24 and Mark 13 about the 'end' of this world leading up to His second coming, one can easily disregard what a lot of scholars say about those verses because of men's traditions. We can find scholars who stand on various positions on these Scriptures which don't agree with each other, but listening to all that is like straining at a gnat.

If God through The Holy Spirit doesn't show the believer, then the believer is left to men's traditions and scholarly battles.

Davy · Dec 16, 2017

How can God make a new covenant with the house of Judah and the house of Israel if... they no longer exist?

Heb 8:8-13
8 For finding fault with them, he saith, 'Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in My covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.

10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put My laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to Me a people:

11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know Me, from the least to the greatest.

12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

13 In that He saith, A new covenant, He hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.
KJV

BABerean2 · Dec 16, 2017

Davy said:
How can God make a new covenant with the house of Judah and the house of Israel if... they no longer exist?

Act 2:22　 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:　

Act 2:36　 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.　
Act 2:37　 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?　
Act 2:38　 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.　
Act 2:39　 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.　
Act 2:40　 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.　
Act 2:41　 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.　

Jas 1:1　 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.　

Jas 1:2　 My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations;　

Jas 1:3　 Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience.

Jer_31:31　 "Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah—

Mat_26:28　 For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

Mar_14:24　 And He said to them, "This is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many.

Luk_22:20　 Likewise He also took the cup after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in My blood, which is shed for you.

1Co_11:25　 In the same manner He also took the cup after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in My blood. This do, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me."

2Co_3:6　 who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

Heb_8:8　 Because finding fault with them, He says: "BEHOLD, THE DAYS ARE COMING, SAYS THE LORD, WHEN I WILL MAKE A NEW COVENANT WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND WITH THE HOUSE OF JUDAH—

Heb_8:13　 In that He says, "A NEW COVENANT," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

Heb_9:15　 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.

Heb_12:24　 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.

NKJV

Davy · Dec 16, 2017

As I said, how can God make a new covenant to the house of Judah and house of Israel IF... they no longer exist???

The question is not that He did, but how since some here want to think that the seed of Israel has been cast away, contrary to God's Word.

keras · Dec 16, 2017

Davy said:
As I said, how can God make a new covenant to the house of Judah and house of Israel IF... they no longer exist???

The question is not that He did, but how since some here want to think that the seed of Israel has been cast away, contrary to God's Word.

Jesus is the 'Seed of Israel'. Galatians 3:16 and 26-29

The house of Israel and Judah do exist today. But only God knows exactly who they are. Amos 9:9
They remain scattered among the nations and are now people from every nation and language. To know who they all are, is simple; they are the born again Christians! THEY are the chosen race, a royal priesthood, the dedicated nation, the people claimed by God for His own....1 Peter 2:9-10 The nation that bears the proper fruit. Matthew 21:43

Thinking that the apostate and Jesus hating nation that currently occupies Israel, has any place in God's plan for the future, contradicts many Bible prophesies. Isaiah 22:14, Ezekiel 21:1-7, +
They have had 2000 years of opportunity to change their ways and God has helped them over the last 70 years, as they present the visible face of the original Israelites. But the true Israelites of God, He has kept under wraps, to be gathered and become the new nation of Beulah, soon after He has cleansed all the holy Land area. Isaiah 62:1-5, Romans 9:24-26

Davy · Dec 16, 2017

keras said:
Jesus is the 'Seed of Israel'. Galatians 3:16 and 26-29

The house of Israel and Judah do exist today. But only God knows exactly who they are. Amos 9:9
They remain scattered among the nations and are now people from every nation and language. To know who they all are, is simple; they are the born again Christians! THEY are the chosen race, a royal priesthood, the dedicated nation, the people claimed by God for His own....1 Peter 2:9-10 The nation that bears the proper fruit. Matthew 21:43

Thinking that the apostate and Jesus hating nation that currently occupies Israel, has any place in God's plan for the future, contradicts many Bible prophesies. Isaiah 22:14, Ezekiel 21:1-7, +
They have had 2000 years of opportunity to change their ways and God has helped them over the last 70 years, as they present the visible face of the original Israelites. But the true Israelites of God, He has kept under wraps, to be gathered and become the new nation of Beulah, soon after He has cleansed all the holy Land area. Isaiah 62:1-5, Romans 9:24-26

Although I hate the rebelliousness of the unbelievers of Israel, I would have to lie in order to say that we can't know who and where they are today. Apostle James knew where they were scattered; Josephus knew they were still scattered abroad in his day, and even that they were a great number of people, too many to be counted. So I don't buy into the hype that we can't know where God scattered them to and who they are today.

I've already mentioned God's promise to always have one tribe in Jerusalem for His servant David's sake (1 Kings 11:36). There was no response to that verse because anyone who argues against it would be calling God a liar.

Didn't anyone know about the migrations of the ten tribes to the west? Yes, some knew who they were, and their origins of ancient Israel...

From The Declaration of Arbroath 1320 A.D.

Most Holy Father and Lord, we know and from the chronicles and books of the ancients we find that among other famous nations our own, the Scots, has been graced with widespread renown. They journeyed from Greater Scythia by way of the Tyrrhenian Sea and the Pillars of Hercules, and dwelt for a long course of time in Spain among the most savage tribes, but nowhere could they be subdued by any race, however barbarous. Thence they came, twelve hundred years after the people of Israel crossed the Red Sea, to their home in the west where they still live today.

keras · Dec 16, 2017

Yes; some know about where the ten tribes are, but it is God's purpose for now, that they remain hidden to general knowledge.
It is we Caucasian peoples who have fulfilled the prophesies of Jacob and Moses for the ten 'lost' tribes. We are the ones who have accepted the Salvation offered by Jesus. We are the 'lost sheep of the House of Israel' and all who stand strong in their faith during the forthcoming testing times ahead, will experience the incredible blessings that the Lord will lavish upon His people. Jeremiah 33:6-14, Hosea 2:14-23, Ezekiel 36:8-12, +
But note that ethnicity does not mean any true believers are precluded from this. Isaiah 56:1-8 says all who are righteous are His people. Psalms 37:29

BABerean2 · Dec 17, 2017

Davy said:
The question is not that He did, but how since some here want to think that the seed of Israel has been cast away, contrary to God's Word.

Since I have had Jewish Christians in my home for Bible study, they clearly have not.

I do not know who "some" would be, but I am not one of them.

However, in the New Covenant genealogy is not a factor.

1Ti_1:4 nor give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which cause disputes rather than godly edification which is in faith.

Tit_3:9 But avoid foolish disputes, genealogies, contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and useless.

No racial group of people is "cast away" under the New Covenant.

.

claninja · Dec 17, 2017

Davy said:
You said this:
"For if it is truly the physical heavens and earth that must pass away, then we are still under the law and it is not fulfilled"

I did say that.

If Jesus did not fulfill the Law then we are still under the Law. What part the Law did Jesus not fulfill???

Davy said:
Well, it truly is the heavens and the earth that must pass away before all prophecy in the law and the prophets for this world is fulfilled, which was Jesus' actual meaning.

It literally does not say that in verse 18. What does not one jot or tittle passing from the Law mean to you???

It does however say UNTIL HEAVEN AND EARTH PASS AWAY, nothing, not one jot or tittle, will pass from the Law.

This leads us to an apparent contradiction if it is about the physical heavens and earth passing away, as the law did change: Hebrews 7:12

For when there is a change in the priesthood, there is necessarily a change in the law as well.

Another contradiction if it is about the physical heavens and earth passing away before a jot or tittle pass from the law is: colossians 2:16-17
Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath (part of 10 commandments). 17These are a shadow of the things to come, but the substance belongs to Christ.

Davy said:
The idea is about heaven being rolled up like a scroll (Isaiah 34:4), and God shaking this earth and bringing His consuming fire on it to burn man's works off it (Hebrews 12:25-29 and 2 Peter 3:10).

Its very important to know the language of the old testament especially when it is used for judgement, and how it is used in the new testament:

Isaiah 51:6
Lift up your eyes to the heavens, look at the earth beneath; the heavens will vanish like smoke,
the earth will wax old like a garment

Hebrews 1:10-11
He also says, “In the beginning, Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth, and the heavens are the work of your hands. 11They will perish, but you remain; they will all wax old like a garment.

Hebrews 8:13
In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

Here is how God proclaimed judgement against Babylon by using the Medes:

Isaiah 13:13
Therefore I will make the heavens tremble, and the earth will be shaken out of its place,

Let's look at the judgment against Ninevah:
Nahum 1:1-5
The burden of Nineveh. The book of the vision of Nahum the Elkoshite.

2God is jealous, and the LORD revengeth; the LORD revengeth, and is furious; the LORD will take vengeance on his adversaries, and he reserveth wrath for his enemies.

3The LORD is slow to anger, and great in power, and will not at all acquit the wicked: the LORD hath his way in the whirlwind and in the storm, and the clouds are the dust of his feet.

4He rebuketh the sea, and maketh it dry, and drieth up all the rivers: Bashan languisheth, and Carmel, and the flower of Lebanon languisheth.

5The mountains quake at him, and the hills melt, and the earth is burned at his presence, yea, the world, and all that dwell therein.

Davy said:
We are not to just study the New Testament Books, but the Old Testament Books also,

Agree, if we don't know how language is used in the OT, we will easily misinterpret the NT.

Davy said:
In other words, the phrase "Old Testament" does NOT mean 'Old Covenant',

Agree. The old covenant (the Law) came 430 years after abraham
Galatians 3:17
And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.

Davy said:
So God's laws from the OT that are still in place today (like against murder, rape, thefts, etc.) are so that we could have peace, and not to be a burden on us.

Agree, to love your neighbor as yourself is greater than burnt offerings (part of the Law)
Mark 12:33
and to love Him with all your heart and with all your understanding and with all your strength, and to love your neighbor as yourself, which is more important than all burnt offerings and sacrifices.”
34When Jesus saw that the man had answered wisely, He said, “You are not far from the kingdom of God.”

Do we need to sacrifice animals today? No of course not because the Law has changed.

But how can a jot or tittle pass away from the Law if, according to you, physical heaven and earth have not passed away?

7 seals of Revelation - Bible study LIVE

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