Millennial Considerations

Stephen Mendes · Dec 15, 2017

BABerean2,

Revelation is not written Chronologically ...... there are Parenthetic passages inserted all over the place..... and the scene frequently switches between Earth and Heaven...

This is actually quite common in Prophetic vision..... see the passages in Isaiah were both the First and Second coming flow into each other without distinction.

This confused the Scribes and Pharisees.... they just could not reconcile or understand the suffering savior with the conquering savior..... the fact that it was two visits to the planet separated by thousands of years is simply not there.....it is NOT a chronological account (and neither is Revelation) instead Isaiah moves from talking about stuff concerning His first coming straight into stuff concerning His second coming.

The problem of piecing together the timeline of events in the future is not a simple matter...... but throwing out the baby with the bathwater is not the way to solve it...... all verses must be considered and included in a way that makes sense.

The beginning of Revelation 20 talks plainly about Satan being bound for a 1000 years and then let out to deceive the 'nations'.... and this is followed by yet another judgement..... before the eternal state.

When Jesus Christ was living among humans (not immortals with glorified bodies) He was mocked, spit upon, shamefully treated..... doesn't it seem reasonable that He should have a global earthly kingdom reigning over mortal human beings that are honoring Him as He deserves to be honored ?...... it's only in the last 2 chapters of the Bible that God even mentions the eternal state.... beginning in Chapter 21... Behold I make all things new.... and the new earth the new heaven and the new Jerusalem appear....... there is so much to go on the present earth before that time...... the Antichrist has his day ....... don't you think that Jesus Christ the rightful king should have His day also ? on the actual earth on which all of human history has unfolded ?

Well there are thousands of scriptures that speak to this time period that shows 'Paradise restored' and I can't understand where the resistance to accepting them comes from ...... of what possible benefit is this amillennialist doctrine to your Christian life ?

If you know all the various pre-millennial interpretations ..... and have fully explored the scriptures ..... and then chosen the amillennialist position intentionally ....as an 'informed choice' then I am even more amazed.

Try reading The Millennial Kingdom by John F. Walvoord, President of Dallas Theological Seminary ISBN 0-310-34091-8

This text examines in detail the history of Millennialism and all the various positions on it...... the evidence is overwhelming.... no emotional attachment to a particular position..... and he concludes pre-millennialism .... only after a thorough and I mean THOROUGH exploration of everything .... this is a rigorous academic work..... it is factual.... truthful.... and convincing .... and I recommend it to everybody.....

Truth7t7 · Dec 15, 2017

vinsight4u said:
Zechariah 14 is not about the New Jerusalem. It is for the time after Armageddon - Israel returns to her land and dwells safely---later there will be a great tumult and then the survivors must come to Jerusalem to worship the King and keep the feast of tabernacles. ---or they get no rain

How did this Jerusalem come into being?
Zechariah 14 v 10 says "it shall be lifted up"

not - came down out of heaven

Zechatiah 14 is the eternal kingdom, verse 6-7 eternal light, verse 8 the eternal river of life, also seen in Revelation 22:1-5
Verse 12 the last day judgment by the Lords fire, also seen in 2 Peter 3:10-13

Stephen Mendes · Dec 15, 2017

Final post and then I am outta here for a good while.... cause I have scripts to mark and loads of work piling up.... not retired like some of you.

It would seem that there are far more scriptures that have to be 'fiddled with' to make the amillennialist position 'fit'....

While in the pre-millennial position it fits naturally to the bulk of the prophecy and only a small number of verses need 'extra clarification' and further 'research'

When trying to determine what the Bible says on any matter we should consider the entire Bible...... in most cases of importance there is overwhelming consensus from multiple books and authors ..... if it's important, God makes sure to get the message across.

Clearly this discussion could go on forever...... whatever position you hold ..... best wishes to you and have a blessed Christmas.

Truth7t7 · Dec 15, 2017

Stephen Mendes said:
BABerean2,

Revelation is not written Chronologically ...... there are Parenthetic passages inserted all over the place..... and the scene frequently switches between Earth and Heaven...

This is actually quite common in Prophetic vision..... see the passages in Isaiah were both the First and Second coming flow into each other without distinction.

This confused the Scribes and Pharisees.... they just could not reconcile or understand the suffering savior with the conquering savior..... the fact that it was two visits to the planet separated by thousands of years is simply not there.....it is NOT a chronological account (and neither is Revelation) instead Isaiah moves from talking about stuff concerning His first coming straight into stuff concerning His second coming.

The problem of piecing together the timeline of events in the future is not a simple matter...... but throwing out the baby with the bathwater is not the way to solve it...... all verses must be considered and included in a way that makes sense.

The beginning of Revelation 20 talks plainly about Satan being bound for a 1000 years and then let out to deceive the 'nations'.... and this is followed by yet another judgement..... before the eternal state.

When Jesus Christ was living among humans (not immortals with glorified bodies) He was mocked, spit upon, shamefully treated..... doesn't it seem reasonable that He should have a global earthly kingdom reigning over mortal human beings that are honoring Him as He deserves to be honored ?...... it's only in the last 2 chapters of the Bible that God even mentions the eternal state.... beginning in Chapter 21... Behold I make all things new.... and the new earth the new heaven and the new Jerusalem appear....... there is so much to go on the present earth before that time...... the Antichrist has his day ....... don't you think that Jesus Christ the rightful king should have His day also ? on the actual earth on which all of human history has unfolded ?

Well there are thousands of scriptures that speak to this time period that shows 'Paradise restored' and I can't understand where the resistance to accepting them comes from ...... of what possible benefit is this amillennialist doctrine to your Christian life ?

If you know all the various pre-millennial interpretations ..... and have fully explored the scriptures ..... and then chosen the amillennialist position intentionally ....as an 'informed choice' then I am even more amazed.

Try reading The Millennial Kingdom by John F. Walvoord, President of Dallas Theological Seminary ISBN 0-310-34091-8

This text examines in detail the history of Millennialism and all the various positions on it...... the evidence is overwhelming.... no emotional attachment to a particular position..... and he concludes pre-millennialism .... only after a thorough and I mean THOROUGH exploration of everything .... this is a rigorous academic work..... it is factual.... truthful.... and convincing .... and I recommend it to everybody.....

There ya have it Steve, a big longwinded writing, no scripture and it ends with John Walvord and Dallas Theological Cemetary.

We live here in the USA where the false teaching was largely established.

Who started Dallas Theological, Lewis S. Chaffer

Who was C.I. Scofield the mentor of Chaffer?

Scofield abandoned his wife and two daughters, ran off to Dallas Texas to pastor a church, and married a girl Hetty Van Wark in his sunday school class, shortly after his divorce.

You need to research the foundation of your belief, your "Way Behind" over there in South Africa is it?

P.S. Jesus Wasn't born on December 25th, a pagan festival surrounding the winter solstice, im not the grinch, just a little light in truth.

Truth7t7 · Dec 15, 2017

Stephen Mendes said:
Final post and then I am outta here for a good while.... cause I have scripts to mark and loads of work piling up.... not retired like some of you.

It would seem that there are far more scriptures that have to be 'fiddled with' to make the amillennialist position 'fit'....

While in the pre-millennial position it fits naturally to the bulk of the prophecy and only a small number of verses need 'extra clarification' and further 'research'

When trying to determine what the Bible says on any matter we should consider the entire Bible...... in most cases of importance there is overwhelming consensus from multiple books and authors ..... if it's important, God makes sure to get the message across.

Clearly this discussion could go on forever...... whatever position you hold ..... best wishes to you and have a blessed Christmas.

final post and your outtahere for a long while?

You law down challenges, the challenge is accepted, on your claim there are thousands of verses that prove your proclaimed 1000 year mortal kingdom on this earth?

Then you run away in the face of this challenge in debate , without response as the challenge awaits

DavidPT · Dec 15, 2017

Truth7t7 said:
Dave Ezekiel 39:23-29 clearly shows the event of chapter 39 is in relationship to Israel and the "Babylonian Captivity" 536BC

Verse 23 they went into the captivity

Verse 25 they are brought out of the captivity

Verse 27 they are brought out of the enemies land

You will now resort to history books trying to establish a war with weapons being burnt for seven months?

Gods words are very clear its the Babylonian captivity, and Israels return from the enemies land, "Fulfilled"!

The weapons are being burned for 7 years, not 7 months. Probably just a typo on your part. You indicate the relationship to Israel and the "Babylonian Captivity" 536BC explains it. Where is the 2nd witness then? Either Scripture or ancient history sources showing these things were fulfilled during that time.

What's going on in Ezekiel 39 is a most major event. For one, the text says the following.

Ezekiel 39:8 Behold, it is come, and it is done , saith the Lord GOD; this is the day whereof I have spoken.

Compare that to maybe this.

Revelation 16:17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done .

Apparently the vials of wrath in the book of Revelation are tied in with the day of the Lord. Therefore Ezekiel 39:8 could basically be meaning---- Behold, it is come, the day of the Lord, and it is done, saith the Lord GOD; this is the day whereof I have spoken.

This would be attempting to use Scripture to interpret Scripture, thus a 2nd witness. Since I'm assuming you will disagree with me here, where is your 2nd witness showing that you are more likely the one who is correct here rather than me?

Stephen Mendes · Dec 15, 2017

Truth 7t7 said:
'Rule #1 you must respond with a quote of my original post, no one sided debate.

Revelation 20:1-6 represents the Lords Spiritual realm, there is no earthly kingdom with mortal humans seen.

Angel, heaven, devil, Satan, the souls, the dead, God, Christ, your earthly kingdom isn't there, "Next"!

Two At A Time

'

verse 3 says.... 'that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years be fulfilled, and after that he must be loosed for a season'

verse 7 carries on and says.... 'and when the thousand years are ended, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, and shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth....'

So even if he was imprisoned in the 'Lords Spiritual realm'...... the nations that he deceives afterwards are in the four quarters of the earth.

Unless you want to say that there is a duplicate earth with duplicate nations also in the Lords Spiritual realm ...... but then such behavior would not be in keeping with the blissful and happy 'eternal state'

you are doing exactly what amillennialists are famous for .....

Spiritualizing any verse as needed to support what is in reality an absurd and unsupportable position.

Anyway...... I have literally spent too much time in this thread to the neglect of other important matters ..... so forgive me if I cannot respond to any other posts for a while ...... however I see that several pre-millennialists have joined the discussion so I am sure they are well able to carry on the mantle..... with any luck it will still be going in the new year and beyond

Stephen Mendes · Dec 15, 2017

Truth7t7 said:

'final post and your outtahere for a long while?

You law down challenges, the challenge is accepted, on your claim there are thousands of verses that prove your proclaimed 1000 year mortal kingdom on this earth?

Then you run away in the face of this challenge in debate , without response as the challenge awaits

'

Yeah buddy..... I am glad you are taking up the challenge... but now it creates a new dilemma for me ..... I literally don't have the thousands of hours required to go on 'full steam ahead'..... I have bitten off more than I can chew at once.....

Would it help if I say 'sorry' ?

..... or if I promise to come back sometime and resume ?

When I first visited Christian Forums I did not expect it to become an all-consuming lifetime experience..... and I do actually have a life in the 'real world' that I have to go an attend to.

But you have others in here now willing to respond to the verses....

Thanks for taking up the challenge ..... and I hope the others will respond until I can come back

BABerean2 · Dec 15, 2017

Stephen Mendes said:
Revelation is not written Chronologically ...... there are Parenthetic passages inserted all over the place..... and the scene frequently switches between Earth and Heaven...

This is actually quite common in Prophetic vision..... see the passages in Isaiah were both the First and Second coming flow into each other without distinction.

Excellent point.

Therefore, Revelation chapter 20 can also be the "Parenthetic passage".

I have read books by many Dispensationalists, such as Dr. John Walvoord.

At one time I was a deacon in a conservative Bible church.
The doctrine was taught in Sunday-school.
The "Left Behind" series of books and movies sat on the shelf of the Church library about three feet from the "Treasury of David", by Pastor Charles Spurgeon who never accepted Dispensational Theology.

We had a former pastor who was a graduate of Dallas Theological Seminary who taught a Sunday-school class based on the book "Things to Come", by Dr. Dwight Pentecost.
After I read the book, I started seeing big problems with modern Dispensational Theology.

I then started a research project to find out when and who first started teaching the doctrine.
Nobody had bothered to tell those of us sitting in the pews that John Nelson Darby had brought the doctrine to America about the time of the Civil War. It was later incorporated into the notes of the Scofield Reference Bible. Since that time the doctrine has spread like a virus through the modern evangelical Church, especially in America.

Below is a video I produced for YouTube, which reveals the recent history of the doctrine.
Some would like to keep that history hidden from those sitting in the pews.

My work was later confirmed by the DVD "Left Behind or Led Astray", by Good Fight Ministries.

Left Behind or Led Astray?
Good Fight Ministries
Left Behind or Led Astray? | Examining the Origins of the Secret Pre-Tribulation Rapture

It is also confirmed by the following sources.

PROPHETIC DEVELOPMENTS
with particular reference to the early Brethren Movement.
F. Roy Coad (Brethren Historian) pages 10-26
http://brethrenhistory.org/qwicsitePro/php/docsview.php?docid=418

Lacunza, Manuel, “Coming of Messiah in Glory and Majesty“
PDF Files

Origin of the Pretrib Rapture Doctrine
Pastor Tim Warner
http://www.answersinrevelation.org/pretrib_history.pdf

Pretribulationist Revisionism
(Grant Jeffrey’s revision of early Church Posttrib viewpoints)
Pastor Tim Warner
http://www.answersinrevelation.org/Jeffrey.pdf

So yes, I have spent some time reading Dr. Walvoord and others who are promoting the doctrine that John Nelson Darby brought to America.

Here are quotes from Lewis Sperry Chafer and Dr. John Walvoord.

Lewis Sperry Chafer, the first president of Dallas Theological, had the following to say about the difference between Israel and the Church.

“The dispensationalist believes that throughout the ages God is pursuing two distinct purposes: one related to the earth with earthly people and earthly objectives involved which is Judaism; while the other is related to heaven with heavenly people and heavenly objectives involved, which is Christianity.”

Lewis Sperry Chafer, Dispensationalism (Dallas, Seminary Press, 1936), p. 107.

Chafer states that, ‘Israel is an eternal nation, heir to an eternal land, with an eternal kingdom, on which David rules from an eternal throne,’ that is, on earth and distinct from the church who will be in heaven.”

Lewis Sperry Chafer. Systematic Theology. 1975. Vol. IV. pp. 315-323.

John Walvoord, another prominent voice of Dallas Theological stated…

"...it is an article of normative dispensational belief that the boundaries of the land promised to Abraham and his descendants from the Nile to the Euphrates will be literally instituted and that Jesus Christ will return to a literal and theocratic Jewish kingdom centred on a rebuilt temple in Jerusalem. In such a scheme the Church on earth is relegated to the status of a parenthesis.”

John F. Walvoord, The Rapture Question.1979, p. 25

Chafer and Walvoord have gone off the road to Emmaus found in Luke 24:25-27, and have gone into the ditch instead, if they think the New Covenant Church of Jesus Christ is only a "parenthesis" in God's plan dealing with the nation of Israel.

Are you one of many modern Christians who have fallen under the spell of this new doctrine?

.

DavidPT · Dec 15, 2017

Stephen Mendes said:
Truth7t7 said:

'final post and your outtahere for a long while?

You law down challenges, the challenge is accepted, on your claim there are thousands of verses that prove your proclaimed 1000 year mortal kingdom on this earth?

Then you run away in the face of this challenge in debate , without response as the challenge awaits '

Yeah buddy..... I am glad you are taking up the challenge... but now it creates a new dilemma for me ..... I literally don't have the thousands of hours required to go on 'full steam ahead'..... I have bitten off more than I can chew at once.....

Would it help if I say 'sorry' ? ..... or if I promise to come back sometime and resume ?

When I first visited Christian Forums I did not expect it to become an all-consuming lifetime experience..... and I do actually have a life in the 'real world' that I have to go an attend to.

But you have others in here now willing to respond to the verses....

Thanks for taking up the challenge ..... and I hope the others will respond until I can come back

When it comes to Amils though, they are clearly closedminded to anything allegedly proving Premil. Many Amils were actually Premil initially, but then eventually changed positions. On another board I knew of an Amil exactly like that. One time he indicated, that once one has gone from Premil to Amil, there is no turning back to the former, ever. I believe him since I have yet to encounter any hardcore Amils who were initially Premils then went back to Premil eventually. In the event you think you might present something that is going to make a hardcore Amil seriously reconsider Premil, you're only fooling yourself if you think that might happen.

So what is the point in even discussing these things with Amils? There's these readers of these threads to consider, the ones who read but don't participate in these threads. These discussions might help them to decide what seems more likely, Premil or Amil.

Truth7t7 · Dec 15, 2017

"DavidPT said:
thehe weapons are being burned for 7 years, not 7 months. Probably just a typo on your part. You indicate the relationship to Israel and the "Babylonian Captivity" 536BC explains it. Where is the 2nd witness then? Either Scripture or ancient history sources showing these things were fulfilled during that time.

What's going on in Ezekiel 39 is a most major event. For one, the text says the following.

Ezekiel 39:8 Behold, it is come, and it is done , saith the Lord GOD; this is the day whereof I have spoken.

Compare that to maybe this.

Revelation 16:17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done .

Apparently the vials of wrath in the book of Revelation are tied in with the day of the Lord. Therefore Ezekiel 39:8 could basically be meaning---- Behold, it is come, the day of the Lord, and it is done, saith the Lord GOD; this is the day whereof I have spoken.

This would be attempting to use Scripture to interpret Scripture, thus a 2nd witness. Since I'm assuming you will disagree with me here, where is your 2nd witness showing that you are more likely the one who is correct here rather than me?

Disagree, Ezekiel 39:23-29 is after the fact, the battle is finished, Israel returns to Jerusalem from the Babylonian captivity, the chapter in context is self explanatory.

Enjoyed reading your blog posted by Barean, your a millenialist 100%, and are biased for its teaching.

Perhaps this is why you disregard Matthew 25:31-46 that clearly teaches the final judgment, eternal life, eternal kingdom at the return of Jesus.

No 1000 year mortal earthly kingdom to follow.

DavidPT · Dec 15, 2017

Truth7t7 said:
Disagree, Ezekiel 39:23-29 is after the fact, the battle is finished, Israel returns to Jerusalem from the Babylonian captivity, the chapter in context is self explanatory.

You are wanting us to believe you are the one correct here, yet you are failing to provide the 2nd witness which proves you to be correct. Even if some of my conclusions are not entirely correct, which I acknowledge could be the case, I'm still thinking I'm more correct than you are, because for one, the text in Ezekiel 38 places these events in the latter days. Anyone that has been reading the Bible long enough should know good and well what the latter days are referring to. And it for sure isn't referring to a period of time prior to the first coming.

Marilyn C · Dec 15, 2017

Truth7t7 said:
Matthew 25:31-46 shows that at the return of Jesus Christ the final judgment, eternal kingdom takes place.

There will be no earthly 1000 year kingdom to follow the second coming.

Hi Truth,

I see what you are saying and would like to respond. Yes it looks like when Jesus comes and judges the nations (on the earth, note) that some will go into the promised kingdom rule of Christ and some will go into everlasting punishment.

However we know from other scriptures that God sometimes jumps to the end and misses the part in between. The great example we well know is Isa.61: 2.

`To proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord, and the Day of vengeance of our God.` (Isa, 61: 2)

The Lord quotes this scripture in the temple but does not read the last part of the sentence for it was not the time. (Luke 4: 19) Isaiah was giving the overview while in Luke we read the part Jesus was doing while on earth. Thus we see we need to read all of God`s word concerning the topic.

So the people in Matt. 25: 31 - 46, are the nations being judged on earth (with an overview of their destination) and are not all the people throughout time being judged at the great white throne. Big difference there.

Marilyn.

LastSeven · Dec 15, 2017

Marilyn C said:
Hi LastSeven,

You see in your comment that you included Christ`s throne, and as this topic is the millennium I think it is very relevant to ask another where that throne is?

Hope that is clearer, bro. Marilyn.

Alright. Christ's throne is currently at the right hand of the father in heaven. Just as it will be at the right hand of the father on the new earth.

Now your turn.

LastSeven · Dec 15, 2017

Stephen Mendes said:
Hello LastSeven,

I am guilty of using rather 'emotionally charged' language so I apologize for that.

Apology accepted.

Stephen Mendes said:
'I simply don't believe that nation of anti-Christs in the middle east has a special place in God's heart, as you seem to think. ' ...... not just me..... most of 'fundamentalist' Christians ..... and many learned Biblical scholars have come to the same conclusion.

Yes, I know. Most fundamentalist Christians (including my parents, brothers and friends) and many learned Bible scholars also seem unable to understand Romans 9 and Ephesians 2. It's very frustrating.

Stephen Mendes said:
'You may think that's a crazy position to take, but it's not "against" Israel.' .... well it about as 'against' Israel from where I am sitting..... your choice of words is as bad as mine.... rather derogatory from my point of view... for such an important people in the history of our planet.... perhaps.

Those people were only important for their obedience and acceptance of God. Even now, the same people who obey and accept God and his Christ are "important" and are the children of God. Those who reject Christ are broken off.

You can't say those people in the middle east are important to God simply because their ancestors (thousands of years ago) were important to God. That's not logical. There's a reason they were important then, and there's a reason they're no longer important now.

Stephen Mendes said:
There are quite a few passages of scripture that indicates that they do have a 'special place' in God's heart..... but you have not attempted to explain any of them.

I can explain them right now. All those passages that show God's love for Israel are referring to Christ and all those who are in Christ (because Christ is Israel). They certainly do not refer to those who rejected Christ.

Now how about you explain all those passages that clearly state that those who reject Christ are cut off, and that the kingdom was taken away from them. And while you're at it, why don't you explain Ezekiel 16. Not a lot of love in that chapter.

Stephen Mendes said:
I think that your interpretation of Matthew 21:43 is flawed..... but it hangs on the meaning of 'Kingdom of God'.... which would lead into another discussion.

Actually, I think that's exactly the discussion we're having. If we can't agree on what the kingdom is then we'll never agree on any references to Israel or the thousand years.

Stephen Mendes said:
Finally, people have used many passages to support their 'position' ...... and I have used quite a few to support 'mine'.... but what is lacking is them tackling mine..... and me tackling theirs.

For the Bible to be consistent there has to be explanation of all of them in the context of BOTH viewpoints...... but is that actually the case ?

Of course. That's why understanding the meanings of words is required before you can understand the meanings of verses and passages.

And speaking of consistency, your position is inconsistent with scripture in the sense that Jesus told us many times that "no one comes to the father but through me" yet you seem to believe that unbelievers will be saved simply because of their lineage.

Your position is also inconsistent with Paul's statements that "not all who are descended from Israel are Israel" or that we now through Christ have citizenship in Israel.

All those verses make sense when you understand that "Israel" refers not to a group of people based on lineage, but rather a group of people based on faith. It makes no sense at all if we take your position.

Stephen Mendes said:
So why has nobody engaged with my passages?

I am more than willing, if you will do the same. Starting with the examples above.

Marilyn C · Dec 15, 2017

LastSeven said:
Alright. Christ's throne is currently at the right hand of the father in heaven. Just as it will be at the right hand of the father on the new earth.

Now your turn.

Hi LastSeven,

Actually God`s word tells us that Jesus is on His Father`s Throne at the moment.

`To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with me on my throne, as I also overcame and sat down with my Father ON HIS THRONE.` (Rev. 3: 21)

So you think Christ`s own throne, His seat of power is......on the new earth.... may I ask you to have another think, for .....

`...He (God the Father) raised Him (Jesus) from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places, far above all principality and power and might and dominion, and every name that is named, NOT ONLY IN THIS AGE BUT ALSO IN THAT WHICH IS TO COME.` (Eph. 1: 20 & 21)

So we see the Lord will have His own throne, seat of power, far above all. Yes He will rule over the earth and all other realms however His seat of power is above all.

What do you think? Marilyn.

LastSeven · Dec 15, 2017

Stephen Mendes said:
It would seem that there are far more scriptures that have to be 'fiddled with' to make the amillennialist position 'fit'....

While in the pre-millennial position it fits naturally to the bulk of the prophecy and only a small number of verses need 'extra clarification' and further 'research'

I couldn't disagree more. In fact, I would say the exact opposite.

LastSeven · Dec 15, 2017

DavidPT said:
Many Amils were actually Premil initially, but then eventually changed positions. On another board I knew of an Amil exactly like that. One time he indicated, that once one has gone from Premil to Amil, there is no turning back to the former, ever. I believe him since I have yet to encounter any hardcore Amils who were initially Premils then went back to Premil eventually. In the event you think you might present something that is going to make a hardcore Amil seriously reconsider Premil, you're only fooling yourself if you think that might happen.

That's exactly right. And that alone should make you stop and think. What could it be, that would make someone who's been on both sides of the fence, choose the Amil position and never go back?

Must be some strong evidence.

In fact, when I first heard the Amil position I thought it was absurd. Then I started looking into it. Now it seems so obvious.

DavidPT · Dec 15, 2017

LastSeven said:
Alright. Christ's throne is currently at the right hand of the father in heaven. Just as it will be at the right hand of the father on the new earth.

Hebrews 1:13 But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?

What does 'until' mean to you in this verse? Doesn't it indicate an ending to sitting on the right hand of the Father eventually? If it doesn't, that would apparently mean, if Jesus sits on the right hand of God for forever, this part can never get fulfilled----until I make thine enemies thy footstool. And that the 'until' in that verse is pointless.

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