"The Passion Translation": You are Jesus Christ's Equal

Bible Highlighter · Dec 14, 2017

amariselle said:
We are justified to God by faith,

True, but how do you show your faith?

James says,
"Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works." (James 2:18).

You said:
We are justified to God by faith, not works.

Paul says this true.
"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast." (Ephesians 2:8-9).

"For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God." (Romans 4:2).

"Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works," (Romans 4:6).

James says this is not true.
"Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only." (James 2:10).

"Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?"
(James 2:21).

"Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?" (James 2:25).

So either we have a contradiction in the Bible or there is an explanation. For one, there is no mention in the Bible about how we are justified before men by our works. Romans 4:2 does not say that. It is talking about glorying or boasting in regards to our works. There is no glorying or boasting in our works because we all have sinned and because all good that we do is ultimately the Lord working in us. But that does not mean we are not to walk uprightly after we are saved by God's grace. Otherwise, 2 Corinthians 7:1 and a ton of other verses would be non-sense or gibberish.

The way to reconcile Paul vs. James statements is they are talking from two different perspectives. Granted, we come to different conclusions as to what those reasons are.

Paul was talking about "Initial Salvation" in Ephesians 2:8-9 because Ephesians 2:1 says we have been quickened by Jesus Christ and verse 18 says that through Jesus we have access by one Spirit unto the Father. So this is talking about "Initial Salvation" and not "Continued Salvation."

We also see in Romans 4:9-12 argue against "Circumcision Salvationism" as a means of justification and that we are justified by faith in God.

"But neither Titus, who was with me, being a Greek, was compelled to be circumcised." (Galatians 2:3).

"...if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing." (Galatians 5:2).

Paul is talking about "Initial Salvation." For Paul says if we believe on God who raised up Jesus from the dead, etc.

"But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead; Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification. (Romans 4:24-25).

A person first comes to God by believing in Jesus and what He has done for us with His death and resurrection. So Paul here is not talking about Sanctification or Continued Salvation. Paul is talking about "Initial Salvation." Paul is talking about the entrance into God's Kingdom and how we initially get right wth God. This makes sense even more in light of what James says.

James says we are justified by works. But this would be AFTER we are saved by God's grace.

"...God; ... will render to every man according to his deeds: To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;" (Romans 2:5-9).

In James 2, he is talking about respect of persons and how that breaks the Royal Law of Love that still applies to us today. James drives home the point even more by saying that if you have respect of persons, you break all of God's laws and you will have a faith without works that is dead. So James is talking about a the next step or phase in the salvation process. James is not talking about having a belief alone so as to be saved and he is not talking about being justified before men. James 2 does not even hint at such a thing. You have to make that kind of stuff up in order for James 2 to say that.

You said:
And, it is written that without faith it is impossible to please God (Hebrews 11:6),

Yes, a Christian first BELIEVES by faith in Jesus and trusts in Him as their Savior, and THEN... it leads to action and or works and holiness. This is what we see in all of Hebrews 11. Unless you want to continue to focus a laser beam on certain verses out of their context or something.

You said:
and that by the obedience of One (Jesus Christ) we are made righteous. (Romans 5:19)

It's talking about Initial Salvation.

"By whom also we have access by faith into this grace..." (Romans 5:2).

Access is kind of like when you gain entry to something.
I gained access to the computer or I accessed the room through the main door.

Romans 6:1-2 says,
"What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid."

Jason0047 said:
There is no such thing as being justified by works before man.

You said:
Of course there is. We cannot see what is in another person's heart, only God can. Our "good works" (done in faith) should shine before men so that others can see them and glorify God.

No. The word "Justified" means to be declared judicially righteous. Man cannot declare us judicially righteous by our good deeds because he may look up our past records of when we were an unbeliever. Also, any righteousness done in the present does not make us saved before men. Justification is something that deals with salvation exclusively with God.

Romans 5:9 says,
"Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him."

But how does one make sure the blood of Jesus is applied to their life?

By walking in the light as Christ as in the light.

"But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin." (1 John 1:7).

Meaning, one has to walk in Christ's good ways to have the blood of Jesus applied to their life.

You said:
I never said our good works done in faith glorify us. They bring glory to God. We do not boast in them or seek praise and honour for ourselves. Good works done in faith, do, however, show others that we are living out the faith we say we have, as no person can see our hearts, only God can.

When I said, "All our works is God doing the good work through us and this glorifies God and not men."; It is the prove the point to you that Romans 4:2 is not talking about being justified by works before men but it is talking about glorying or boasting. I was not saying that you believe that our faith glorifies us. I was merely telling you what Romans 4:2 says; And it says,

"For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God." (Romans 4:2).

I see nothing in Romans 4 about how we are justified by our works before men vs. not before God.
Yes, we cannot boast about our works before God because we have sinned in our life and we need a Savior. But that does not mean we cannot walk uprightly after we are saved by God's grace.

You said:
Correct. Nor can we save ourselves. Only Christ saves.

While Christ provided salvation as a gift, and while we are given a new heart with new desires and while the Lord does the good work in us, we do have to cooperate with God. A woman who is rescued from off a cliff by a man who pulled her up to safety cannot claim that she saved herself if she reached to grab on to his hand so that he could pull her up.

You said:
As Scripture says, our works do not save us. Our works are a witness and a testament before men that the faith we say we have is genuine and living and not "dead." People cannot see the heart as God can.

Actually, Jesus says we can know false prophets by their fruit (Matthew 7:15-16).

You said:
Yes, our works bring glory to God, not ourselves, and I never said otherwise.

Again, that was not the point I was trying to make. I was trying to say that Romans 4:2 is talking about boasting and or glorying in one's works. It is not talking about being justified before men by our works.

You said:
Yes, there are times we are not to "let our left hand know what our right hand is doing." The point is that we dare not glorify ourselves and we do not glory in our works as though they earn us our salvation. They do not. Salvation is a gift, it is by grace, through faith, not of works, lest any man should boast. We boast in the Lord, not ourselves.

But how can one do this if they are promoting the idea that we can sin and still be saved?
For will not telling others that salvation is nothing in they do lead them into treating God's grace as a license to sin on some level? For example: If people found out there was no more punishment or fines for drinking and driving, what do you think is going to happen? More people are going to drink and drive and they will become cold and uncaring towards others on the road about their sin.

You said:
But human nature is such that it seems right to the "natural man" that we earn salvation in some way. This is why the cross is an "offense." Where is boasting? It is excluded.

Again, nowhere is there boasting in the Soteriology I have gathered from the Scriptures. Men accept Jesus as their Savior and the gospel without any works and then the Lord does the good work within them. So there is no boasting. I would warn believers if they tried to boast in themselves. So you do not know what you are talking about or you are trying to falsely label what I actually believe the Scriptures say.

Now, I do see a problem with the "believe only in Jesus to be saved belief", because if anything, one could boast that they can sin and still be saved on some level (Which is a plan of salvation God cannot agree with because He is holy). God can no more agree with a plan of salvation to let men sin than for pouring rain to not be wet. It would be a violation of God's goodness to do that. God's grace is not a license to sin. Please see Jude 1:4 NIV.

You said:
Paul is writing about salvation being for both the Jew (the circumcision) and the Gentile (the uncircumcision). Both are saved by faith on the Son, and are "one" in Christ Jesus. Exactly. There were Jews coming in and teaching Gentile believers that faith in Christ's finished work and sacrifice was not enough. These Jews added circumcision as a requirement for salvation. Adding even one "work" to Christ's finished work, which is by grace, through faith, cancels grace and Christ indeed becomes of no effect and profits those who teach a works based salvation nothing. It's either grace or it's works, it cannot be both.

I agree that "Initial Salvation" or "Ultimate Salvation" is by God's grace and NOT of works. For "Initial Salvation is the context of Ephesians 2 and Romans 4. Nowhere does Ephesians 2 and Romans 4 say you can chop people's heads off with an axe and still be saved while doing so. Nowhere does Ephesians 2 and Romans 4 say that we can commit adultery and still be saved. On the contrary, there are many other Scriptures that say that sin can separate a believer from God still under the New Covenant.

"He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?" (Hebrews 10:28-29).

For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins," (Hebrews 10:26).

You said:
These works, done in faith, as a result of Christ working in us and leading us, do not happen until we are born again, having been saved, receiving the Holy Spirit. The only requirement for salvation is what Christ has done. If the blood of Christ is not enough, our "right living" certainly is not.

Sorry. The following does not sound like what you are saying,

"His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord." (Matthew 25:21).

"But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin." (1 John 1:7).

"And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him. He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked." (1 John 2:3-6).

"In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother." (1 John 3:10).

You said:
Again, let us beware, lest we "trample the Son of God underfoot" and consider the blood of the covenant an "unclean thing."

Again, this is in context to willfully sinning after we received the knowledge of the truth. Unbelievers do not receive the knowledge of the truth. Also, the context is drawing back in the faith.

"Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him." (Hebrews 10:38). They do this by willfully sinning.

"Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. (Hebrews 3:12-13).

You said:
Exactly. What do you think Jesus is revealing in those Scriptures? That is how high God's righteous standard is, absolute perfection in thought, word and deed, from birth to death. No one has achieved that but Christ. And as it is written, there is no longer any condemnation for those in Christ Jesus.

No. Paul's point in Galatians 5:2 was not about adding works later for salvation as being wrong. Circumcision is a part of the commands of the Old Testament and not the New Testament. Paul essentially says that those who break the moral law in Galatians 5:19-21 will not inherit the Kingdom of God,

"Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God." (Galatians 5:19-21).

You said:
You may want to read Galatians 5 again. I posted it earlier. Paul specifically condemns the idea that we begin in the Spirit and are then perfected by the flesh.

No. You need to read Galatians 5 again.

It says,
"they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts." (Galatians 5:24).

But it appears by what you said, that you really do not believe that. For do you really believe that they that are Christ's have crucified the affections and lusts? By what you said so far, I don't see how that is possible.

"For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death."
(Romans 8:2).

How many laws are in Romans 8:2?

There are two.

Law #1. - The Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus.
Law #2. - The Law of Sin and Death.

Keeping Law #1 makes us free from Law #2.
See Romans 8:2.

Also, Romans 8:3 says,

"For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:" (Romans 8:3).

Which Law did Jesus condemn?

(a) All Law?
(b) Old Covenant Law?
(c) New Covenant Law?

The only law that existed before Christ came was Old Covenant Law. The New Covenant commands were still being given by Jesus and His followers with the NT Scriptures. If Jesus and His followers condemned the idea of following God's commands, they would have not given any new commands for us under the New Testament. But there are actually more commands in the New Testament than the Old Testament and many of them ARE attached with consequences to one's soul in the after life if they disobey them and do not repent. Note: When I say "repent," I am talking about "Biblical Repentance" whereby someone seeks forgiveness with God by way of prayer and they forsake their sin.

Also, the righteousness of the Law is to be fulfilled in us, as well.

For Romans 8:4 says,
"That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit."

What is the righteousness of the Law that is to be fulfilled?

Romans 13:8-10 gives us a clue. It says that if we love our neighbor we will not covet, steal, murder, etc. This is the "righteousness of the Law." It is the Moral Law. Ceremonial Laws from the Old Covenant like the Saturday Sabbath, circumcision, the dietary laws, animal sacrifices, etc. have been abrogated when Christ died upon the cross. Only God's Eternal Moral Laws (Since after the Fall of Adam) still remain.

Then there is Romans 8:5. It says,
"For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit." (Romans 8:5).

Your belief says that you can sin and still be saved. Yet, Romans 8:5 says they that are of the flesh do mind the things of the flesh. The things of the flesh is sin. The things that are of the Spirit are the fruits of the Spirit like love, joy, peace, etc. This is the righteousness of God after we are forgiven of our sins by Jesus when we accepted Him as our Savior.

You said:
No one has done enough good or stopped doing enough evil to be saved, so why should anyone believe we must do enough good or stop doing enough evil to stay saved? We have not earned salvation by our works and we do not keep it by our works. If that were the case, not one single person has been or ever will, be saved. And if it were possible to be saved by works, then we have no need of a Savior.

Jesus says,
"Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it." (Matthew 7:14).

Also, it would be turning God's grace into a license to sin or do evil.
Morally, it is not correct and you know it.
For would not God have to agree with your idea that you can sin and still be saved?
Can God agree with sin?
Surely not.

You said:
We "rest" in Christ and His once and for all and all sufficient sacrifice for sin.

I am sorry. That is not how it works. Belief alone in Jesus while ignoring sin will not work out at all.
Jesus says to certain believers to depart from Him because they worked iniquity or sin.

You said:
Again, Galatians 5 is clear. There is no such thing a being saved by grace and then earning/keeping that salvation by works.

Actually, Galatians 5 proves that we are saved by God's grace and then we continue to keep our salvation by our good deeds because it says that the unrighteous will not inherit the Kingdom of God and lists actual specific sins that you cannot do.

John also provides a similar list in Revelation 21:8 but he says that these sins will cause a person to be cast into the Lake of Fire. In fact, John says all liars will have their part in the Lake of Fire. John mentions nothing about a group of believers who can be liars and miss out on the Lake of Fire. Revelation 21:8 says ALL liars will have their part in the Lake of Fire.

You said:
I've addressed James, repeatedly. James is written to already saved believers to chastise and correct them in their conduct.

How can a dead faith save anyone?
Can a demon belief save?

James says very clearly says,
"Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls." (James 1:21).

Jason0047 said:
"They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate." (Titus 1:16).

You said:
Where does it say they will lose salvation? If a child is disobedient toward their parents, do they stop being their parent's child? It is written that God chastises His children, not that he damns them to hell for all eternity.

So a person can be saved and deny God? Okay. That does not sound like faith in God to me.

Also, Jude 1:4 ties in denying God by a lack of works by saying,
"For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ."

It should be no surprise to you that Scripture says these things.

For Jesus Himself said,
"And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?" (Luke 6:46).

1 Timothy 6:3-4 says,
"If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; He is proud, knowing nothing..."

James 4:6 says,
"God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble."

You said:
Indeed? So, where does it say he is damned for all eternity, having lost his salvation and been disowned and forsaken by God?

"If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema Maranatha."

Anathema means accursed.

So when Jesus says if you love me, keep my commandments He is telling us how we are to love Him. Then if we are to tie in what Paul says about not loving Jesus, he says those who do not love Jesus are accursed. Jesus says if you love me, keep my commandments. That is how we are to love Jesus. Also, how can one enter God's Kingdom if they hate God and do not love Jesus. It makes no sense.

You said:
Grace, exactly. "God have mercy on me a sinner!" We have nothing to boast in, only the Lord. All our "righteous deeds" are as "filthy rags."

So you are saying that sinning is the humble position? That doing good is the proud position? Indeed it is true that OUR righteous deeds are filthy rags but that is not the kind of works a believer does. A believer allows Jesus or God to do the good work within their lives. God flows through them. For only God alone is good. All good a believer does is from God. So there is no "our righteous deeds" if we submit to God in what He wants to work through our life. There is no boasting if it is God who works in us.

Oh, and the Parable of the Tax Collector and the Pharisee is not a case for a sin and still be saved gospel or belief. Yes, God's grace and mercy is there for us if we honestly stumble into sin and we confess it. But the problem here is that the Pharisee did not cry out unto God seeking forgiveness with God like the Tax Collector did. The Pharisee also should have tried and helped the Tax Collector to overcome his sin by praying for him and by showing him those Scriptures that can help him to stop sinning. But he didn't do that.

I mean, why do you think Jesus condemned the Pharisees?
Was it because they did not believe in a sin and still be saved belief?
No, of course not.

Jesus condemned the Pharisees because they ignored the weightier matters of the Law like justice, faith, mercy and love (See Matthew 23:23 cf. Luke 11:42).

You said:
What does it mean to "obey" Him? It is written that only those who do "the will of the Father" will be saved. What does Jesus tell us the "will of the Father is?"

"God's will is for you to be holy," (1 Thessalonians 4:3) (NLT).

"For this is the will of God, even your sanctification,"(1 Thessalonians 4:3) (KJV).

You said:
Who is Holy, but God? Who is righteous apart from Him? No one.

You miss the point of Hebrews 12:14.
It says follow AFTER holiness, of which no man shall see the Lord.
So it appears you simply do not like what this verse says.
Oh, and yes. All holiness and righteousness is by God.
As I said before, any good a true believer does is by the power of the Lord working in them.

You said:
We love because He first loved us.

How can one say they love God and yet also sin and be unfaithful against Him?
Does such a concept work in the real world?
Can men expect their spouse to love them if they are unfaithful with them?
Surely not.

Bible Highlighter · Dec 14, 2017

Doug Melven said:
In Philippians 3:9 Paul said he wanted to be found in Christ, not having his own righteousness, which is of the law, but the righteousness of God which is by faith.
There are only 2 types of righteousness: ours and God's.
There is not a 3rd type of righteousness.
Our physical bodies do not have this righteousness.
Our soul (mind, will and emotions) does not have this righteousness.
Our spirit, which is one with God, (1 Corinthians 6:17) does have this righteousness.
We are in Christ, the Beloved (Ephesians 1:6-7) therefore as God sees Christ, He sees us.

Again, there is not a 3rd type of righteousness. Please show a verse that states there is a righteousness, that is not ours or Gods.

Paul is talking about the Law of Moses and not the Laws or Commands from Jesus and His followers.
We also do not do "our own righteousness", either.
It is God who works in the true believer.
So there is no boasting.
A sin and still be saved gospel is far worse even than even a works alone based salvation.
At least, they are striving to be good.
But yes. It is true. A works alone type belief is also false.

Anyways, we are initially saved and ultimately saved God's grace, but that does not mean works or holiness do not also play a part in the next phase or step in the salvation process. Good works accompany God's grace.

See Ephesians 5:25-27 and Titus 2:14.

Doug Melven · Dec 14, 2017

Jason0047 said:
On the contrary, there are many other Scriptures that say that sin can separate a believer from God still under the New Covenant.

There are verses that say those that sin cannot inherit the kingdom of God. There are no verses that say a believer will be separated from God by there sin.
Sin separating us from God is an OT concept. Isaiah 59:2
But Jesus put sin away. John 1:29. Hebrews 9:26
God hates sin, those who love God hate sin.
If our sin separated us from God, no one would get eternal life.
As much as I hate sin, I still sin. The new man does not sin. My soul is being transformed, but it is not new yet. My body will be transformed when Jesus comes back, it is not new yet. It is my flesh that sins.
My spirit has been sealed by the Holy Spirit. Ephesians 1:14
Once you are born again, you are a child of God. Sinning will not change that.

These verses do not say a person who is a child of God after committing a sin is no longer a child of God.

Jason0047 said:
"He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?" (Hebrews 10:28-29).

For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins," (Hebrews 10:26).

A child of God cannot commit these sins, if he did and he lost his salvation, he would be lost forever.
The concept of losing salvation and regaining it is not found in the Bible. Hebrews 6:4-6 Look at the word "impossible"

Jason0047 said:
Paul is talking about the Law of Moses and not the Laws or Commands from Jesus and His followers.
We also do not do "our own righteousness", either.
It is God who works in the true believer.
So there is no boasting.
A sin and still be saved gospel is far worse even than even a works alone based salvation.
At least, they are striving to be good.
But yes. It is true. A works alone type belief is also false.

Anyways, we are initially saved and ultimately saved God's grace, but that does not mean works or holiness do not also play a part in the next phase or step in the salvation process. Good works accompany God's grace.

This reply in no way addresses what I was talking about.

amariselle · Dec 14, 2017

Jason0047 said:
True, but how do you show your faith?

James says,
"Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works." (James 2:18).

Paul says this true.
"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast." (Ephesians 2:8-9).

"For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God." (Romans 4:2).

"Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works," (Romans 4:6).

James says this is not true.
"Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only." (James 2:10).

"Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?"
(James 2:21).

"Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?" (James 2:25).

So either we have a contradiction in the Bible or there is an explanation. For one, there is no mention in the Bible about how we are justified before men by our works. Romans 4:2 does not say that. It is talking about glorying or boasting in regards to our works. There is no glorying or boasting in our works because we all have sinned and because all good that we do is ultimately the Lord working in us. But that does not mean we are not to walk uprightly after we are saved by God's grace. Otherwise, 2 Corinthians 7:1 and a ton of other verses would be non-sense or gibberish.

The way to reconcile Paul vs. James statements is they are talking from two different perspectives. Granted, we come to different conclusions as to what those reasons are.

Paul was talking about "Initial Salvation" in Ephesians 2:8-9 because Ephesians 2:1 says we have been quickened by Jesus Christ and verse 18 says that through Jesus we have access by one Spirit unto the Father. So this is talking about "Initial Salvation" and not "Continued Salvation."

We also see in Romans 4:9-12 argue against "Circumcision Salvationism" as a means of justification and that we are justified by faith in God.

"But neither Titus, who was with me, being a Greek, was compelled to be circumcised." (Galatians 2:3).

"...if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing." (Galatians 5:2).

Paul is talking about "Initial Salvation." For Paul says if we believe on God who raised up Jesus from the dead, etc.

"But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead; Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification. (Romans 4:24-25).

A person first comes to God by believing in Jesus and what He has done for us with His death and resurrection. So Paul here is not talking about Sanctification or Continued Salvation. Paul is talking about "Initial Salvation." Paul is talking about the entrance into God's Kingdom and how we initially get right wth God. This makes sense even more in light of what James says.

James says we are justified by works. But this would be AFTER we are saved by God's grace.

"...God; ... will render to every man according to his deeds: To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;" (Romans 2:5-9).

In James 2, he is talking about respect of persons and how that breaks the Royal Law of Love that still applies to us today. James drives home the point even more by saying that if you have respect of persons, you break all of God's laws and you will have a faith without works that is dead. So James is talking about a the next step or phase in the salvation process. James is not talking about having a belief alone so as to be saved and he is not talking about being justified before men. James 2 does not even hint at such a thing. You have to make that kind of stuff up in order for James 2 to say that.

Yes, a Christian first BELIEVES by faith in Jesus and trusts in Him as their Savior, and THEN... it leads to action and or works and holiness. This is what we see in all of Hebrews 11. Unless you want to continue to focus a laser beam on certain verses out of their context or something.

It's talking about Initial Salvation.

"By whom also we have access by faith into this grace..." (Romans 5:2).

Access is kind of like when you gain entry to something.
I gained access to the computer or I accessed the room through the main door.

Romans 6:1-2 says,
"What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid."

No. The word "Justified" means to be declared judicially righteous. Man cannot declare us judicially righteous by our good deeds because he may look up our past records of when we were an unbeliever. Also, any righteousness done in the present does not make us saved before men. Justification is something that deals with salvation exclusively with God.

Romans 5:9 says,
"Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him."

But how does one make sure the blood of Jesus is applied to their life?

By walking in the light as Christ as in the light.

"But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin." (1 John 1:7).

Meaning, one has to walk in Christ's good ways to have the blood of Jesus applied to their life.

When I said, "All our works is God doing the good work through us and this glorifies God and not men."; It is the prove the point to you that Romans 4:2 is not talking about being justified by works before men but it is talking about glorying or boasting. I was not saying that you believe that our faith glorifies us. I was merely telling you what Romans 4:2 says; And it says,

"For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God." (Romans 4:2).

I see nothing in Romans 4 about how we are justified by our works before men vs. not before God.
Yes, we cannot boast about our works before God because we have sinned in our life and we need a Savior. But that does not mean we cannot walk uprightly after we are saved by God's grace.

While Christ provided salvation as a gift, and while we are given a new heart with new desires and while the Lord does the good work in us, we do have to cooperate with God. A woman who is rescued from off a cliff by a man who pulled her up to safety cannot claim that she saved herself if she reached to grab on to his hand so that he could pull her up.

Actually, Jesus says we can know false prophets by their fruit (Matthew 7:15-16).

Again, that was not the point I was trying to make. I was trying to say that Romans 4:2 is talking about boasting and or glorying in one's works. It is not talking about being justified before men by our works.

But how can one do this if they are promoting the idea that we can sin and still be saved?
For will not telling others that salvation is nothing in they do lead them into treating God's grace as a license to sin on some level? For example: If people found out there was no more punishment or fines for drinking and driving, what do you think is going to happen? More people are going to drink and drive and they will become cold and uncaring towards others on the road about their sin.

Again, nowhere is there boasting in the Soteriology I have gathered from the Scriptures. Men accept Jesus as their Savior and the gospel without any works and then the Lord does the good work within them. So there is no boasting. I would warn believers if they tried to boast in themselves. So you do not know what you are talking about or you are trying to falsely label what I actually believe the Scriptures say.

Now, I do see a problem with the "believe only in Jesus to be saved belief", because if anything, one could boast that they can sin and still be saved on some level (Which is a plan of salvation God cannot agree with because He is holy). God can no more agree with a plan of salvation to let men sin than for pouring rain to not be wet. It would be a violation of God's goodness to do that. God's grace is not a license to sin. Please see Jude 1:4 NIV.

I agree that "Initial Salvation" or "Ultimate Salvation" is by God's grace and NOT of works. For "Initial Salvation is the context of Ephesians 2 and Romans 4. Nowhere does Ephesians 2 and Romans 4 say you can chop people's heads off with an axe and still be saved while doing so. Nowhere does Ephesians 2 and Romans 4 say that we can commit adultery and still be saved. On the contrary, there are many other Scriptures that say that sin can separate a believer from God still under the New Covenant.

"He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?" (Hebrews 10:28-29).

For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins," (Hebrews 10:26).

Sorry. The following does not sound like what you are saying,

"His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord." (Matthew 25:21).

"But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin." (1 John 1:7).

"And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him. He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked." (1 John 2:3-6).

"In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother." (1 John 3:10).

Again, this is in context to willfully sinning after we received the knowledge of the truth. Unbelievers do not receive the knowledge of the truth. Also, the context is drawing back in the faith.

"Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him." (Hebrews 10:38). They do this by willfully sinning.

"Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. (Hebrews 3:12-13).

No. Paul's point in Galatians 5:2 was not about adding works later for salvation as being wrong. Circumcision is a part of the commands of the Old Testament and not the New Testament. Paul essentially says that those who break the moral law in Galatians 5:19-21 will not inherit the Kingdom of God,

"Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God." (Galatians 5:19-21).

No. You need to read Galatians 5 again.

It says,
"they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts." (Galatians 5:24).

But it appears by what you said, that you really do not believe that. For do you really believe that they that are Christ's have crucified the affections and lusts? By what you said so far, I don't see how that is possible.

"For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death."
(Romans 8:2).

How many laws are in Romans 8:2?

There are two.

Law #1. - The Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus.
Law #2. - The Law of Sin and Death.

Keeping Law #1 makes us free from Law #2.
See Romans 8:2.

Also, Romans 8:3 says,

"For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:" (Romans 8:3).

Which Law did Jesus condemn?

(a) All Law?
(b) Old Covenant Law?
(c) New Covenant Law?

The only law that existed before Christ came was Old Covenant Law. The New Covenant commands were still being given by Jesus and His followers with the NT Scriptures. If Jesus and His followers condemned the idea of following God's commands, they would have not given any new commands for us under the New Testament. But there are actually more commands in the New Testament than the Old Testament and many of them ARE attached with consequences to one's soul in the after life if they disobey them and do not repent. Note: When I say "repent," I am talking about "Biblical Repentance" whereby someone seeks forgiveness with God by way of prayer and they forsake their sin.

Also, the righteousness of the Law is to be fulfilled in us, as well.

For Romans 8:4 says,
"That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit."

What is the righteousness of the Law that is to be fulfilled?

Romans 13:8-10 gives us a clue. It says that if we love our neighbor we will not covet, steal, murder, etc. This is the "righteousness of the Law." It is the Moral Law. Ceremonial Laws from the Old Covenant like the Saturday Sabbath, circumcision, the dietary laws, animal sacrifices, etc. have been abrogated when Christ died upon the cross. Only God's Eternal Moral Laws (Since after the Fall of Adam) still remain.

Then there is Romans 8:5. It says,
"For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit." (Romans 8:5).

Your belief says that you can sin and still be saved. Yet, Romans 8:5 says they that are of the flesh do mind the things of the flesh. The things of the flesh is sin. The things that are of the Spirit are the fruits of the Spirit like love, joy, peace, etc. This is the righteousness of God after we are forgiven of our sins by Jesus when we accepted Him as our Savior.

Jesus says,
"Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it." (Matthew 7:14).

Also, it would be turning God's grace into a license to sin or do evil.
Morally, it is not correct and you know it.
For would not God have to agree with your idea that you can sin and still be saved?
Can God agree with sin?
Surely not.

I am sorry. That is not how it works. Belief alone in Jesus while ignoring sin will not work out at all.
Jesus says to certain believers to depart from Him because they worked iniquity or sin.

Actually, Galatians 5 proves that we are saved by God's grace and then we continue to keep our salvation by our good deeds because it says that the unrighteous will not inherit the Kingdom of God and lists actual specific sins that you cannot do.

John also provides a similar list in Revelation 21:8 but he says that these sins will cause a person to be cast into the Lake of Fire. In fact, John says all liars will have their part in the Lake of Fire. John mentions nothing about a group of believers who can be liars and miss out on the Lake of Fire. Revelation 21:8 says ALL liars will have their part in the Lake of Fire.

How can a dead faith save anyone?
Can a demon belief save?

James says very clearly says,
"Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls." (James 1:21).

So a person can be saved and deny God? Okay. That does not sound like faith in God to me.

Also, Jude 1:4 ties in denying God by a lack of works by saying,
"For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ."

It should be no surprise to you that Scripture says these things.

For Jesus Himself said,
"And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?" (Luke 6:46).

1 Timothy 6:3-4 says,
"If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; He is proud, knowing nothing..."

James 4:6 says,
"God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble."

"If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema Maranatha."

Anathema means accursed.

So when Jesus says if you love me, keep my commandments He is telling us how we are to love Him. Then if we are to tie in what Paul says about not loving Jesus, he says those who do not love Jesus are accursed. Jesus says if you love me, keep my commandments. That is how we are to love Jesus. Also, how can one enter God's Kingdom if they hate God and do not love Jesus. It makes no sense.

So you are saying that sinning is the humble position? That doing good is the proud position? Indeed it is true that OUR righteous deeds are filthy rags but that is not the kind of works a believer does. A believer allows Jesus or God to do the good work within their lives. God flows through them. For only God alone is good. All good a believer does is from God. So there is no "our righteous deeds" if we submit to God in what He wants to work through our life. There is no boasting if it is God who works in us.

Oh, and the Parable of the Tax Collector and the Pharisee is not a case for a sin and still be saved gospel or belief. Yes, God's grace and mercy is there for us if we honestly stumble into sin and we confess it. But the problem here is that the Pharisee did not cry out unto God seeking forgiveness with God like the Tax Collector did. The Pharisee also should have tried and helped the Tax Collector to overcome his sin by praying for him and by showing him those Scriptures that can help him to stop sinning. But he didn't do that.

I mean, why do you think Jesus condemned the Pharisees?
Was it because they did not believe in a sin and still be saved belief?
No, of course not.

Jesus condemned the Pharisees because they ignored the weightier matters of the Law like justice, faith, mercy and love (See Matthew 23:23 cf. Luke 11:42).

"God's will is for you to be holy," (1 Thessalonians 4:3) (NLT).

"For this is the will of God, even your sanctification,"(1 Thessalonians 4:3) (KJV).

You miss the point of Hebrews 12:14.
It says follow AFTER holiness, of which no man shall see the Lord.
So it appears you simply do not like what this verse says.
Oh, and yes. All holiness and righteousness is by God.
As I said before, any good a true believer does is by the power of the Lord working in them.

How can one say they love God and yet also sin and be unfaithful against Him?
Does such a concept work in the real world?
Can men expect their spouse to love them if they are unfaithful with them?
Surely not.

As I said, I have gone on with this long enough. I'll stick with Scripture, which assures me I am not and cannot earn my salvation or work to keep it.

Christ did not fail in what He came to do, and His sacrifice really is enough. In fact, He is our only hope of Salvation. There is no other name given among men by which we are saved.

God bless.

amariselle · Dec 14, 2017

Jason0047 said:
True, but how do you show your faith?

James says,
"Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works." (James 2:18).

Paul says this true.
"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast." (Ephesians 2:8-9).

"For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God." (Romans 4:2).

"Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works," (Romans 4:6).

James says this is not true.
"Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only." (James 2:10).

"Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?"
(James 2:21).

"Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?" (James 2:25).

So either we have a contradiction in the Bible or there is an explanation. For one, there is no mention in the Bible about how we are justified before men by our works. Romans 4:2 does not say that. It is talking about glorying or boasting in regards to our works. There is no glorying or boasting in our works because we all have sinned and because all good that we do is ultimately the Lord working in us. But that does not mean we are not to walk uprightly after we are saved by God's grace. Otherwise, 2 Corinthians 7:1 and a ton of other verses would be non-sense or gibberish.

The way to reconcile Paul vs. James statements is they are talking from two different perspectives. Granted, we come to different conclusions as to what those reasons are.

Paul was talking about "Initial Salvation" in Ephesians 2:8-9 because Ephesians 2:1 says we have been quickened by Jesus Christ and verse 18 says that through Jesus we have access by one Spirit unto the Father. So this is talking about "Initial Salvation" and not "Continued Salvation."

We also see in Romans 4:9-12 argue against "Circumcision Salvationism" as a means of justification and that we are justified by faith in God.

"But neither Titus, who was with me, being a Greek, was compelled to be circumcised." (Galatians 2:3).

"...if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing." (Galatians 5:2).

Paul is talking about "Initial Salvation." For Paul says if we believe on God who raised up Jesus from the dead, etc.

"But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead; Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification. (Romans 4:24-25).

A person first comes to God by believing in Jesus and what He has done for us with His death and resurrection. So Paul here is not talking about Sanctification or Continued Salvation. Paul is talking about "Initial Salvation." Paul is talking about the entrance into God's Kingdom and how we initially get right wth God. This makes sense even more in light of what James says.

James says we are justified by works. But this would be AFTER we are saved by God's grace.

"...God; ... will render to every man according to his deeds: To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;" (Romans 2:5-9).

In James 2, he is talking about respect of persons and how that breaks the Royal Law of Love that still applies to us today. James drives home the point even more by saying that if you have respect of persons, you break all of God's laws and you will have a faith without works that is dead. So James is talking about a the next step or phase in the salvation process. James is not talking about having a belief alone so as to be saved and he is not talking about being justified before men. James 2 does not even hint at such a thing. You have to make that kind of stuff up in order for James 2 to say that.

Yes, a Christian first BELIEVES by faith in Jesus and trusts in Him as their Savior, and THEN... it leads to action and or works and holiness. This is what we see in all of Hebrews 11. Unless you want to continue to focus a laser beam on certain verses out of their context or something.

It's talking about Initial Salvation.

"By whom also we have access by faith into this grace..." (Romans 5:2).

Access is kind of like when you gain entry to something.
I gained access to the computer or I accessed the room through the main door.

Romans 6:1-2 says,
"What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid."

No. The word "Justified" means to be declared judicially righteous. Man cannot declare us judicially righteous by our good deeds because he may look up our past records of when we were an unbeliever. Also, any righteousness done in the present does not make us saved before men. Justification is something that deals with salvation exclusively with God.

Romans 5:9 says,
"Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him."

But how does one make sure the blood of Jesus is applied to their life?

By walking in the light as Christ as in the light.

"But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin." (1 John 1:7).

Meaning, one has to walk in Christ's good ways to have the blood of Jesus applied to their life.

When I said, "All our works is God doing the good work through us and this glorifies God and not men."; It is the prove the point to you that Romans 4:2 is not talking about being justified by works before men but it is talking about glorying or boasting. I was not saying that you believe that our faith glorifies us. I was merely telling you what Romans 4:2 says; And it says,

"For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God." (Romans 4:2).

I see nothing in Romans 4 about how we are justified by our works before men vs. not before God.
Yes, we cannot boast about our works before God because we have sinned in our life and we need a Savior. But that does not mean we cannot walk uprightly after we are saved by God's grace.

While Christ provided salvation as a gift, and while we are given a new heart with new desires and while the Lord does the good work in us, we do have to cooperate with God. A woman who is rescued from off a cliff by a man who pulled her up to safety cannot claim that she saved herself if she reached to grab on to his hand so that he could pull her up.

Actually, Jesus says we can know false prophets by their fruit (Matthew 7:15-16).

Again, that was not the point I was trying to make. I was trying to say that Romans 4:2 is talking about boasting and or glorying in one's works. It is not talking about being justified before men by our works.

But how can one do this if they are promoting the idea that we can sin and still be saved?
For will not telling others that salvation is nothing in they do lead them into treating God's grace as a license to sin on some level? For example: If people found out there was no more punishment or fines for drinking and driving, what do you think is going to happen? More people are going to drink and drive and they will become cold and uncaring towards others on the road about their sin.

Again, nowhere is there boasting in the Soteriology I have gathered from the Scriptures. Men accept Jesus as their Savior and the gospel without any works and then the Lord does the good work within them. So there is no boasting. I would warn believers if they tried to boast in themselves. So you do not know what you are talking about or you are trying to falsely label what I actually believe the Scriptures say.

Now, I do see a problem with the "believe only in Jesus to be saved belief", because if anything, one could boast that they can sin and still be saved on some level (Which is a plan of salvation God cannot agree with because He is holy). God can no more agree with a plan of salvation to let men sin than for pouring rain to not be wet. It would be a violation of God's goodness to do that. God's grace is not a license to sin. Please see Jude 1:4 NIV.

I agree that "Initial Salvation" or "Ultimate Salvation" is by God's grace and NOT of works. For "Initial Salvation is the context of Ephesians 2 and Romans 4. Nowhere does Ephesians 2 and Romans 4 say you can chop people's heads off with an axe and still be saved while doing so. Nowhere does Ephesians 2 and Romans 4 say that we can commit adultery and still be saved. On the contrary, there are many other Scriptures that say that sin can separate a believer from God still under the New Covenant.

"He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?" (Hebrews 10:28-29).

For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins," (Hebrews 10:26).

Sorry. The following does not sound like what you are saying,

"His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord." (Matthew 25:21).

"But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin." (1 John 1:7).

"And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him. He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked." (1 John 2:3-6).

"In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother." (1 John 3:10).

Again, this is in context to willfully sinning after we received the knowledge of the truth. Unbelievers do not receive the knowledge of the truth. Also, the context is drawing back in the faith.

"Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him." (Hebrews 10:38). They do this by willfully sinning.

"Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. (Hebrews 3:12-13).

No. Paul's point in Galatians 5:2 was not about adding works later for salvation as being wrong. Circumcision is a part of the commands of the Old Testament and not the New Testament. Paul essentially says that those who break the moral law in Galatians 5:19-21 will not inherit the Kingdom of God,

"Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God." (Galatians 5:19-21).

No. You need to read Galatians 5 again.

It says,
"they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts." (Galatians 5:24).

But it appears by what you said, that you really do not believe that. For do you really believe that they that are Christ's have crucified the affections and lusts? By what you said so far, I don't see how that is possible.

"For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death."
(Romans 8:2).

How many laws are in Romans 8:2?

There are two.

Law #1. - The Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus.
Law #2. - The Law of Sin and Death.

Keeping Law #1 makes us free from Law #2.
See Romans 8:2.

Also, Romans 8:3 says,

"For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:" (Romans 8:3).

Which Law did Jesus condemn?

(a) All Law?
(b) Old Covenant Law?
(c) New Covenant Law?

The only law that existed before Christ came was Old Covenant Law. The New Covenant commands were still being given by Jesus and His followers with the NT Scriptures. If Jesus and His followers condemned the idea of following God's commands, they would have not given any new commands for us under the New Testament. But there are actually more commands in the New Testament than the Old Testament and many of them ARE attached with consequences to one's soul in the after life if they disobey them and do not repent. Note: When I say "repent," I am talking about "Biblical Repentance" whereby someone seeks forgiveness with God by way of prayer and they forsake their sin.

Also, the righteousness of the Law is to be fulfilled in us, as well.

For Romans 8:4 says,
"That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit."

What is the righteousness of the Law that is to be fulfilled?

Romans 13:8-10 gives us a clue. It says that if we love our neighbor we will not covet, steal, murder, etc. This is the "righteousness of the Law." It is the Moral Law. Ceremonial Laws from the Old Covenant like the Saturday Sabbath, circumcision, the dietary laws, animal sacrifices, etc. have been abrogated when Christ died upon the cross. Only God's Eternal Moral Laws (Since after the Fall of Adam) still remain.

Then there is Romans 8:5. It says,
"For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit." (Romans 8:5).

Your belief says that you can sin and still be saved. Yet, Romans 8:5 says they that are of the flesh do mind the things of the flesh. The things of the flesh is sin. The things that are of the Spirit are the fruits of the Spirit like love, joy, peace, etc. This is the righteousness of God after we are forgiven of our sins by Jesus when we accepted Him as our Savior.

Jesus says,
"Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it." (Matthew 7:14).

Also, it would be turning God's grace into a license to sin or do evil.
Morally, it is not correct and you know it.
For would not God have to agree with your idea that you can sin and still be saved?
Can God agree with sin?
Surely not.

I am sorry. That is not how it works. Belief alone in Jesus while ignoring sin will not work out at all.
Jesus says to certain believers to depart from Him because they worked iniquity or sin.

Actually, Galatians 5 proves that we are saved by God's grace and then we continue to keep our salvation by our good deeds because it says that the unrighteous will not inherit the Kingdom of God and lists actual specific sins that you cannot do.

John also provides a similar list in Revelation 21:8 but he says that these sins will cause a person to be cast into the Lake of Fire. In fact, John says all liars will have their part in the Lake of Fire. John mentions nothing about a group of believers who can be liars and miss out on the Lake of Fire. Revelation 21:8 says ALL liars will have their part in the Lake of Fire.

How can a dead faith save anyone?
Can a demon belief save?

James says very clearly says,
"Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls." (James 1:21).

So a person can be saved and deny God? Okay. That does not sound like faith in God to me.

Also, Jude 1:4 ties in denying God by a lack of works by saying,
"For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ."

It should be no surprise to you that Scripture says these things.

For Jesus Himself said,
"And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?" (Luke 6:46).

1 Timothy 6:3-4 says,
"If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; He is proud, knowing nothing..."

James 4:6 says,
"God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble."

"If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema Maranatha."

Anathema means accursed.

So when Jesus says if you love me, keep my commandments He is telling us how we are to love Him. Then if we are to tie in what Paul says about not loving Jesus, he says those who do not love Jesus are accursed. Jesus says if you love me, keep my commandments. That is how we are to love Jesus. Also, how can one enter God's Kingdom if they hate God and do not love Jesus. It makes no sense.

So you are saying that sinning is the humble position? That doing good is the proud position? Indeed it is true that OUR righteous deeds are filthy rags but that is not the kind of works a believer does. A believer allows Jesus or God to do the good work within their lives. God flows through them. For only God alone is good. All good a believer does is from God. So there is no "our righteous deeds" if we submit to God in what He wants to work through our life. There is no boasting if it is God who works in us.

Oh, and the Parable of the Tax Collector and the Pharisee is not a case for a sin and still be saved gospel or belief. Yes, God's grace and mercy is there for us if we honestly stumble into sin and we confess it. But the problem here is that the Pharisee did not cry out unto God seeking forgiveness with God like the Tax Collector did. The Pharisee also should have tried and helped the Tax Collector to overcome his sin by praying for him and by showing him those Scriptures that can help him to stop sinning. But he didn't do that.

I mean, why do you think Jesus condemned the Pharisees?
Was it because they did not believe in a sin and still be saved belief?
No, of course not.

Jesus condemned the Pharisees because they ignored the weightier matters of the Law like justice, faith, mercy and love (See Matthew 23:23 cf. Luke 11:42).

"God's will is for you to be holy," (1 Thessalonians 4:3) (NLT).

"For this is the will of God, even your sanctification,"(1 Thessalonians 4:3) (KJV).

You miss the point of Hebrews 12:14.
It says follow AFTER holiness, of which no man shall see the Lord.
So it appears you simply do not like what this verse says.
Oh, and yes. All holiness and righteousness is by God.
As I said before, any good a true believer does is by the power of the Lord working in them.

How can one say they love God and yet also sin and be unfaithful against Him?
Does such a concept work in the real world?
Can men expect their spouse to love them if they are unfaithful with them?
Surely not.

Also, you should know that nowhere in Scripture will you find anything about "initial salvation" and "continued salvation." Salvation is in Christ, period, it is found nowhere else. It is not Biblical to tell people that they are "initially saved" by Christ but then "continually saved" by their works.

And the "willful sin" is rejecting Christ, trampling the Son of God underfoot and counting the blood of the covenant an unclean thing. Which is, actually, precisely what is being done by anyone who says that Christ's sacrifice is not enough to save us, but that we must add our works.

And all those things you suggested about me promoting sin or considering living a sinful life to be a humble position? Nope, I never said any of that.

No one who truly understands the Gospel and rests in Christ is going to love their sin or encourage others to just go around sinning as much as possible. That is absurd.

Neither you, nor anyone else has the ability or the authority to change the Gospel, even if you do think someone will abuse the freedom they have in Christ.

It is very interesting to me that time and time again, a person's first reaction to hearing that someone else understands that we cannot earn our salvation by works and right living, responds with something like "so you think you can just go around murdering people and still be saved?"

Mind boggling! As if that is ever the response or reaction of anyone who truly understands the Gospel.

In the flesh, no one is without sin. Read Paul's words again. It is pure arrogance to claim that in our flesh we are living a sinless life. Do you worry? That's a sin. Do you get unjustly angry? That's a sin. Do you envy? Sin. Are you ever lazy? Sin. Have you failed to help someone in need? Sin. Have you said something thoughtless that may have hurt someone? Sin.

If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.

God bless.

Doug Melven · Dec 14, 2017

amariselle said:
Also, you should know that nowhere in Scripture will you find anything about "initial salvation" and "continued salvation." Salvation is in Christ, period, it is found nowhere else. It is not Biblical to tell people that they are "initially saved" by Christ but then "continually saved" by their works.

Colossians 2:6 As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him:

We received Him by grace, we should walk in Him by grace.
Galatians 3
1 You foolish Galatians! Who has hypnotized you, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was vividly portrayed as crucified?
2 I only want to learn this from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law or by hearing with faith?
3 Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit, are you now going to be made complete by the flesh?

amariselle · Dec 14, 2017

Doug Melven said:
Colossians 2:6 As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him:

We received Him by grace, we should walk in Him by grace.
Galatians 3
1 You foolish Galatians! Who has hypnotized you, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was vividly portrayed as crucified?
2 I only want to learn this from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law or by hearing with faith?
3 Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit, are you now going to be made complete by the flesh?

Exactly. We do not begin with faith in Christ, being born again and receiving the Spirit, only to then make salvation about our works.

Bible Highlighter · Dec 14, 2017

Doug Melven said:
There are verses that say those that sin cannot inherit the kingdom of God. There are no verses that say a believer will be separated from God by there sin.
Sin separating us from God is an OT concept. Isaiah 59:2
But Jesus put sin away. John 1:29. Hebrews 9:26
God hates sin, those who love God hate sin.
If our sin separated us from God, no one would get eternal life.
As much as I hate sin, I still sin. The new man does not sin. My soul is being transformed, but it is not new yet. My body will be transformed when Jesus comes back, it is not new yet. It is my flesh that sins.
My spirit has been sealed by the Holy Spirit. Ephesians 1:14
Once you are born again, you are a child of God. Sinning will not change that.

These verses do not say a person who is a child of God after committing a sin is no longer a child of God.
A child of God cannot commit these sins, if he did and he lost his salvation, he would be lost forever.
The concept of losing salvation and regaining it is not found in the Bible. Hebrews 6:4-6 Look at the word "impossible"

This reply in no way addresses what I was talking about.

Can you be out of Fellowship with God and still be Saved?

Well, when we look at the Scriptures we have to be very careful to not see something that we would want to see and or that is not there. For there is no verse or set of verses that specifically state that we can be out of fellowship with God and still be saved. On the contrary, the Scriptures strongly suggest otherwise. For God is the source of Salvation, Light, and Life.. Sin causes a separation between us and God; And we can see a connection between having fellowship with the Lord and eternal life within His Word.

Sin is Separation from God:

Isaiah 59:2

But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.

Micah 3:4

Then shall they cry unto the LORD, but he will not hear them: he will even hide his face from them at that time, as they have behaved themselves in an evil way in their deeds.

Ezekiel 39:23-24

And the heathen shall know that the house of Israel went into captivity for their iniquity: because they trespassed against me, therefore hid I my face from them, and gave them into the hand of their enemies: so fell they all by the sword. According to their uncleanness and according to their transgressions have I done unto them, and hid my face from them

Isaiah 1:15

And when ye spread forth your hands, I will hide mine eyes from you: yea, when ye make many prayers, I will not hear: your hands are full of blood.

Deuteronomy 31:17-18

Then my anger shall be kindled against them in that day, and I will forsake them, and I will hide my face from them, and they shall be devoured, and many evils and troubles shall befall them; so that they will say in that day, Are not these evils come upon us, because our God is not among us? And I will surely hide my face in that day for all the evils which they shall have wrought, in that they are turned unto other gods.

Proverbs 1:28 CJB and Proverbs 1:29

Then they will call me, but I won’t answer; they will seek me earnestly, but they won’t find me. For that they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the Lord

Isaiah 57:17 ESV

Because of the iniquity of his unjust gain I was angry, I struck him; I hid my face and was angry, but he went on backsliding in the way of his own heart.

Proverbs 15:29

The LORD is far from the wicked: but he heareth the prayer of the righteous.

Deuteronomy 32:19-20 KJ2

And when the LORD saw it, he abhorred them, because of the provoking of his sons, and of his daughters. And he said, I will hide my face from them, I will see what their end shall be: for they are a very perverse generation, children in whom is no faith.

John 9:31 ESV

We know that God does not listen to sinners, but if anyone is a worshiper of God and does his will, God listens to him.

Proverbs 28:9

He that turneth away his ear from hearing the law, even his prayer shall be abomination.

Job 27:8-9 GNV

For what hope hath the hypocrite when he hath heaped up riches, if God take away his soul? Will God hear his cry, when trouble cometh upon him?

Zechariah 7:13 KJ2

Therefore it has come to pass that as He cried and they would not hear, so they cried and I would not hear,” saith the Lord of hosts.

Ezekiel 8:17-18 NLT

Have you seen this, son of man?” he asked. “Is it nothing to the people of Judah that they commit these detestable sins, leading the whole nation into violence, thumbing their noses at me, and provoking my anger? Therefore, I will respond in fury. I will neither pity nor spare them. And though they cry for mercy, I will not listen.

Jeremiah 14:10-12

Thus saith the Lord unto this people, Thus have they loved to wander, they have not refrained their feet, therefore the Lord doth not accept them; he will now remember their iniquity, and visit their sins. Then said the Lord unto me, Pray not for this people for their good. When they fast, I will not hear their cry; and when they offer burnt offering and an oblation, I will not accept them: but I will consume them by the sword, and by the famine, and by the pestilence.

Isaiah 58:9 HCSB

At that time, when you call, the Lord will answer; when you cry out, He will say, ‘Here I am.’ If you get rid of the yoke among you, the finger-pointing and malicious speaking,

Proverbs 21:13

Whoso stoppeth his ears at the cry of the poor, he also shall cry himself, but shall not be heard.

Psalm 66:18

If I regard iniquity in my heart, the Lord will not hear me

Psalm 34:15-16

The eyes of the Lord are upon the righteous, and his ears are open unto their cry. The face of the Lord is against them that do evil, to cut off the remembrance of them from the earth.

If you will notice the last verse in the list above, you will see that the Lord is against them that do evil. Also, if you look at Jeremiah 14:10-12 within the list, you will also take note that those who wander away God will not accept. In fact, sin being separation from God is not a new concept. For it was Adam and Eve's sin that separated them from God whereby they and all off their offspring (i.e. the entire human race) would need a Savior.

God is Salvation, Light, and Life:

#1. God is Salvation:
(Isaiah 12:2) (Exodus 15:2) (Psalm 27:1) (Psalm 118:14) (Revelation 7:10) (Jonah 2:9) (Acts 4:12).

How can you have Salvation if you do not have God?

#2. God is Light:
(1 John 1:5) (James 1:17) (Psalm 27:1) (Psalm 36:9) (1 Timothy 6:16) (Isaiah 60:19) (John 1:4) (John 1:9) (John 8:12) (John 9:5) (John 12:35-36) (Revelation 21:23) (Revelation 22:5).

How can you have Light if you are in darkness without God?

#3. God is Life:
(John 1:4) (John 5:21) (John 5:26) (John 6:33) (John 6:51) (John 6:57) (John 10:28) (John 11:25) (John 14:6) (John 17:3) (1 John 1:1-2) (1 John 5:11-12) (1 John 5:20) (Acts 3:15) (Romans 5:21) (1 Corinthians 15:45) (Colossians 3:4).

How can you have Spiritual Life if you are without God?

Fellowship with God = Eternal Life:

He That Has the Son Has Life And He That Does Not Have the Son Does Not Have Life:

1 John 5:11-12 says,
"And this is the record, that God hath given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He that hath the Son hath life, and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life."

Did you catch that? It says we have eternal life but this life is in the Son. For he (anyone) who has the Son has life. However, anyone who does not have the Son does not have life. The words "eternal life" and "life" here are obviously tied to salvation. How so?

Well, John 3:16-17 says, "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved."

In other words, those in this world who hear the gospel, or those who seek it might be saved. For whosever believes in him will have everlasting life; For that is the connection in how one might be saved.

Besides, how can you be saved and not have eternal life?

God Alone Has Immortality:

1 Timothy 6:16 says,
"Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen."

Christ (God) only has immortality. To be immortal means one has "eternal life." So no one is immortal without Jesus Christ because only He alone possesses immortality or eternal life. There is no verse that says men are naturally immortal; And only those who are saved have everlasting life (John 3:16-17).

A Connection Between Life and Fellowship With God:

John 17:3 says,
"And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

Here we see that "life eternal" is connected with knowing the one true God ---> Jesus Christ. Knowing someone implies that you are having fellowship with them.

The Scriptures also say,

"(For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us; ) That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ." (1 John 1:2-3).

"If we say we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth." (1 John 1:6).

And all liars will have their part in the Lake of Fire (Revelation 21:8).

We also learn in the Scriptures that knowing him is tied to the power of His resurrection, too.

"That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death; If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead." (Philippians 3:10-11).

All the Seed of Abraham will be Justified "In" the Lord:

In fact, Isaiah 45:25 says, "In the Lord shall all the seed of Israel be justified." For Galatians 3:29 says, "And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise." In other words, if you are a true believer (that is saved), you are of the seed of Abraham and an heir according to the Promise. Yet, Isaiah 45:25 that only all those who are of the seed of Israel shall be justified by being IN the Lord.

Conclusion:

So can you be out of fellowship with God and still be saved? No. Most definitely not. "You were at one time were far off, but now you are made near by the blood of Christ." (Ephesians 2:13). For what fellowship has Light with Darkness? What fellowship does righteousness have with unrighteousness? (2 Corinthians 6:14). For we are to have no felllowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but we are to rather reprove them (Ephesians 5:11). For... "if we walk in the light, as He is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his son cleanseth us from all sin (1 John 1:7).

Bible Highlighter · Dec 14, 2017

amariselle said:
Also, you should know that nowhere in Scripture will you find anything about "initial salvation" and "continued salvation." Salvation is in Christ, period, it is found nowhere else. It is not Biblical to tell people that they are "initially saved" by Christ but then "continually saved" by their works.

And the "willful sin" is rejecting Christ, trampling the Son of God underfoot and counting the blood of the covenant an unclean thing. Which is, actually, precisely what is being done by anyone who says that Christ's sacrifice is not enough to save us, but that we must add our works.

And all those things you suggested about me promoting sin or considering living a sinful life to be a humble position? Nope, I never said any of that.

No one who truly understands the Gospel and rests in Christ is going to love their sin or encourage others to just go around sinning as much as possible. That is absurd.

Neither you, nor anyone else has the ability or the authority to change the Gospel, even if you do think someone will abuse the freedom they have in Christ.

It is very interesting to me that time and time again, a person's first reaction to hearing that someone else understands that we cannot earn our salvation by works and right living, responds with something like "so you think you can just go around murdering people and still be saved?"

Mind boggling! As if that is ever the response or reaction of anyone who truly understands the Gospel.

In the flesh, no one is without sin. Read Paul's words again. It is pure arrogance to claim that in our flesh we are living a sinless life. Do you worry? That's a sin. Do you get unjustly angry? That's a sin. Do you envy? Sin. Are you ever lazy? Sin. Have you failed to help someone in need? Sin. Have you said something thoughtless that may have hurt someone? Sin.

If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.

God bless.

Our Past Salvation

Ananias said to Paul, "Arise and be baptized and wash away your sins"(Acts of the Apostles 22:16). So Paul, as soon as he obeyed, had his sins washed away. He was saved.
Paul said to the Corinthians, "You were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified..." (1 Corinthians 6:11) They were saved.
Paul says of God our Saviour, "he saved us..." (Titus 3:4-5). That's past tense, isn't it?.
A little earlier there in Titus, Paul says, "The grace of God has appeared bringing salvation to all men" (Titus 2:11)

Our Present Salvation

Paul spoke to the Corinthians of "those who are being saved"(2 Corinthians 2:15). Here we do not have past tense. We have the word "saved" used in a present and ongoing sense.
Paul tells the Philippians, "work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who is at work in you..." (Philippians 2:12-13).Here we see salvation presented as something being worked for by us in synergy with God. It is not all over and done with.
Note the implication of this question, "How shall we escape if we neglect so great salvation?" (Hebrews 2:1-3).
Another telling statement, "be all the more diligent to make your calling and election sure..." (2 Peter 1:10)
John says that "the blood of Christ cleanses us..." (1 John 1:7). Past sins were forgiven when we became Christians, but further sins since then need to be forgiven too. Forgiveness and salvation continue as we walk in the light.

Our Promised Salvation

Jesus said, "these (wicked) shall go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life" (Matthew 25:46). This is a future event.
As we saw at the introduction to this lesson, Paul twice says, "We shall be saved..." (Romans 5:9-10). This is neither past nor present, but future, isn't it?
Paul makes an interesting statement, "Our salvation is now nearer than when we first believed" (Romans 13:11).
The Holy Spirit is given "as a guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession..." (Ephesians 1:14). Here redemption and the eternal inheritance is something in view, something yet future.
Paul speaks of "the hope of salvation" (1 Thessalonians 5:8). A hope of salvation implies a future salvation. If our salvation were altogether finished, then we would have no need any more to hold it as our hope.

Source:
Saved in Three Tenses -3 Times of Salvation - Have been, are being, shall be saved

amariselle · Dec 14, 2017

Jason0047 said:
Our Past Salvation

Ananias said to Paul, "Arise and be baptized and wash away your sins"(Acts of the Apostles 22:16). So Paul, as soon as he obeyed, had his sins washed away. He was saved.

Paul said to the Corinthians, "You were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified..." (1 Corinthians 6:11) They were saved.

Paul says of God our Saviour, "he saved us..." (Titus 3:4-5). That's past tense, isn't it?.

A little earlier there in Titus, Paul says, "The grace of God has appeared bringing salvation to all men" (Titus 2:11)

Our Present Salvation

Paul spoke to the Corinthians of "those who are being saved"(2 Corinthians 2:15). Here we do not have past tense. We have the word "saved" used in a present and ongoing sense.

Paul tells the Philippians, "work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who is at work in you..." (Philippians 2:12-13).Here we see salvation presented as something being worked for by us in synergy with God. It is not all over and done with.

Note the implication of this question, "How shall we escape if we neglect so great salvation?" (Hebrews 2:1-3).

Another telling statement, "be all the more diligent to make your calling and election sure..." (2 Peter 1:10)

John says that "the blood of Christ cleanses us..." (1 John 1:7). Past sins were forgiven when we became Christians, but further sins since then need to be forgiven too. Forgiveness and salvation continue as we walk in the light.

Our Promised Salvation

Jesus said, "these (wicked) shall go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life" (Matthew 25:46). This is a future event.

As we saw at the introduction to this lesson, Paul twice says, "We shall be saved..." (Romans 5:9-10). This is neither past nor present, but future, isn't it?

Paul makes an interesting statement, "Our salvation is now nearer than when we first believed" (Romans 13:11).

The Holy Spirit is given "as a guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession..." (Ephesians 1:14). Here redemption and the eternal inheritance is something in view, something yet future.

Paul speaks of "the hope of salvation" (1 Thessalonians 5:8). A hope of salvation implies a future salvation. If our salvation were altogether finished, then we would have no need any more to hold it as our hope.

Source:
Saved in Three Tenses -3 Times of Salvation - Have been, are being, shall be saved

You missed the point. None of those verses say we earn our salvation or that our "initial salvation" is in Christ, while our "continual salvation" is by our works.

Salvation is by grace, through faith and not of works, period. It is the gift of God, lest and man should boast.

It is Christ Who saves, it is Christ's blood that "washes" us clean.

Doug Melven · Dec 14, 2017

Jason0047 said:
Can you be out of Fellowship with God and still be Saved?

Well, when we look at the Scriptures we have to be very careful to not see something that we would want to see and or that is not there. For there is no verse or set of verses that specifically state that we can be out of fellowship with God and still be saved. On the contrary, the Scriptures strongly suggest otherwise. For God is the source of Salvation, Light, and Life.. Sin causes a separation between us and God; And we can see a connection between having fellowship with the Lord and eternal life within His Word.

Sin is Separation from God:

Isaiah 59:2

But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.

Micah 3:4

Then shall they cry unto the LORD, but he will not hear them: he will even hide his face from them at that time, as they have behaved themselves in an evil way in their deeds.

Ezekiel 39:23-24

And the heathen shall know that the house of Israel went into captivity for their iniquity: because they trespassed against me, therefore hid I my face from them, and gave them into the hand of their enemies: so fell they all by the sword. According to their uncleanness and according to their transgressions have I done unto them, and hid my face from them

Isaiah 1:15

And when ye spread forth your hands, I will hide mine eyes from you: yea, when ye make many prayers, I will not hear: your hands are full of blood.

Deuteronomy 31:17-18

Then my anger shall be kindled against them in that day, and I will forsake them, and I will hide my face from them, and they shall be devoured, and many evils and troubles shall befall them; so that they will say in that day, Are not these evils come upon us, because our God is not among us? And I will surely hide my face in that day for all the evils which they shall have wrought, in that they are turned unto other gods.

Proverbs 1:28 CJB and Proverbs 1:29

Then they will call me, but I won’t answer; they will seek me earnestly, but they won’t find me. For that they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the Lord

Isaiah 57:17 ESV

Because of the iniquity of his unjust gain I was angry, I struck him; I hid my face and was angry, but he went on backsliding in the way of his own heart.

Proverbs 15:29

The LORD is far from the wicked: but he heareth the prayer of the righteous.

Deuteronomy 32:19-20 KJ2

And when the LORD saw it, he abhorred them, because of the provoking of his sons, and of his daughters. And he said, I will hide my face from them, I will see what their end shall be: for they are a very perverse generation, children in whom is no faith.

John 9:31 ESV

We know that God does not listen to sinners, but if anyone is a worshiper of God and does his will, God listens to him.

Proverbs 28:9

He that turneth away his ear from hearing the law, even his prayer shall be abomination.

Job 27:8-9 GNV

For what hope hath the hypocrite when he hath heaped up riches, if God take away his soul? Will God hear his cry, when trouble cometh upon him?

Zechariah 7:13 KJ2

Therefore it has come to pass that as He cried and they would not hear, so they cried and I would not hear,” saith the Lord of hosts.

Ezekiel 8:17-18 NLT

Have you seen this, son of man?” he asked. “Is it nothing to the people of Judah that they commit these detestable sins, leading the whole nation into violence, thumbing their noses at me, and provoking my anger? Therefore, I will respond in fury. I will neither pity nor spare them. And though they cry for mercy, I will not listen.

Jeremiah 14:10-12

Thus saith the Lord unto this people, Thus have they loved to wander, they have not refrained their feet, therefore the Lord doth not accept them; he will now remember their iniquity, and visit their sins. Then said the Lord unto me, Pray not for this people for their good. When they fast, I will not hear their cry; and when they offer burnt offering and an oblation, I will not accept them: but I will consume them by the sword, and by the famine, and by the pestilence.

Isaiah 58:9 HCSB

At that time, when you call, the Lord will answer; when you cry out, He will say, ‘Here I am.’ If you get rid of the yoke among you, the finger-pointing and malicious speaking,

Proverbs 21:13

Whoso stoppeth his ears at the cry of the poor, he also shall cry himself, but shall not be heard.

Psalm 66:18

If I regard iniquity in my heart, the Lord will not hear me

Psalm 34:15-16

The eyes of the Lord are upon the righteous, and his ears are open unto their cry. The face of the Lord is against them that do evil, to cut off the remembrance of them from the earth.

If you will notice the last verse in the list above, you will see that the Lord is against them that do evil. Also, if you look at Jeremiah 14:10-12 within the list, you will also take note that those who wander away God will not accept. In fact, sin being separation from God is not a new concept. For it was Adam and Eve's sin that separated them from God whereby they and all off their offspring (i.e. the entire human race) would need a Savior.

God is Salvation, Light, and Life:

#1. God is Salvation:
(Isaiah 12:2) (Exodus 15:2) (Psalm 27:1) (Psalm 118:14) (Revelation 7:10) (Jonah 2:9) (Acts 4:12).

How can you have Salvation if you do not have God?

#2. God is Light:
(1 John 1:5) (James 1:17) (Psalm 27:1) (Psalm 36:9) (1 Timothy 6:16) (Isaiah 60:19) (John 1:4) (John 1:9) (John 8:12) (John 9:5) (John 12:35-36) (Revelation 21:23) (Revelation 22:5).

How can you have Light if you are in darkness without God?

#3. God is Life:
(John 1:4) (John 5:21) (John 5:26) (John 6:33) (John 6:51) (John 6:57) (John 10:28) (John 11:25) (John 14:6) (John 17:3) (1 John 1:1-2) (1 John 5:11-12) (1 John 5:20) (Acts 3:15) (Romans 5:21) (1 Corinthians 15:45) (Colossians 3:4).

How can you have Spiritual Life if you are without God?

Fellowship with God = Eternal Life:

He That Has the Son Has Life And He That Does Not Have the Son Does Not Have Life:

1 John 5:11-12 says,
"And this is the record, that God hath given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He that hath the Son hath life, and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life."

Did you catch that? It says we have eternal life but this life is in the Son. For he (anyone) who has the Son has life. However, anyone who does not have the Son does not have life. The words "eternal life" and "life" here are obviously tied to salvation. How so?

Well, John 3:16-17 says, "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved."

In other words, those in this world who hear the gospel, or those who seek it might be saved. For whosever believes in him will have everlasting life; For that is the connection in how one might be saved.

Besides, how can you be saved and not have eternal life?

God Alone Has Immortality:

1 Timothy 6:16 says,
"Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen."

Christ (God) only has immortality. To be immortal means one has "eternal life." So no one is immortal without Jesus Christ because only He alone possesses immortality or eternal life. There is no verse that says men are naturally immortal; And only those who are saved have everlasting life (John 3:16-17).

A Connection Between Life and Fellowship With God:

John 17:3 says,
"And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

Here we see that "life eternal" is connected with knowing the one true God ---> Jesus Christ. Knowing someone implies that you are having fellowship with them.

The Scriptures also say,

"(For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us; ) That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ." (1 John 1:2-3).

"If we say we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth." (1 John 1:6).

And all liars will have their part in the Lake of Fire (Revelation 21:8).

We also learn in the Scriptures that knowing him is tied to the power of His resurrection, too.

"That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death; If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead." (Philippians 3:10-11).

All the Seed of Abraham will be Justified "In" the Lord:

In fact, Isaiah 45:25 says, "In the Lord shall all the seed of Israel be justified." For Galatians 3:29 says, "And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise." In other words, if you are a true believer (that is saved), you are of the seed of Abraham and an heir according to the Promise. Yet, Isaiah 45:25 that only all those who are of the seed of Israel shall be justified by being IN the Lord.

Conclusion:

So can you be out of fellowship with God and still be saved? No. Most definitely not. "You were at one time were far off, but now you are made near by the blood of Christ." (Ephesians 2:13). For what fellowship has Light with Darkness? What fellowship does righteousness have with unrighteousness? (2 Corinthians 6:14). For we are to have no felllowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but we are to rather reprove them (Ephesians 5:11). For... "if we walk in the light, as He is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his son cleanseth us from all sin (1 John 1:7).

In all the verses you quote in saying "Sin is separation from God", you only quote 1 NT Scripture.
And if you look at the context of that Scripture, you will see that it is a man talking, not God or Jesus, just a man.
As I said before, "Sin separating us from God is an OT concept".
If our sin separated us who are in Christ from God then we have to do away with what Jesus did.
If we sin, we do not lose our salvation.
If we sin, we do not break fellowship with God.
Our salvation is dependent on Christ alone.
Our fellowship with God is dependent on Christ alone.

Am I saying we should just go out and do whatever we like?
No, a million times no. God forbid.
Sin has consequences. I can testify to this as I spent 58 months in prison for my sins.
I was addicted to inappropriate contentography. Even though I have not looked at inappropriate content in years, because of how much I corrupted my mind, I still have trouble sometimes in thinking of a woman without thinking of her as a sex object.
Sin will cost you more than you want to pay.
Sin will take you farther than you wanted to go.
Sin will keep you longer than you wanted to stay.
Sin will not cost you your salvation as Jesus paid for it in full.
When He said "It is finished", He really meant it was finished.

Bible Highlighter · Dec 14, 2017

amariselle said:
You missed the point. None of those verses say we earn our salvation or that our "initial salvation" is in Christ, while our "continual salvation" is by our works.

Salvation is by grace, through faith and not of works, period. It is the gift of God, lest and man should boast.

It is Christ Who saves, it is Christ's blood that "washes" us clean.

No. We are saved by God's grace and by good works.
Ephesians 2:8-9 and Romans 4 is talking about "Initial Salvation." We are saved by God's grace without works when we come to Christ. I already showed you the context for this. After we are saved by God's grace without works, we then need to bring forth fruits worthy of repentance.

As for the blood of Christ: Again, 1 John 1:7 says,
"But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin."

Also, Scripture says,

"...Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling." (Philippians 2:12).
"Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off." (Romans 11:22).
Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only." (James 2:24).
"Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone." (James 2:17).
"They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate." (Titus 1:16).
"If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; He is proud, knowing nothing, "
(1 Timothy 6:3-4).
"...God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble." (James 4:6).
"And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him." (Hebrews 5:9).
"Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord" (Hebrews 12:14).
"If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema Maranatha." (1 Corinthians 16:22).
"If ye love me, keep my commandments." (John 14:15).
"Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls." (James 1:21).
"But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: For there is no respect of persons with God." (Romans 2:8-11).
"For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved." (John 3:20).
"What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? (Romans 6:1-2).
"...but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments." (Matthew 19:17).

Righteous living is required for salvation.

"For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven." (Matthew 5:20).

Sin can condemn us.

"For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned." (Matthew 12:37).
"But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses." (Matthew 6:15).
"But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart. And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell. And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell." (Matthew 5:28-30).

There is an obedience to the faith.

"But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:" (Romans 16:26).

"By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:" (Romans 1:5).

Faith works; And it works by love.

"...but faith which worketh by love." (Galatians 5:6).

There is a thing called "work of faith":

"Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father;" (1 Thessalonians 1:3).

"Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of his goodness, and the work of faith with power:" (2 Thessalonians 1:11).

Faith can be shipwrecked (1 Timothy 1:19),
Faith can be departed from (1 Timothy 4:1),
Faith can be disowned (1 Timothy 5:8),
faith can be wandered from (1 Timothy 6:10), and
faith can be missed (1 Timothy 6:21).

We can depart from the living God by having an evil heart of unbelief. So this is why we are to exhort each other daily so as not to have our hearts hardened by the deceitfulness of sin.

"Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin." (Hebrews 3:11-12).

amariselle · Dec 14, 2017

Jason0047 said:
Again, 1 John 1:7 says,
"But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin."

Exactly. What cleanses us from sin? Our righteousness? Our works? No, the blood of Christ.

And you need to understand that no saved, born again believer is walking in darkness. In Christ we do walk in the light and in newness of life. This life is in the Son.

Jason0047 said:
Also, Scripture says,

"...Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling." (Philippians 2:12).
Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only." (James 2:24).
"Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone." (James 2:17).
"They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate." (Titus 1:16).
"If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; He is proud, knowing nothing,

You've quoted those same snippets of Scripture numerous times, and I've already addressed them. They do not teach a works based salvation.

Jason0047 said:
(1 Timothy 6:3-4).
"...God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble." (James 4:6).
"And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him." (Hebrews 5:9).
"Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord" (Hebrews 12:14).
"If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema Maranatha." (1 Corinthians 16:22).
"If ye love me, keep my commandments." (John 14:15).
"Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls." (James 1:21).
"But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: For there is no respect of persons with God." (Romans 2:8-11).
"For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved." (John 3:20).
"What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? (Romans 6:1-2).
"...but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments." (Matthew 19:17).

You should really study (or re-study) those verses in their proper context. I promise you, God does not contradict Himself. No one can or is earning salvation. It really is a gift and Jesus really did accomplish what He came to do. There is no more condemnation for those in Christ Jesus and nothing and no one can pluck us from His hand. Neither will He leave us or forsake us. God is not ever going to damn His children to hell.

Jason0047 said:
Righteous living is required for salvation.

Incorrect. The only requirement for salvation is to do "the will of the Father" which is to believe on the Son.

After we are saved, born again and made new creations in Christ, then we will grow in spiritual maturity and learn to walk in His ways. Apart from Him, we can do nothing.

It is not "good news", nor is it the truth, to tell people they must "live right" to be saved. If one desires to be justified by works, therefore putting themselves back under the Law, one better be sure they have kept it perfectly, in thought, word and deed, from birth to death.

That is how high God's standard is. He who offends in one point, offends in all.

So, I'll stick with Scripture and "rest" in Christ.

Jason0047 said:
"For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven." (Matthew 5:20).

Do you understand the point Jesus was making there?

Jason0047 said:
Sin can condemn us.

There is no longer any condemnation for those in Christ Jesus.

Jason0047 said:
"For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned." (Matthew 12:37).
"But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses." (Matthew 6:15).
"But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart. And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell. And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell." (Matthew 5:28-30).

Again, if you think Jesus was teaching people they could earn their own salvation, you are mistaken. I do encourage you to carefully study those verses, in context.

Jason0047 said:
There is an obedience to the faith.

"But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:" (Romans 16:26).

"By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:" (Romans 1:5).

Faith works; And it works by love.

"...but faith which worketh by love." (Galatians 5:6).

There is a thing called "work of faith":

"Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father;" (1 Thessalonians 1:3).

"Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of his goodness, and the work of faith with power:" (2 Thessalonians 1:11).

Faith can be shipwrecked (1 Timothy 1:19),
Faith can be departed from (1 Timothy 4:1),
Faith can be disowned (1 Timothy 5:8),
faith can be wandered from (1 Timothy 6:10), and
faith can be missed (1 Timothy 6:21).

Until you start discussing verses in proper context, I have nothing more I can say.

A lot of what you're doing is confusing salvation with discipleship.

God bless.

Bible Highlighter · Dec 15, 2017

amariselle said:
Exactly. What cleanses us from sin? Our righteousness? Our works? No, the blood of Christ.

And you need to understand that no saved, born again believer is walking in darkness. In Christ we do walk in the light and in newness of life. This life is in the Son.

You've quoted those same snippets of Scripture numerous times, and I've already addressed them. They do not teach a works based salvation.

You should really study (or re-study) those verses in their proper context. I promise you, God does not contradict Himself. No one can or is earning salvation. It really is a gift and Jesus really did accomplish what He came to do. There is no more condemnation for those in Christ Jesus and nothing and no one can pluck us from His hand. Neither will He leave us or forsake us. God is not ever going to damn His children to hell.

Incorrect. The only requirement for salvation is to do "the will of the Father" which is to believe on the Son.

After we are saved, born again and made new creations in Christ, then we will grow in spiritual maturity and learn to walk in His ways. Apart from Him, we can do nothing.

It is not "good news", nor is it the truth, to tell people they must "live right" to be saved. If one desires to be justified by works, therefore putting themselves back under the Law, one better be sure they have kept it perfectly, in thought, word and deed, from birth to death.

That is how high God's standard is. He who offends in one point, offends in all.

So, I'll stick with Scripture and "rest" in Christ.

Do you understand the point Jesus was making there?

There is no longer any condemnation for those in Christ Jesus.

Again, if you think Jesus was teaching people they could earn their own salvation, you are mistaken. I do encourage you to carefully study those verses, in context.

Until you start discussing verses in proper context, I have nothing more I can say.

A lot of what you're doing is confusing salvation with discipleship.

God bless.

I mean, we can keep going back and forth, but I do not think we will convince each other. Also, if you really wanted to prove me wrong, you would have showed the context. But we know you cannot do that. So this debate should probably rest. Especially seeing it is about the Passion Translation. Oh, and by the way, you will be happy to take note that the Passion Translation erroneously teaches your belief on salvation.

The Passion Translation says in Galatians 2:16
"we know full well that we don’t receive God’s perfect righteousness as a reward for keeping the law, but by the faith of Jesus, the Messiah! His faithfulness, not ours, has saved us, and we have received God’s perfect righteousness. Now we know that God accepts no one by the keeping of religious laws!"

This is what it says in God's Word.

"Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified." (Galatians 2:16) (KJV).

Notice it does not say "his faithfulness saves us and it not our own faithfulness that saves" in the KJV?
Nowhere in the Bible does any phrase say this.
But yet, that is the same thing you are saying.
So the very translation you are condemning appears to at least agree with your version of Soteriology that is not found in the Bible and basic morality.

amariselle · Dec 15, 2017

Jason0047 said:
We can keep going back and forth, but I do not think we will convince each other.

Let Scripture "convince" you. That's what matters. The Bible is our authority and our standard by which we "test" all things. We must search the Scriptures.

Jason0047 said:
Also, if you really wanted to prove me wrong, you would have showed the context. But we know you cannot do that.

I shared entire chapters and noted that we should read the entire book/letter. Context is indeed necessary, and I never said otherwise.

You were the one sharing small snippets of Scripture and half verses.

Jason0047 said:
So this debate should probably rest.

Indeed.

Jason0047 said:
Especially seeing it is about the Passion Translation.

This thread is about The Passion Translation, we were discussing salvation.

Jason0047 said:
Oh, and by the way, you will be happy to take note that the Passion Translation erroneously teaches your belief on salvation.

The Passion Translation says in Galatians 2:16
"we know full well that we don’t receive God’s perfect righteousness as a reward for keeping the law, but by the faith of Jesus, the Messiah! His faithfulness, not ours, has saved us, and we have received God’s perfect righteousness. Now we know that God accepts no one by the keeping of religious laws!"

I don't actually care what The Passion Translation teaches, it is not Scripture. However, real Scripture does teach salvation in Christ alone (the Gospel), so it is truly unfortunate that you disagree with that.

Jason0047 said:
This is what it says in God's Word.

"Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified." (Galatians 2:16) (KJV).

Exactly! Justified "by the faith of Christ", not the "works of the Law" by which no flesh will be justified in His sight.

Jason0047 said:
Notice it does not say "his faithfulness saves us and it not our own faithfulness that saves" in the KJV?
Nowhere in the Bible does any phrase say this.

It is Christ who saves us, we do not save ourselves. And even when we are "faithless", He abides "faithful" and cannot deny Himself.

Jason0047 said:
But yet, that is the same thing you are saying.
So it appears you are in good company with the translator that you are condemning.

I condemn no one. I don't know if Brian Simmons is saved or not. What I reject is the written work.

Bible Highlighter · Dec 15, 2017

amariselle said:
I condemn no one. I don't know if Brian Simmons is saved or not. What I reject is the written work.

If Brian takes away from God's Word he is in big trouble with God (According to God's Word). Meaning, if he takes away verses that are supposed to be there, it will not be good for him. For if we take away the words of the Holy Scriptures, God will take away our name out of the book of life. I mean, right there in Revelation it refutes your belief in Eternal Security. But you probably think it is talking about physical death (Which makes absolutely no sense). But believe what you will. God will reveal the truth to you in time.

amariselle · Dec 15, 2017

Jason0047 said:
If Brian takes away from God's Word he is in big trouble with God. Meaning, if he takes away verses that are supposed to be there, it will not be good for him. For if we take away the words of the Holy Scriptures, God will take away our name out of the book of life. I mean, right there in Revelation it refutes your belief in Eternal Security. But you probably think it is talking about physical death (Which makes absolutely no sense).

We can be "secure" in our salvation, as it is Christ alone who saves us.

Only Satan wants us to be in doubt and despair, not God.

Bible Highlighter · Dec 15, 2017

amariselle said:
We can be "secure" in our salvation, as it is Christ alone who saves us.

Only Satan wants us to be in doubt and despair, not God.

But you are not reading Scripture right. Take for example 1 John 1:7. You said that we are saved by the blood of Christ. This is very true. However, you are ignoring that part of 1 John 1:7 that says we are to WALK in the light as He [Christ] is in the light .... so that the blood of Christ can cleanse us.

Let's read it.

"But IF we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin." (1 John 1:7).

I also need to stress to you that it says... IF. IF we walk in the light ...the blood of Jesus cleanses us from all sin.
Are you walking in the light?
Walking in the light is obeying His commandments.
Please compare 1 John 1:6-7 with 1 John 2:3-4. For they use very similar language here and are a parallel with each other. If you don't believe me, post them back to me and show me they do not sound similar to each other.

Bible Highlighter · Dec 15, 2017

As for taking away words out of God's Holy Word:

"And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book." (Revelation 22:19).

The book of life is dealing with salvation here.
For it is talking about the Lamb's book of life, unless of course you believe that all translators immediately died by some mysterious death after their Bible was published.

amariselle · Dec 15, 2017

Jason0047 said:
But you are not reading Scripture right. Take for example 1 John 1:7. You said that we are saved by the blood of Christ. This is very true. However, you are ignoring that part of 1 John 1:7 that says we are to WALK in the light as He [Christ] is in the light .... so that the blood of Christ can cleanse us.

I didn't actually "ignore" that verse at all. Perhaps you didn't read my response. No one who is saved, born again, having passed from death to life and become a "new creation" in Christ is walking in darkness. All saved believers do walk in the "light", because we are in Christ who is the "Light", and we have newness of life in Him. Do you think that God is so faithless that He would leave His children in darkness?

Jason0047 said:
Let's read it.

"But IF we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin." (1 John 1:7).

Yes, so what exactly is the problem you believe I have with that verse? I don't disagree with it. It doesn't say we earn our own salvation.

Jason0047 said:
I also need to stress to you that it says... IF. IF we walk in the light ...the blood of Jesus cleanses us from all sin.

Do you agree that a saved, born again believer who is a new creation in Christ is "walking in the light?" Or do you think that person is still in darkness?

Jason0047 said:
Are you walking in the light?

Yes.

Jason0047 said:
Walking in the light is obeying His commandments.

Those who have done "the will of the Father" have obeyed Christ and are found in Him. They walk in newness of life, having passed from death to life. The wrath of God no longer abides on them and there is no longer any condemnation for those in Christ Jesus. Neither will anyone snatch them out of His hand, nor will He ever leave or forsake them.

Jason0047 said:
Please compare 1 John 1:6-7 with 1 John 2:3-4. For they use very similar language here and are a parallel with each other. If you don't believe me, post them back to me and show me they do not sound similar to each other.

It is unfortunate that you would tell people that they must earn their salvation, that Christ's sacrifice isn't enough to save them. Beyond unfortunate really.

Such teachings put people back into bondage and take their eyes off the cross and off of Christ to focus on themselves and their own efforts to be saved.

This is a denial of the Gospel. This is what is meant to "willfully sin" and trample the Son of God underfoot, counting the blood of the covenant an "unclean thing" (insufficient and unable to save).

What you're really saying is that Jesus failed in what He came to do, that He lied when He said "it is finished!" That His blood, His unfathomably precious sacrifice just was not enough. That no one can really trust Him, but that they had better look to their own behaviour to be sure they are saved and earning salvation.

You should really think about that. It's what the Pharisees were doing as well, placing heavy burdens on people and not lifting a finger to help them. Rules about rules about rules. Jesus, on the other hand, came to set people free. He calls all who are weary and heavy laden to come to Him and He will give them rest.

I've been in a place, for most of my life, where I believed just what you are saying. You know where it left me? In utter despair, sometimes crying in a heap on the floor. Why? Because I know full well that I am a sinner who is not doing enough good or ceasing from sin in the flesh completely, and that therefore I cannot earn my own salvation. My focus was on myself and my flesh, not on Christ and my salvation in Him.

The belief that we earn salvation will only lead to pride or despair, maybe both.

The cross is indeed an "offense."

"The Passion Translation": You are Jesus Christ's Equal

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Well-Known Member

Jesus Never Fails

Jesus Never Fails

Well-Known Member

Jesus Never Fails

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Jesus Never Fails

Well-Known Member

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Jesus Never Fails

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Jesus Never Fails

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Jesus Never Fails

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Jesus Never Fails

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