7 seals of Revelation - Bible study LIVE

claninja said:

You are still being vague, so I’ll have to ask for some clarification.

So Jesus wasn’t telling his audience that they would see persecutions, wars, false prophets, earthquakes, famines, and the temple destruction?

It sounds like you are saying that all the time jesus uses the word “you” in the olivet discourse (which is a lot), he was not talking to his audience but a future generation?

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I'm being vague??? You are mad!

Davy said:

I'm being vague??? You are mad!

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Yes, vague.
i still can’t fully tell if you believe persecution, wars, famines, earthquakes, false prophets, and the temple destruction would occur during the lives of Jesus’ audience.

At one point you say it was ONLY about a future generation fulfillment:

Davy said:

which are ONLY for the last generation on earth

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And in another point, you say it is dual fulfillment:

Davy said:

When Jesus said not one stone upon another, that can serve as a dual fulfillment prophecy

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It's a simple question really, and for some reason you won't give a simple answer. So I'll ask again, Yes or No,

Did wars, persecution, famines, earthquakes, false prophets, and the temple destruction occur during the generation of Jesus' audience?

Davy said:

You are mad!

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Please address the content of the post and not me personally.

Davy said:

You might want to catch up on the plans to build a third temple in Jerusalem in our days. If the orthodox Jews build that third temple, it means the startup of sacrifices and old covenant worship again.

The Temple Mount Faithful | Working to Rebuild the Temple on the Temple Mount

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There have been plans for a third temple for a long time. This isn't anything new.

So is the old covenant still valid today? Will the old covenant come back to replace the new covenant?

claninja said:

Yes, vague.
i still can’t fully tell if you believe persecution, wars, famines, earthquakes, false prophets, and the temple destruction would occur during the lives of Jesus’ audience.

At one point you say it was ONLY about a future generation fulfillment:


And in another point, you say it is dual fulfillment:


It's a simple question really, and for some reason you won't give a simple answer. So I'll ask again, Yes or No,

Did wars, persecution, famines, earthquakes, false prophets, and the temple destruction occur during the generation of Jesus' audience?


Please address the content of the post and not me personally.

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Please address the scriptures I posted and not ME PERSONALLY WITH YOUR FALSE COMMENT THAT I AM "VAGUE".

If you want to continue conversation with me, then you owe me an apology, because one thing I never am, is "vague".

Davy said:

The everything was fulfilled in 70 A.D. Preterist doctrine is taken by some so far as to even teach the falsehood that Jesus' coming is only some kind of spiritual coming, and that He RETURNED in the days of His Apostles! That's the kind of falsehood that kind of doctrine creates.

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You need to go back and read my post again, which refers to the future Second Coming in Luke 21:25-28.

.

Davy said:

Please address the scriptures I posted and not ME PERSONALLY WITH YOUR FALSE COMMENT THAT I AM "VAGUE".

If you want to continue conversation with me, then you owe me an apology, because one thing I never am, is "vague".

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Your quoting of scripture was not vague or unclear. It’s your interpretation that i am unclear on . I addressed what was vague or unclear to me in post #42.

If I am unclear on something that appears to be contradictory on your part, it’s best to clarify instead of accusing.

claninja said:

So the generation Jesus was talking to during the Olivet discourse did not see any false prophets, earthquakes, famines, persecutions, wars, or the destruction of the temple?

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claninja, Jesus wasn't talking to a "generation" - but to the disciples there with him - about the events surrounding to and concluding with his return.

Regarding what "generation" does not pass away, among other things, it boils down to what is the the fig tree.

And when travel and knowledge are increased.

Douggg said:

claninja, Jesus wasn't talking to a "generation" - but to the disciples there with him - about the events surrounding to and concluding with his return.

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Absolutely agree. Jesus is addressing his disciples:
Matthew 24:3
As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately. “Tell us,” they said, “when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?”

Jesus even says you (disciples) many times after:

Matthew 24:4
Jesus answered: “Watch out that no one deceives you (disciples)
Matthew 24:6
You (disciples) will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come.
Matthew 24:9
“Then you (disciples) will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you (disciples) will be hated by all nations because of me.
Matthew 24:15
So when you (disciples) see the abomination of desolation spoken of by the prophet Daniel,
Matthew 24:19
Pray that your (disciples) flight may not be in winter or on a Sabbath.
Matthew 24:23
Then if anyone says to you (disciples), ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There he is!’ do not believe it
Matthew 24:24-26
See, I have told you (disciples) beforehand. 26So, if they say to you (disciples), ‘Look, he is in the wilderness,’ do not go out.
Matthew 24:32
“From the fig tree learn its lesson: as soon as its branch becomes tender and puts out its leaves, you (disciples) know that summer is near.
Matthew 24:33
So also, when you (disciples) see all these things, you know that he is near, at the very gates.
Matthew 24:34
Truly, I say to you (disciples), this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.

Which generation was Jesus talking about then that would see all these things? That would experience wars and rumors of wars, persecution, the temple destruction, false messiahs?

With the context, it's pretty clear he is talking about the generation of his disciples, especially when its compared to other verses:

In the previous chapter, Matthew 23:36, Jesus says: Truly, I say to you (scribes and pharisees), all these things will come upon this generation.

Was Jesus talking to a future generation of scribes and pharisees and not the one that was presently in front of him?

LUke 17:22-25
And he said to the disciples, “The days are coming when you will desire to see one of the days of the Son of Man, and you will not see it. 23And they will say to you, ‘Look, there!’ or ‘Look, here!’ Do not go out or follow them.24For as the lightning flashes and lights up the sky from one side to the other, so will the Son of Man be in his day.i25But first he must suffer many things and be rejected by this generation.

Is Jesus supposed to suffer under a future generation and not the one he was currently present with?



Matthew 16:28
Truly, I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.”

Matthew 10:23
When they persecute you in one town, flee to the next, for truly, I say to you, you will not have gone through all the towns of Israel before the Son of Man comes.

Matthew 26:64
4“You have said it yourself,” Jesus answered. “But I say to all of you, from now on you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven.”g

claninja said:

n the previous chapter, Matthew 23:36, Jesus says: Truly, I say to you (scribes and pharisees), all these things will come upon this generation.

Was Jesus talking to a future generation of scribes and pharisees and not the one that was presently in front of him?

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In Matthew 23:36-38, Jesus was speaking of the destruction of the temple in 70 AD... and of that generation.

Woe to you pharisees, speaking of them, repeatedly, in the earlier verses.

37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.



But Jesus did not give them a parable to identify that generation because he was plainly talking about events regarding them.

Differently - in regards to Matthew 24, the time of the end, Jesus did give a parable.

What is the fig tree?

Earlier, in chapter 21, the next morning, after riding into Jerusalem the previous day, hailed as the messiah by his followers, Jesus and the disciples about to enter Jerusalem again, he spoke to a fig tree beside the road.

Matthew 21:19 And when he saw a fig tree in the way, he came to it, and found nothing thereon, but leaves only, and said unto it, Let no fruit grow on thee henceforward for ever. And presently the fig tree withered away.

Jesus knowing that he would be rejected by that generation of Jerusalem.

Jerusalem, thus, is the fig tree in the parable of the fig tree generation of disciples - time of the end events. We are those disciples!

Jerusalem, its branches tender putting forth leaves, now back in the hands of the Jews 1967,

claninja said:

There have been plans for a third temple for a long time. This isn't anything new.

So is the old covenant still valid today? Will the old covenant come back to replace the new covenant?

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The old covenant is no longer relevant for believing Christians. Those in Christ Jesus have the New Covenant of His Blood shed on the cross. This is elementary knowledge on a Christian forum.

For the orthodox Jews in Jerusalem who still reject Jesus Christ (and thus the New Covenant), the old covenant will be re-instituted in Jerusalem by them when they build the third temple, and it will be so to fulfill the Daniel prophecy of sacrifices existing in order for the vile person to work the events of Dan.11.

Douggg said:

In Matthew 23:36-38, Jesus was speaking of the destruction of the temple in 70 AD... and of that generation.

Woe to you pharisees, speaking of them, repeatedly, in the earlier verses.

37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

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Absolutely agree. From the parable of the wicked tenants in Matthew 21 to the parable of the wedding feast in Matthew 22 to the woes in Matthew 23, Jesus is prophesying the destruction of Jerusalem. The kingdom is going to be taken from false Israel and given to true Israel (body of Christ).

Where we disagree is on Matthew 24. First there is no such language that hints to a future generation, especially considering the amount of "you" he uses through out it. It's only been stretched to that meaning as people don't believe coming of Christ has occurred. Secondly, contextually, it would make no sense to jump from 70AD to 2000+ years later. Thirdly, if these warnings were not to Jesus's disciples, what purpose would the disciples need to hear this for, if it wouldn't happen for 2000 some years later?

Douggg said:

Differently - in regards to Matthew 24, the time of the end, Jesus did give a parable.

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presence or absence of parables do not have to mean end times.

Douggg said:

What is the fig tree?

Earlier, in chapter 21, the next morning, after riding into Jerusalem the previous day, hailed as the messiah by his followers, Jesus and the disciples about to enter Jerusalem again, he spoke to a fig tree beside the road.

Matthew 21:19 And when he saw a fig tree in the way, he came to it, and found nothing thereon, but leaves only, and said unto it, Let no fruit grow on thee henceforward for ever. And presently the fig tree withered away.

Jesus knowing that the would be rejected by that generation of Jerusalem.

Jerusalem, thus, is the fig tree in the parable of the fig tree generation of disciples

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Absolutely agree with you. Jerusalem is the fig tree.

So what was physical Jerusalem back during the time of the apostles?

Galatians 4:25
Now Hagar stands for Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present-day Jerusalem, because she is in slavery with her children.

And what would happen to this slave that corresponds to the then present day Jerusalem?



Galatians 4:30
But what does the Scripture say? “Expel the slave woman and her son, for the slave woman’s son will never share in the inheritance with the free woman’s son.

Physical-slave Jerusalem was expelled in 70AD and will never share the inheritance of Christ and his body. The old covenant is vanished and the new covenant is here.

Christ is the inheritor and if you are part of Christ's body (one with Christ) then you will also be an inheritor.

Galatians 3:28-29
There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed and heirs according to the promise.

Douggg said:

Jerusalem, its branches tender putting forth leaves, now back in the hands of the Jews 1967,

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True Israel is not physical. 70AD ended physical Israel and the Old covenant. Whether Israel is a state now does not matter to the body of Christ, for those of us in the body are one regardless of country or nationality.

Davy said:

For the orthodox Jews in Jerusalem who still reject Jesus Christ (and thus the New Covenant), the old covenant will be re-instituted in Jerusalem by them when they build the third temple, and it will be so to fulfill the Daniel prophecy of sacrifices existing in order for the vile person to work the events of Dan.11.

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Re instituting temple worship with animal sacrifices would in itself be an abomination and false worship of the one true God, as Christ fulfilled the law.

then he added, “Behold, I have come to do your will.” He does away with the first in order to establish the second. And by that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
Hebrews 10:9-10

If the first is re established, it is under the mistake of men, not the instruction of God.

LivingRightInWrongWorld said:

Then Jesus will come back and all Jews will mourn for denying Him in the first place.

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The Spirit was poured out on "all the house of Israel" on the Day of Pentecost.


Act 2:22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:


Act 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
Act 2:37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? (They "mourned" for what they had done by being "pricked in their heart".)
Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Act 2:39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
Act 2:40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
Act 2:41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.



Rom 9:27 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:

A remnant of all the house of Israel mourned for the One they had seen pierced just a few weeks earlier, on the Day of Pentecost.

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claninja said:

presence or absence of parables do not have to mean end times.

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In the case of Matthew 24 and that particular parable, it does mean the end times because it is associated with events following verse 14.....

Matthew 24:
14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand )

Back in Daniel 12,

Daniel 12:
4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro *, and knowledge shall be increased **.



11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.


The parable of the fig tree - Jerusalem back in the hands of the Jews 1967.

*Travel by cars, airplanes, trains - ** computers, cell phones, tv, radio, internet.

Douggg said:

In the case of Matthew 24 and that particular parable, it does mean the end times because it is associated with events following verse 14.....

Matthew 24:
14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

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The apostles had preached the gospel to the all the known world before the old covenant officially ended in 70AD

if indeed you continue in the faith, stable and steadfast, not shifting from the hope of the gospel that you heard, which has been proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, became a minister.
Colossians 1:23

The apostles believed they were living in the last days and end of the age.

Now these things happened to them as an example, but they were written down for our instruction, on whom the end of the ages has come.
1 Corinthians 10:11


For these people are not drunk, as you suppose, since it is only the third hour of the day. But this is what was uttered through the prophet Joel: “‘And in the last days it shall be, God declares, that I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh, and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams;
Acts 2:15-17

It’s important to understand what the end is, it is not the physical world, but the end of the old covenant age.

For if it is truly the physical heavens and earth that must pass away, then we are still under the law and it is not fulfilled

18 For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished.
Matthew 5:18

Douggg said:

15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand )

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According to Josephus in his work, the wars of the Jews: book 6 chapter 6 section 1,the Romans placed Aquila ensigns ( eagle statues) in the temple, sacrificed in the temple, and named Titus imperator.

Luke, who often explains things for gentile readers, gives us this:

20 “But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation has come near.
Luke 21:20

This happened during the Jewish roman war.

Douggg said:

But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro *, and knowledge shall be increased **.

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Douggg said:

Travel by cars, airplanes, trains - ** computers, cell phones, tv, radio, internet.

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You are assuming the knowledge that is increased has to do with technology.

The author does not tell what this knowledge is explicitly. But as the previous vs is about those who teach will shine, I’m making the assumption that the knowledge= the true knowledge of God, which became especially increased when the spirit was poured out at Pentecost

And those teaching do shine as the brightness of the expanse, and those justifying the multitude as stars to the age and for ever.
Daniel 12:3

Douggg said:

The parable of the fig tree - Jerusalem back in the hands of the Jews 1967.

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Again:
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
Galatians 3:28

claninja said:

You are assuming the knowledge that is increased has to do with technology.

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Any area, not just technology. Take a look at the medical field. Or oceanography. Or weather.