The Meaning of Discipleship

Citizen of the Kingdom

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Jesus said that faith is one of the weightier matters of the Law (Matthew 23:23) and obedience to God is straightforwardly about having faith in Him to teach us how to walk in His ways, so whenever the Bible speaks about someone obeying God's commands or someone who is righteous, we should take it to be talking about someone who is acting in faith and has the righteousness of God unless it is otherwise noted. For example, Noah found grace in the eyes of God (Genesis 6:8), so it was no accident that he was righteous, but rather he was righteous because he had been trained by grace and obeyed through faith.
And yet again there is only One who can declare them righteous, and it's not based on anything but the transformation process, right?
 
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Soyeong

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Thought #1: I think there is risk in a strict literalist read of Paul's statement. I reject that we need to imitate a middle man; rather I submit the sufficiency of imitating Christ. In this day and age, I think we should take great care about what Christian we choose to imitate, for some are wolves in sheep's clothing.

I think Paul was saying that we should imitate him only insofar as he imitated Christ. When Jesus that we should not call anyone "Father", he was saying that they should make disciples of him, not of themselves.

Thought #2: Let's not make discipleship too complicated. Jesus called a bunch of fishermen who immediately put down their nets and followed him. No questions asked. No understanding of "discipleship." No Christianforums.com on which to try to understand discipleship. They just went.

I would agree, except I think that they would have had a very good understanding of what discipleship was.
 
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Soyeong

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And yet again there is only One who can declare them righteous, and it's not based on anything but the transformation process, right?

As with the example with Noah, the one and only way that there has ever been to become righteous is by grace through faith. According to Psalms 119:29, David asked God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey His Law, so God shows His grace to us by teaching us how to walk in His ways, and we are declared righteous when we respond in faith by willingly submitting to His commands. In other words, the Law is God's instructions for how someone who has been declared righteous ought to therefore act by grace through faith, not instructions for how to be declared righteous. Living by faith is always associated with a willingness to submit to God's will as made known through His commands, such as with every example of saving faith listed in Hebrews 11.
 
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Citizen of the Kingdom

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... Living by faith is always associated with a willingness to submit to God's will as made known through His commands, such as with every example of saving faith listed in Hebrews 11.
Hebrews 1 says that in this day all is made known thru His Son where previously it was made known thru the prophets and various other means.
In the maintainance of the truth to prevent decline, Paul said it's God's will that all His loved ones come to a full knowledge of truth. That the truth is to be maintained thru scripture 1 Timothy 2:15, that scripture is to be unfolded with precision 2 Timothy 2:15, and that those who deviate from that truth, the reality of what he taught presented in the scriptures, should return to it. 2 Timothy 2:25

What is the fullness of truth that Paul taught? Was it according to the letter of the law or the spirit of the law?
 
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Soyeong

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Hebrews 1 says that in this day all is made known thru His Son where previously it was made known thru the prophets and various other means.
In the maintainance of the truth to prevent decline, Paul said it's God's will that all His loved ones come to a full knowledge of truth. That the truth is to be maintained thru scripture 1 Timothy 2:15, that scripture is to be unfolded with precision 2 Timothy 2:15, and that those who deviate from that truth, the reality of what he taught presented in the scriptures, should return to it. 2 Timothy 2:25

What is the fullness of truth that Paul taught? Was it according to the letter of the law or the spirit of the law?

Before I can answer your question, we need to be on the same page in regard to what it means to follow the letter of the law vs the spirit. This distinction is reflected in modern discussion about law enforcement and is not in regard to whether or not to obey it, but in the manner in which it is obeyed with respect to its intent. For example:

Leviticus 19:12 You shall not swear by my name falsely, and so profane the name of your God: I am the LORD.

Someone who is following the spirit of this law will understand the intent that they are not to swear falsely, whereas someone who is focused on obey the letter of the Law as it is written will understand that they can swear falsely just so long as they don't do so by God's name. However, someone can still outwardly obey a law according to its intent, while missing that the whole point of obedience to God's commands is to grow in a relationship with Him based on faith and love. In Philippians 3:8, Paul counted his obedience to the Law without having a focus on growing in a relationship with Christ to be worthless because he was missing the whole point. So while we ought to obey the commands of our God, He has always disdained in when His people honored him with their lips while their hearts were far from him, so I do not think that His commands were ever intended to obeyed outward and legalistically according to the letter without regard to their intent of growing in a relationship with Him based on faith and love. So the fullness of truth that Paul taught was obedience to the Law according to the spirit.
 
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Citizen of the Kingdom

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To be on the same page intent is acting in a particular manner for a specific reason using a certain means to reach an end. It's a mental attitude that an individual acts upon so therefore isn't directly provable but must be inferred from surrounding facts and circumstances. It's a state of mind with which the act is done or omitted. Differing from motive, which is what prompts a person to act or to fail to act.

An attitude that in Christian terms is referred to as circumcision of the heart. Outward acts of the old circumcision covenant has been replaced with the covenant of inner acts. The spirit of the law takes the law and applies it to the heart where Christ abides and in yielding (which is the state of mind) to the law in obedience it causes growth within. Something the old law could never do.

Romans 2:28-29
For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
 
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Soyeong

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To be on the same page intent is acting in a particular manner for a specific reason using a certain means to reach an end. It's a mental attitude that an individual acts upon so therefore isn't directly provable but must be inferred from surrounding facts and circumstances. It's a state of mind with which the act is done or omitted. Differing from motive, which is what prompts a person to act or to fail to act.

An attitude that in Christian terms is referred to as circumcision of the heart. Outward acts of the old circumcision covenant has been replaced with the covenant of inner acts. The spirit of the law takes the law and applies it to the heart where Christ abides and in yielding (which is the state of mind) to the law in obedience it causes growth within. Something the old law could never do.

Romans 2:28-29
For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

According to Romans 2:26, the way to recognize whether a Gentile has a circumcised heart is by their observance of the Law, which is the same way to tell for a Jew (Deuteronomy 30:6). God has always disdained it when His people honored him with their lips while their hearts were far from Him (Isaiah 29:13), so HE has always been primarily concerned with where our heart is at and obedience to His commands has always been about growing in a relationship with Him based on faith and love. In Romans 10:4, the goal of the Law is a relationship with Christ for righteousness for everyone who has faith, and the Spirit lead us to obey the Law towards that end (Ezekiel 36:26-27). The Law was given as instructions for how to do what is righteous, not as instructions for how to become righteous, so the one and only way that there has ever been to become righteous is by grace through faith, and by the same grace through the same faith we are therefore required to be careful to obey all of God's commands.
 
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joshcorn

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Paul in the bible fallowed the Hebrew principle of being yoked to a Rabbi,Jesus. Jesus was His teacher and covering. When you are yoked to Jesus you walk in His foot steeps. Do a bible search where it says walk in my ways and who did. These people walk in the supernatural realms of God. Paul also said He served God with His spirit. Serving God in the spirit is not some kind of mental attitude. He stepped into the spiritual realm. Many people are doing this today including myself. The reason my Christians can not see this let alone do it is because they need deliverance of religious spirit. Must Denominations are under the same demonic influence.

Then there is the Pharisee spirit in the church.

Matthew 23

Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the door of the kingdom of heaven in people's faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to.
 
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Paul in the bible fallowed the Hebrew principle of being yoked to a Rabbi,Jesus. Jesus was His teacher and covering. When you are yoked to Jesus you walk in His foot steeps. Do a bible search where it says walk in my ways and who did. These people walk in the supernatural realms of God. Paul also said He served God with His spirit. Serving God in the spirit is not some kind of mental attitude. He stepped into the spiritual realm. Many people are doing this today including myself. The reason my Christians can not see this let alone do it is because they need deliverance of religious spirit. Must Denominations are under the same demonic influence.

Then there is the Pharisee spirit in the church.

Matthew 23

Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the door of the kingdom of heaven in people's faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to.
In letting your answer to God be yah or nay your giving mental consent to God in your life. Have you been 14 yrs thinking about this as Paul did? If so what in the 3rd heaven do you do?
 
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joshcorn

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The third heaven is a wrong translation. Where in the bible do they talk about first and second Heaven. The correct translation is, into the provisions of God.
The correct way to understand it is,Starting at the bottom. Kingdom of the earth,Kingdom of God,Kingdom of Heaven,then Heaven and three more above that.
As to what I do. I am walking in The Kingdom of God and the Kingdom of Heaven learning sonship. I spent the first 25 year walking in the Kingdom of the earth
 
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The third heaven is a wrong translation. Where in the bible do they talk about first and second Heaven. The correct translation is, into the provisions of God.
The correct way to understand it is,Starting at the bottom. Kingdom of the earth,Kingdom of God,Kingdom of Heaven,then Heaven and three more above that.
As to what I do. I am walking in The Kingdom of God and the Kingdom of Heaven learning sonship. I spent the first 25 year walking in the Kingdom of the earth
How do you scripturally substantiate that?
 
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Sola1517

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However, no amount of obedience to God's commands will ever cause someone who is not righteous to become righteous because the one and only way that there has ever been to become righteous is by grace through faith,
Exactly. So even those who act righteous are not/may not be righteous, therefore they are not righteous because in God's eyes righteousness is not based on deeds.
There are verses that speak about us also being judged according to what we have done (Romans 2:6, 2 Corinthians 5:10)
Romans 2:1-11 is about God's judgement on sinners. Read it closely.
2 Corinthians 5 is speaking specifically to Christians about how there is liberation from the physical body through death. Verse 10 is actually saying once saved always saved.
 
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joshcorn

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MATTHEW 4:8
Again, the devil took Him up onto an exceeding high mountain, and showed Him all the kingdoms of the world and the glory of them,

Here Is Jesus moving in the spirit. There are no mountains in Jerusalem height enough to see all the Kingdoms of the earth.
It was a spiritual mountain. When the bible talks about mountains most of them are spirit mountains. Example, the mountain of the Lord is above all other mountains. A King seats on a mountain. We are kings according to the bible. Jesus is The King of Kings.Jesus said we would do what He did and greater things. Jesus set the example of walking in the spirit.
 
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Sola1517

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Thought #1: I think there is risk in a strict literalist read of Paul's statement. I reject that we need to imitate a middle man; rather I submit the sufficiency of imitating Christ. In this day and age, I think we should take great care about what Christian we choose to imitate, for some are wolves in sheep's clothing.

Thought #2: Let's not make discipleship too complicated. Jesus called a bunch of fishermen who immediately put down their nets and followed him. No questions asked. No understanding of "discipleship." No Christianforums.com on which to try to understand discipleship. They just went.
Well, it is true that Scripture was incomplete at the time of Paul's writing. Point taken.
 
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joshcorn

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Sorry that makes no sense to me in context of the conversation. (godcamelgod)
Sorry that makes no sense to me in context of the conversation. (godcamelgod)
Let me give you a real life example. A few months ago I decided to call a friend I have not talked to for many years. You see he lives on the west coast of Canada and 15 years ago I moved to the east coast of Canada.
He told me that three years ago He was was diagnose with cancer and He had only about three weeks to live. He prayed every night asking God why. Then one night He really cried out to God and then He found Himself,Body soul and spirit before God. He did not till me about when on between Him and God. When he returned to earth there was no cancer. That is what I mean by being count up into the provisions of God.
 
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Citizen of the Kingdom

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Let me give you a real life example. A few months ago I decided to call a friend I have not talked to for many years. You see he lives on the west coast of Canada and 15 years ago I moved to the east coast of Canada.
He told me that three years ago He was was diagnose with cancer and He had only about three weeks to live. He prayed every night asking God why. Then one night He really cried out to God and then He found Himself,Body soul and spirit before God. He did not till me about when on between Him and God. When he returned to earth there was no cancer. That is what I mean by being count up into the provisions of God.
ok
 
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