God is not going to answer all our ethical questions

JOYFUL-ONE

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If have neither hope for nor a desire for a metaphysical realm or hypothetical god.

You asked a question about how God could test our faith if he answered our questions. My answer is that whether we can imagine how or not, an omniscient god could and an omnipotent god could make it happen.

Also, surely things like Tsunamis that kill 250,000 people could test one's faith and that has nothing to do with answering our questions.

And, my comment that I'd settle for one: your question said "all". As an atheist I don't think he's answered any questions. So even one would be an improvement.
(1)Do I sense the inference that a good and loving God would not allow 'evil' tsunamis, etc? But there can be no evil without a good yardstick to measure evil by. And there can be no good with moral law. and no moral law without a lawgiver. So for the atheist good and evil do not exist. Men's endless opinions yes but not fixed moral law.
Atheism has only matter to work with, not morality--that's sneaking outside the physical....borrowing from God.
(2) God has answered many Q! God has some 10+ reasons and causes for suffering in His Word for example. Hungry people go where the food is.
 
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Halbhh

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So then, with that reasoning, all of these religions continue to capture something that is real genuine, and always-true, and christianity does not stand alone in the "survival of the fittest" contest.

Yes, that's right. But there's a similarity they have which is an interesting point to gain, and then proceed further from in time:

They are each doing some version of "love one another".

In Hindu things I've attended (about a dozen, for usually 1-3 hours each), here in the U.S., that love one another takes the form of celebrating together in intentional mutual approval and celebration which they gather together in order to do with each other.

In Buddhism, the emphasized virtue "compassion" is of course one way to do love for others.

In Islam, one thing that happens is a great deal of respect and care about others, and also there is a welcoming in the home. Also, usually a considerable anger when other people that are Muslim are mistreated or disrespected.

Now, since they are all doing "love one another" -- that means that this is likely the most key (or an essential, crucial) truth that supports them all.

Yes? Logical to you?
 
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(1)Do I sense the inference that a good and loving God would not allow 'evil' tsunamis, etc?

I wasn't bringing up the problem of evil. Your question was how would God test our faith if he answered our questions. My answer is that natural disasters challenge people's faith. Answering our questions would not negate the challenge to one's faith that a tsunami would bring.

Atheism has only matter to work with, not morality--that's sneaking outside the physical....borrowing from God.
I know this is your thread, but this isn't really the subject of this thread.

(2) God has answered many Q! God has some 10+ reasons and causes for suffering in His Word for example. Hungry people go where the food is.

You're free to believe this. However, in my experience, this isn't true.
 
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ananda

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They are each doing some version of "love one another". In Buddhism, the emphasized virtue "compassion" is of course one way to do love for others. Now, since they are all doing "love one another" -- that means that this is likely the most key (or an essential, crucial) truth that supports them all.
Love & compassion is not the highest/most key/essential/crucial virtue or truth in Buddhism.
 
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Halbhh

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Love & compassion is not the highest/most key/essential/crucial virtue or truth in Buddhism.

Please tell us more as you see it. While we know compassion is a key Buddhist virtue, I'm always willing to hear/learn more about what matters to people. Dharma seems to have some strong parallel to what is in the Bible, but I'm delighted to hear about it from someone else's point of view.
 
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Yes, I fall short at times. Your quote caught my eye: May I ask, Does your church teach that the sinner's guilt can all be cleansed in a one time event as we find in Jn 8.11; Eph 1.7; Tit 3.5; Rom 8.1?

We all fall short. The irony is that the closer to God we get, the more aware of our shortcomings we become. :)

And you may always ask me anything. :)

But that's not easy to answer fully in a way that Baptist theology is likely to understand in a brief post. I don't say that to be condescending. But Eastern and western thought are quite different.

Christ's atonement was a one-time event, yes, and in that moment "it was finished".

However, we don't view salvation as a simple "prayer and done" moment in time, with no further need for grace. I realize some Baptists don't either. But we would refer to that event as "conversion". But salvation for us, involves a lifelong journey (if we continue to live), cooperating with grace of God to be ACTUALLY healed from our sin, ACTUALLY made like Christ (to whatever degree possible). We expect it to include real change. It is not simply being viewed by God as being different when we aren't.

Salvation is not a past-tense thing until we stand before Christ and He judges us so. We believe apostasy is possible - we don't believe God forcefully retains anyone against their will - but we also can experience assurance that we are indeed on the path. We don't speak of future assurance because that would be prideful assertion of our impossibility to apostatize.


In short, what you might refer to as "sanctification" is part of salvation for us.

This does not mean God cannot save right at the point of death, with no opportunity for sanctification on earth - the thief on the cross and many torturer-become-convert who were immediately martyred on the spot prove that He can.

But we believe the normal process of salvation absolutely includes walking out one's faith, and remaining faithful. We ignore that at our peril. Though I will be careful to say that nothing we can do can "purchase" our salvation. That's not what I mean. It's more like - what kind of person will we actually BE when we stand before God? How will we experience His presence? In a sense, we judge ourselves.

It isn't just a belief-test. Even the demons believe, and tremble. (I'm not saying that you believe it is, just a general comment.)

This is the teaching we have held since the time of the Apostles. I hope that answers your question. :)

God be with you.
 
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ananda

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Please tell us more as you see it. While we know compassion is a key Buddhist virtue, I'm always willing to hear/learn more about what matters to people. Dharma seems to have some strong parallel to what is in the Bible, but I'm delighted to hear about it from someone else's point of view.
The four brahma-viharas (loving-kindness, compassion, empathetic joy, and equanimity) are considered extremely high goals/states of mind along the Buddhist Path, but they are not the final goal (nibbana). The brahma-viharas each possess a small measure of dukkha/suffering, whereas nibbana does not.
 
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Halbhh

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The four brahma-viharas (loving-kindness, compassion, empathetic joy, and equanimity) are considered extremely high goals/states of mind along the Buddhist Path, but they are not the final goal (nibbana). The brahma-viharas each possess a small measure of dukkha/suffering, whereas nibbana does not.

We are also walking a path with compassion, empathetic joy, kindness, and equanimity * -- I can show you in our scripture examples for each -- and they are our instructions, and we also expect some suffering on this path here during this life also.

And this path is not the final goal for us, and ultimately while our suffering on the emotional level in this Life is reduced greatly as we walk on our path doing as Jesus said to do, we also are progressing to arrive at a future life in which there is no more suffering, but only joy and empathetic joy and love, and more, transcendent bliss, in the life to come.

---------
* -- We are told that we can know if someone is following Jesus according to their fruit -- these very 4 are a good statement of that. Since there are about 2 billion Christians, you can expect some will be doing this poorly, and some well.
 
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ananda

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We are also walking a path with compassion, empathetic joy, kindness, and equanimity -- I can show you in our scripture examples for each -- and they are our instructions, and we also expect some suffering on this path here during this life also.
I don't deny that, I was merely pointing out that love/compassion is not the most essential truth in Buddhism.

And this path is not the final goal for us, and ultimately while our suffering on the emotional level in this Life is reduced greatly as we walk on our path doing as Jesus said to do, we also are progressing to arrive at a future life in which there is no more suffering, but only joy and empathetic joy and love, and more, transcendent bliss, without any suffering at all, in the life to come.
I do hope you find that is the case! I could not believe blindly in that anymore, myself.
 
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Halbhh

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I don't deny that, I was merely pointing out that love/compassion is not the most essential truth in Buddhism.

I do hope you find that is the case! I could not believe blindly in that anymore, myself.

Please see the note I added at the bottom too, above.

It's interesting that love is many things. Love can be considered a feeling, or it can be consider doing actions, like these actions:

"So in everything, do to others as you would have them do to you, for this sums up the law and the prophets."

Love as actions.

So, love can take many forms, but Christians, those portion (the portion out of the huge traditional grouping of diverse people only some of whom even know what Christ said) who are following Christ well and doing as He said to do, will show love in actions -- kindness, empathetic joy, compassion, aid.
 
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ananda

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Please see the note I added at the bottom too, above.

It's interesting that love is many things. Love can be considered a feeling, or it can be consider doing actions, like these actions:

"So in everything, do to others as you would have them do to you, for this sums up the law and the prophets."

Love as actions.

So, love can take many forms, but Christians, those portion (the portion out of the huge traditional grouping of diverse people only some of whom even know what Christ said) who are following Christ well and doing as He said to do, will show love in actions -- kindness, empathetic joy, compassion, aid.
How do you reconcile this with verses such as Luke 19:27?
 
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If God answered all our questions how could He still test our faith as he intends?

"God" is not going to answer any of our questions...ethical or otherwise. Nor is He going to 'test our faith'.

Creating ethics and 'testing faith' is the exclusive domain of earth bound religions.
 
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Halbhh

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How do you reconcile this with verses such as Luke 19:27?

Thankyou for asking about a difficult question -- one of the more difficult parables to interpret I think -- meaningful to you. This one turns out to need having read more of the Gospels, to get the references and interpret the parable. Let's look at the verse and see.

Luke 19:27 is inside the Parable of the Ten Minas.

Verses in parables have their only meaning solely as part of the parable as a whole.

Just like if you had a sentence taken from a poem, you need the poem to get the meaning of the sentence.

Sometimes a parable also is in immediate response to a situation, so we have to look for that just in case, also.

Ok, let's look --

We see the Parable is verses 11 through 27, but we notice the parable begins with a connector-- "While they were listening to this," -- so we'd better include what the "this" is they were listening to, just in case we need it (even though it looks like it's not needed, experience shows sometimes that extra context helps), so we see when looking for that already happening situation, the entire time/situation begins at verse 1. I will underline what jumps out as crucial context also.

Altogether we have:
----------------
1 Jesus entered Jericho and was passing through. 2 A man was there by the name of Zacchaeus; he was a chief tax collector and was wealthy. 3 He wanted to see who Jesus was, but because he was short he could not see over the crowd. 4 So he ran ahead and climbed a sycamore-fig tree to see him, since Jesus was coming that way.

5 When Jesus reached the spot, he looked up and said to him, “Zacchaeus, come down immediately. I must stay at your house today.” 6 So he came down at once and welcomed him gladly.

7 All the people saw this and began to mutter, “He has gone to be the guest of a sinner.”

8 But Zacchaeus stood up and said to the Lord, “Look, Lord! Here and now I give half of my possessions to the poor, and if I have cheated anybody out of anything, I will pay back four times the amount.”

9 Jesus said to him, “Today salvation has come to this house, because this man, too, is a son of Abraham. 10 For the Son of Man came to seek and to save the lost.”

The Parable of the Ten Minas

11 While they were listening to this, he went on to tell them a parable, because he was near Jerusalem and the people thought that the kingdom of God was going to appear at once. 12 He said: “A man of noble birth went to a distant country to have himself appointed king and then to return. 13 So he called ten of his servants and gave them ten minas.a ‘Put this money to work,’ he said, ‘until I come back.’

14 “But his subjects hated him and sent a delegation after him to say, ‘We don’t want this man to be our king.’

15“He was made king, however, and returned home. Then he sent for the servants to whom he had given the money, in order to find out what they had gained with it.

16“The first one came and said, ‘Sir, your mina has earned ten more.’

17“ ‘Well done, my good servant!’ his master replied. ‘Because you have been trustworthy in a very small matter, take charge of ten cities.’

18“The second came and said, ‘Sir, your mina has earned five more.’

19“His master answered, ‘You take charge of five cities.’

20“Then another servant came and said, ‘Sir, here is your mina; I have kept it laid away in a piece of cloth. 21I was afraid of you, because you are a hard man. You take out what you did not put in and reap what you did not sow.’

22“His master replied, ‘I will judge you by your own words, you wicked servant! You knew, did you, that I am a hard man, taking out what I did not put in, and reaping what I did not sow? 23 Why then didn’t you put my money on deposit, so that when I came back, I could have collected it with interest?’

24“Then he said to those standing by, ‘Take his mina away from him and give it to the one who has ten minas.’

25“ ‘Sir,’ they said, ‘he already has ten!’

26 “He replied, ‘I tell you that to everyone who has, more will be given, but as for the one who has nothing, even what they have will be taken away. 27 But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them—bring them here and kill them in front of me.’ ”
------------

Some things we can see right off: in the parable the man of noble birth must be Christ Himself, and He is going to leave, and then come back, in the parable.

Notice the profound distrust of the 'wicked servant' -- this one truly did not trust, did not have faith in the Master as good and rewarding those who believed in him, but distrusted instead.

Instead of faith, he had distrust.

Also, this same parable is also in the Gospel of Matthew, we see the same Parable with slightly different wording, in Matthew 25:14-30, so we can look at that, and we see the final verse is the parallel verse, another version of Luke 19:27. It reads in Matthew:

28 “ ‘So take the bag of gold from him and give it to the one who has ten bags. 29 For whoever has will be given more, and they will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what they have will be taken from them. 30 And throw that worthless servant outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’"

--------
This helps, since the familiar wording of throwing into the (outer) darkness, where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth is the outcome of failing to gain salvation, as shown in
chapter 8 --

5 When Jesus had entered Capernaum, a centurion came to him, asking for help. 6 “Lord,” he said, “my servant lies at home paralyzed, suffering terribly.”

7 Jesus said to him, “Shall I come and heal him?”

8 The centurion replied, “Lord, I do not deserve to have you come under my roof. But just say the word, and my servant will be healed. 9 For I myself am a man under authority, with soldiers under me. I tell this one, ‘Go,’ and he goes; and that one, ‘Come,’ and he comes. I say to my servant, ‘Do this,’ and he does it.”

10 When Jesus heard this, he was amazed and said to those following him, “Truly I tell you, I have not found anyone in Israel with such great faith. 11 I say to you that many will come from the east and the west, and will take their places at the feast with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven. 12 But the subjects of the kingdom will be thrown outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”

13 Then Jesus said to the centurion, “Go! Let it be done just as you believed it would.” And his servant was healed at that moment.
-------

There!

Now we have that clear message: those in Israel, the chosen people -- they who were up till then the only subjects of the kingdom -- those in Israel who did not have real faith in God had rejected the prophets over and over, as Christ pointed out several times in the gospels. And...here we see those in Israel without faith in God -- are going to be replaced in the Kingdom of Heaven

-------

Now we are in a better place, having found the same parable in Matthew, and understanding the key wordings, to get the real meaning of Luke 19:27.

Do you see it?

Those in Israel without faith, who reject Christ also, because they are not believing in God truly to begin with (as pointed out in the Gospel of John), are in the final day of Judgement enemies not reconciled, and so what they had (the old covenant inheritance) will be taken away (they broke the covenant and lose their reward), and they will perish, and not gain eternal Life.

So, the parable is about faith -- in God -- that is trust. Those trusting God accept Christ Who says to us "love one another". Those without faith do not believe in Christ Who says "love one another".

And so therefore this parable is not only about Israel then. It's about all of us.

More, if we actually have faith, then we will use our abilities here on Earth in service, in faith/hope of the return of the noble one.

It's down to whether one believes in God, He Who rewards kindness and love and charity and doing right.

Or the opposite choice, which is to disbelieve in Good as the essential truth of existence.

One faces the existential question -- do you really believe in the Good, or instead distrust that the Creator is Good? The 'wicked servant' disbelieved in God -- the only true God, as He is, the Creator Who is good -- during this mortal life.

Because he did not believe, he did not bother to do the effort/work that faith would cause of using his abilities in service of the instructions of God -- "love your neighbor as yourself".

Those rejecting the good will perish, and that's an awful experience, which they will have deserved by rejecting Good, or the essence of Good.

He is real.

It's all for real, and it will all happen.
.
 
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JOYFUL-ONE

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"God" is not going to answer any of our questions...ethical or otherwise. Nor is He going to 'test our faith'.

Creating ethics and 'testing faith' is the exclusive domain of earth bound religions.
"Forever O Lord, Thy word is settled in heaven"
 
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ananda

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Thankyou for asking about a difficult question -- one of the more difficult parables to interpret I think -- meaningful to you. This one turns out to need having read more of the Gospels, to get the references and interpret the parable. Let's look at the verse and see.

Luke 19:27 is inside the Parable of the Ten Minas.

Verses in parables have their only meaning solely as part of the parable as a whole.

Just like if you had a sentence taken from a poem, you need the poem to get the meaning of the sentence.

Sometimes a parable also is in immediate response to a situation, so we have to look for that just in case, also.

Ok, let's look --

We see the Parable is verses 11 through 27, but we notice the parable begins with a connector-- "While they were listening to this," -- so we'd better include what the "this" is they were listening to, just in case we need it (even though it looks like it's not needed, experience shows sometimes that extra context helps), so we see when looking for that already happening situation, the entire time/situation begins at verse 1. I will underline what jumps out as crucial context also.

Altogether we have:
----------------
1 Jesus entered Jericho and was passing through. 2 A man was there by the name of Zacchaeus; he was a chief tax collector and was wealthy. 3 He wanted to see who Jesus was, but because he was short he could not see over the crowd. 4 So he ran ahead and climbed a sycamore-fig tree to see him, since Jesus was coming that way.

5 When Jesus reached the spot, he looked up and said to him, “Zacchaeus, come down immediately. I must stay at your house today.” 6 So he came down at once and welcomed him gladly.

7 All the people saw this and began to mutter, “He has gone to be the guest of a sinner.”

8 But Zacchaeus stood up and said to the Lord, “Look, Lord! Here and now I give half of my possessions to the poor, and if I have cheated anybody out of anything, I will pay back four times the amount.”

9 Jesus said to him, “Today salvation has come to this house, because this man, too, is a son of Abraham. 10 For the Son of Man came to seek and to save the lost.”

The Parable of the Ten Minas

11 While they were listening to this, he went on to tell them a parable, because he was near Jerusalem and the people thought that the kingdom of God was going to appear at once. 12 He said: “A man of noble birth went to a distant country to have himself appointed king and then to return. 13 So he called ten of his servants and gave them ten minas.a ‘Put this money to work,’ he said, ‘until I come back.’

14 “But his subjects hated him and sent a delegation after him to say, ‘We don’t want this man to be our king.’

15“He was made king, however, and returned home. Then he sent for the servants to whom he had given the money, in order to find out what they had gained with it.

16“The first one came and said, ‘Sir, your mina has earned ten more.’

17“ ‘Well done, my good servant!’ his master replied. ‘Because you have been trustworthy in a very small matter, take charge of ten cities.’

18“The second came and said, ‘Sir, your mina has earned five more.’

19“His master answered, ‘You take charge of five cities.’

20“Then another servant came and said, ‘Sir, here is your mina; I have kept it laid away in a piece of cloth. 21I was afraid of you, because you are a hard man. You take out what you did not put in and reap what you did not sow.’

22“His master replied, ‘I will judge you by your own words, you wicked servant! You knew, did you, that I am a hard man, taking out what I did not put in, and reaping what I did not sow? 23 Why then didn’t you put my money on deposit, so that when I came back, I could have collected it with interest?’

24“Then he said to those standing by, ‘Take his mina away from him and give it to the one who has ten minas.’

25“ ‘Sir,’ they said, ‘he already has ten!’

26 “He replied, ‘I tell you that to everyone who has, more will be given, but as for the one who has nothing, even what they have will be taken away. 27 But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them—bring them here and kill them in front of me.’ ”
------------

Some things we can see right off: in the parable the man of noble birth must be Christ Himself, and He is going to leave, and then come back, in the parable.

Notice the profound distrust of the 'wicked servant' -- this one truly did not trust, did not have faith in the Master as good and rewarding those who believed in him, but distrusted instead.

Instead of faith, he had distrust.

Also, this same parable is also in the Gospel of Matthew, we see the same Parable with slightly different wording, in Matthew 25:14-30, so we can look at that, and we see the final verse is the parallel verse, another version of Luke 19:27. It reads in Matthew:

28 “ ‘So take the bag of gold from him and give it to the one who has ten bags. 29 For whoever has will be given more, and they will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what they have will be taken from them. 30 And throw that worthless servant outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’"

--------
This helps, since the familiar wording of throwing into the (outer) darkness, where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth is the outcome of failing to gain salvation, as shown in
chapter 8 --

5 When Jesus had entered Capernaum, a centurion came to him, asking for help. 6 “Lord,” he said, “my servant lies at home paralyzed, suffering terribly.”

7 Jesus said to him, “Shall I come and heal him?”

8 The centurion replied, “Lord, I do not deserve to have you come under my roof. But just say the word, and my servant will be healed. 9 For I myself am a man under authority, with soldiers under me. I tell this one, ‘Go,’ and he goes; and that one, ‘Come,’ and he comes. I say to my servant, ‘Do this,’ and he does it.”

10 When Jesus heard this, he was amazed and said to those following him, “Truly I tell you, I have not found anyone in Israel with such great faith. 11 I say to you that many will come from the east and the west, and will take their places at the feast with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven. 12 But the subjects of the kingdom will be thrown outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”

13 Then Jesus said to the centurion, “Go! Let it be done just as you believed it would.” And his servant was healed at that moment.
-------

There!

Now we have that clear message: those in Israel, the chosen people -- they who were up till then the only subjects of the kingdom -- those in Israel who did not have real faith in God had rejected the prophets over and over, as Christ pointed out several times in the gospels. And...here we see those in Israel without faith in God -- are going to be replaced in the Kingdom of Heaven

-------

Now we are in a better place, having found the same parable in Matthew, and understanding the key wordings, to get the real meaning of Luke 19:27.

Do you see it?

Those in Israel without faith, who reject Christ also, because they are not believing in God truly to begin with (as pointed out in the Gospel of John), are in the final day of Judgement enemies not reconciled, and so what they had (the old covenant inheritance) will be taken away (they broke the covenant and lose their reward), and they will perish, and not gain eternal Life.

So, the parable is about faith -- in God -- that is trust. Those trusting God accept Christ Who says to us "love one another". Those without faith do not believe in Christ Who says "love one another".

And so therefore this parable is not only about Israel then. It's about all of us.

More, if we actually have faith, then we will use our abilities here on Earth in service, in faith/hope of the return of the noble one.

It's down to whether one believes in God, He Who rewards kindness and love and charity and doing right.

Or the opposite choice, which is to disbelieve in Good as the essential truth of existence.

One faces the existential question -- do you really believe in the Good, or instead distrust that the Creator is Good? The 'wicked servant' disbelieved in God -- the only true God, as He is, the Creator Who is good -- during this mortal life.

Because he did not believe, he did not bother to do the effort/work that faith would cause of using his abilities in service of the instructions of God -- "love your neighbor as yourself".

Those rejecting the good will perish, and that's an awful experience, which they will have deserved by rejecting Good, or the essence of Good.

He is real.

It's all for real, and it will all happen.
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Thanks. So Jesus' standard for himself is different from his standard for others?
 
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Halbhh

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Thanks. So Jesus' standard for himself is different from his standard for others?

I wouldn't know very much about that, because for one thing He is older than this world we understand. He is able to understand and see more than us. He has the way to Life, which He can lead us into.
 
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Eudaimonist

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Interesting - I appreciate the frankness but if a true atheist is content in his self-imposed maze---matter, time and space

It would only be a self-imposed maze if I had created all of matter, time, and space.

There is plenty that I don't know about reality. I hope that a valid epistemological procedure will answer more of those questions. The issue here is that I'm not convinced that Christians rely on a valid epistemological procedure, and "hoping" is certainly not an example of one. Hope doesn't create reality, and it doesn't generate justified, true beliefs.


eudaimonia,

Mark
 
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