The 7th trump in Rev is the last trump to sound. This is what Paul is speaking about when he speaks of the last trump happening when Christ returns. Christ returns at the 7th trump so last and 7th are the same exact trump.
I think you have made a wrong interpretation because when the 7th trumpet in Revelation 11 sounds, it signals the third woe - as the kingdoms of this world are taken from Satan's invisible kingdom. The final phase of God mystery begins. (Revelation 10:7)
The third woe is in Revelation 12, of Satan being cast down to earth. Babylon is fallen is fallen. When he is cast down, restricted to earth, there are a time, times, half times left in the 7 years.
Revelation 11: 14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.
15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
Revelation 12: 12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished fora time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
Paul's last trump is different. It is an expression based on when the children of Israel were traveling the wilderness refers to when the cloud moved that was the signal for the camp would assemble themselves, and a trumpet sounded to coordinate that they all moved in unison.
Exodus 40: 35 And Moses was not able to enter into the tent of the congregation, because the cloud abode thereon, and the glory of the LORD filled the tabernacle.
36 And when the cloud was taken up from over the tabernacle, the children of Israel went onward in all their journeys:
37 But if the cloud were not taken up, then they journeyed not till the day that it was taken up.
38 For the cloud of the LORD was upon the tabernacle by day, and fire was on it by night, in the sight of all the house of Israel, throughout all their journeys.
Numbers 10: 2 Make thee two trumpets of silver; of a whole piece shalt thou make them: that thou mayest use them for the calling of the assembly, and for the journeying of the camps.
The Seventh Trumpet is Tekiah (Trumpet) Gedolah (Great). It is the biggest Trumpet blast declaring the end!
It is sounded by the Lord, when he calls his bride up to Him.
No that is Not what the scripture says at all , you are adding to scripture to have it say what you want it to say !
As scripture makes it clear Paul is referring to the Last Trump in the series of blasts by a single person blowing a trumpet , there is a reason the Jewish FEAST Days exist and that is to declare accordance to the things of God , Jewish FEAST Days are not days where people gather to eat food like they do in America , Feast Days are time table of God
The 7th trumpet in Revelationdoes however relate to Joel 2:1-2 ““Blow a trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm on My holy mountain! Let all the inhabitants of the land tremble, for the day of the Lord is coming; surely it is near, a day of darkness and gloom, a day of clouds and thick darkness
The 7th trump in Rev is the last trump to sound. This is what Paul is speaking about when he speaks of the last trump happening when Christ returns. Christ returns at the 7th trump so last and 7th are the same exact trump.
That is incorrect , just merely an assumption
Paul was not speaking of the 7th angel when he spoke of the Last Trump ,
The 7th trumpet in Revelationdoes however relate to Joel 2:1-2 ““Blow a trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm on My holy mountain! Let all the inhabitants of the land tremble, for the day of the Lord is coming; surely it is near, a day of darkness and gloom, a day of clouds and thick darkness
The 7th trumpet in Revelation is one of woe for the time has come that great judgment has come , a time of great tribulation with earthquakes . great hail storms etc. The 7th trumpet in Revelation is referring to the Lord who is in heaven is enacting His authority on and over those in control on earth casting His wrath on the Antichrist and those who reject Christ as savoir.
Paul speaking of the last trump is telling us to comfort one another with his words of encouragement to the people referring that the “last trump” is a time of relief from troubles of life for followers of Christ
The last trump that Paul speaks of is represents Gods Voice -not the seventh angel trumpet
Exod19
16 And it came to pass on the third day in the morning, that there were thunders and lightnings, and a thick cloud upon the mount, and the voice of the trumpet exceeding loud; so that all the people that was in the camp trembled.
19 And when the voice of the trumpet sounded long, and waxed louder and louder, Moses spake, and God answered him by a voice.
Rev1
10 On the Lord’s Day I was in the Spirit, and I heard behind me a loud voice like a trumpet, 11 which said: “Write on a scroll what you see and send it to the seven churches: to Ephesus, Smyrna, Pergamum, Thyatira, Sardis, Philadelphia and Laodicea.” 12 I turned around to see the voice that was speaking to me. And when I turned I saw seven golden lampstands,
You can migrate what you believe to be exegesesly a "Small Portion", that is owing to my response and by using the same constructs I have provided, you will discover that it exegesesly fits like a glove.
Revelation 11 states prophets that have literal physical bodies that will die, bring literal plagues, lay in a physical street in a literal world dead in Jerusalem, as literal humans celebrate their death, they are raised in the sight of literal human eyes that will watch, as a literal earthquake takes place, with literal destruction in a literal Jerusalem where Jesus Christ was crucified.
I would not word it A Symbolic Representation, rather a contextually based representation of the text type in question, after all the book of Revelation is a book of symbols, is it not?
1The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signifiedit by his angel unto his servant John: (Revelation 1:1)
The word signified used in the Greek means....
Transliteration: sémainó
Definition: I signify, indicate, give a sign, make known.
To signify is to provide a symbolic meaning to the subject, place, event etc.
For example....the Red Dragon is the Devil. The red represents persecution and the Dragon represents the Devil. So when he opened a flood gate of people after the woman, who is the 1st Century Church, it was with the intent to persecute her.
Hence the Red Dragon is a symbol or is a term used to signify the persecuting Devil.
1Then I was given a measuring rod like a staff and was told, “Go and measure the temple of God and the altar, and count the number of worshipers there. 2But exclude the courtyard outside the temple. Do not measure it, because it has been given over to the nations, and they will trample the holy city for forty-two months.3And I will empower my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for a thousand two hundred sixty days, clothed in sackcloth.”
The Temple of God, post Pentecost is where the Holy Spirit dwells and it consists of the body of worshippers, hence John is told to measure the body of Christ, the Christians.
Those outside of the temple are the unbelieving nations of the world at large, who have not the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, so John is told that he should not measure them, because they are the ones who will trample the Holy City for a period of time.
Please don't focus and make literal a time period at this point, because it is not our intention to delve into timing, rather we are focussing on interpreting the symbols used to reveal truths about two groups of people, that is.....the saved within the protection of the God's Temple, who are included within the Holy City and those unsaved who are outside of its walls.
So immediately you will gather, that the Holy City accommodates the saved, within its walls. This Holy City is where the Temple of God is, hence it is the Church consisting of the body of believers. The Church is the Holy City Jerusalem.
The unsaved will trample the saved (body of believers) for a period of time.
So those two witnesses must be timely synchronised and congruently connected to the saved and their Commission is to prophesy. The word prophesy means to preach, for this is what John was instructed.....
Thou must prophesy again before many peoples, and nations, and tongues, and kings. (Revelation 10:11)
So, the two witnesses are preaching for the same duration the Chuch consisting of the body of believers existed, from the time they were measured.
So John, is preaching the gospel, so too are the two witnesses and since they are Commissioned to do so, then they too are preaching the gospel as John had instructed the seven churches in Asia Minor to do, to whom his letter was addressed to in the first place, right?
The two witnesses witnesses are the two Pillars on which the entire Church is empowered by, after all, it is part and parcel of the Great Commission to preach the gospel, as was instructed to John previously in Revelation 10:11.
Let me make it easy for you by carrying over to another post for the next paragraph........thanks
The Temple of God, post Pentecost is where the Holy Spirit dwells and it consists of the body of worshippers, hence John is told to measure the body of Christ, the Christians.
Those outside of the temple are the unbelieving nations of the world at large, who have not the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, so John is told that he should not measure them, because they are the ones who will trample the Holy City for a period of time.
Please don't focus and make literal a time period at this point, because it is not our intention to delve into timing, rather we are focussing on interpreting the symbols used to reveal truths about two groups of people, that is.....the saved within the protection of the God's Temple, who are included within the Holy City and those unsaved who are outside of its walls.
So immediately you will gather, that the Holy City accommodates the saved, within its walls. This Holy City is where the Temple of God is, hence it is the Church consisting of the body of believers. The Church is the Holy City Jerusalem.
The unsaved will trample the saved (body of believers) for a period of time.
So those two witnesses must be timely synchronised and congruently connected to the saved and their Commission is to prophesy. The word prophesy means to preach, for this is what John was instructed.....
Thou must prophesy again before many peoples, and nations, and tongues, and kings. (Revelation 10:11)
So, the two witnesses are preaching for the same duration the Chuch consisting of the body of believers existed, from the time they were measured.
So John, is preaching the gospel, so too are the two witnesses and since they are Commissioned to do so, then they too are preaching the gospel as John had instructed the seven churches in Asia Minor to do, to whom his letter was addressed to in the first place, right?
The two witnesses witnesses are the two Pillars on which the entire Church is empowered by, after all, it is part and parcel of the Great Commission to preach the gospel, as was instructed to John previously in Revelation 10:11.
Let me make it easy for you by carrying over to another post for the next paragraph........thanks
Ok we have the temple representing the church and unsaved world outside trampling the church, in a literal world, "two groups of people"the witnesses have been explained already.
4These witnesses are the two olive trees and the two lampstands that stand before the Lord of the earth. 5If anyone wants to harm them, fire proceeds from their mouths and devours their enemies. In this way, anyone who wants to harm them must be killed. 6These witnesses have power to shut the sky so that no rain will fall during the days of their prophecy, and power to turn the waters into blood, and to strike the earth with every kind of plague as often as they wish.
You obviously don't believe that two literal individuals are two literal olive trees in two literal lampstands do you?
So what does an olive tree signify or symbolise?
What does a candlestick signify or symbolise?
Rev 1:20 ... and the seven lampstands which you saw are the seven churches.
This makes it apparent that a lampstand in bible symbolism is used to represent a church.
Yet we know that the olive trees feed the church (or churches) with olive oil. The olive trees are the source of olive oil. Nevertheless, as God the Father can not die,
they must be entities which exist separate from God Himself.
The church representing a lampstand converts the olive oil it receives into light! (This light guides the footsteps of the members.)
Simple input and output relationship right?
Consideration of these issues suggests the olive oil represents the word of God! Thus the church should continually feed upon the words of God in order
that it may be able to bring enlightened teaching to those in its presence.
(The holy spirit serves to bring the word of God to mind (John 14:26) to assist in helping one understand how the word of God should be viewed.)
In a sense the olive trees represent the messengers through whom the inspired words of God have been brought to the church. The writings of chosen men of God such as Moses, Daniel, Paul and others form the olive tree witness! Through such men olive oil is received by the congregation/church.
So on the mount of transfiguration, the disciples were shown the messengers of the New Testament, yet the disciples were told to tell no one, until they received the power from on high, and there and then is the Great Commission context to preach/prophesy the gospel.
So, the word of God as far as the established Church is concerned, is summed up by the two pillars it stands upon, that is the Law (Moses) and the Prophets (Elijah).
Elijah and Moses were shown to the disciples, on the mount of transfiguration to be the two messengers/pillars of the New Testament Church and they stood right there and then as the two candlesticks before the glorified Lord, in the vision that was given to them and they were told to tell no one, until they were empowered to prophesy/preach, within the Great Commission context. Yet both Moses and Elijah are dead, though their message through the Word of God, stands as two Pillars, that supply the new oil, in order for the Church to continue burning her Light into the world.
Did you know that in God's tabernacle the showbread table and the golden lampstand represent the two witnesses?
In the tabernacle the showbread table was placed outside the veil toward the north and the lampstand was placed outside the veil toward the south.
The light from the lampstand illuminated the table. On the table was 12 cakes, ie the showbread. In this symbolism the showbread cakes represent the 'spiritual food' God presented before the descendants of Jacob.
The clothing of the two witnesses in 'sackcloth' portrays the nature of their witness. Their role was to state or provide the testimony of God. They were to exercise humility, while delivering the message with an appropriate level of certainty.
Since we are informed there are two olive trees and two lampstands then each of the witnesses must have a dual nature.
Are you ready....don't miss it......
Rev 11:6 These have power to shut heaven, so that no rain falls in the days of their prophecy; and they have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to strike the earth with all plagues, as often as they desire.
In this verse we encounter a deed of Moses (ie to turn waters to blood) and a deed of Elijah (ie to shut up heaven). This suggests a law and prophets division.
In the Old Testament book of Zechariah we encounter two olive trees, but only one lampstand. This implies the second lampstand was not present at this time.
Therefore, it seems the two olive trees represent, 1) the Law
2) the Prophets
while the two lampstands represent, 1) the Old Covenant Church
2) the New Testament Church.
The two witnesses prophesied in the book of Revelation are to die. After considering John 15:1-2 and Romans 11:17-24.
The two witnesses symbolism Jesus Christ, alongside his body of believers, the measured crowd, that represents the Holy City Jerusalem, are being represented by two pillars, that is the Law and the Prophets, ie the 'spirit' of Christ (His teachings).
Within the context of the Falling Away from the faith, the beast that re-emerges from the bottomless Pitt will kill them.
What does this mean?
The body of Christ, his spiritual bride will cease to witness, where the branches will cease to portray the teachings of Christ, within the falling away, coinciding with the Strong Delision. It is at this period of time, where the predicted period of spiritual famine arrives, Amos 8:11-14.
With censorship under the hate speech agenda being pushed, Christianity from within is falling away from the teachings of Christ and the two pillars that held it together, which is the Word of God will no longer be in its vocabulary, rather it's voice will fail, at the time where it is considered by God that the Great Commission has run its course and now the Black Dragon of apostasy is unleashed as the beast of the bottomless Pitt, who will force Christianity to apostatise or to face the final inquisition before Christ's return.
Black dragon as opposed to the persecuting red dragon of the 1st Century is....
Death, disease, famine and sorrow, which is the result of the falling away from the faith once given to the saints.
Once the two pillars of Christianity are destroyed by the beast power, then the body starts to die slowly. Christianity will become persecuted and irrelevant to what the Beast has on offer by deceit.
The two witnesses are the pillars of our faith, they are the Word of God, consisting congruently the Law and the Prophets.
That is why in Revelation 12 the Woman that appears in Heaven is the Church that has the two lampstands that hold her up, the Mosaic Law under her feet and the Gospel that clothes her, having 12 foundational disciples and was persecuted much by the Red Dragon of the 1st Century. We as Christians are going to face the black dragon, leading up to Christ's return.
You obviously don't believe that two literal individuals are two literal olive trees in two literal lampstands do you?
So what does an olive tree signify or symbolise?
What does a candlestick signify or symbolise?
Rev 1:20 ... and the seven lampstands which you saw are the seven churches.
This makes it apparent that a lampstand in bible symbolism is used to represent a church.
Yet we know that the olive trees feed the church (or churches) with olive oil. The olive trees are the source of olive oil. Nevertheless, as God the Father can not die,
they must be entities which exist separate from God Himself.
The church representing a lampstand converts the olive oil it receives into light! (This light guides the footsteps of the members.)
Simple input and output relationship right?
Consideration of these issues suggests the olive oil represents the word of God! Thus the church should continually feed upon the words of God in order
that it may be able to bring enlightened teaching to those in its presence.
(The holy spirit serves to bring the word of God to mind (John 14:26) to assist in helping one understand how the word of God should be viewed.)
In a sense the olive trees represent the messengers through whom the inspired words of God have been brought to the church. The writings of chosen men of God such as Moses, Daniel, Paul and others form the olive tree witness! Through such men olive oil is received by the congregation/church.
So on the mount of transfiguration, the disciples were shown the messengers of the New Testament, yet the disciples were told to tell no one, until they received the power from on high, and there and then is the Great Commission context to preach/prophesy the gospel.
So, the word of God as far as the established Church is concerned, is summed up by the two pillars it stands upon, that is the Law (Moses) and the Prophets (Elijah).
Elijah and Moses were shown to the disciples, on the mount of transfiguration to be the two messengers/pillars of the New Testament Church and they stood right there and then as the two candlesticks before the glorified Lord, in the vision that was given to them and they were told to tell no one, until they were empowered to prophesy/preach, within the Great Commission context. Yet both Moses and Elijah are dead, though their message through the Word of God, stands as two Pillars, that supply the new oil, in order for the Church to continue burning her Light into the world.
Did you know that in God's tabernacle the showbread table and the golden lampstand represent the two witnesses?
In the tabernacle the showbread table was placed outside the veil toward the north and the lampstand was placed outside the veil toward the south.
The light from the lampstand illuminated the table. On the table was 12 cakes, ie the showbread. In this symbolism the showbread cakes represent the 'spiritual food' God presented before the descendants of Jacob.
The clothing of the two witnesses in 'sackcloth' portrays the nature of their witness. Their role was to state or provide the testimony of God. They were to exercise humility, while delivering the message with an appropriate level of certainty.
Since we are informed there are two olive trees and two lampstands then each of the witnesses must have a dual nature.
Are you ready....don't miss it......
Rev 11:6 These have power to shut heaven, so that no rain falls in the days of their prophecy; and they have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to strike the earth with all plagues, as often as they desire.
In this verse we encounter a deed of Moses (ie to turn waters to blood) and a deed of Elijah (ie to shut up heaven). This suggests a law and prophets division.
In the Old Testament book of Zechariah we encounter two olive trees, but only one lampstand. This implies the second lampstand was not present at this time.
Therefore, it seems the two olive trees represent, 1) the Law
2) the Prophets
while the two lampstands represent, 1) the Old Covenant Church
2) the New Testament Church.
The two witnesses prophesied in the book of Revelation are to die. After considering John 15:1-2 and Romans 11:17-24.
The two witnesses symbolism Jesus Christ, alongside his body of believers, the measured crowd, that represents the Holy City Jerusalem, are being represented by two pillars, that is the Law and the Prophets, ie the 'spirit' of Christ (His teachings).
Within the context of the Falling Away from the faith, the beast that re-emerges from the bottomless Pitt will kill them.
What does this mean?
The body of Christ, his spiritual bride will cease to witness, where the branches will cease to portray the teachings of Christ, within the falling away, coinciding with the Strong Delision. It is at this period of time, where the predicted period of spiritual famine arrives, Amos 8:11-14.
With censorship under the hate speech agenda being pushed, Christianity from within is falling away from the teachings of Christ and the two pillars that held it together, which is the Word of God will no longer be in its vocabulary, rather it's voice will fail, at the time where it is considered by God that the Great Commission has run its course and now the Black Dragon of apostasy is unleashed as the beast of the bottomless Pitt, who will force Christianity to apostatise or to face the final inquisition before Christ's return.
Black dragon as opposed to the persecuting red dragon of the 1st Century is....
Death, disease, famine and sorrow, which is the result of the falling away from the faith once given to the saints.
Once the two pillars of Christianity are destroyed by the beast power, then the body starts to die slowly. Christianity will become persecuted and irrelevant to what the Beast has on offer by deceit.
The two witnesses are the pillars of our faith, they are the Word of God, consisting congruently the Law and the Prophets.
That is why in Revelation 12 the Woman that appears in Heaven is the Church that has the two lampstands that hold her up, the Mosaic Law under her feet and the Gospel that clothes her, having 12 foundational disciples and was persecuted much by the Red Dragon of the 1st Century. We as Christians are going to face the black dragon, leading up to Christ's return.
7When the two witnesses have finished their testimony, the beast that comes up from the abyss will wage war with them, and will overpower and kill them. 8Their bodies will lie in the street of the great city—figuratively called Sodom and Egypt—where their Lord was also crucified. 9For three and a half days all peoples and tribes and tongues and nations will view their bodies and will not permit them to be laid in a tomb. 10And those who dwell on the earth will gloat over them, and will celebrate and send one another gifts, because these two prophets had tormented them.
The Beast cannot kill in a literal sense the Word of God, which is the two Pillars of Christianity, that is the Law and the Prophets. What he does though is to try and dismantel it from within, by getting those who have the strong delusion to do his bidding.
The term kill, implies to remove out of the way. Overpowering them, implies the tidings of the popular culture, no longer putting up with sound doctrine and will give heed to seducing spirits.
Jesus was crucified in Jerusalem and so, where the New Testament Church started from, will end there, not in a literal crucifixion, but rather in a final act of betrayal by those strongly delusioned to believe the lie. They will embrace the Luciferean Gospel.
My conjecture is that if an embraced Christ appears in Jerusalem, then that Final King of that Beast, the long awaited King that the Jews were waiting for all along may grant them their wish, by none other than Lucifer.
The event in Jerusalem will seem to have an impact on an unrepentant world who will be re-assured by the Father of lies that they are alright now since he is here as the Messiah and there is no burden to carry on with the Word of God, rather to embrace his Mark for their salvation.
After all, this Jerusalem is built up for the other guy.
The sinners of the world no longer feel tormented by the two Pillars of Christianity weighing down on their conscience, because once they receive the mark of the beast, they no longer are slaves to their conscience and just follow rules like soulless robots without any free will.
There is a period of time of 3.5 days and I do side with dispensationalists in regards to a literal 3.5 years time frame. I beileve that the Word of God will become censored, by making it illegal to speak about or even write down or to read. The world will portray the Holy Bible as a relic, placing it next to psychopaths like Gangiskan and the likes.
So this explains how they can view their bodies, that is the Word of God as a relic in future museums, but not to bury it completely, instead use it as a future indoctrinational reminder to teach of the savagery of the Christian Bible and the two Pillars that held it up, that is the Word of God.
So the Word of God will become the wall of Berlin.
We can observe Luciferean churches propping up everywhere and these well funded organisations are the new churches in town, that the Beast will use to reign in his utopia.
Literal man. Satan needs to come in person in order for him to go to the lake of fire. In the 1st Century he was using men to do his bidding from the spiritual realm.
Symbolic, meant to signify an underlying point to convey disillusion amongst the unbelievers, who are tormented by their conscience.
The word of God presented to them, becomes the flying scroll of Zechariah 13 that sends a curse in the house and hearts of people who hear it, because it eats away at their conscience spiritually, by creating spiritual death, spiritual famine, emptyness etc.
Literal man. Satan needs to come in person in order for him to go to the lake of fire. In the 1st Century he was using men to do his bidding from the spiritual realm.
Yes, a literal King reigning from a literal Beast power/Kingdom.
Symbolic, meant to signify an underlying point to convey disillusion amongst the unbelievers, who are tormented by their conscience.
The word of God presented to them, becomes the flying scroll of Zechariah 13 that sends a curse in the house and hearts of people who hear it, because it eats away at their conscience spiritually, by creating spiritual death, spiritual famine, emptyness etc.
Symbolic, meant to signify the doing away with the Word of God.
Final hour of evangelisation in th face of death, before the end, leading to the literal resurrection of the dead.
Yes.
Both literal and spiritual. The literal is the counterfeit of the spiritual.
Both, indirect literal and direct spiritual,
Yes.
Yes to eyes, no to bodies.
Absolutely.
Yes. The literal is also spiritual.
Yes, but seven thousand symbolises complete and utter destruction, no one literally survives.
Yes, God is Wonderful indeed. His Word is spectacular.
Thanks for the dialogue, I fully understand your position.
As I stated before I believe in the literal sense in Revelation 11
I don't see Luciferian churches popping up everywhere, Satan is a wolf in sheep's clothing.
He's in full operation right now, in buildings full of people that call themselves church.
Those that receive the future mark of the beast, and worship the image will be deceived and do so willingly, through false "Miracles In Deception" like a big global "Benny Hinn" show , Revelation 19:20
I dont see the beast/antichrist ruling supreme in the 42 month tribulation, as I see literal prophets returned, that will bring literal plagues. A literal remake of Moses/Aaron against Pharoh.
The "Sealed Believer" is protected Revelation 9:1-4, all believers are sealed Ephesians 4:30. Just like the Lambs blood and door mantle, as the Hebrews were protected. Any person trying to harm a believer, they in return will be harmed, the protection and patience of the saints, Revelation 13:10
Two completely different perceptions out of the same Holy Book.
Edit, note: I tend not to believe the Moses and Elijah story, but the last theory I present. The Moses and Elijah theory I do find the strongest, otherwise. "Theory" does imply "I do not fully believe yet", or "I am working out the details, maybe I do believe but need more evidence or think about it".
There are a lot of theories, not sure if any are right. I do not know, right now, my own self. I can just present the theories I feel most sound.
"what are they witness of"
Jesus speaks of himself as being the foremost witness. Typically, being a witness implies you have evidence of everything God has said and done. The truth of God. We saw Elijah and Moses witness this, not just in the flesh as it was with John, Peter, and James, but in transfigured form their own selves.
Their witness was not the same as Elijah's and Moses. And the angels have witnessed far more.
"What is their testimony"
Of their witness of God. It could be something else, but a "witness" gives "testimony" of what they are witness of.
"And what does it mean they stand before the Lord of the earth?"
Gabriel used a phrase like this. With the father of John the Baptist. In his case, it meant he was extremely close to God, God is always with him, and God is pleased with him. ie, to stand, instead of to fall before.
Again, Elijah and Moses, however, stood before Jesus at the transfiguration. Which was implied as being partly, "seeing the coming of the Kingdom of God". There are a lot of Scripture which tie back to the transfiguration, however. There we see the new, eternal bodies.
However, some say the two witnesses are books of the Bible. I disagree that is likely. (I also disagree that any theoretical doctrine should be considered sure thing, before proof has come. Which can be God showing people this. )
Some say it is a church, usually their own, frankly.
The two witnesses could be Jesus, and the Holy Spirit, or an Angel of the Holy Spirit who lives in His heart. In this way, one person can be spoken of as "two". It might be noted, this could happen in secret and without identification by the human public.
The two witnesses are murdered, then lie in the street for 3 days, while the world celebrates their death, then are resurrected back to life and ascend. Jesus and the Holy Spirit cannot be the witnesses in Revelation.
Another thought came to mind. The two individuals (maybe Enoch and Elijah) will be murdered and lay in the street, then resurrected and will ascend after the 3rd day. It stands to reason, that prior to this event, our resurrection/rapture has not taken place. Why would two witnesses need to spread the gospel after a resurrection/rapture has taken place? People would have figured out what happened to 2.3 billion people unless they were greatly deceived. No, the purpose of the witnesses is to evangelize the remnant Israel (including the 144k) before the resurrection of the Church happens. Now, since the candlesticks represent the faithful and persecuted churches, they will also simultaneously be taken up with the two witnesses --- just a thought, not sure.
There are other pieces that need to be considered as well.
Scripture states that the 144k are sealed before any harm comes to the earth. (Rev. 7:3)
Rev. 7:9 represents the rapture, the multitude from every nation seen in heaven.
Another interesting point is that Revelation is not in a chronological order, events overlap and are shown in different vantage points. It goes back and forth which is why this book is so confusing -- it can't work in a linear, chapter by chapter, seals, then trumpets, etc. The trumpets and bowls fall within the seals. An example is that Rev. 11:15 and Rev. 7:9 are the same event, the rapture shown from a different vantage points. Rev. 7 & Rev. 14 describe the 144k from different vantage points as well. The massive earthquake that effects the entire planet is shown in two places: Rev. 6:12 & Rev. 16:18.
To see an entire sphere, you must turn it and look at it at a different angles. When you think of God's view of these events, it's outside of time, a physical dimension. When you remove time, you see all the events simultaneously, a transparent sphere of events, not just on the surface, but within as well. Anyways, that's how I imagine Revelation is put together. I think of the scroll with seals as a play and that Jesus arrived in heaven after His ascension and was handed that scroll at that time and opened it. It contains the events of the future, but the play doesn't start until the trumpets start to blow. And then you have 1,2,3 ... in order and then the bowls in order.
Another thought came to mind. The two individuals (maybe Enoch and Elijah) will be murdered and lay in the street, then resurrected and will ascend after the 3rd day. It stands to reason, that prior to this event, our resurrection/rapture has not taken place. Why would two witnesses need to spread the gospel after a resurrection/rapture has taken place? People would have figured out what happened to 2.3 billion people unless they were greatly deceived. No, the purpose of the witnesses is to evangelize the remnant Israel (including the 144k) before the resurrection of the Church happens. Now, since the candlesticks represent the faithful and persecuted churches, they will also simultaneously be taken up with the two witnesses --- just a thought, not sure.
There are other pieces that need to be considered as well.
Scripture states that the 144k are sealed before any harm comes to the earth. (Rev. 7:3)
Rev. 7:9 represents the rapture, the multitude from every nation seen in heaven.
Another interesting point is that Revelation is not in a chronological order, events overlap and are shown in different vantage points. It goes back and forth which is why this book is so confusing -- it can't work in a linear, chapter by chapter, seals, then trumpets, etc. The trumpets and bowls fall within the seals. An example is that Rev. 11:15 and Rev. 7:9 are the same event, the rapture shown from a different vantage points. Rev. 7 & Rev. 14 describe the 144k from different vantage points as well. The massive earthquake that effects the entire planet is shown in two places: Rev. 6:12 & Rev. 16:18.
To see an entire sphere, you must turn it and look at it at a different angles. When you think of God's view of these events, it's outside of time, a physical dimension. When you remove time, you see all the events simultaneously, a transparent sphere of events, not just on the surface, but within as well. Anyways, that's how I imagine Revelation is put together. I think of the scroll with seals as a play and that Jesus arrived in heaven after His ascension and was handed that scroll at that time and opened it. It contains the events of the future, but the play doesn't start until the trumpets start to blow. And then you have 1,2,3 ... in order and then the bowls in order.
Revelation 7:3 The 144,000 represent the remnant Jew receiving Jesus Christ, and sealed by the Holy Spirit Ephesians 4:30, they are "Added" to the Church present during the tribulation.
Christ said those things 2000 years ago. No one then knew the day or hour. It's still true today. Certainly when the time comes and certain events unfold people will know the day...like when the two prophets rise back to life...that means it is going to happen that day. Nothing Christ said forbids that knowledge on the certain day.
Why should it matter when Jesus said these things? What should matter is, was Jesus being truthful or not? Of course He was. But how could He have been if some will know the very day He returns though He indicated only the Father knows that day? If only the Father knows that day, and that the Father dwells outside of time, thus knows the past, present and future, how can only the Father know that day if some at the end of time also know that exact day?
Let's not forget, it was a prophecy in that passage having to do with the end of this age and the 2nd coming, and that Jesus indicated only the Father knows that exact day. Jesus even indicated the angels don't know that day. And angels dwell in heaven among the Father, yet they don't know the exact day. But we are to believe men will know that exact day?
Why should it matter when Jesus said these things? What should matter is, was Jesus being truthful or not? Of course He was. But how could He have been if some will know the very day He returns though He indicated only the Father knows that day? If only the Father knows that day, and that the Father dwells outside of time, thus knows the past, present and future, how can only the Father know that day if some at the end of time also know that exact day?
Let's not forget, it was a prophecy in that passage having to do with the end of this age and the 2nd coming, and that Jesus indicated only the Father knows that exact day. Jesus even indicated the angels don't know that day. And angels dwell in heaven among the Father, yet they don't know the exact day. But we are to believe men will know that exact day?
I agree it's meaning the final judgment of all who involved here. As you probably already am aware of, I don't take the sheep and goats as representing everyone who has ever lived. The goats are not meaning all of the wicked unsaved in general. In this context they are meaning unprofitable servants of Christ. I already know you and many others disagree with that. But I don't care if you don't agree with it, because I OTOH am more interested in agreeing with the Bible. And if I agree with the Bible, yet many are disagreeing with me, it's not me they are disagreeing with, it's the Bible they are disagreeing with.
Of course I do. You should have read enough of my posts by now to have already known this. Just because I'm Premil, that doesn't mean I'm your typical Premil that one usually encounters on this board. A lot of things I disagree with other Premils about. A lot of things I agree with them about as well.
Now that I have addressed most of this, mind telling me what any of this has to do with what I was discussing with EWQ? None of your questions address whether man knows the exact day of the 2nd coming or not.
I agree it's meaning the final judgment of all who involved here. As you probably already am aware of, I don't take the sheep and goats as representing everyone who has ever lived. The goats are not meaning all of the wicked unsaved in general. In this context they are meaning unprofitable servants of Christ. I already know you and many others disagree with that. But I don't care if you don't agree with it, because I OTOH am more interested in agreeing with the Bible. And if I agree with the Bible, yet many are disagreeing with me, it's not me they are disagreeing with, it's the Bible they are disagreeing with.
Yes
Yes
Yes
Apparently I do. Do you as well, the fact you can't seem to grasp whom the goats are meaning in this particular context?
Of course I do. You should have read enough of my posts by now to have already known this. Just because I'm Premil, that doesn't mean I'm your typical Premil that one usually encounters on this board. A lot of things I disagree with other Premils about. A lot of things I agree with them about as well.
Now that I have addressed most of this, mind telling me what any of this has to do with what I was discussing with EWQ? None of your questions address whether man knows the exact day of the 2nd coming or not.
The two witnesses are murdered, then lie in the street for 3 days, while the world celebrates their death, then are resurrected back to life and ascend. Jesus and the Holy Spirit cannot be the witnesses in Revelation.
I think you have made a wrong interpretation because when the 7th trumpet in Revelation 11 sounds, it signals the third woe - as the kingdoms of this world are taken from Satan's invisible kingdom. The final phase of God mystery begins. (Revelation 10:7)
The third woe is in Revelation 12, of Satan being cast down to earth. Babylon is fallen is fallen. When he is cast down, restricted to earth, there are a time, times, half times left in the 7 years.
The third woe is the 7th trumpet. The first woe is the 5th trump, 2nd woe is the 6th trump.
Revelation 11: 14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.
15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
Revelation 12: 12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
The word "woe" is not a trumpet woe. Rev 12 has nothing to do with the 3 woes of God.
Paul's last trump is different. It is an expression based on when the children of Israel were traveling the wilderness refers to when the cloud moved that was the signal for the camp would assemble themselves, and a trumpet sounded to coordinate that they all moved in unison.
No, that has nothing to do with the last trump of the end times.
Rev_8:13 And I beheld, and heard an angel flying through the midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice, Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels, which are yet to sound!
