The two witnesses

Gregory Thompson

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I was just thinking about the two witnesses and who they may be but i have a few question what are they a witness of? Whats thier testimony? And what does it mean they stand before the Lord of the earth? Etc.
Earlier In the book of Revelation, there were 144,000 sealed as witnesses of God, the two witnesses are the last ones standing.
 
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ewq1938

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If Christ said the "candlesticks" are a symbol of the churches in Revelation 1:20 and Paul used the two Olive Trees as a symbol of the Church in Romans chapter 11, is there a relationship between the two witnesses going up into a cloud and the 7th trumpet, just a few verse later?


.


Olive trees are individuals, anointed ones who are prophets, not churches. Only the candlesticks represent churches.
 
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ewq1938

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How do the two directly relate to the Menorah of God, specifically the bowl that they are connected to in Zechariah 4?



How are they connected to the Chuch, that is the seven lamps?

The olive trees provide oil which is symbolic for truth and knowledge.
 
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ewq1938

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Always viewed the ressurrection and rapture as the same: 1 Cor. 15:52; 1 Thes. 4:16, 17 _ at the last trumpet _ we're changed into new bodies at the same time caught up. How else can you interpret that?

The living are not resurrected but are changed into immortals. It is the dead that will be resurrected to life.

Here are terms that must be understood:

RESURRECTED means brought from death to life and this happens only to the dead in Christ.
The CHANGE the living saints experience is to go from mortal to immortal.
The RAPTURE is to lift those living immortals up into the sky to meet Christ and the RESURRECTED saints.
 
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ewq1938

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I read the words "last" trump, not seventh trump. Does your bible say "seventh" trump in 1Corinthians15:52 ?


The 7th trump in Rev is the last trump to sound. This is what Paul is speaking about when he speaks of the last trump happening when Christ returns. Christ returns at the 7th trump so last and 7th are the same exact trump.
 
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The Times

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The olive trees provide oil which is symbolic for truth and knowledge.

You are getting warmer.......:sweatsmile:

For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. (John 1:17)

But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and forever! Amen. (2 Peter 3:18)

Since Jesus is the Cornerstone of the Temple of God, who is also declared the Living Vine, then the Church that he purchased and built with his own Blood, stands on those TWO/DUO/PAIR of Pillars, that is......

Grace (knowledge) and Truth

The Law, within the New Testament context is Grace.
The Prophets, within the New Testament context is the Truth of Christ.

For the testimony (TRUTH) of Jesus is the Spirit of prophecy. (Revelation 19:10)

You pore over the Scriptures because you presume that by them you possess eternal life. These are the very words that testify about Me (John 5:39)

In other words, the Law and all the Prophets which scripture represents, testify about Jesus.

"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. (Matthew 5:17)

The Church, which represents the seven lamps of the seven candlestick Menorah of God, is established and built up upon these TWO Pillars.

So the Two olive trees that stand before the Lord, are the very foundational Pillars that the Church of Christ Jesus is built upon.

There you have it, the Church must be continuous until Christ's return and must hold this office, having direct connection to these two/duo Pillars, without cessation and without discontinuity.

The narrative of two individuals coming on the scene, later in the piece, destroys the coherent constructs made above and therefore would stand out as an anomaly.

These Two Olive trees or Pillars must therefore have been, contextually, historically and congruently feeding the Church the oil as the source, throughout the New Testament Age. If you separated the two olive trees (two candlesticks) from the 2000 years and counting testimony of the Church, that is the seven lamps of the Menorah, then the Church becomes irrelevant in the scheme of things.
 
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ewq1938

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Definitely feel that is a severe overreach. The two Olive trees/prophets are not called pillars nor are they said to have existed all through the church age. God provides truth and oil to the Church but the two prophets will be mortals that have a duty in the end times. That's all Rev 11/13 present so that's as far as I personally feel can be attributed to them.


...
You are getting warmer.......:sweatsmile:

For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. (John 1:17)

But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and forever! Amen. (2 Peter 3:18)

Since Jesus is the Cornerstone of the Temple of God, who is also declared the Living Vine, then the Church that he purchased and built with his own Blood, stands on those TWO/DUO/PAIR of Pillars, that is......

Grace (knowledge) and Truth

The Law, within the New Testament context is Grace.
The Prophets, within the New Testament context is the Truth of Christ.

For the testimony (TRUTH) of Jesus is the Spirit of prophecy. (Revelation 19:10)

You pore over the Scriptures because you presume that by them you possess eternal life. These are the very words that testify about Me (John 5:39)

In other words, the Law and all the Prophets which scripture represents, testify about Jesus.

"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. (Matthew 5:17)

The Church, which represents the seven lamps of the seven candlestick Menorah of God, is established and built up upon these TWO Pillars.

So the Two olive trees that stand before the Lord, are the very foundational Pillars that the Church of Christ Jesus is built upon.

There you have it, the Church must be continuous until Christ's return and must hold this office, having direct connection to these two/duo Pillars, without cessation and without discontinuity.

The narrative of two individuals coming on the scene, later in the piece, destroys the coherent constructs made above and therefore would stand out as an anomaly.

These Two Olive trees or Pillars must therefore have been, contextually, historically and congruently feeding the Church the oil as the source, throughout the New Testament Age. If you separated the two olive trees (two candlesticks) from the 2000 years and counting testimony of the Church, that is the seven lamps of the Menorah, then the Church becomes irrelevant in the scheme of things.
 
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The Times

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Right, pretty popular doctrine, not sure who originally came up with it.

It does not seem to fit verses, though anything is possible until the Lord confirms the correct answer.

Well aware of this doctrine, also well aware of the verses in Zechariah.

It does not say these things directly, of course. Not by any means. But, most prophecy is written in a code.

I do not feel it fits the tone of the verses of Chapter 11, and very poorly fits the depictions of that chapter.

Contrast to Daniel's interpretation of the kingdoms, where we now know one is Persia, Greece, etc. It is very clear and fits perfectly.

Please read my reply in the link below....

The two witnesses

I will, in another post address Zechariah 11.
 
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Jenniferdiana

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No way to know that because we don't know who they are nor when the tribulation will begin.
Ok...so they must be creatures trained by God or something..all this stuff is interesting to me..so im just curious..i love the mysterious stuff
 
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ewq1938

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Ok...so they must be creatures trained by God or something..all this stuff is interesting to me..so im just curious..i love the mysterious stuff


They are definitely two men, humans, and mortal since they are killed. Their ministry doesn't happen until 3.5 days before the trib begins, and thus ends 3.5 days before the trib ends but when those things happen is not known yet.
 
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The Times

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Definitely feel that is a severe overreach. The two Olive trees/prophets are not called pillars nor are they said to have existed all through the church age. God provides truth and oil to the Church but the two prophets will be mortals that have a duty in the end times. That's all Rev 11/13 present so that's as far as I personally feel can be attributed to them.


...

Do you agree that the depiction of these two olive trees or two candlesticks in Zechariah 4 are the same as in Rev 11/13?

If so......then could you please resolve the following contradiction......

If these two always stand before the Lord, then they must be two olive trees that always produce oil before the Lord right?

Ask yourself, when did this happen?

7Who art thou, O great mountain? before Zerubbabel thou shalt become a plain: and he shall bring forth the headstone thereof withshoutings, crying, Grace, grace unto it. (Zechariah 4:7)

It happened at Calvary, when Jesus said it is finished. On the mount of transfiguration he would tell his disciples to tell no man what they saw (Elijah/Prophets and Moses/Law), until that moment.

The headstone or cornerstone is Jesus Christ.

So what is Jesus the cornerstone of?

The Temple of God made without human effort and human hands. It is the body of believers, His Church.

Context is everything, so that when the two olive trees are mentioned, in conjunction with the Church and with congruency to the foundation of the Church, then the two cannot be separated historically speaking from that event of the shouting of Grace Grace unto the Cornerstone of the Temple of God (The Church).

Zechariah uses the word "O great Mountain", meaning O Great Congregation (body of believers), which is the Church.

If you presume that they are two literal people who come on the scene towards the end, then the unresolvable contradiction is......

They couldn't have existed at the time of the event of Grace Grace be onto the foundation Cornerstone of the Church.

They couldn't of had historically, a continuous affiliation with the Church.

Therefore in this contradiction, they become an anomaly in the scheme of things and are an adjunct to the entire context of Zechariah 4.

Zechariah 4 is really a poetic text type that portrays how God will built a new Temple and fill it with a new congregation of people, and He will provide new oil of Joel 2:24. Zechariah phrases this congregation as "O Great Mountian".

One final thing, these two olive trees, have to be directly tied to the seven eyes of the LORD, which run to and fro through the whole earth. (Zechariah 4:10)

Therefore, it is a requirement that the two must be supplying oil from the Grace Grace point in time of the beginning of the New Testament Age and must be directly connected to the seven ministering eyes of the Lord, throughout the world.

Obviously they could not have done that, if they were not on earth being part of those seven ministering eyes, so how do they stand before the Lord ministering, if they didn't exist 2000 years ago?

They must be tied to the Church from the beginning of the New Testament age of the Church. They must be directly and continuously affiliated with the Church establishment, because Revelation says so....

To the seven churches in the province of Asia: Grace and peace to you from him who is, and who was, and who is to come, and from the seven spirits before his throne, (Revelation 1:4)

So we have the seven churches present within the 1st Century Church establishment, also present is the seven ministering spirits or eyes of Zechariah 4:10.

So where are the two candlesticks or two olive trees who are the new oil God promised to provide in Joel 2:24?

They must historically also be present with the establishment of the 1st Century Church and be part of the Great Commission ministry of the seven eyes/spirits of God.

You my friend have an unresolvable contradiction to deal with?

I am afraid you will not find any support from scripture to resolve it. It therefore comes down to what subjective view you impose on scripture.
 
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Jenniferdiana

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They are definitely two men, humans, and mortal since they are killed. Their ministry doesn't happen until 3.5 days before the trib begins, and thus ends 3.5 days before the trib ends but when those things happen is not known yet.
haha of course no one knows..but why do you think they are two men?
 
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Truth7t7

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Ok...so they must be creatures trained by God or something..all this stuff is interesting to me..so im just curious..i love the mysterious stuff
Revelation 11 stated prophets that have literal physical bodies that will die, lay in a physical street in a literal world dead, as literal humans celebrate their death, they are raised in the sight of literal human eyes that will watch, as a literal earthquake takes place, with literal destruction in a literal Jerusalem where Jesus Christ was crucified.

"Try Giving A Symbolic Representation To All The Wording Described"
 
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Do you agree that the depiction of these two olive trees or two candlesticks in Zechariah 4 are the same as in Rev 11/13?

Certainly could be.

If so......then could you please resolve the following contradiction......

If these two always stand before the Lord, then they must be two olive trees that always produce oil before the Lord right?

You are adding the word "always".

Zec 4:14 Then said he, These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth.

We aren't told when this vision is happening. It could be it is a vision of the future at the time the two prophets are to be active.


I am afraid you will not find any support from scripture to resolve it. It therefore comes down to what subjective view you impose on scripture.

I prefer to stick with what scripture says and limit my own personal views because I dislike to impose my views upon scripture but prefer to allow scripture to impose it's views upon me :)
 
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Truth7t7

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You have symbolized the "Two Witnesses" as being the Church, OK :)

You have only dealt with a "Small Portion" in response, trying to interpret the chapter?

Please respond to the associated events as seen below in Revelation 11, do you have an answer for this also?

Revelation 11 states prophets that have literal physical bodies that will die, bring literal plagues, lay in a physical street in a literal world dead in Jerusalem, as literal humans celebrate their death, they are raised in the sight of literal human eyes that will watch, as a literal earthquake takes place, with literal destruction in a literal Jerusalem where Jesus Christ was crucified.

"Try Giving A Symbolic Representation To All The Wording Described"?

You can't just walk away in a symbolic representation of the two witnesses, and sweep the surrounding scripture under the carpet? :)
Do you agree that the depiction of these two olive trees or two candlesticks in Zechariah 4 are the same as in Rev 11/13?

If so......then could you please resolve the following contradiction......

If these two always stand before the Lord, then they must be two olive trees that always produce oil before the Lord right?

Ask yourself, when did this happen?

7Who art thou, O great mountain? before Zerubbabel thou shalt become a plain: and he shall bring forth the headstone thereof withshoutings, crying, Grace, grace unto it. (Zechariah 4:7)

It happened at Calvary, when Jesus said it is finished. On the mount of transfiguration he would tell his disciples to tell no man what they saw (Elijah/Prophets and Moses/Law), until that moment.

The headstone or cornerstone is Jesus Christ.

So what is Jesus the cornerstone of?

The Temple of God made without human effort and human hands. It is the body of believers, His Church.

Context is everything, so that when the two olive trees are mentioned, in conjunction with the Church and with congruency to the foundation of the Church, then the two cannot be separated historically speaking from that event of the shouting of Grace Grace unto the Cornerstone of the Temple of God (The Church).

Zechariah uses the word "O great Mountain", meaning O Great Congregation (body of believers), which is the Church.

If you presume that they are two literal people who come on the scene towards the end, then the unresolvable contradiction is......

They couldn't have existed at the time of the event of Grace Grace be onto the foundation Cornerstone of the Church.

They couldn't of had historically, a continuous affiliation with the Church.

Therefore in this contradiction, they become an anomaly in the scheme of things and are an adjunct to the entire context of Zechariah 4.

Zechariah 4 is really a poetic text type that portrays how God will built a new Temple and fill it with a new congregation of people, and He will provide new oil of Joel 2:24. Zechariah phrases this congregation as "O Great Mountian".

One final thing, these two olive trees, have to be directly tied to the seven eyes of the LORD, which run to and fro through the whole earth. (Zechariah 4:10)

Therefore, it is a requirement that the two must be supplying oil from the Grace Grace point in time of the beginning of the New Testament Age and must be directly connected to the seven ministering eyes of the Lord, throughout the world.

Obviously they could not have done that, if they were not on earth being part of those seven ministering eyes, so how do they stand before the Lord ministering, if they didn't exist 2000 years ago?

They must be tied to the Church from the beginning of the New Testament age of the Church. They must be directly and continuously affiliated with the Church establishment, because Revelation says so....

To the seven churches in the province of Asia: Grace and peace to you from him who is, and who was, and who is to come, and from the seven spirits before his throne, (Revelation 1:4)

So we have the seven churches present within the 1st Century Church establishment, also present is the seven ministering spirits or eyes of Zechariah 4:10.

So where are the two candlesticks or two olive trees who are the new oil God promised to provide in Joel 2:24?

They must historically also be present with the establishment of the 1st Century Church and be part of the Great Commission ministry of the seven eyes/spirits of God.

You my friend have an unresolvable contradiction to deal with?

I am afraid you will not find any support from scripture to resolve it. It therefore comes down to what subjective view you impose on scripture.
 
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Certainly could be.

Either it is or it isn't.
I will take your word "certainly" to sway on the side of IS, that is Zechariah 4 two olive trees IS related to Revelation 11/13.

You are adding the word "always".

Poetic text types require diciphering terms according to the cultural meanings of the terms, within the intended context of what is being portrayed poetically.

Zec 4:14 Then said he, These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth.

They don't literally stand, as in stand on two literal feet, rather it is a term used to openly declare what they stand for, meaning they are representing the Lord across the globe, as his ambassadors/witnesses.

It is a present tense verb stand, that is directly associated with the time context of bringing out the cornerstone and the building the Temple of God using the Cornerstone, which happened within the 1st Century, from Pentecost onwards.

We aren't told when this vision is happening. It could be it is a vision of the future at the time the two prophets are to be active.

Really.....it is historically and contextually based on the bringing out of the cornerstone.

Jesus is the cornerstone.

When they built physical temples, they would use a large Cornerstone as a reference to start building the temple.

Jesus became the cornerstone of the temple of God.
The Holy Spirit came on Pentecost to build the spiritual temple using the Cornerstone.

The entire context of Zechariah declares this clear as crystal, what do you mean "we don't know when this vision is happening".

I prefer to stick with what scripture says and limit my own personal views because I dislike to impose my views upon scripture but prefer to allow scripture to impose it's views upon me :)

So, I gather from what you have said thus far is.....

You read words in a literal context and negate the fact that words can have different applied meaning, within a given context.

For example let us consider.....

The two stand before the Lord of the whole earth.

You read the word stand as in someone standing on their two feet, thereby negating the context. Notice it states the Lord of the whole earth. This phrase isn't giving a location or even implying that the Lord encompasses the whole earth or that he owns it, because it would be meaningless to state the obvious. The author is saying that those two are standing for, meaning are representing the Lord across the entire globe, as witnesses.

Think for a moment how could two literal people practically and historically from Pentecost and onwards been representing the Lord globally, if they could not have possibly covered every territory and peoples and not to mention they have your time limit of 3.5 years imposed on them?

It makes no sense historically nor contextually.
 
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