What Does Aionios Mean? (Part 3, Looking at the LXX)

Mark Corbett

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Note: The numbering of the points continues from parts 1 and 2, so that everything is this section is 3.something.

3.1 Review

Universalists believe that no one will be punished or destroyed eternally, but rather that everyone will eventually be redeemed and live joyfully in God’s eternal Kingdom. Two of the most difficult texts for the Universalist view use the Greek word aionios. In all widely used English translations, aionios is translated as either “eternal” or “everlasting” in these two verses. It will be easy to see why, if this translation is correct, these verses are fatal to the Universalist position:

CSB Matthew 25:46 "And they will go away into eternal (aionios) punishment, but the righteous into eternal (aionios) life."

CSB 2 Thessalonians 1:9 These will pay the penalty of eternal (aionios) destruction from the Lord's presence and from His glorious strength
Universalists often respond by arguing that aionios does not mean eternal in these verses. They often argue for a meaing like “lasting for an age”.

I part 1 we looked at evidence from the 71 uses of aionios in the New Testament. I concluded that the evidence strongly supports aionios meaning “eternal” in the literal sense of “eternal” whenever it is looking forward in time.

In part 2 I examined an argument which is commonly seen in popular Universalist writings but which some Universalists avoid. This argument basically says that since the adjective aionios is derived from the noun aion and since aion means “an age”, then aionios must mean “lasting for an age.” I explained that this argument is doubly wrong. It commits the etymological fallacy of determining the meaning of a word from its roots rather than from its usage. Further, since aion as used in the New Testament most commonly refers to a future eternal age, even using their wrong methodology, the most likely meaning for aionios when referring to things in the coming age would be “eternal”.

I want to remind my readers that I am intentionally interacting with a specific type of Universalist here. I am interacting with Universalists who believe that salvation comes through faith in Jesus Christ, our Lord and Savior, and who believe the Bible is our authority when it comes to our theology. While I don’t agree with these Universalists that everyone will live eternally, I have no reason to doubt that they themselves will live eternally and I look forward to worshiping before the throne with them where all our disputes will be melted away by God’s glory and presence. In the meantime, while these issue need not divide us, they are, in my opinion, important enough to study and even debate.

3.2 Universalist Arguments about Aionios based on the Old Testament

The Old Testament was written in Hebrew. However, before Jesus was born and long before the New Testament was written, the Old Testament was translated into Greek. The most important translation into Greek is called the Septuagint and is translated LXX (the Roman numeral for seventy, because according to tradition seventy scholars produced the translation). The LXX is extremely valuable. The authors of the New Testament appear to frequently quote from it or allude to it. It provides a helpful linguistic link between words and related concepts in the Hebrew Old Testament and the Greek New Testament. It is entirely legitimate to look at data in the LXX to help understand how words are used in the New Testament. I frequently (almost weekly, when preparing to teach, preach, write, or just studying God’s word) look at examples in the LXX myself. So I respect this approach. It is not the basic idea of looking at the LXX for data which I find problematic, but rather the specific Universalist analysis of that data with respect to the meaning of aionios in the New Testament.

Before examing two types of Univeralist arguments from the Old Testament, a more general comment is in order. Words change meaning over time. Think about how the meaning of the word gay has changed. If you read the King James Bible or Shakespeare, you can find many words which have changed their meaning. Also, words can be used differently in different locations and even to some extent by different authors in the same location. The LXX is significantly removed from the New Testament in time, in geographical location of its compostion, and it obviously has different authors. This does not make the LXX irrelevant. It does mean that data from the New Testament itself is FAR more valuable in determining the meaning of a New Testament word than data from the LXX. That’s why I began this series by looking at the data in the New Testament itself. The New Testament data alone is enough, in my opinion, to establish the meaning of aionios as eternal when looking forward in time. Nevertheless, it is not wrong to also look at data from the LXX, so let’s press on. I’m convinced that when properly evaluated the LXX actually backs up the range of meaning for aionios which we found it part 1 by looking at the New Testment data. We’ll look at two related arguments. I look at what I view as the weaker of the arguments first.

3.3.1 Some Universalists Argue or at Least Imply that Since Aionios Translates the Hebrew Word Olam, it Does Not Mean Eternal

The Greek word aionios is used 115 times in the LXX. With just a few exceptions it always translates the Hebrew word olam. Olam is a Hebrew adjective which describes things which last for a long time or which come to us from a long time back in the past. With regard to future time, olam sometimes refers to things which last forever, and sometimes refers to things which last for a long, but limited time into the future. The range of meaning of olam may be represented as follows:

Meaning%2Bof%2BOlam%2Band%2BAionios%2B1.jpg


Some Universalists seem to assume that because aionios is used to translate olam in the LXX it must have the same range of meaning. But words in different languages rarely have identical ranges of meaning. Let me share an easy to undertand example between the two languages I’m fluent in: Indonesian and English. Then we’ll get back to olam and aionios.

Consider the very simple English word “rice”. We use this English word to refer to rice which has been cooked and is ready to eat, or rice which is in a bag in the grocery store, or rice which is in a field waiting to be harvested. If you were ordering rice in an Indonesian restaurant you would translate “rice” with the Indonesian word nasi. However, it would be a mistake to think that nasi has the same range of meaning as rice. If you were looking for bags of rice in an Indonesian grocery store and asked for nasi, your Indonesian friend might restrain from laughing out of politeness, but they would at least smile and hopefully explain your mistake. Uncooked rice is not called nasi, it is called beras. And rice waiting to be harvested in a field in neither nasi nor beras, it is padi. The range of meaning of rice and nasi may be illustrated like this:

Meaning%2Bof%2BOlam%2Band%2BAionios%2B2.jpg


Based on our study of aionios in the New Testament (in part 1), it should be considered at least possible that the range of meaning of olam and aionios overlap but are not identical, like this:

Meaning%2Bof%2BOlam%2Band%2BAionios%2B3.jpg


Before we conclude that the above comparison is accurate, we need to consider what may be the least weak Universalist argument in favor of aionios meaning, at least sometimes, “continuing into the future for a limited age”.

3.3.2 Some Universalist Argue that Examples of Aionios in the LXX Referring to Things or Situations which are Not Eternal Prove that Aionios does not Mean Eternal

As already mentioned, aionios occurs 115 times in the LXX.

When looking into the past, aionios generally is used in the LXX to mean “ancient”. Here are two examples:

CSB Psalm 77:5 I consider days of old, years long past (aionios).


CSB Isaiah 58:12 Some of you will rebuild the ancient (aionios) ruins; you will restore the foundations laid long ago (aionios); you will be called the repairer of broken walls, the restorer of streets where people live. (Isa. 58:12 CSB)

There are many examples where aionios is used to refer to things which clearly are, in fact, eternal. Here are two examples:

CSB Genesis 21:33 Abraham planted a tamarisk tree in Beer-sheba, and there he called on the name of Yahweh, the Everlasting (aionios) God.

CSB Daniel 7:14 He was given authority to rule, and glory, and a kingdom; so that those of every people, nation, and language should serve Him. His dominion is an everlasting (aionios) dominion that will not pass away, and His kingdom is one that will not be destroyed.

However, aionios is also used to translate olam when referring to things which will last a long time into the future, but will not last forever. Here are two of many similar examples:

CSB Exodus 27:21 In the tent of meeting outside the veil that is in front of the testimony, Aaron and his sons are to tend the lamp from evening until morning before the LORD. This is to be a permanent (aionios) statute for the Israelites throughout their generations.

CSB Jeremiah 18:16 They have made their land a horror, a perpetual (aionios) object of scorn; everyone who passes by it will be horrified and shake his head.

In the first example, the oil in the lamps did not in fact burn forever. The laws which governed the temple worship in Leviticus were fulfilled and superseded by the new covenant established by the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. In the second case, after Israel was defeated it may have been a place of horror for a very long time, but certainly not for eternity.

These examples at first may seem to decisively demonstrate that at the time the LXX was written aionios could refer to something lasting a long time into the future which was not eternal. But I’m not convinced that is true for two closely related reasons.

1. The LXX is a translation. Unlike the original Scriptures, it is not perfect. In most of the cases where the translators used aionios to refer to things which we know did not last forever, they might have reasonably thought that those things would, in fact, last forever. This is likely true for the laws related to the temple worship and Old Testament priesthood. Even when those activities were interrupted, there was likely an expectation that they would be resumed and continued forever. Several generations before Christ was born it is unlikely that the LXX translators had a clear understanding that a new, truly eternal, priesthood would be established by Christ. Thus, they reasonably chose aionios to translate olam in cases in which it appeared to them that aionios was referring to something eternal. This accounts for almost all the cases in the LXX where ainios refers to something which did not turn out to be eternal.

2. It is also a fact that a very common translation error is to get into the habit of using one word to translate another in many places where it fits and then to somewhat carelessly use it in places where it is not the best choice. Many foreigners who have moved to Indonesia have learned that nasi means rice, but then wrongly asked where the nasi is in a grocery story, when they should have asked where the beras is. Because I lived in Indonesia for 14 years and very often read and heard Indonesian translated into English and vice versa, I can say with confidence that this category of translation error is very common in all types of settings. So it is possible that because aionios very often was the best choice to translate olam (when it referred to something ancient or something eternal), the translators occasionally made a poor choice and translated olam as aionios when referring to something which lasted long into the future, but not forever. This may explain the use of aionios in Jeremiah 18:16 above. In fact, for this reason, translated material is generally not the best source for sample sentences for determining the precise range of meaning of words.

The above two factors can easily account for all the uses of aionios in the LXX to refer to things which last a long time into the future, but not forever. Most examples fall into the first category of things which the translators may have reasonably thought were eternal. The few remaining examples (and there really are very few) may be accounted for by the second factor.

3.4 Conclusion

The data in the LXX strongly supports aionios meaning either ancient (looking back in time) or eternal (looking forward in time). The evidence for aionios meaning “lasting for a long but limited time” is weak due to the nature of translation between olam and aionios. At most, the data in the LXX might possibly show that in a time and place significantly removed from the New Testament authors, aionios could refer to things that lasted a long time, but not forever. I personally do not feel the data in the LXX justifies even that conclusion. But even if it does, the data in the New Testament itself is far more important. As we saw in part 1, the New Testament data consistently shows, with clear examples, that when looking into the future aionios means eternal.


This was originally a post on my blog.
 

ClementofA

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Interesting article, Mark. I'm wondering what your interpretation of Dan. 12:2-3 is. Which text do you consider the accurate or inspired text of those verses, a Hebrew text with OLAM or a Greek text (e.g. the LXX, THD) with AIONIOS?

BTW, my thread addresses some of the same points raised in your series on aionios:

Have you been decieved by your Bible translation?
 
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Mark Corbett

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Interesting article, Mark. I'm wondering what your interpretation of Daniel 12:2-3 is. Which text do you consider the accurate or inspired text of those verses, a Hebrew text with OLAM or a Greek text (e.g. the LXX, THD) with AIONIOS?

Unless there is something unusual about the texts for Daniel 12:2-3 that I am unaware of, I would view it as all other OT texts. The Hebrew is the original, inspired text. Ancient Greek translations are not inspired, and may have various types of errors, but are extremely helpful. Of course occasionally the LXX is quoted in the NT, and the NT quote is inspired, but that does not apply to Daniel 12:2-3. I look forward to seeing where you are going with this.
 
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ClementofA

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Unless there is something unusual about the texts for Daniel 12:2-3 that I am unaware of, I would view it as all other OT texts. The Hebrew is the original, inspired text. Ancient Greek translations are not inspired, and may have various types of errors, but are extremely helpful. Of course occasionally the LXX is quoted in the NT, and the NT quote is inspired, but that does not apply to Daniel 12:2-3. I look forward to seeing where you are going with this.

I'm not sure where this is going, but Dan.12:2-3 may be an important passage in relation to the word AIONIOS and the two new testament passages (Mt.25:46; 2 Thess.1:9) you are focusing on in your 3 part series on the word.

Do you see the OLAM life of Dan.12:2 as being equivalent to the EONIAN life of Mt.25:46?

In your viewpoint is the shame & OLAM contempt of Dan.12:2 equivalent to the AIONION KOLASIN of Mt.25:46?

IYO are the two passages speaking of the same event? How about 2 Thess.1:9?
 
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Mark Corbett

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. . . . Do you see the OLAM life of Dan.12:2 as being equivalent to the EONIAN life of Mt.25:46?

In your viewpoint is the shame & OLAM contempt of Dan.12:2 equivalent to the AIONION KOLASIN of Mt.25:46?

IYO are the two passages speaking of the same event? How about 2 Thess.1:9?

Yes, I believe Daniel 12:2, Matthew 25:46 and 2 Thessalonians 1:0 are all speaking of the final destiny of the unrighteous. What they are each saying is not identical, but it all works together.

Daniel 12:2 speaks of how the unrighteous will be eternally viewed by the righteous:

NIV Daniel 12:2 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.
note: the contempt is an emotion felt by the righteous towards the unrighteous. Notice that ONLY some will rise and live forever, which very strongly implies that the others do NOT live forever.

Matthew 25:46 states that the punishment of the unrighteous will be eternal. This verse does not explicitly state what that punishment is, but it very strongly implies what the punishment is:

NIV Matthew 25:46 "Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."
note: again, only one group is said to have "eternal life", which very strongly implies that the other group does NOT live forever.

2 Thessalonians 1:9 is more specific about the nature of the punishment:

NIV 2 Thessalonians 1:9 They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might
 
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ClementofA

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This age refers to the time period we are now living in until Jesus returns. The age to come refers to the eternal age where those who are saved will live with God in the New Heavens and the New Earth.

Mark, i'd suggest an alternate view that the "age to come" refers to the 1000 year millennial age eon.

With that in mind, the verse you quoted can be interpreted to limit aionios life to the millennium:

Lk 18:29 And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, There is no man that hath left house, or parents, or brethren, or wife, or children, for the kingdom of God's sake, 30Who shall not receive manifold more in this age [or eon], and in the age to come lasting [or agelong, eonian] life.

Similarly, Mt.25:46 may be viewed as contrasting destinies in the millennial age eon kingdom of Christ, and to say nothing about final destiny which was addressed earlier in Matthew 1:21; 2:6; 5:26; 12:31-32.

Considering Lk.18:30 above, ECF John Chrysostom limits aionios to a specific age of finite duration:

"For that his[Satan's] kingdom is of this age,[αἰώνιος] i.e., will cease with the present age[αιώνι] ..." (Homily 4 on Ephesians, Chapter II. Verses 1-3).

CHURCH FATHERS: Homily 4 on Ephesians (Chrysostom)

Also, David Burnfield makes an interesting point re Matthew 25:46:

"None of the sins listed in [the context of] Matt.25:46 can be considered blasphemy of the Holy Spirit."

He quotes Mt.12:31:

"Therefore I say to you, any sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven people, but blasphemy against the Spirit shall not be forgiven." (NASB)

And emphasizes the words "any sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven people".

He then says "If we can believe what Christ tells us, then the 'only' sin that is 'not' forgiven is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit which obviously does not include the sins listed in Matt.25:34-44."

Then he quotes from Jan Bonda's book "The One Purpose of God...":

"Verse...46, in particular, has always been cited as undeniable proof that Jesus taught eternal punishment. Yet it is clear that the sins Jesus listed in this passage do not constitute the blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. Assuming Jesus did not utter this word with the intention of contradicting what he said moments before [Matt 12:31], we must accept that the sins mentioned in this passage [Matt 25:46] will eventually be forgiven. This means, however strange it may sound to us, that this statement of Jesus about eternal punishment is not the final word for those who are condemned."

(pg 220-221, Patristic Universalism: An Alternative To The Traditional View of Divine Judgement, 2nd ed, 2016, by David Burnfield)

Spirit blasphemy - unpardonable sin

As further evidence that the "age to come" is not eternal, Paul speaks of both the age to come & multiple future ages in the same context (Eph.1:21; 2:7). Many other passages of the Bible speak of multiple future ages, not just one future age, such as Rev.11:15; Lk.1:33, etc.

Therefore, since Christ spoke of aionios life being obtained in the age to come (Mk.10:30; Lk.18:30), aionios life in these verses can be interpreted as being finite. Likewise with aionios in Mt.25:46 & re the punishments of 2 Th.1:9 & Dan.12:2-3.

Early Church Father, Origen, BTW, referred to what is "after aionios life". And among the ancient Jews there was a belief in an intermediate period of Messiah's reign before the final age.

But getting back to Dan. 12:2-3...

The context suggests the view that both the life & the punishment referred to in v.2 are of finite duration (OLAM), since v.3 speaks of those who will be for OLAM "and further".

2 From those sleeping in the soil of the ground many shall awake, these to eonian life and these to reproach for eonian repulsion." 3 The intelligent shall warn as the warning of the atmosphere, and those justifying many are as the stars for the eon and further." (Dan.12:2-3, CLV)

The Hebrew word for eonian (v.2) & eon (v.3) above is OLAM which is often used of limited durations in the OT. In verse 3 of Dan. 12 are the words "OLAM and further" showing an example of its finite duration in the very next words after Dan. 12:2. Thus, in context, the OLAM occurences in v.2 could also both be understood as being of finite duration.

Additionally, the early church accepted the following Greek OT translation of the Hebrew OT of Dan. 12:3:

καὶ οἱ συνιέντες ἐκλάμψουσιν ὡς ἡ λαμπρότης τοῦ στερεώματος καὶ ἀπὸ τῶν δικαίων τῶν πολλῶν ὡς οἱ ἀστέρες εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας καὶ ἔτι[and further]

Notice the words at the end saying KAI ETI, meaning "and further" or "and still" or "and yet" & other synonyms.

eti: "still, yet...Definition: (a) of time: still, yet, even now, (b) of degree: even, further, more, in addition." Strong's Greek: 2089. ἔτι (eti) -- still, yet

εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας καὶ ἔτι means "into the ages and further" as a translation of the Hebrew L'OLAM WA ED[5703, AD]

So this early church Greek translation of the Hebrew Scriptures agrees with the above translation (& those below) using the words "and further", "futurity", "beyond" & similarly.

3 and·the·ones-being-intelligent they-shall- warn as·warning-of the·atmosphere and·ones-leading-to-righteousness-of the·many-ones as·the·stars for·eon and·futurity (Dan. 12:3, Hebrew-English Interlinear)
http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/OTpdf/dan12.pdf

2 and, many of the sleepers in the dusty ground, shall awake,—these, [shall be] to age-abiding life, but, those, to reproach, and age-abiding abhorrence;
3 and, they who make wise, shall shine like the shining of the expanse,—and, they who bring the many to righteousness, like the stars to times age-abiding and beyond. (Dan. 12:2-3, Rotherham)

2 And the multitude of those sleeping in the dust of the ground do awake, some to life age-during, and some to reproaches—to abhorrence age-during.
3 And those teaching do shine as the brightness of the expanse, and those justifying the multitude as stars to the age and for ever*. (Dan. 12:2-3, YLT)
* for "for ever" Young of YLT says substitute "age during" everywhere in Scripture: http://heraldmag.org/olb/Contents/bibles/ylt.pdf

Dan. 12:2-3 was the only Biblical reference to "life OLAM" Jesus listeners had to understand His meaning of "life aionios"(life OLAM) in Mt.25:46 & elsewhere in the New Testament.

Verse 3 speaks of those justifying "many". Who are these "many"? The same "many" of verse 2, including those who were resurrected to "shame" & "contempt"? IOW universalism?
 
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Doug Melven

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Interesting article, Mark. I'm wondering what your interpretation of Dan. 12:2-3 is. Which text do you consider the accurate or inspired text of those verses, a Hebrew text with OLAM or a Greek text (e.g. the LXX, THD) with AIONIOS?

BTW, my thread addresses some of the same points raised in your series on aionios:

Have you been decieved by your Bible translation?
Looking at Mark's diagram of "olam versus aionios" we can see olam has 3 possible definitions and aionios only has 2.
So olam in Daniel 12:2 would be referring to the 2nd definition. Eternal

I think it should also be noted that if the unbelievers punishment is finite, how can it be described as everlasting.
Anything finite, no matter how long, would be temporary when compared to eternity.
The Scripture writers would have to use proskairos, not aionios.
 
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ClementofA

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I think it should also be noted that if the unbelievers punishment is finite, how can it be described as everlasting.

It's described as aionion which can refer to a finite period of time & often does. For some examples see:

Eternity in the Bible by Gerry Beauchemin – Hope Beyond Hell


The Scripture writers would have to use proskairos, not aionios.

Proskairos in NT usage does not generally, if ever, refer to long periods of time such as an age and ages. To express that you have aion and aionios.
 
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Der Alte

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. . .
Early Church Father, Origen, BTW, referred to what is "after aionios life". And among the ancient Jews there was a belief in an intermediate period of Messiah's reign before the final age. . . .
You continue to quote Origen out-of-course even after the error has been pointed out to you. Here is what Origen said "in context"
Origen Commentary on John 13:19, 60
13:19 "And after eternal life, perhaps it will also leap into the Father who is beyond eternal life"
Origen does not say that anyone or anything does in fact leap into the father. Origen said "perhaps it will leap into the father who is beyond eternal life." Now let's read further in the same source you quoted.
(6o) And he has explained the statement, But “he shall not thirst forever:” as follows with these very words: for the life which comes from the well is eternal and never perishes, as indeed, does the first life which comes from the well,; the life he gives remains. For the grace and the gift of our Savior is not taken away, nor is it consumed, nor does it perish, when one partakes of it.
Commentary on the Gospel According to John
I think we can safely assume that Origen used the same Greek or Latin word for eternal in both 13:19 and 13:60. Therefore Origen proves absolutely nothing! Note the language in para. 60 is not speculative, Origen makes five direct statements "eternal" life "never perishes,""remains.""is not taken away,""[is not] consumed,""[does not] perish."


 
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Der Alte

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ClementofA

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Quoting from a book written by an amateur who neither states nor demonstrates any credible knowledge in Koine Greek.

The article is full of quotes by scholars & learned men. Anyone can compile such. You, "an amateur", do the same in your posts on this site. So what's that saying re pot, kettle?
 
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Der Alte

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The article is full of quotes by scholars & learned men. Anyone can compile such. You, "an amateur", do the same in your posts on this site. So what's that saying re pot, kettle?
No I do not do the same! I do not present myself, nor does anyone quote me, as a subject matter expert. If Beauchamin quotes credible sources the prudent person would check the primary sources and quote them directly.
.....The problem with quoting second hand sources is the very real possibility that they are quoted out-of-context. See e.g. your quote from Origen above where you omitted the word "perhaps" and continue to ignore para. 60.
 
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ClementofA

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You continue to quote Origen out-of-course even after the error has been pointed out to you. Here is what Origen said "in context"
Origen Commentary on John 13:19, 60
13:19 "And after eternal life, perhaps it will also leap into the Father who is beyond eternal life"
Origen does not say that anyone or anything does in fact leap into the father. Origen said "perhaps it will leap into the father who is beyond eternal life." Now let's read further in the same source you quoted.
(6o) And he has explained the statement, But “he shall not thirst forever:” as follows with these very words: for the life which comes from the well is eternal and never perishes, as indeed, does the first life which comes from the well,; the life he gives remains. For the grace and the gift of our Savior is not taken away, nor is it consumed, nor does it perish, when one partakes of it.
Commentary on the Gospel According to John
I think we can safely assume that Origen used the same Greek or Latin word for eternal in both 13:19 and 13:60. Therefore Origen proves absolutely nothing! Note the language in para. 60 is not speculative, Origen makes five direct statements "eternal" life "never perishes,""remains.""is not taken away,""[is not] consumed,""[does not] perish."


All of what follows is from previous discussions of this topic:
I like how unis hold up Origen as a poster boy for ECF universalism but when something Origen says contradicts universalism, as does Comm John 13:60, they have all kinds of arguments why Origen is wrong. This is trying to eat your cake and have it too.

What contradiction? There's no contradiction to universalism there.

Origen makes it clear that "eternal fire" (Mt.25:46) is remedial, corrective & temporary:

"Chapter 10. On the Resurrection, and the Judgment, the Fire of Hell, and Punishments."

"1. But since the discourse has reminded us of the subjects of a future judgment and of retribution, and of the punishments of sinners, according to the threatenings of holy Scripture and the contents of the Church's teaching— viz., that when the time of judgment comes, everlasting fire, and outer darkness, and a prison, and a furnace, and other punishments of like nature, have been prepared for sinners— let us see what our opinions on these points ought to be."

"...nevertheless in such a way, that even the body which rises again of those who are to be destined to everlasting fire or to severe punishments, is by the very change of the resurrection so incorruptible, that it cannot be corrupted and dissolved even by severe punishments. If, then, such be the qualities of that body which will arise from the dead, let us now see what is the meaning of the threatening of eternal fire."

"...And when this dissolution and rending asunder of soul shall have been tested by the application of fire, a solidification undoubtedly into a firmer structure will take place, and a restoration be effected."

[De Principis Book 2]

CHURCH FATHERS: De Principiis, Book II (Origen)

There is no contradiction! In 13:19 there was one speculative comment "after [eternal life,] perhaps it will also leap into the Father." In 13:60 Origen makes five definitive, NOT speculative, statements about eternal life. "eternal life," "[1] never perishes,""[2]remains.""[3]is not taken away,""[4] is not consumed,"[5] does [not] perish."

If you say [a] "it looks like it will rain today, maybe it will rain" & then say "it won't rain today", then [c] you are contradicting yourself. Both statements cannot be true.

As to aionios life, if it refers to life during the aions and, as Origen says, the aions end, then when all will leap into the Father, who is "beyond eternal life", then it "remains" & is "not taken away" during the aions. It isn't "consumed" but, as Origen said "leaps" into the Father who is "beyond eternal life". Notice BTW that it doesn't say "maybe" the Father is "beyond eternal life", but that He - is - "beyond eternal life".

"And after eternal life, perhaps it will also leap into the Father who is beyond eternal life".

The word "perhaps" is related to the "it will also leap", whatever "it" refers to. Not to the statement before which definitively speaks of there being an "after eternal life", nor to the phrase after it, "beyond eternal life".

What is the Greek word for "never" in "never persishes"? In some bible translations it involves a deceptive rendering of the word aion which means literally eon, not "never". So your opinion about what Origen said in section 60 can be easily explained away. And be in harmony with what he said earlier in statements about after/beyond "eternal life".

.....It appears to me that "pope" Ramelli is pushing her agenda and ignoring everything in Origen which contradicts her.

What gives you that idea & why speak of her as pope? She has read Origen in the original Greek & Latin. You haven't. She is a partistic scholar, especially of Origen. You are not.

Where can I review the complete text of Origen Comm John to verify that the alleged quotes are correct?

As you've been previously informed, this is where i got the Greek text of Origen that i posted:

TLG - Home

Go to the same source from which you quoted all the Greek in the other thread. The Greek for comm John 13:60 will be right there.

I may do that. Although when i checked last year most texts of Origen were unavailable in the ancient koine Greek language.

Not relevant! I don't see any Greek here. What exactly do you think this proves?

It opposes your opinions based on English translations alone, such as in section 60 above & your claims re Origen's "definition" of aion & aionios as "eternal". And it opposes your claims that the definition of aion/ios & olam in the Scriptures is "eternal" & always means "eternal" except when used in hyperbole.

Clearly your arguments don't have even half a leg to stand on.

Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism

Universalism – The Truth Shall Make You Free

Eternity in the Bible by Gerry Beauchemin – Hope Beyond Hell


-----------------------


Then De Principiis contradicts commentary on John.

How is that?

Since you do not know what "it" refers to how can you cite this paragraph as evidence of anything? Try reading the paragraph in-context at your link maybe you will understand it then. I suggest you read para.18

Whatever "it" refers to doesn't change the fact of Origen speaking of "after eternal life" and "beyond eternal life", which was supported also by:

Evagrius's Kephalaia Gnostika

Evagrius's Kephalaia Gnostika: A New Translation of the Unreformed Text from ...
By Ilaria L.E. Ramelli (pages 10- 11)

Where again Origen refers to what is after eternal life, as well as after "the ages", beyond "ages of the ages" [often mistranslated forever & ever] and all ages.

Further re Origen & aionios:

"That threats of aionios punishment are helpful for those immature who abstain from evil out of fear and not for love is repeated, e.g. in CC 6,26: "it is not helpful to go up to what will come beyond that punishment, for the sake of those who restrain themselves only with much difficulty, out of fear of the aionios punishment"; Hom. in Jer. 20 (19), 4: for a married woman it is better to believe that a faithless woman will undergo aionios punishment and keep faithful, rather than knowing the truth and becoming disloyal;" (p.178-9).

Ilaria Ramelli, The Christian Doctrine of Apokatastasis: A Critical Assessment from the New Testament to Eriugena (Brill, 2013. 890 pp.)

CHURCH FATHERS: Contra Celsus, Book VI (Origen)
CHURCH FATHERS: Contra Celsus, Book VI (Origen)

Furthermore re Origen & aionios, Origen makes it clear that "eternal fire" (Mt.25:46) is remedial, corrective & temporary:

"Chapter 10. On the Resurrection, and the Judgment, the Fire of Hell, and Punishments."

"1. But since the discourse has reminded us of the subjects of a future judgment and of retribution, and of the punishments of sinners, according to the threatenings of holy Scripture and the contents of the Church's teaching— viz., that when the time of judgment comes, everlasting fire, and outer darkness, and a prison, and a furnace, and other punishments of like nature, have been prepared for sinners— let us see what our opinions on these points ought to be."

"...nevertheless in such a way, that even the body which rises again of those who are to be destined to everlasting fire or to severe punishments, is by the very change of the resurrection so incorruptible, that it cannot be corrupted and dissolved even by severe punishments. If, then, such be the qualities of that body which will arise from the dead, let us now see what is the meaning of the threatening of eternal fire."

"...And when this dissolution and rending asunder of soul shall have been tested by the application of fire, a solidification undoubtedly into a firmer structure will take place, and a restoration be effected."

[De Principis Book 2]

CHURCH FATHERS: De Principiis, Book II (Origen)

Links to the Works of Origen in English, Greek, and Latin
Links to the Works of Origen in English, Greek, and Latin

And yet more re Origen & aion/ios:

"Origen, the greatest exegete of the early Church, was well aware of the polysemy of aión and its adjectival forms. In Hom. in Ex. 6.13 he writes: “Whenever Scripture says, ‘from aeon to aeon,’ the reference is to an interval of time, and it is clear that it will have an end. And if Scripture says, ‘in another aeon,’ what is indicated is clearly a longer time, and yet an end is still fixed. And when the ‘aeons of the aeons’ are mentioned, a certain limit is again posited, perhaps unknown to us, but surely established by God” (quoted in Ramelli, The Christian Doctrine of Apokatastasis, p. 161). And Comm. in Rom. 6.5: “In Scriptures, aión is sometimes found in the sense of something that knows no end; at times it designates something that has no end in the present world, but will have in the future one; sometimes it means a certain stretch of time; or again the duration of the life of a single person is called aión” (quoted in Ramelli, p. 163).

Sometimes Eternity Ain’t Forever: Aiónios and the Universalist Hope

Origen did NOT say there was a beyond eternal life.

He did. You saw the English translation saying so. And the Greek as well. Sorry to disappoint you, but the vast majority of people are not going to be kept alive only to be tortured forever by Love Omnipotent.

I couldn't find it at TLG.

Did you pay for the service?

If most texts of Origen were unavailable how were you able to copy from Origen's commentary on John?

John's commentary of the portion i quoted was available. AFAIK the site has many Greek works, but no Latin. Much of what Origen wrote is in Latin.
 
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ClementofA

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No I do not do the same!

You do compile quotes of scholars, just like he does, as i said:

The article is full of quotes by scholars & learned men. Anyone can compile such. You, "an amateur", do the same in your posts on this site. So what's that saying re pot, kettle?

 
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Doug Melven

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It's described as aionion which can refer to a finite period of time & often does. For some examples see:

Eternity in the Bible by Gerry Beauchemin – Hope Beyond Hell




Proskairos in NT usage does not generally, if ever, refer to long periods of time such as an age and ages. To express that you have aion and aionios.
You completely missed the point of what I was saying.
proskairos G4340
Definition:
From G4314 and G2540; for the occasion only that is temporary: - dur- [eth] for awhile endure for a time for a season temporal.

What you keep describing as the duration of the punishment for the sinner is the same as the definition for proskairos.

If a punishment for sin last for 1 age or 10 ages or a 100 ages and it is finite, when compared to that which is eternal or compared to eternity it is temporary.
 
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All of what follows is from previous discussions of this topic:
What contradiction? There's no contradiction to universalism there.
Origen makes it clear that "eternal fire" (Mt.25:46) is remedial, corrective & temporary:
"Chapter 10. On the Resurrection, and the Judgment, the Fire of Hell, and Punishments."
"1. But since the discourse has reminded us of the subjects of a future judgment and of retribution, and of the punishments of sinners, according to the threatenings of holy Scripture and the contents of the Church's teaching— viz., that when the time of judgment comes, everlasting fire, and outer darkness, and a prison, and a furnace, and other punishments of like nature, have been prepared for sinners— let us see what our opinions on these points ought to be."
"...nevertheless in such a way, that even the body which rises again of those who are to be destined to everlasting fire or to severe punishments, is by the very change of the resurrection so incorruptible, that it cannot be corrupted and dissolved even by severe punishments. If, then, such be the qualities of that body which will arise from the dead, let us now see what is the meaning of the threatening of eternal fire."
"...And when this dissolution and rending asunder of soul shall have been tested by the application of fire, a solidification undoubtedly into a firmer structure will take place, and a restoration be effected."
[De Principis Book 2]
CHURCH FATHERS: De Principiis, Book II (Origen)
If you say [a] "it looks like it will rain today, maybe it will rain" & then say "it won't rain today", then [c] you are contradicting yourself. Both statements cannot be true.
As to aionios life, if it refers to life during the aions and, as Origen says, the aions end, then when all will leap into the Father, who is "beyond eternal life", then it "remains" & is "not taken away" during the aions. It isn't "consumed" but, as Origen said "leaps" into the Father who is "beyond eternal life". Notice BTW that it doesn't say "maybe" the Father is "beyond eternal life", but that He - is - "beyond eternal life".
"And after eternal life, perhaps it will also leap into the Father who is beyond eternal life".
The word "perhaps" is related to the "it will also leap", whatever "it" refers to. Not to the statement before which definitively speaks of there being an "after eternal life", nor to the phrase after it, "beyond eternal life".
What is the Greek word for "never" in "never persishes"? In some bible translations it involves a deceptive rendering of the word aion which means literally eon, not "never"
So your opinion about what Origen said in section 60 can be easily explained away. And be in harmony with what he said earlier in statements about after/beyond "eternal life".
If that is true then start explaining why Origen Comm John 13.19 does not contradict 13:60? You do know the meaning of "perhaps" don't you?

What gives you that idea & why speak of her as pope? She has read Origen in the original Greek & Latin. You haven't. She is a partistic scholar, especially of Origen. You are not.
As you've been previously informed, this is where i got the Greek text of Origen that i posted:
Once again I ask what is a "partistic father?" Why do I call Ramelli "a pope who must be obeyed" because you have used that phrase several times rejecting sources which contradict you.

I may do that. Although when i checked last year most texts of Origen were unavailable in the ancient koine Greek language.
It opposes your opinions based on English translations alone, such as in section 60 above & your claims re Origen's "definition" of aion & aionios as "eternal". And it opposes your claims that the definition of aion/ios & olam in the Scriptures is "eternal" & always means "eternal" except when used in hyperbole.
Clearly your arguments don't have even half a leg to stand on.
Whatever "it" refers to doesn't change the fact of Origen speaking of "after eternal life" and "beyond eternal life", which was supported also by:
Evagrius's Kephalaia Gnostika: A New Translation of the Unreformed Text from ...
By Ilaria L.E. Ramelli (pages 10- 11)
Where again Origen refers to what is after eternal life, as well as after "the ages", beyond "ages of the ages" [often mistranslated forever & ever] and all ages.
Further re Origen & aionios:
"That threats of aionios punishment are helpful for those immature who abstain from evil out of fear and not for love is repeated, e.g. in CC 6,26: "it is not helpful to go up to what will come beyond that punishment, for the sake of those who restrain themselves only with much difficulty, out of fear of the aionios punishment"; Hom. in Jer. 20 (19), 4: for a married woman it is better to believe that a faithless woman will undergo aionios punishment and keep faithful, rather than knowing the truth and becoming disloyal;" (p.178-9).
Ilaria Ramelli, The Christian Doctrine of Apokatastasis: A Critical Assessment from the New Testament to Eriugena (Brill, 2013. 890 pp.)
Furthermore re Origen & aionios, Origen makes it clear that "eternal fire" (Mt.25:46) is remedial, corrective & temporary:
"Chapter 10. On the Resurrection, and the Judgment, the Fire of Hell, and Punishments."
"1. But since the discourse has reminded us of the subjects of a future judgment and of retribution, and of the punishments of sinners, according to the threatenings of holy Scripture and the contents of the Church's teaching— viz., that when the time of judgment comes, everlasting fire, and outer darkness, and a prison, and a furnace, and other punishments of like nature, have been prepared for sinners— let us see what our opinions on these points ought to be."
"...nevertheless in such a way, that even the body which rises again of those who are to be destined to everlasting fire or to severe punishments, is by the very change of the resurrection so incorruptible, that it cannot be corrupted and dissolved even by severe punishments. If, then, such be the qualities of that body which will arise from the dead, let us now see what is the meaning of the threatening of eternal fire."
"...And when this dissolution and rending asunder of soul shall have been tested by the application of fire, a solidification undoubtedly into a firmer structure will take place, and a restoration be effected."
[De Principis Book 2]
And yet more re Origen & aion/ios:
"Origen, the greatest exegete of the early Church, was well aware of the polysemy of aión and its adjectival forms. In Hom. in Ex. 6.13 he writes: “Whenever Scripture says, ‘from aeon to aeon,’ the reference is to an interval of time, and it is clear that it will have an end. And if Scripture says, ‘in another aeon,’ what is indicated is clearly a longer time, and yet an end is still fixed. And when the ‘aeons of the aeons’ are mentioned, a certain limit is again posited, perhaps unknown to us, but surely established by God” (quoted in Ramelli, The Christian Doctrine of Apokatastasis, p. 161). And Comm. in Rom. 6.5: “In Scriptures, aión is sometimes found in the sense of something that knows no end; at times it designates something that has no end in the present world, but will have in the future one; sometimes it means a certain stretch of time; or again the duration of the life of a single person is called aión” (quoted in Ramelli, p. 163).
He did. You saw the English translation saying so. And the Greek as well. Sorry to disappoint you, but the vast majority of people are not going to be kept alive only to be tortured forever by Love Omnipotent.
Did you pay for the service?
John's commentary of the portion i quoted was available. AFAIK the site has many Greek works, but no Latin. Much of what Origen wrote is in Latin.
All this smoke and mirrors and none of it proves anything about Origen Commentary on John 13:19 and John 13:60.
Here is why your quote from Origen does not say what you claim it does.

(17) He says that eternal life is the [goal], as it were, or the water that springs up, as indeed Solomon says, when he talks about the bridegroom in the Song of Songs, Behold he has come leaping upon the mountains, skipping upon the hills.
(18) For, as there, the bridegroom leaps upon souls that are more noble-natured and divine, called mountains, and skips upon the inferior ones called hills, so here the fountain that appears in the one who drinks of the water that Jesus gives leaps into eternal life.
(19) And after eternal life, perhaps it [the fountain] will also leap into the Father who is beyond eternal life. For Christ is life but he who is greater than Christ is greater than life.
(20) when the promise to the one who is blessed because he hungers and thirsts for righteousness is fulfilled, then he who drinks of the water that Jesus will give will have the fountain of water that leaps into eternal life arise within him.
...
(26) But we shall take note, furthermore, of whether it is possible that the difference between the benefit to those who would associate with and be with the truth itself, and the benefit we are thought to derive from the Scriptures, even if they be accurately understood, is revealed by the fact that the one who drinks from the fountain or Jacob thirsts again, but the one who drinks of the water that Jesus gives possesses a fountain of water within himself which leaps into eternal life.
Now show me how there is no contradiction between 13:19 and 13:60
(6o) And he has explained the statement, But “he shall not thirst forever:” as follows with these very words: for the life which comes from the well is eternal and never perishes, as indeed, does the first life which comes from the well,; the life he gives remains. For the grace and the gift of our Savior is not taken away, nor is it consumed, nor does it perish, when one partakes of it. P. 81​
 
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ClementofA

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You completely missed the point of what I was saying.
proskairos G4340
Definition:
From G4314 and G2540; for the occasion only that is temporary: - dur- [eth] for awhile endure for a time for a season temporal.

What you keep describing as the duration of the punishment for the sinner is the same as the definition for proskairos.

If a punishment for sin last for 1 age or 10 ages or a 100 ages and it is finite, when compared to that which is eternal or compared to eternity it is temporary.

Proskairos can mean "for a season", e.g. 3 months. Evidently God didn't want to give the impression it might last only 3 months. Therefore He didn't say proskairos. Instead He said aion, meaning literally an "age". And aionios, meaning literally pertaining to an age or ages.
 
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Doug Melven

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Proskairos can mean "for a season", e.g. 3 months. Evidently God didn't want to give the impression it might last only 3 months. Therefore He didn't say proskairos. Instead He said aion, meaning literally an "age". And aionios, meaning literally pertaining to an age or ages.
Somehow, you are still missing it.
You guys say "the punishment for sin is for a time".
One of the definitions of proskairos is

Definition:
- dur- [eth] for awhile endure for a time

Looks the same to me.
Also look at 2 Corinthians 4:18
While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.
And 1 John 2:17
And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.

This world is temporary. And it has seen ages.
 
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ClementofA

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Somehow, you are still missing it.
You guys say "the punishment for sin is for a time".

I can't speak for others & haven't seen any URist who has said what you quote. What i say is what Scripture says in Mt.25:46, KOLASIN AIONION. AIONION doesn't mean "time". There is another Greek word for that, CHRONOS.

OTOH, PROSKAIROS means literally "for a season". Punishment is not for 3 months only, but as Jesus says aionion, transliterated eonian, meaning pertaining to an eon or eons.

Scholar's Corner: The Center for Bible studies in Christian Universalism
 
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. . .
Also look at 2 Corinthians 4:18
While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.

Doug, I agree with you that 2 Cor 4:18 is powerful evidence that aionios means eternal.

NIV 2 Corinthians 4:18 So we fix our eyes not on what is seen, but on what is unseen, since what is seen is temporary, but what is unseen is eternal.

BGT 2 Corinthians 4:18 μὴ σκοπούντων ἡμῶν τὰ βλεπόμενα ἀλλὰ τὰ μὴ βλεπόμενα· τὰ γὰρ βλεπόμενα πρόσκαιρα, τὰ δὲ μὴ βλεπόμενα αἰώνια.


Three key words/phrases help us: "what is seen"; "temporary"; and "eternal".

aionios (translated "eternal") is used in contrast to proskairos (translated "temporary")

It's true that proskairos can refer to things which are temporary but which last for various limited lengths of time. But in this verse, proskairos is specifically referring to things which are "seen". Things which are seen include not only some of the buildings in Paul's day which can still be seen TODAY, but even some of the mountains and seas, which will still be seen in the Millennial Kingdom (if the premellinnial view is correct). In this context, it does not make sense for the opposite of proskairos to be merely "lasting for a limited age", because some things which are seen will last beyond our own current limited age! It makes sense for the opposite of proskairos to mean "eternal"! This is even more clear because the types of "unseen things" which Paul almost certainly had in mind are things like God and the good angels and God's Kingdom. All these unseen things really are eternal!

Thus, we continue to see that aionios means "eternal". And this meaning is fatal to the Universalist view because of Matthew 25:46:

NIV Matthew 25:46 "Then they will go away to eternal (aionios) punishment, but the righteous to eternal (aionios) life."
 
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