Justification - Infusion or Imputation?

Tree of Life · Dec 12, 2017

To my non-Reformed brothers and sisters:

What's wrong with saying that Jesus' righteousness and his death for sins is imputed to believers in justification? Don't the Scriptures teach this?

Romans 3:21-26 -
21 But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it— 22 the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God’s righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins. 26 It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

Romans 10:3-4 -
3 For, being ignorant of the righteousness of God, and seeking to establish their own, they did not submit to God’s righteousness. 4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

Galatians 3:23-29 -
23 Now before faith came, we were held captive under the law, imprisoned until the coming faith would be revealed. 24 So then, the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith. 25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian, 26 for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith. 27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s offspring, heirs according to promise.

Philippians 3:8-9 -
8 Indeed, I count everything as loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord. For his sake I have suffered the loss of all things and count them as rubbish, in order that I may gain Christ 9 and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which comes through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God that depends on faith—

1 Corinthians 1:30-31 -
30 And because of him you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, righteousness and sanctification and redemption, 31 so that, as it is written, “Let the one who boasts, boast in the Lord.”

Colossians 2:11-15 -
11 In him also you were circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, 12 having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the powerful working of God, who raised him from the dead. 13 And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses, 14 by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross. 15 He disarmed the rulers and authorities and put them to open shame, by triumphing over them in him.

Galatians 2:20-21 -
20 I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. 21 I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness were through the law, then Christ died for no purpose.

Imputation is the idea that the righteous record of Jesus is credited to our account along with his death for sins. So that when God looks at us, from a legal standpoint, he reckons us as perfectly righteous in his eyes, worthy of all his blessings, perfectly acceptable to him, and worthy heirs of all his promises. We are under God's blessing and not under his wrath or displeasure. Also when he looks at us he reckons that our sins are atoned for because a death for sins is credited to our account.

Imputation is different from actually existentially being righteous. This happens over a long period of time in our hearts and lives through sanctification. But even as we are being made righteous existentially, we are accepted as righteous legally. As Hebrews 10:14 says - "14 For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified."

So what's wrong with the idea of imputation?

fhansen · Dec 12, 2017

The idea with infused righteousness is that justification and sanctification can never be neatly divided or separated. God may impute, or perhaps better put, declare, us righteous in the sense of forgiveness and also of cleansing, renewing, rebirthing, etc, but His purpose in any case has also always been about change in His wayward creation, away from sin and towards authentic righteousness or justice, from the get–go. He wants us not only forgiven, but also to ‘go, and sin no more’.

So the “righteousness of God” as opposed to the “righteousness” of man, that which man does when he’s on his own, apart from God, doing what’s right in his own eyes for better or worse, is a true righteousness, that which God created man to have (the natural law as it’s been called), and that comes only as communion between man and God is established-or reestablished-as a part of man’s justification. This relationship or partnership or communion with God, ‘apart from Whom we can do nothing’, is itself an aspect of man’s justice, how things are meant to be for man, the proper order of things. And it cannot help but begin to produce fruit immediately, to the extent that He remains in us and we in Him, a concept denoting and demanding our continuous cooperation, without which justice would be lost. Without righteousness being granted, given, infused in this way, by means of this indwelling, we can end up like the person in Matt 12:43-45 who was swept clean of an impure spirit, everything put in order, only to have more spirits return later making his state worse than before. And without our cooperation we can suffer the fate of the “wicked and lazy servant” in the Parable of the Talents, who refused to invest his talents.

So it’s a matter of being oriented towards and then continuing to cooperate with or participate in the righteousness God gives us, walking with Him in this effort, doing the best we can with the gifts given: time, opportunity, revelation/knowledge, and grace. ‘To those who are given much, much will be demanded’ Luke 12:48.

The whole drama of the Fall of man with all the pain and suffering and sin and death that followed makes little sense unless man is responsible in some way with the gift of justification once received. If God didn’t put us here to learn something, to gain wisdom so that we’ll hunger and thirst for righteousness, finally and fully recognized in the person of Jesus Christ, and so then to desire to ‘work out our salvation with He who works in us’, then He may as well have precluded all the pain and just stocked heaven with the elect and hell with the reprobate from the beginning.

concretecamper · Dec 12, 2017

Tree of Life said:
To my non-Reformed brothers and sisters:

What's wrong with saying that Jesus' righteousness and his death for sins is imputed to believers in justification? Don't the Scriptures teach this?

Scripture does not teach this

Tree of Life said:
Imputation is the idea that the righteous record of Jesus is credited to our account along with his death for sins. So that when God looks at us, from a legal standpoint, he reckons us as perfectly righteous in his eyes, worthy of all his blessings, perfectly acceptable to him, and worthy heirs of all his promises

If God signed a contract with you I guess you could get to think this. But the last time I checked God made a Covenant with us. Contract vs Covenant...two different things. Rather than saying "this is yours and this is Mine", I prefer to look at it as "I am yours and you are Mine"

Tree of Life said:
Imputation is different from actually existentially being righteous. This happens over a long period of time in our hearts and lives through sanctification

Long time or short time.....we all can increase in holiness if we choose. We can also fall back and decrease in holiness.

Tree of Life said:
So what's wrong with the idea of imputation?

It is not scriptural. This novel idea of "Imputation" has never been accepted by His Church

James Chapter 1

Wherefore casting away all uncleanness, and abundance of naughtiness, with meekness receive the ingrafted word, which is able to save your souls. But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves. For if a man be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he shall be compared to a man beholding his own countenance in a glass. For he beheld himself, and went his way, and presently forgot what manner of man he was. But he that hath looked into the perfect law of liberty, and hath continued therein, not becoming a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work; this man shall be blessed in his deed

Phil 1:21 · Dec 12, 2017

Tree of Life said:
So what's wrong with the idea of imputation?

Because if God gave you something for free how can a "church" make you earn it?

FireDragon76 · Dec 12, 2017

ToL, have you read the Lutheran-Catholic Joint Declaration on Justification?

Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification

paragraph 22:

"22.We confess together that God forgives sin by grace and at the same time frees human beings from sin's enslaving power and imparts the gift of new life in Christ. When persons come by faith to share in Christ, God no longer imputes to them their sin and through the Holy Spirit effects in them an active love. These two aspects of God's gracious action are not to be separated, for persons are by faith united with Christ, who in his person is our righteousness (1 Cor 1:30): both the forgiveness of sin and the saving presence of God himself. ..."

Of course there are differences between the Lutheran and Reformed theologies but it might be helpful. I also believe some mainline Presbyterian churches have signed onto this statement.

I know in the spirituality of St. Therese of Lisieux, she spoke of a desire to be "clothed" in God's "justice", because she counts her own justice as tainted. There's a great deal in common in her spirituality with the Lutheran sentiments in some ways.

fhansen · Dec 12, 2017

FireDragon76 said:
ToL, have you read the Lutheran-Catholic Joint Declaration on Justification?

Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification

paragraph 22:

"22.We confess together that God forgives sin by grace and at the same time frees human beings from sin's enslaving power and imparts the gift of new life in Christ. When persons come by faith to share in Christ, God no longer imputes to them their sin and through the Holy Spirit effects in them an active love. These two aspects of God's gracious action are not to be separated, for persons are by faith united with Christ, who in his person is our righteousness (1 Cor 1:30): both the forgiveness of sin and the saving presence of God himself. ..."

Of course there are differences between the Lutheran and Reformed theologies but it might be helpful. Lutherans tend to emphasize God pardoning us more than imputing us all of Christ's works, but we don't deny imputation altogether.

Both parties were careful in this wording, though not always as careful as they could've been perhaps. But past sin certainly isn't imputed to us, as it's forgiven, "taken away", and forgotten. And then, positively, the "saving presence of God himself" is a real righteousness, the very justice man lacks as a result of the Fall. Both of these concepts, the cleansing/removal of sin and the presence (direct knowledge of) God are expressed in the New Covenant prophecy of Jer 31:33-34. This is how man becomes justified; God, then, placing His law in our minds and writing it on our hearts.

FireDragon76 · Dec 12, 2017

I don't see how the statement changes what our churches preach, though. And we do talk about justification differently, this statement doesn't really change that. We just agree the differences aren't as stark as in the past, I guess.

What God imputes to us is real, and it is improper to characterize our justification as "legal fiction", in that he will make good on his promise, assuming we do not reject the faith. But at the same time we Lutherans deny sinless perfection and our ethics is decidedly different from Catholicism and is based on safeguarding the promise as much as possible, so that consciences are not harmed.

I believe Catholics are approaching this with their increasing emphasis on personalist ethics, that we don't consider ethical principles abstracted from concrete persons. Perhaps in some ways, this could prove superior in the long run. Personalism does influence our shift in how we preach about the Law, in my own church, though it is far from unanimous.

1213 · Dec 12, 2017

Tree of Life said:
...
So what's wrong with the idea of imputation?

I believe righteousness is something that should be seen also in persons actions. Righteousness is the wisdom of the just, which is like right understanding and attitude that makes person to do right actions.

He who does righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. To this end the Son of God was revealed, that he might destroy the works of the devil. Whoever is born of God doesn't commit sin, because his seed remains in him; and he can't sin, because he is born of God. In this the children of God are revealed, and the children of the devil. Whoever doesn't do righteousness is not of God, neither is he who doesn't love his brother.
1 John 3:7-10

It is not something that comes by works, works are only a result of righteousness. That right understanding can be inputted to people by the teachings and by the example of Jesus. Person who receives what Jesus said, can be counted as righteous.

Righteousness doesn’t necessary mean that person doesn’t make mistakes, because it is also said:

For a righteous man falls seven times, and rises up again; But the wicked are overthrown by calamity.
Pro. 24:16

Righteous person asks forgiveness when he knows he has done mistake and repents and wants to be better next time. Here is one example of this righteous mind setting:

"Two men went up into the temple to pray; one was a Pharisee, and the other was a tax collector. The Pharisee stood and prayed to himself like this: 'God, I thank you, that I am not like the rest of men, extortioners, unrighteous, adulterers, or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week. I give tithes of all that I get.' But the tax collector, standing far away, wouldn't even lift up his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, 'God, be merciful to me, a sinner!' I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but he who humbles himself will be exalted."
Luke 18:10-14

That person had made wrong things, but he understood what is right thing and that is why he can be counted righteous. Right understanding leads to that person wants to reject wrong things and be better.

PeaceB · Dec 12, 2017

Tree of Life said:
To my non-Reformed brothers and sisters:

What's wrong with saying that Jesus' righteousness and his death for sins is imputed to believers in justification? Don't the Scriptures teach this?

Romans 3:21-26 -
21 But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it— 22 the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God’s righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins. 26 It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

Romans 10:3-4 -
3 For, being ignorant of the righteousness of God, and seeking to establish their own, they did not submit to God’s righteousness. 4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

Galatians 3:23-29 -
23 Now before faith came, we were held captive under the law, imprisoned until the coming faith would be revealed. 24 So then, the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith. 25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian, 26 for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith. 27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s offspring, heirs according to promise.

Philippians 3:8-9 -
8 Indeed, I count everything as loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord. For his sake I have suffered the loss of all things and count them as rubbish, in order that I may gain Christ 9 and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which comes through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God that depends on faith—

1 Corinthians 1:30-31 -
30 And because of him you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, righteousness and sanctification and redemption, 31 so that, as it is written, “Let the one who boasts, boast in the Lord.”

Colossians 2:11-15 -
11 In him also you were circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, 12 having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the powerful working of God, who raised him from the dead. 13 And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses, 14 by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross. 15 He disarmed the rulers and authorities and put them to open shame, by triumphing over them in him.

Galatians 2:20-21 -
20 I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. 21 I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness were through the law, then Christ died for no purpose.

Imputation is the idea that the righteous record of Jesus is credited to our account along with his death for sins. So that when God looks at us, from a legal standpoint, he reckons us as perfectly righteous in his eyes, worthy of all his blessings, perfectly acceptable to him, and worthy heirs of all his promises. We are under God's blessing and not under his wrath or displeasure. Also when he looks at us he reckons that our sins are atoned for because a death for sins is credited to our account.

Imputation is different from actually existentially being righteous. This happens over a long period of time in our hearts and lives through sanctification. But even as we are being made righteous existentially, we are accepted as righteous legally. As Hebrews 10:14 says - "14 For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified."

So what's wrong with the idea of imputation?

I do not think that a Catholic must object to the concept that righteousness is imputed/credited to a believer (in the sense of a legal declaration that the person is righteous before God).

The main point of disagreement seems to relate to the basis on which the legal declaration is made. In the Catholic view Jesus died on the cross to merit the graces by which men are saved. That grace (faith, hope, and charity) is then infused into the soul of the believer, and it is the presence of this grace in the person's soul that is the basis on which he is declared righteous. Simply put, the person is declared righteous because God has infused a real righteous quality into his soul.

It seems that in the majority Protestant view, when a person is saved his soul remains just as black as it ever was (before the process of sanctification begins). God does not look at the actual soul of the person (which is black) but rather employs a legal fiction by which God imputes Jesus's own personal righteousness to the person's account. It is the idea of a dung heap being covered in snow. God does not see the dung heap which is our souls, but only the snow which is Jesus's perfect obedience even unto death. Luther says:

Here a theological question arises. How can we become “purer than snow” even though the remnants of sin always cling to us? I answer: I have always said that man is divided into spirit and flesh. Therefore as far as the total man is concerned, there remain remnants of sin or, as Paul calls them (2 Cor. 7:1), “defilements of body and spirit.” Defilements of the spirit are doubt about grace, imperfect faith, murmurings against God, impatience, imperfect knowledge of the will of God, and the like. Defilements of the flesh are adultery, lusts, murder, brawls, and the like. The defilements of the spirit are increased in the world through heretics, the defilements of the flesh through other offenses, so that both spirit and body are polluted. Because of these defilements we are never as pure and holy as we really should be. Still we have obtained Baptism, which is most pure; we have obtained the Word, which is most pure; and in the Word and Baptism we have by faith obtained the blood of Christ, which is surely most pure. According to this purity, which in spirit and faith we have from Christ and from the Sacraments that He instituted, the Christian is rightly said to be purer than snow, purer than the sun and the stars, even though the defilements of spirit and flesh cling to him. These are concealed and covered by the cleanness and purity of Christ, which we obtain by hearing the Word and by faith.

We should note diligently that this purity is an alien purity, for Christ adorns and clothes us with His righteousness. So if you look at a Christian without the righteousness and purity of Christ, as he is in himself, even though he be most holy, you will find not only no cleanness, but what I might call diabolical blackness. Yet what does the pope do in his teaching but separate us from Christ, rob us of Baptism, the hearing of the Gospel, and the promises of God, and leave us by ourselves? This is to rob man of all purity and to leave nothing but sin. Therefore if they ask: “Sin always clings to man; how, then, can he be washed so as to make him whiter than snow?” you reply: “We should look at a man, not as he is in himself, but as he is in Christ. There you will find that believers are washed and cleansed by the blood of Christ. Who is so profane as to deny that the blood of Christ is most pure? So why should a believer doubt his purity? Because he still feels the remnants of sin in himself? But all purity must be this alien purity of Christ and His blood. It must not be our own, which we put on ourselves.” In a household, is not the son the heir of the father? (Gal. 4:1, 2.) Yet because of his immaturity he is carried, cared for, and ruled by a mere maid. If you look at the carrying here, is not the son, who is the heir, the servant of the maid, whom he is forced to obey? Yet he does not stop being the heir, for he is descended from the father and not from the maid. We should evaluate the Christian the same way and look at him as he was brought out of Baptism, not as he was born of his parents. Regeneration is stronger than the first birth, because it is not from man but from God and His promise, which our faith grasps, as the prophet now shows more fully. (Luther’s Works Vol. 12, pages 366 – 367.)

But the fact of the matter (and there are plenty of Protestants who admit it) is that while Scripture speaks of faith being credited as righteousness, there simply is no verse in the Bible that state that Jesus's own personal righteousness is imputed to the believer.

fhansen · Dec 12, 2017

FireDragon76 said:
I don't see how the statement changes what our churches preach, though. And we do talk about justification differently, this statement doesn't really change that. We just agree the differences aren't as stark as in the past, I guess.

What God imputes to us is real, and it is improper to characterize our justification as "legal fiction", in that he will make good on his promise, assuming we do not reject the faith. But at the same time we Lutherans deny sinless perfection and our ethics is decidedly different from Catholicism and is based on safeguarding the promise as much as possible, so that consciences are not harmed.

I believe Catholics are approaching this with their increasing emphasis on personalist ethics, that we don't consider ethical principles abstracted from concrete persons. Perhaps in some ways, this could prove superior in the long run. Personalism does influence our shift in how we preach about the Law, in my own church, though it is far from unanimous.

Yes, it just means that right is right and wrong is wrong and it's perfectly ok to recognize righteous or wrong behavior in people, which may well indicate the state of their hearts, the degree of their justice. And the goal in Catholicism is perfection, only because we believe this is God's goal for us, even if it may not be fully realized in this life. But in the end perfection is simply to be who God created us to be -and we weren't created to be sinners after all. And I agree that it's a very good and even holy thing to search for and recognize agreement wherever it can be found.

FireDragon76 · Dec 12, 2017

fhansen said:
Yes, it just means that right is right and wrong is wrong and it's perfectly ok to recognize righteous or wrong behavior in people, which may well indicate the state of their hearts, the degree of their justice. And the goal in Catholicism is perfection, only because we believe this is God's goal for us, even if it may not be fully realized in this life. But in the end perfection is simply to be who God created us to be -and we weren't created to be sinners after all. And I agree that it's a very good and even holy thing to search for and recognize agreement wherever it can be found.

You should really check out the blog, Under the Sun, by David Wagschal, as he critiques this deification mentality heavily. If our goal is perfection, then we have to become God, because only God is perfect. That's a tall order, in fact its a completely impossible standard for a finite creature. So just what are you driving here? Your theology is big and bad because it asks for the impossible? Or mine stinks because it is realistic about human nature?

fhansen · Dec 12, 2017

FireDragon76 said:
You should really check out the blog, Under the Sun, by David Wagschal, as he critiques this deification mentality heavily. If our goal is perfection, then we have to become God, because only God is perfect. That's a tall order, in fact its a completely impossible standard for a finite creature. So just what are you driving here? Your theology is big and bad because it asks for the impossible? Or mine stinks because it is realistic about human nature?

Well, aside from the fact that Scripture itself tells us that we're to be perfect is the simple truth that God made all beings to possess a perfection proper to their natures, not the same as His infinite perfection but, again, simply to be who they are created to be, based on His wisdom. Sin is an anomaly in creation, and something only possible for beings with free wills. Animals act perfectly in that they cannot do otherwise, they cannot sin.

JIMINZ · Dec 12, 2017

Tree of Life said:
But even as we are being made righteous existentially, we are accepted as righteous legally. As Hebrews 10:14 says - "14 For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified."

.
You posted the verse,
Hebrews 10:14)
For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

By Paul saying. "For by one offering (HE HATH) perfected" and "them that are sanctified." they are both past tense.

Then you misquoted the verse.

You said.
14) For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified.

By Paul saying, "For by a single offering (HE HAS) perfected" remains a Past Tense
While "those who are being sanctified." is an ongoing Future event.

Can't be both.

Tree of Life · Dec 12, 2017

JIMINZ said:
.
You posted the verse,
Hebrews 10:14)
For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

By Paul saying. "For by one offering (HE HATH) perfected" and "them that are sanctified." they are both past tense.

Then you misquoted the verse.

You said.
14) For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified.

By Paul saying, "For by a single offering (HE HAS) perfected" remains a Past Tense
While "those who are being sanctified." is an ongoing Future event.

Can't be both.

Well.

1) Paul didn't write Hebrews.

2) The Greek is μιᾷ γὰρ προσφορᾷ τετελείωκεν εἰς τὸ διηνεκὲς τοὺς ἁγιαζομένους. Teteleioken is perfect, active, indicative, 3rd person. It should be translated "he has perfected". The perfect tense is rare in the New Testament, but it signifies an action that has definitively occurred in the past and has ongoing implications for the present. Agiazomenous is a present passive participle. It's functioning here as a substantive. So it could be translated as those who are being sanctified (ESV) or those who are sanctified (KJV). But either way, the present tense suggests that it's a present, ongoing activity.

The author of Hebrews is saying that God has definitely made perfect (justification) those who are presently being made holy (sanctification).

JIMINZ · Dec 13, 2017

Tree of Life said:
Well.

1) Paul didn't write Hebrews.

2) The Greek is μιᾷ γὰρ προσφορᾷ τετελείωκεν εἰς τὸ διηνεκὲς τοὺς ἁγιαζομένους. Teteleioken is perfect, active, indicative, 3rd person. It should be translated "he has perfected". The perfect tense is rare in the New Testament, but it signifies an action that has definitively occurred in the past and has ongoing implications for the present. Agiazomenous is a present passive participle. It's functioning here as a substantive. So it could be translated as those who are being sanctified (ESV) or those who are sanctified (KJV). But either way, the present tense suggests that it's a present, ongoing activity.

The author of Hebrews is saying that God has definitely made perfect (justification) those who are presently being made holy (sanctification).

.
Sorry but you wrong.

Tree of Life · Dec 13, 2017

JIMINZ said:
.
Sorry but you wrong.

About what, specifically? And could you demonstrate how I'm wrong?

JIMINZ · Dec 13, 2017

Tree of Life said:
About what, specifically? And could you demonstrate how I'm wrong?

.
Just about everything, and yes I can.

Tree of Life · Dec 13, 2017

JIMINZ said:
.
Just about everything, and yes I can.

Ok. Please do.

JIMINZ · Dec 13, 2017

Tree of Life said:
Ok. Please do.

.
Nah, you already have a belief system which suits your needs, I wouldn't want to confuse you.

The explanation isn't a short thing, which can be accomplished here in posts.

It's more than just Sanctification.

Justification - Infusion or Imputation?

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