Are there different definitions of the "once saved, always saved" doctrine?

1stcenturylady said:

It is not venial or mortal, but unintentional or willful. If you willfully sin, knowing full well that it is not God's will, you are in rebellion against God. A saved person does not commit willful sins. Period. 1 John 3

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JacksBratt said:

Speculation. It does not say that.

However, if you are a true believer in Christ... you still have free will. You can up and turn from Him and blaspheme the Holy Spirit.... run from your salvation...

But, who in their right mind would do such a thing... people who were never saved and people .. well I bet nobody else would.

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Hebrews 6:4-6
"4 For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame."

Paul said there were people who were saved that ended up falling away.

Galatians 5:4 "You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace."

If you are severed, that means that you were once joined to Christ.

God allows us to give up the gift of salvation. God does not force us to be saved. Or else we wouldn't have free will and that would contradict His whole plan.

1stcenturylady said:

It is not venial or mortal, but unintentional or willful. If you willfully sin, knowing full well that it is not God's will, you are in rebellion against God. A saved person does not commit willful sins. Period. 1 John 3

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Quite an assumption considering Paul, Peter, and Barnabas are all recorded as sinning in the NT.

And yes, you've just described salvation by works, a false gospel.

SeventyOne said:

Quite an assumption considering Paul, Peter, and Barnabas are all recorded as sinning in the NT.

And yes, you've just described salvation by works, a false gospel.

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You assume "works" are not sinning. Don't you know that it is the Spirit that doesn't sin? He has made us dead to sin. We are no longer in the flesh if we have the Spirit of Christ in us. Because of Him in us, a true Christian doesn't commit willful sin. They can't! 1 John 3:9

So what are the "works" being spoken of by Paul? They are the works of the Mosaic law - circumcision, holy days, abstaining from certain meats, and offering sacrifices. You couldn't be farther from the actual truth if you tried!

1stcenturylady said:

You assume "works" are not sinning. Don't you know that it is the Spirit that doesn't sin? He has made us dead to sin. We are no longer in the flesh if we have the Spirit of Christ in us. Because of Him in us, a true Christian doesn't commit willful sin. They can't! 1 John 3:9

So what are the "works" being spoken of by Paul? They are the works of the Mosaic law - circumcision, holy days, abstaining from certain meats, and offering sacrifices. You couldn't be farther from the actual truth if you tried!

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Wow. Ok. Good bye, o'confused one.

Halbhh said:

I was surprised to see this as to be an example of unconditional election, since it is the conclusion of the parable of the wedding feast, verses 1 through 14, and of course summarizes the meaning of the parable, that only those working to do as Christ said to do are ready when He comes -- those clothed for the wedding. Others who were indeed "invited" but did not then clothe themselves (Matthew 7:21 Context: Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven; but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. -- sometimes people don't notice verse 24 is the direct continuation with "Therefore...") then, without that clothing, get their election reversed, the parable(s) (several actually) tell us.

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There is a distinction between calling and election, I can imagine many Benny Hinn's of the world saying "Lord, Lord" thinking they will enter, thinking "what great things we did in your name", and the gates shut in their face, without any reversal (God making corrections) of election or impeaching. The punchline of a parable is generally found at the end, and in this case it is "many are called, but few are chosen". The gospel is preached to many, many hear the gospel call, but few are chosen by God (which is clear from the five pages of Scripture posted).

SeventyOne said:

Wow. Ok. Good bye, o'confused one.

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Study it for yourself. Don't take my word, or Luther's word either. It may be the most important study of your life.

Especially study Galatians if you think "works" are not sinning. Paul was battling the Judaizers who wanted the Galatians to be circumsized. And especially study chapter 5. If you are not walking in the Spirit, you will be in the flesh, and they do not inherit the kingdom! Please don't be lead around by the nose of false doctrine. We serve a Holy God and He has made it possible for us to be holy, for without holiness no man will see God. Hebrews 12.

The gospel is not something for itching ears who prefer the darkness.

Oldmantook said:

If we don't obey we still have celebration? How do you reconcile Rom 8:13 with your view?

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Hi Sir, thanks for your post. That verse is indeed good reference about death. But first and foremost, let us put it in context. The bible has categorized death, meaning separation, if I can remember, I think there are 9 categories. But I will share only 3: Spiritual death - the Spiritual union of God and Man was separated and it all started with Adam. Physical Death - the separation of body and soul. Now, in the context of ROM 8:13, that is Operational Death - separation in fellowship. Any child of God is His child forever. Positionally, all of God's favor was already poured that even not sparing His one and only Son. In Christ, positionally, we have all everything. There is Grace enjoyed now, there is Grace to be enjoyed forever. Yet, in this fallen world, God desires our attentiveness, our sensitivity to His calling. Our position as being justified does not speak experientially always. There is separation. Our purpose is to live the full abundance of life (Zoe, the quality of it), and that is God's desire. The question is, are we experiencing it? As I grow in my Christian life, many at times I did not listen. Did I experience Him? No, not at all. There is that groaning voice inside of me and it is so sickening. I know then that when this happens my fellowship with Him separated. I am just thankful that God wrote through John, I John 1:8-9. It is my only tool to be back to Him. Yes, I stumble sometimes. So, Get up, dust off, walk again, or even run in the faith. May I always be found making my Greatest Lover pleased.

LDane said:

Hi Sir, thanks for your post. That verse is indeed good reference about death. But first and foremost, let us put it in context. The bible has categorized death, meaning separation, if I can remember, I think there are 9 categories. But I will share only 3: Spiritual death - the Spiritual union of God and Man was separated and it all started with Adam. Physical Death - the separation of body and soul. Now, in the context of ROM 8:13, that is Operational Death - separation in fellowship. Any child of God is His child forever. Positionally, all of God's favor was already poured that even not sparing His one and only Son. In Christ, positionally, we have all everything. There is Grace enjoyed now, there is Grace to be enjoyed forever. Yet, in this fallen world, God desires our attentiveness, our sensitivity to His calling. Our position as being justified does not speak experientially always. There is separation. Our purpose is to live the full abundance of life (Zoe, the quality of it), and that is God's desire. The question is, are we experiencing it? As I grow in my Christian life, many at times I did not listen. Did I experience Him? No, not at all. There is that groaning voice inside of me and it is so sickening. I know then that when this happens my fellowship with Him separated. I am just thankful that God wrote through John, I John 1:8-9. It is my only tool to be back to Him. Yes, I stumble sometimes. So, Get up, dust off, walk again, or even run in the faith. May I always be found making my Greatest Lover pleased.

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Thanks for your reply but you would have have to provide scriptural evidence for your definition of death in the Bible to mean separation in fellowship. Death is either physical or spiritual with spiritual death resulting in separation from God and eternal condemnation.

CGL1023 said:

Billions of pages have been used to argue both sides of the issue, OSAS. I can't help thinking that when the Bible exclusivly provides the arguments for both sides, the issue cannot be resolved.

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If Scripture was all that definitive about the matter, it would seem that you would not have the deep divide that exists.

Basil the Great said:

If Scripture was all that definitive about the matter, it would seem that you would not have the deep divide that exists.

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The problem is there are many who believe they are saved when they are not, and never will be as long as they do nothing about their sin, like repent and turn away from their sin so Jesus can give them the Holy Spirit, Acts 2:38. It is further exacerbated by the false doctrine that not sinning is works, when in reality Paul was speaking about the outward works of circumcision, keeping kosher, keeping holy days and offering sacrifices. They don't realize that Jesus came to save us from sin, and in Him that pattern of sin and death is broken because of His Spirit in them. Romans 8:2. His gift of His own Spirit does not sin, and He has indwelt us with the same power to be dead to sin. Romans 6:2

But as John says, 4 In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it. And 1 John 1:6 "6 If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth."

Walking in darkness is committing sin and being assured our present and future willful sins are automatically forgiven, and our sin can not separate us from God. The problem is, they never stopped sinning long enough to become saved, because they love the sin more than obedience to Christ. It is not something one can do on our own with our carnal nature. We must REPENT and turn away from the sin, and Jesus steps in with the power of God to honor that "work" and to make us dead to sin. We literally become new creations, no longer strangled with the desire to sin as before. Romans 6. And Romans 8:2 and 8:8-9

The infilling of the Holy Spirit is the reason John says in 1 John 3:9 that "Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.

To the still carnal mind, these verses are fanciful and foolishness. Why, brainwashing from years and years of carnal false doctrine started by Martin Luther with the false message that sin cannot separate us from God. No where in scripture is that statement made. It was all in his mind and a misrepresentation of justification of faith alone, when even the demons believe but are damned. One poster whom I presented this Word of God said, "Wow. Ok. Good bye, o'confused one." When the light of the Word is shown, those loving the darkness just don't want to hear it.

You can't pay for your soul with earthly things and you can't "keep" being saved by doing earthly things ( good deeds ) too . So yes this doctrine is true .

But you can lose your inheritance which is forever . People work for 20-30 years to save for retirement so they can maybe life 10 years off that in peace , but they don't consider saving up not for 1000 years but for forever eternal life . It's not like you gonna have job after Christ returns , you enter in eternal rest with whatever you manage to get.

Don't be disappointed when you get to heaven , was that party every friday worth it ?

Psalm 49:7-8

7 None of them can by any means redeem his brother, nor give to God a ransom for him:

8 (For the redemption of their soul is precious, and it ceaseth for ever


Psalm 49:15
15 But God will redeem my soul from the power of the grave: for he shall receive me. Selah.

Monk Brendan said:

No. We have to live our lives in humble repentance, searching for sins in our walk, and living like we NEED God's gift of Salvation every minute, always conscience of our own weakness. If we can do that, then we can truly look at Jesus face-to-face with Joy, as He says "Well done, thou good and faithful servant."

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Well, IMO, both the one who lives as close to Christ as anyone can... and the one who struggles with what others would look at as shameful and willful sins.....on a continual basis.... both of these have been covered by the saving blood of the lamb, both are just as saved as the other and both will, when they see Christ face to face.... fall face down in shame in the presence of the supreme righteousness of their Lord and savior.

So, if you can lose your salvation, who decides what sin, how many sins, what severity of sin, what categorical metric would you use to know when you have lost it?

It's all bogus.....It's all Satan's lie.

Once you are saved, truly saved by your humble repentant heart, by the blood of our savior..... you are then and forever saved...

Otherwise.....you would be continually reviewing your actions, throughout your life and days and forever wondering if you have lost it for the things that we, as humans, do...

That is not the blessed hope that we are promised.

Halbhh said:

Yes. Consider that after receiving the Spirit, Peter did this very major, huge wrong, and then "stood condemned". It's so dramatic.

Consider -- through Peter, with Peter's real and strong faith, a girl was raised from the dead!

That Peter, the very same Peter, then did this huge wrong, and it must have troubled his conscience.

And Paul had to confront him.

It's a humbling lesson to all of us, that if even Peter could stumble so badly, then we can too.

This is why confessing and repenting is so crucial, for us already converted, already believing in real faith even.

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Disagree.

You have a confusion.

How to DO works is one thing.
A Saved soul is another thing.

A Saved soul will Never Reject God.
Nor did Peter ever again speak against the Lord after he received the Spirit of the Lord.

A Faithful man Being reprimanded for How he does his works is common place and well taught in scriptures.

People do the same today of one Saved man to another Saved man saying your behavior is not Christian like, which is saying, what works you are doing are not glorifying to the Lord!

It has nothing to do with the mans already received Salvation and everything to do with a mans works that are not glorifying to God.

God Bless,
SBC

1stcenturylady said:

The problem is there are many who believe they are saved when they are not, and never will be as long as they do nothing about their sin, like repent and turn away from their sin so Jesus can give them the Holy Spirit, Acts 2:38. It is further exacerbated by the false doctrine that not sinning is works, when in reality Paul was speaking about the outward works of circumcision, keeping kosher, keeping holy days and offering sacrifices. They don't realize that Jesus came to save us from sin, and in Him that pattern of sin and death is broken because of His Spirit in them. Romans 8:2. His gift of His own Spirit does not sin, and He has indwelt us with the same power to be dead to sin. Romans 6:2

But as John says, 4 In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it. And 1 John 1:6 "6 If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth."

Walking in darkness is committing sin and being assured our present and future willful sins are automatically forgiven, and our sin can not separate us from God. The problem is, they never stopped sinning long enough to become saved, because they love the sin more than obedience to Christ. It is not something one can do on our own with our carnal nature. We must REPENT and turn away from the sin, and Jesus steps in with the power of God to honor that "work" and to make us dead to sin. We literally become new creations, no longer strangled with the desire to sin as before. Romans 6. And Romans 8:2 and 8:8-9

The infilling of the Holy Spirit is the reason John says in 1 John 3:9 that "Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.

To the still carnal mind, these verses are fanciful and foolishness. Why, brainwashing from years and years of carnal false doctrine started by Martin Luther with the false message that sin cannot separate us from God. No where in scripture is that statement made. It was all in his mind and a misrepresentation of justification of faith alone, when even the demons believe but are damned. One poster whom I presented this Word of God said, "Wow. Ok. Good bye, o'confused one." When the light of the Word is shown, those loving the darkness just don't want to hear it.

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No one said not sinning is works

SeventyOne said:

Ohh, a logic puzzle. I'm gonna go with less than 50.

But I still don't know what this has to do with the topic.

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Notice your post I replied to:

SeventyOne said:

Makes no difference who claims it. Why would that change anything?

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Then also as written in Scripture, not everyone who claims to be saved is. Multitudes don't find out UNTIL Judgment Day.

Brokenhill said:

Hebrews 6:4-6
"4 For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame."

Paul said there were people who were saved that ended up falling away.

Galatians 5:4 "You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace."

If you are severed, that means that you were once joined to Christ.

God allows us to give up the gift of salvation. God does not force us to be saved. Or else we wouldn't have free will and that would contradict His whole plan.

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Disagree.

God IS Light.
Everyone hearing God Word IS being enlightened.

Every Word of God Judas heard, he was being enlightened.

Every Word of God an Atheist hears, he is being enlightened.

Every Word of God the Roman soldiers heard, they were being enlightened and even repeated the True Word of God calling Jesus The King of the Jews!

Being enlightened is one thing. Which is precisely what is happening to a person who is hearing the Word of God.

Believing, Doubing, Challenging, wondering...
Is precisely what happens to pretty much every man who first hears the Word of God,
And you can review the Scriptures, that those things happened Even to Jesus' chosen Disciples.

Every individual man has his own individual freewill to choose to be enlightened by hearing God Word, continuing to hear Gods Word, believe it, mock it, wonder about it, hear for awhile, stop hearing, then return to hearing, or flat out reject it.....

Every time a man IS hearing that man is being Enlightened.

Every time a man is being Enlightened The Lord Himself is giving the man a measure of Faith. Not a Full Measure.

Any man who chooses to STOP or REJECT hearing, Believing what he hears THAT man has LOST his FAITH, and is receiving no more FAITH from the Lord.

NOW for a man who has become enlightened hearing the Word of God AND then in the Lords Name AND the mans own declaration of TRUE belief in his heart that that man BELIEVES IN the Word of God That The Word of God is True...

And That the mans confession IS True WHICH the Lord Who knows all things Will know If the confession IS True.

THEN being a TRUE confession the Lord SHALL save the mans soul, unto forever life.

That man SHALL also Have his body forgiven and justified to become dead and alive in Chris's body forever, and to have his spirit quickened to forever life with the Lord And
To receive Full faithfulness from the Lord forever, that such man can never stand Against the Lord in Disbelief which standing Against the Lord in Disbelief IS SIN Against God.

Any man Who has become in Standing With the Lord, (forgiven, soul Saved, Spirit quickened, body justified, received full faithFullness) IS NEVER reversed Nor otherwise can be undone.

Such a man By the POWER of God is Free and Kept from Sin.

Never would you ever hear such a man, Freed From Sin, Ever Speak Against the Lord of Disbelief In The Lord.

A man beginning to be enlightened Is simply the beginning of Faith - not the Fullness of Faith.

Point being -
Any man can loose Faith
- until such time the man has received Fullness of Faith, which is a gift from God WHEN the Lord has Converted the Whole of the man....
Body soul spirit OF the man, which can never be undone.

God Bless,
SBC

Kenny'sID said:

This is simple...would you throw your kid out of the house for a few muck ups if he were sincerely trying?

It's actually so simple, I'm just going to leave it at that. Try thinking in terms of earthly farther and son or daughter and how good people act normally, know God is just more strict, and I'm sure you will see.

It's only complicated if we make it that, and your thinking for no good reason at all we have to get saved each time we sin is, by design, just a way of wording it to make our end seem ridiculous, and I wonder why you feel you need to do that.

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I guess, maybe, I should ask... If a person is saved, what action would they have to do to lose their salvation?

JacksBratt said:

I guess, maybe, I should ask... If a person is saved, what action would they have to do to lose their salvation?

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Please take your pick.

Calling your brother a fool - Matthew 5:22.
Looking upon a woman in lust - Matthew 5:28-30.
Not forgiving others - Matthew 6:15.
Loving family members more than Jesus - Matthew 10:37.
Speaking bad words that can condemn you - Matthew 12:37, Matthew 15:11, James 3:6.
Blasphemy (i.e. speaking bad words against) the Holy Ghost - Matthew 12:31.
Not helping the poor in this life - Matthew 25:31-46.
Being ashamed of Jesus - Luke 9:26.
Going back to the ways of the world instead of preaching the gospel and His Word, etc. - Luke 9:62.
Hating your brother - 1 John 3:15.
Suicide - 1 Corinthians 3:17, 1 John 3:15.
Idolatry, witchcraft, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, etc. - Galatians 5:20-21.
Not consenting to the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness - 1 Timothy 6:3-4.
Loving money - 1 Timothy 6:10.
No holy living - Hebrews 12:14.
No works - Titus 1:16, James 2:17.
Lying - Revelation 21:8.

The following above sins can separate a believer from the Lord Jesus Christ, unless they repent of them (i.e. confess and forsake them). For nowhere does Jesus and His followers teach that a believer can abide in these sins and still be saved while doing so. Repentance always goes hand in hand with God's grace.

Kenny'sID said:

What exactly did I speculate?

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You posted a scripture:

35 Jesus said unto them. I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall not hunger, and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.

Then you stated "As sure as we cometh we can leaveth. "

But, the scripture doesn't say this. So......you speculated that "as sure as we cometh we can leaveth"

It is not scriptural.

Kenny'sID said:

Who in their right mind would never bother to get saved at all? People denounce the faith all the time..why? because they'd rather live a life of sin...simple. I've been there an back a few times myself. It's absolutely no mystery at all that people go back into sin...happens all the time. The parable of the sewer shows that clearly.

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Yes, I can see if people denounce their faith or purposly turn from Christ and blaspheme the Holy Spirit.

That is a special case. As you said "who in their right mind would never bother to get saved at all?"

If what you state is true.. out of those that get saved, how many are going to turn from it?

We're talking tiny percentages.

As a whole. People who are saved cannot lose it. You may, and I'm no expert, chuck it away, but that is not losing it.

The whole argument that I'm hearing here is that salvation can be lost by actions of those not following a Christian walk.

That is total mallarky....you lose things by accident. Nobody lost something on purpose.

I should hope that people who are new Christians should not understand the false teaching of "you must be careful or you will lose your salvation.

If anyone has been saved and no longer is...... It is due to their determination to turn from God and Christ in this regard.

Jason0047 said:

Please take your pick.

Calling your brother a fool - Matthew 5:22.
Looking upon a woman in lust - Matthew 5:28-30.
Not forgiving others - Matthew 6:15.
Loving family members more than Jesus - Matthew 10:37.
Speaking bad words that can condemn you - Matthew 12:37, Matthew 15:11, James 3:6.
Blasphemy (i.e. speaking bad words against) the Holy Ghost - Matthew 12:31.
Not helping the poor in this life - Matthew 25:31-46.
Being ashamed of Jesus - Luke 9:26.
Going back to the ways of the world instead of preaching the gospel and His Word, etc. - Luke 9:62.
Hating your brother - 1 John 3:15.
Suicide - 1 Corinthians 3:17, 1 John 3:15.
Idolatry, witchcraft, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, etc. - Galatians 5:20-21.
Not consenting to the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness - 1 Timothy 6:3-4.
Loving money - 1 Timothy 6:10.
No holy living - Hebrews 12:14.
No works - Titus 1:16, James 2:17.
Lying - Revelation 21:8.

The following above sins can separate a believer from the Lord Jesus Christ, unless they repent of them (i.e. confess and forsake them). For nowhere does Jesus and His followers teach that you can abide in these sins and still be saved while doing so.

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Yes, it will separate you from a connection with Christ.... You don't lose your salvation...

If your list was the case...... we would all be re-repenting, being re-saved and re-gaining salvation all the time..... based on many of the items in your list.