The two witnesses

The Times

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Zechariah 4:11-14

I see the two witnesses as being the conduits of the golden oil in plagues, the vials hold the oil/odours that are the prayers of the saints, as the oil is poured from "Themselves" upon the beast/kingdom Revelation 5:8

The golden oil is tied to the ministry of the seven spirits. If you refer to Zechariah 4, the olive trees are the source of oil for the bowl reservior and from the reservior, seven dispensations or paths are taken simultaneously to light up the seven lamps of the seven candlestick Menorah.

The plagues you mention happen after the ministry of the two pillars of the spiritual apparatus of God, his Menorah. Those bowls are the bowls of incense and have nothing to do with the seven candlestick Menorah of God.

Those plagues are reserved for the wicked, after the Church is martyred by the beast that rises from the bottomless Pitt.
 
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Truth7t7

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Sorry friend, please accept my apolisy, for I will try again to answer your pertinent questions below.



Good to know, excellent!



Absolutely, I concur!



Couldn't agree with you more.



No, Isaiah 65 marks the 1st advent of Jesus where Jesus arose, ascended up to the Father and was anointed as our Crowned Monarch, by the Ancient of Days (The Father), and was given an Eternal Heavenly Kingdom. Jesus would advise his disciples that he would make accomodation for them, who leave this temporal life to be forever with him in his Father's house. Paul would say, to be absent from the body, is to be present with the Lord (2 Corinthians 5:8)

Revelation 21 is his return to consecrate his bride and to usher in the Eternal millenium reign in his Father's house. There is no purpose for the Old heaven and the old earth to continue.



I believe that Ezekiel is doing his best to describe a realm which has a different purpose and function. I see that he uses worldly objects living and non-living and names of places to portray a wonderful place of plenty. I believe he is trying to convey Heavenly Jerusalem being partitioned into the Northern and Southern portions, that is the Old Testament Saints as say the North and the New Testament as the South.

I believe that the river is what partitions North from South and that the Lord's presence will be along that line of partition of the mountain /congregations valley mentioned in Zechariah 4:5.

The River I believe is Christ's presence in the midst of the northern and southern mountains/congregations, both former sea (Old Testament) and the latter sea (New Testament).

Notice mount of Olives is a term used for Christ's presence and is located along the east to west corridor of the Heavenly New Jerusalem, that is the line of demarcation, that segregates the northern congregation (Old Testament saints) from the southern congregation (New Testament saints).


1Afterward he brought me again unto the door of the house; and, behold, waters issued out from under the threshold of the house eastward: for the forefront of the house stood toward the east, and the waters came down from under from the right side of the house, at the south side of the altar. 2Then brought he me out of the way of the gate northward, and led me about the way without unto the utter gate by the way that looketh eastward; and, behold, there ran out waters on the right side. 3And when the man that had the line in his hand went forth eastward, he measured a thousand cubits, and he brought me through the waters; the waters were to the ancles.
8Then said he unto me, These waters issue out toward the east country, and go down into the desert, and go into the sea: which being brought forth into the sea, the waters shall be healed.
18And the east side ye shall measure from Hauran, and from Damascus, and from Gilead, and from the land of Israel by Jordan, from the border unto the east sea. And this is the east side.
20The west side also shall be the great sea from the border, till a man come over against Hamath. This is the west side.

The Great sea that number as the sand of the sea, are the New Testament saints.

So it seems Ezekiel is using literal terminology to convey purpose and function, yet the literal is merely a prop that he is using to emphasise his conveying of the purpose and function.



It will not be like this realm. Even John in 1 John 3:2 says....

what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when Christ appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is.



I don't know.



Not like the constructs of the old one, which accommodated the dirt man. As Paul would say.....

47The first man was of the dust of the earth; the second man is of heaven. 48As was the earthly man, so are those who are of the earth; and as is the heavenly man, so also are those who are of heaven. 49And just as we have borne the image of the earthly man, so shall we bear the image of the heavenly man. (1 Corinthians 15:47-49)



No need, for the animals/beasts were made for Adam to keep him company, where he was given dominion over them. The focus in the Heavenly Realm is the Lord's presence, the very river of life that both the northern and southern congregations will flock to. Animals no longer serve a purpose and function and will detract from the central focus figure.



Eating according to the new bodies is not required. The food there will be pure light eminating from the Lord.



Sure, I view it in vast contrast to what we know today, in our earthly bodies. John in 1 John 3:2 states that he didn't know how it will be like, but when we are raised, we will only know then what it will be like, when we see Jesus as he is in his glorified body.
Well we disagree on the eternal state.

I believe Isaiah 65:17-19 & Revelation 21:1-5 are the same place, The eternal New Heaven, Earth, Jerusalem,

I believe Ezekiel 47:12 & Revelation 22:1-5 is also the same eternal kingdom, and both are the same river and tree of life.

I believe there will be animals in this kingdom as Isaiah 11 and Isaiah 65 state.

We will disagree :)
 
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The Times

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Like a literal remake of Moses/Aaron against Pharaoh.

If we picture the seven lamp Menorah of God having been lit from the 1st Century Jewish Apostolic Church onwards, then we see continuity of the seven ministering spirits without cessation.

However if we are waiting for two literal characters to reignite the Menorah, then we are unwittingly saying that the Menorah of God has not yet been lit up, which is detrimental to the continuity of the Great Commission, without fail.

The seven lamps must therefore have been lit 2000 years ago and they have stayed lit. This means that the two olive trees must be supplying the bowl with oil and in turn, the lamps being supplied with fuel, called the fire of Grace, owing to the seven ministering spirits or pipe line dispensations.

For the testimony of Jesus is the Spirit of Prophecy. Jesus is also the fulfilment of the Law and so, the cornerstone must have both pillars, in order for the seven lamps to be lit always and without fail.

The two pillars are the two anointed olive trees, that supply the oil of salvation to the seven lamps.

I would agree the witnesses are part of the church in the wilderness, however they will have physical bodies that will die literally.

If you consider that it has always been the Church, then the members of the one body will be martyred by the beast when he re-emerges.

I don't see a symbolic representation in Revelation 11:1-15 for bodies, street, Jerusalem where Jesus was crucified, people sending gifts, bodies raised in the sight of the world.

It is not symbolic, the members of the body of Christ, his bride, will be bled out globally, in a world wide Calvary. The beast will have his way for a short time, yet a remnant elect will be spared from the body and rescued away from the beast to somewhere safe on planet earth, to be prepared after the Judgement vials, whilst they hid in their protective chambers and come out to face the beast and his army, who encircle the camp of the saints. If God didn't shorten those days for the sake of these elect, they would not survive the ordeal.
 
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Truth7t7

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If we picture the seven lamp Menorah of God having been lit from the 1st Century Jewish Apostolic Church onwards, then we see continuity of the seven ministering spirits without cessation.

However if we are waiting for two literal characters to reignite the Menorah, then we are unwittingly saying that the Menorah of God has not yet been lit up, which is detrimental to the continuity of the Great Commission, without fail.

The seven lamps must therefore have been lit 2000 years ago and they have stayed lit. This means that the two olive trees must be supplying the bowl with oil and in turn, the lamps being supplied with fuel, called the fire of Grace, owing to the seven ministering spirits or pipe line dispensations.

For the testimony of Jesus is the Spirit of Prophecy. Jesus is also the fulfilment of the Law and so, the cornerstone must have both pillars, in order for the seven lamps to be lit always and without fail.

The two pillars are the two anointed olive trees, that supply the oil of salvation to the seven lamps.



If you consider that it has always been the Church, then the members of the one body will be martyred by the beast when he re-emerges.



It is not symbolic, the members of the body of Christ, his bride, will be bled out globally, in a world wide Calvary. The beast will have his way for a short time, yet a remnant elect will be spared from the body and rescued away from the beast to somewhere safe on planet earth, to be prepared after the Judgement vials, whilst they hid in their protective chambers and come out to face the beast and his army, who encircle the camp of the saints. If God didn't shorten those days for the sake of these elect, they would not survive the ordeal.
I dont agree with your symbolic representation of menorah/church etc.

I see the two witnesses as prophets returned in physical bodies that will die.

I believe they will control the tribulation time of 42 months through plagues, a remake of Moses/Aaron against Pharaoh.

I don't see the Church running in fear of the Antichrist, I see it otherwise.

The sealed believer will be protected from the plagues Revelation 9:1-4, those that try to harm the believer will in return be harmed, patience of the saints Revelation 13:10

All believers are sealed Ephesians 4:30

The plagues at the command of the two witnesses, will be the "Vials/Pipes" poured out of "Themselves" that represents the oil/odours prayers of the saints for avenge of their blood Revelation 5:8

"Two Witnesses" Literal Prophets Returned, In Physical Bodies.

We will disagree :)
 
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BABerean2

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and to usher in the Eternal millenium reign

An "eternal" "millenium" is an oxymoron.

One lasts forever, and the other lasts for some period of time, although it does not necessarily have to be exactly 1,000 years.

.
 
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The Times

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Well we disagree on the eternal state.

That is alright friend, differences in point of view on this issue, does not take away from us the promise of life.

I believe Isaiah 65:17-19 & Revelation 21:1-5 are the same place, The eternal New Heaven, Earth, Jerusalem,

Can you highlight to me, where it alludes that it is the return of Jesus and not his 1st advent?

I believe Ezekiel 47:12 & Revelation 22:1-5 is also the same eternal kingdom, and both are the same river and tree of life

I did not disagree with you on this point. However I did clarify that Ezekiel uses literal concepts to depict function and purpose, yet he isn't focussing on the literal itself, rather I believe he is using it as a comparative and visual prop.

I believe there will be animals in this kingdom as Isaiah 11 and Isaiah 65 state.

It does state that no one can enter the Kingdom of Heaven, unless they be born again of the Spirit of God. So the subject must become the temple of God, where the Holy Spirit dwells in our hearts. I strongly believe that animals can not be subjects in this respect as there is nothing eternal promised to them in scripture, through the redemptive works of Christ. Aft all, after the fall, this animals also started to ache each other and fell with Adam and much death followed.

We will disagree :)

That is what makes us free will agents. I really enjoyed my dialogue with you and your insightful questions. Thankyou.
 
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BABerean2

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I dont agree with your symbolic representation of menorah/church etc.

I see the two witnesses as prophets returned in physical bodies that will die.

I believe they will control the tribulation time of 42 months through plagues, a remake of Moses/Aaron against Pharaoh.

The plagues at the command of the two witnesses, will be the "Vials/Pipes" poured out of "Themselves" that represents the oil/odours prayers of the saints for avenge of their blood Revelation 5:8

"Two Witnesses" Literal Prophets Returned, In Physical Bodies.

How long do you think it will be between the time the two witnesses go up into a cloud and the blowing of the 7th trumpet?

.
 
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The Times

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An "eternal" "millenium" is an oxymoron.

One lasts forever, and the other lasts for some period of time, although it does not necessarily have to be exactly 1,000 years.

.

I believe that John used a term, like we use the word infinity, to emphasise an infinitely large number. Thousand was probably the maximum they considered in mathematical term.

I do however agree with you that if we say eternal millenium, it is an oxymoron. Yet if John implied eternally infinite, then I would harmonise it with his other declarations of a state to be forever with the Lord. I see this aspect of exegesis more a primary discourse issue, than an interpretative one. In other words, I am struggling to convey John's thoughts using terms he uses, yet those terms mean different to how we apply or understand them.

John never implies that the millenium reign of the righteous ends, rather for Satan and the wicked, he applies a closure, that is.....

He threw him into the Abyss, and locked and sealed it over him, to keep him from deceiving the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended. After that, he must be set free for a short time.

Then.........................sequentially what happens.......


4I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5(The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection.

Notice the definite article the thousand years is ascribed to Satan and it highlights that it does in fact end. After it ends we see the final judgment of the dead coinciding with the resurrection of the dead, and those who were saved, reigned with Christ A thousand years. A thousand years is an indefinite article and the author does not disclose the ending of it, yet he sequentially places it immediately after the end of the millenium given to Satan and the wicked and the final judgment of the dead, when the books are opened.
 
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Truth7t7

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How long do you think it will be between the time the two witnesses go up into a cloud and the blowing of the 7th trumpet?

.
Revelation 11:14

The second woe is past, and the third woe comes "Quickly"

"Like A Thief" :)

The believer will not be taken as a thief, look up your redemption draweth nigh :)
 
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DavidPT

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An "eternal" "millenium" is an oxymoron.

One lasts forever, and the other lasts for some period of time, although it does not necessarily have to be exactly 1,000 years.

.


While it's true that the millennium and the eternal can't be the same, what can be true though, the millennium occurs during the eternal.
 
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Truth7t7

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I believe that John used a term, like we use the word infinity, to emphasise an infinitely large number. Thousand was probably the maximum they considered in mathematical term.

I do however agree with you that if we say eternal millenium, it is an oxymoron. Yet if John implied eternally infinite, then I would harmonise it with his other declarations of a state to be forever with the Lord. I see this aspect of exegesis more a primary discourse issue, than an interpretative one. In other words, I am struggling to convey John's thoughts using terms he uses, yet those terms mean different to how we apply or understand them.

John never implies that the millenium reign of the righteous ends, rather for Satan and the wicked, he applies a closure, that is.....

He threw him into the Abyss, and locked and sealed it over him, to keep him from deceiving the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended. After that, he must be set free for a short time.

Then.........................sequentially what happens.......


4I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5(The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection.

Notice the definite article the thousand years is ascribed to Satan and it highlights that it does in fact end. After it ends we see the final judgment of the dead coinciding with the resurrection of the dead, and those who were saved, reigned with Christ A thousand years. A thousand years is an indefinite article and the author does not disclose the ending of it, yet he sequentially places it immediately after the end of the millenium given to Satan and the wicked and the final judgment of the dead, when the books are opened.
I agree John saw 1000 as infinity/eternal, in the Lords spiritual realm of no time.

We are plagued with the 1000 year earthly kingdom, thats taught in error.

As many don't understand 1000 as we do and 2 Peter 3:8 describes.
 
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Truth7t7

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While it's true that the millennium and the eternal can't be the same, what can be true though, the millennium occurs during the eternal.
There will be no earthly kingdom for 1000 literal years with mortal humans present.

As The Times stated, 1000 represents the eternal/spiritual of no time.

It appears you want to create a time frame inthe eternal kingdom, that isnt there?

"Eternal Kingdom" no person is confused with the teaching in error of a earthly kingdom for a "Literal" 1000 years.
 
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ewq1938

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Are they two separate and two independent olive trees?

Or course. They work together because they have a job to do. Two there means only two as far as the number of the. Nothing else added to that is supported by the Greek word duo.


If they are both standing before the Lord, then they have to be interdependent on one another and at the same time be the source of oil for the bowl reservior of God, which in turn delivers the oil to the seven candlestick Menorah, in order to output Light through the seven lamps into the world, through the ministry of the seven spirits/dispensations of God, that is his seven candlestick Menorah, his one established Church, from the 1st Century continuous to the end of ministry of the anointed pillars, hence end of Grace.

They work together but are dependent upon God, not interdependent on each other as if they can't function unless together. Nothing in scripture or definition support such an intimate relationship.
 
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ewq1938

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How long do you think it will be between the time the two witnesses go up into a cloud and the blowing of the 7th trumpet?

.

All we know is that it's the same day.
 
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I agree John saw 1000 as infinity/eternal, in the Lords spiritual realm of no time.

We are plagued with the 1000 year earthly kingdom, thats taught in error.

As many don't understand 1000 as we do and 2 Peter 3:8 describes.
The eternal already exists and has existed long before the natural , what happens is that during the the millennium The saints- born again Christians that have been made immortal by Jesus after receiving their glorified bodies are now part of the eternal reigning over the natural . The eternal angels can co-exist with the mortal man in our time right now. Mostly we do not see them but they do interact with the mortal lives of humans on a regular basis. We even have guardian angels who look out for us and intervene for us when the need arises , God even tells us that we at times have angels who have taken on a human appearance during times that we are unaware of it happening.
In the OT it states that one angel slew 185,000 Human enemy soldiers
It is common for the eternal to physically interact with mortal men
It will continue when we are immortal in the eternal realm overseeing and reigning with Jesus during the millennium that satan is locked away in the abysss
 
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Truth7t7

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The eternal already exists and has existed long before the natural , what happen at during the the millennium The saints- born again Christians that have been made immortal by Jesus after receiving their glorified bodies are now part of the eternal reigning over the natural . The eternal angels can co-exist with the mortal man in our time right now. Mostly we do not see them but they do interact with the mortal lives of humans on a regular basis. We even have guardian angels who look out for us and intervene for us when the need arises , God even tells us that we at times have angels who have taken on a human appearance during times that we are unaware of it happening.
In the OT it states that one angel slew 185,000 Human enemy soldiers
It is common for the eternal to physically interact with mortal men
It will continue when we are immortal in the eternal realm overseeing and reigning with Jesus during the millennium that satan is locked away in the abysss
There will be no earthly millennial kingdom with mortal humans present.

Matthew 25:31-46

Jesus returns with the angels as the final judgment, eternal kingdom takes place.
 
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DavidPT

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I agree John saw 1000 as infinity/eternal, in the Lords spiritual realm of no time.

We are plagued with the 1000 year earthly kingdom, thats taught in error.

As many don't understand 1000 as we do and 2 Peter 3:8 describes.


In light of the following what exactly are you trying to say here?


Revelation 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison

The text says and very plainly at that----when the thousand years are expired. What should that be telling us? Shouldn't it be telling us that the thousand years also has an ending point? How could infinity/eternal possibly consist of a time that expires, then still be said to be infinity/eternal? Even if 1000 could mean infinity/eternal, it for sure couldn't mean that in Revelation 20 though.
 
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ewq1938

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There will be no earthly millennial kingdom with mortal humans present.

Oh? Doesn't Amil believe we are in the Mill now and aren't there mortal humans now?

Surely we are not in the Mill now but just making a point :)
 
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Ok....i understand..all this stuff scares me....
Well, these witnesses are against the ungodly and wicked. But since you're in Christ, you don't have to worry about that. God bless :).
 
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