Determinism, Compatibilism, Libertarian Free Will

Halbhh

Everything You say is Life to me
Site Supporter
Mar 17, 2015
17,184
9,196
catholic -- embracing all Christians
✟1,157,377.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
The line of thinking from the Theopedia article led me into another thought. We maintain as the Scriptures tell us, that it is impossible for God to lie. The reasoning is that God is pure and Holy, that is His nature, and to lie would contradict His own nature. So based on that line of thinking, it makes no sense that a man created in the image of God, could choose contrary to his nature.

ah, but we are young, and able to mature (grow up, grow more wise, etc.). In order to mature, it's likely we must have not only freedom, but also the natural outcomes of our choices, thus suffering. Could even consciousness exist without true unpredictability. After all, is a fixed program truly conscious? We see quite a variety of verses where God instructs us to choose certain actions and not others, and lays out to us what will happen for each.

All of this is suggestive.

But, is there a verse where God clearly says He did not expect some people to make a certain choice? That would remove the option of determinism instantly.
 
Upvote 0

Halbhh

Everything You say is Life to me
Site Supporter
Mar 17, 2015
17,184
9,196
catholic -- embracing all Christians
✟1,157,377.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
ah, but we are young, and able to mature (grow up, grow more wise, etc.). In order to mature, it's likely we must have not only freedom, but also the natural outcomes of our choices, thus suffering. Could even consciousness exist without true unpredictability. After all, is a fixed program truly conscious? We see quite a variety of verses where God instructs us to choose certain actions and not others, and lays out to us what will happen for each.

All of this is suggestive.

But, is there a verse where God clearly says He did not expect some people to make a certain choice? That would remove the option of determinism instantly.

Here:

30“ ‘The people of Judah have done evil in my eyes, declares the Lord. They have set up their detestable idols in the house that bears my Name and have defiled it. 31 They have built the high places of Topheth in the Valley of Ben Hinnom to burn their sons and daughters in the fire—something I did not command, nor did it enter my mind. 32 So beware, the days are coming, declares the Lord, when people will no longer call it Topheth or the Valley of Ben Hinnom, but the Valley of Slaughter, for they will bury the dead in Topheth until there is no more room. 33 Then the carcasses of this people will become food for the birds and the wild animals, and there will be no one to frighten them away. 34 I will bring an end to the sounds of joy and gladness and to the voices of bride and bridegroom in the towns of Judah and the streets of Jerusalem, for the land will become desolate."

Like Genesis 6:6 The LORD regretted that he had made human beings on the earth, and his heart was deeply troubled., verse 31 strongly suggests people doing what God did not expect, implying that He designed us (by His plan) to have true unpredictability. (Of course, no matter what unpredictable thing we do, He can still intervene later, and accomplish what He intends in the end, and accomplish what He intends to happen in an ultimate way.)
 
Upvote 0
Oct 21, 2003
6,793
3,289
Central Time Zone
✟107,193.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
ah, but we are young, and able to mature (grow up, grow more wise, etc.). In order to mature, it's likely we must have not only freedom, but also the natural outcomes of our choices, thus suffering. Could even consciousness exist without true unpredictability. After all, is a fixed program truly conscious? We see quite a variety of verses where God instructs us to choose certain actions and not others, and lays out to us what will happen for each.

All of this is suggestive.

But, is there a verse where God clearly says He did not expect some people to make a certain choice? That would remove the option of determinism instantly.

I know not how we could draw such a conclusion without doing much damage to the historical classical Christian doctrines of the omniscience of God and immutability of God.
 
Upvote 0

Halbhh

Everything You say is Life to me
Site Supporter
Mar 17, 2015
17,184
9,196
catholic -- embracing all Christians
✟1,157,377.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I know not how we could draw such a conclusion without doing much damage to the historical classical Christian doctrines of the omniscience of God and immutability of God.

Often people discussing some idea like 'omniscience' don't to have defined a clear idea of what 'omniscience' is, but only a meaning with several presumed things unstated. To me 'omniscience' means knowing all that has happened (the past), and knowing all that is happening now (the present), but only certain types of things (only and not others) about the future. That is an awesome "all seeing" ability.

We can expect any predictability would depend on the built-in level of predictability God designed into nature and into us. If He made us with some unpredictability in us, then we are only predictable to large extent, but not entirely. Like us predicting weather, for instance. We can with various degrees of success, but not totally....

In this case God could see where an individual is heading if that person continues on their current course, and does not change course.

But He may have made our spirit/souls able to change course, for instance. That would make scripture make sense, because why give instruction to beings unable to choose.
 
Upvote 0
Oct 21, 2003
6,793
3,289
Central Time Zone
✟107,193.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Here: Like Genesis 6:6 The LORD regretted that he had made human beings on the earth, and his heart was deeply troubled., verse 31 strongly suggests people doing what God did not expect, implying that He designed us (by His plan) to have true unpredictability. (Of course, no matter what unpredictable thing we do, He can still intervene later, and accomplish what He intends in the end, and accomplish what He intends to happen in an ultimate way.)

In a word, Prophecy. In a phrase, it is impossible for God to lie. The few passages used to support the openess view should be taken in view of the whole of Scripture. There is no doubt the Lord has emotions, the shortest verse in Scripture, Jesus wept. I do not believe a few select passages can be used to make the case, nor that agree with the human author's thinking in light of the greater context, even within the scope of the human authors writings.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: RC1970
Upvote 0

Halbhh

Everything You say is Life to me
Site Supporter
Mar 17, 2015
17,184
9,196
catholic -- embracing all Christians
✟1,157,377.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
In a word, Prophecy. In a phrase, it is impossible for God to lie. The few passages used to support the openess view should be taken in view of the whole of Scripture. There is no doubt the Lord has emotions, the shortest verse in Scripture, Jesus wept. I do not believe a few select passages can be used to make the case, nor that agree with the human author's thinking in light of the greater context, even within the scope of the human authors writings.

Not sure what you mean about prophecy. Prophecy does imply many things can be either A) foreseen, or B) caused to happen (God hardened the Egyptian's heart to accomplish the outcome He wanted to happen).

But the number of passages, verses, supporting true freedom of choice, non determined, is large, not few.

About Jeremiah 7:31 They have built the high places of Topheth in the Valley of Ben Hinnom to burn their sons and daughters in the fire--something I did not command, nor did it enter my mind.. , the word "nor" clarifies that certainly God did not foresee that action. How else can one read that wording? Regardless, every command implies an ability to choose, and that implies the choice is not predetermined.
 
  • Like
Reactions: YouAreAwesome
Upvote 0
Oct 21, 2003
6,793
3,289
Central Time Zone
✟107,193.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
But the number of passages, verses, supporting true freedom of choice, non determined, is large, not few.

Freedom Restrained

Job 14:4 Who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean? No one!

Psalm 22:29 All the prosperous of the earth Shall eat and worship; All those who go down to the dust Shall bow before Him, Even he who cannot keep himself alive.

Proverbs 20:9 Who can say, “I have made my heart clean, I am pure from my sin”?

Jer 13:23 Can the Ethiopian change his skin or the leopard its spots? Then may you also do good who are accustomed to do evil.

Matt 7:18A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit.

Matt 19:25 When His disciples heard it, they were greatly astonished, saying, “Who then can be saved?” 26 But Jesus looked at them and said to them, “With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”

John 1:12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: 13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

John 6:44No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him;

John 6:65 And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.”

John 8:34 Jesus answered them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, whoever commits sin is a slave of sin.

John 8:44You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do.

Romans 6:20 For when you were slaves of sin

Romans 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be.

1 Cor 2:14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned

2 Tim 2:25 in humility correcting those who are in opposition, if God perhaps will grant them repentance, so that they may know the truth, 26 and that they may come to their senses and escape the snare of the devil, having been taken captive by him to do his will.

Romans 9:19 You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” 20 But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?”

Ephesians 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, 4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5 he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will,..............11 In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will,"

About Jeremiah 7:31 They have built the high places of Topheth in the Valley of Ben Hinnom to burn their sons and daughters in the fire--something I did not command, nor did it enter my mind.. , the word "nor" clarifies that certainly God did not foresee that action. How else can one read that wording? Regardless, every command implies an ability to choose, and that implies the choice is not predetermined.

As for the knowledge of God, rather than quote wall after wall of passages, I'd like to direct you to an article The Omniscience of God which includes many many passages of Scripture.
 
Upvote 0

Everybodyknows

The good guys lost
Dec 19, 2016
796
763
Australia
✟45,191.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Thank you, it's an area I've thought about off and on as long as I can remember. It is more of a preference, I prefer it to give pause, to make distinctions between the different positions, to also explain how one (such as I) can hold to free will and total inability at the same time. On the surface, it sounds absurd, but when going through the Scriptures, especially those touching on the nature of man, both are expressed mostly in other terms.
I still find this a little vague. When you say you hold to free will, in what ways are you free? Obviously you don't believe in libertarian free will.
 
  • Useful
Reactions: YouAreAwesome
Upvote 0

Halbhh

Everything You say is Life to me
Site Supporter
Mar 17, 2015
17,184
9,196
catholic -- embracing all Christians
✟1,157,377.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Sorry, but why are you quoting so many passages if the question is only whether there are some things that are not being foreknown? If you thought I think God doesn't foreknow things, please just read what I posted carefully, and that misperception should get removed.

All the wonderful verses quoted fit fully with the idea I suggested. If not sure, ask about one or two (not 10 though; 1 or 2, so that I can answer in less than pages and pages :)).
 
Last edited:
  • Agree
Reactions: YouAreAwesome
Upvote 0
Oct 21, 2003
6,793
3,289
Central Time Zone
✟107,193.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
I still find this a little vague. When you say you hold to free will, in what ways are you free? Obviously you don't believe in libertarian free will.

It's a complicated question to be honest, for starters, Christians and non-Christians do not have the same freedoms. That we're bound by time, gravity, location, economies, biology, and just a whole host of external conditions, maybe I should be asking you the same question? The Christian set free from the bondage of sin has a choice not to do what he knows is sin, he can fight the good fight of faith, he can put on the whole armor of God, whereas the non-Christian, cannot please God, as we read in the Word, whatever is not of faith [in Christ] is sin. Apart from Christ, all good deeds are as filthy rags before our righteous and Holy God.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: RC1970
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums
Oct 21, 2003
6,793
3,289
Central Time Zone
✟107,193.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Sorry, but why are you quoting so many passages that have no bearing on the question of whether there are some things that are not being foreknown?

Because you said; "But the number of passages, verses, supporting true freedom of choice, non determined, is large, not few"

and because the all of those verses pertain to the discussion, especially free will.

If you thought I think God doesn't foreknow things, please just read what I posted carefully, and that misperception should get removed.

Sorry but I understand the open theism view, no misconception going on. According to that view, God knows all that can possibly be known, and the claim is certain things cannot be known, but that simply does not explain away Scripture, nor agree, nor compatible with. Sorry but I do not know of a polite way of putting it without offending to some degree. I have met OVT's with a high view of Scripture, not that it is compatible with a biblical view of inspiration and illumination.

All the wonderful verses quoted fit fully with the idea I suggested. If not sure, ask about one or two (not 10 though; 1 or 2, so that I can answer in less than pages and pages :)).

I will probably back off this thread for awhile, time is not on my side on the other side of the keyboard.
 
  • Friendly
Reactions: Halbhh
Upvote 0

SkyWriting

The Librarian
Site Supporter
Jan 10, 2010
37,279
8,500
Milwaukee
✟410,948.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Doesn't this make more sense:

1. God controls the destination of each electron in the Cosmos.
2. And gives us Free Will.
3. Contradiction, therefore either (1) or (2) is false.

I would argue that (1) is false based on the existence of evil. If (1) is true, every evil is literally caused by God.

1. Can be true, but evil corrupts good for it's own purposes, and God does
indeed have plans for evil, so it is allowed.
 
Upvote 0

Neal of Zebulun

Active Member
Oct 21, 2017
326
132
33
Texas
✟21,491.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Jeremiah 7:31 They have built the high places of Topheth in the Valley of Ben Hinnom to burn their sons and daughters in the fire--something I did not command, nor did it enter my mind.. , the word "nor" clarifies that certainly God did not foresee that action. How else can one read that wording? Regardless, every command implies an ability to choose, and that implies the choice is not predetermined.

I just read through that chapter recently. When I read that verse, this is what it meant to me, in paraphrase:

"You've been sacrificing children, yea, my children to other gods, who are no gods, and I the true God never commanded you to do such a thing, nor has it ever entered my mind to command you to do such a thing!"

(Notes: In Leviticus 18:21, we do see that Yahweh foresaw such a thing happening, and He outlawed it.

He mentions that they're His children in Ezekiel 23:37.

See how this might be a perversion of the firstborn sacrifice in Exodus 13:2, Exodus 13:13-15, Exodus 22:29, Exodus 34:20, Numbers 3:12-13, Numbers 3:40-51, Numbers 8:15-18.)

That's the way I read it. The other interpretation didn't even enter my mind when I read Jeremiah. I don't have anything to add to the conversation at this time, I just wanted to answer your question.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: RC1970
Upvote 0

SkyWriting

The Librarian
Site Supporter
Jan 10, 2010
37,279
8,500
Milwaukee
✟410,948.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Apart from Christ, all good deeds are as filthy rags before our righteous and Holy God.

I note that you didn't cite your source.
Nothing of the sort is mentioned below.
Did a bunch of writers goof up and leave that out?

James 2:8
If you really fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself,” you are doing well.

Proverbs 3:29
Do not plan evil against your neighbor, who dwells trustingly beside you.

Mark 12:31
The second is this: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no other commandment greater than these.”

Romans 15:2
Let each of us please his neighbor for his good, to build him up.

Proverbs 25:17-18
Let your foot be seldom in your neighbor's house, lest he have his fill of you and hate you. A man who bears false witness against his neighbor is like a war club, or a sword, or a sharp arrow.

Galatians 5:14
For the whole law is fulfilled in one word: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”

Matthew 7:12
“So whatever you wish that others would do to you, do also to them, for this is the Law and the Prophets.

Luke 10:27
And he answered, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind, and your neighbor as yourself.”

Luke 6:31
And as you wish that others would do to you, do so to them.
 
Upvote 0

FireDragon76

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Apr 30, 2013
30,579
18,502
Orlando, Florida
✟1,257,604.00
Country
United States
Faith
United Ch. of Christ
Marital Status
Legal Union (Other)
Politics
US-Democrat
The line of thinking from the Theopedia article led me into another thought. We maintain as the Scriptures tell us, that it is impossible for God to lie. The reasoning is that God is pure and Holy, that is His nature, and to lie would contradict His own nature. So based on that line of thinking, it makes no sense that a man created in the image of God, could choose contrary to his nature.

But if it's impossible for God to lie, in a philosophical sense, how exactly is he omnipotent?

The Lutheran in me doesn't really like this sort of speculation about God's nature, and indeed, our theology emerged from the background of the Scotists who objected to Aquinas' synthesis of logic and reason. We tend to believe God, as he is not clearly revealed in the Scriptures, is unapproachable Divine Majesty, alien, and incomprehensible. His holiness, in this context, is not necessarily a moral quality, but renders him a mysterium tremendum (fearful mystery).

If, for the sake of argument, the nature of God is complete freedom, and humans are made in his image, then it is possible for human beings to choose contrary to their nature, and make themselves slaves.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

YouAreAwesome

☝✌
Oct 17, 2016
2,181
968
Lismore, Australia
✟94,543.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
1. Can be true, but evil corrupts good for it's own purposes, and God does
indeed have plans for evil, so it is allowed.

But this would yield:
1. Evil corrupts good for it's own purposes.
2. God controls the destination of each electron in the Cosmos.
3. Therefore at least some of God's purposes are evil.
 
Upvote 0
Oct 21, 2003
6,793
3,289
Central Time Zone
✟107,193.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
But if it's impossible for God to lie, in a philosophical sense, how exactly is he omnipotent?

The Lutheran in me doesn't really like this sort of speculation about God's nature, and indeed, our theology emerged from the background of the Scotists who objected to Aquinas' synthesis of logic and reason. We tend to believe God, as he is not clearly revealed in the Scriptures, is unapproachable Divine Majesty, alien, and incomprehensible. His holiness, in this context, is not necessarily a moral quality, but renders him a mysterium tremendum (fearful mystery).

If, for the sake of argument, the nature of God is complete freedom, and humans are made in his image, then it is possible for human beings to choose contrary to their nature, and make themselves slaves.

There is NO IF about it... (caps for emphasis)

(Heb 6:18 [ESV]) "so that by two unchangeable things, in which it is impossible for God to lie, we who have fled for refuge might have strong encouragement to hold fast to the hope set before us."

In a very similar way it is impossible for God to create a rock so heavy He cannot lift it. For Him to lift or create a rock so heavy He cannot lift is to go into logical absurdities. It is to say God is not bound by logic therefore logic does not exist in God. If the laws of logic do not apply to God, we're in deep deep trouble concerning the entire basis of our Lutheranism. I think John Warwick Montgomery would be with me on this.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Tree of Life
Upvote 0

YouAreAwesome

☝✌
Oct 17, 2016
2,181
968
Lismore, Australia
✟94,543.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
1) Causality — If causes are understood as conditions prior to an effect that guarantee an effect, and all events have causes, then it follows that all events were preceded by conditions that guaranteed those events. But this is the same as saying all events are determined. Since the choices of humans are events, it follows that the choices of humans are determined.

Why would you think causality alone is responsible for our choices? This thinking seems to bypass that our will (our essence, our soul, our spirit) exists, doesn't it?
 
Upvote 0

FireDragon76

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Apr 30, 2013
30,579
18,502
Orlando, Florida
✟1,257,604.00
Country
United States
Faith
United Ch. of Christ
Marital Status
Legal Union (Other)
Politics
US-Democrat
One possible objections in that in our tradition, Hebrews is not a book that can be used to establish doctrine, since it is antilegomena, a disputed book.

The way I would understand that verse, therefore, is that God has promised he will not lie and is trustworthy, not that he is incapable in his nature of lying. He has merely created a world in which lying to his creatures would not be part of his overall plan.

I am not a doctor in my church, but I have read enough Lutheran theology to know that we believe there are many things about God which are not clearly revealed, that are not knowable with certainty through reason. What his nature is like, is one such example. There may be some Lutherans that are more Thomist in tone, but they are not really being faithful to Luther's theological method, I would argue.

I find it ironic you are taking a line of reasoning that would fit with Aquinas more than Scotus, and yet Scotus' philosophy and theology is what lead to the development of Protestant theology in general, as well as the natural sciences. I don't pretend to be an expert in Reformed theology, however.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums
Oct 21, 2003
6,793
3,289
Central Time Zone
✟107,193.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Why would you think causality alone is responsible for our choices? This thinking seems to bypass that our will (our essence, our soul, our spirit) exists, doesn't it?

The way I attempt to describe it, our choices are as secondary chains of causality, in other words, to borrow the language from a trope, God is not pulling strings like a puppet master, He does not force, but has EVERY right to impose Himself when and where He so desires. Causality alone is not the sole contributor of our choices, by and large I would say most of our choices spring from desires which are bound by our nature. The most complicated thing about desires is, for the Christian, there is the Spirit and the flesh, with contrary desires at constant war with one another. I subscribe to what's called "the two wills of God theory", that within His one will is a permissive/prescriptive aspect, and a sovereign/decree aspect, what should be (and allows) and what shall be.
 
Upvote 0