Pleasing YHWH

The following post was made in another thread. Doug left that thread out of respect for that particular Forum's rules. I brought this post to this forum, not only for Doug's sake, but for anyone else who might share this misunderstanding.

Doug Melven said:

Whether you keep the feast or not will not grant you favor with God.
Faith is the only thing that pleases God. You cannot please Him without it. Hebrews 11:6

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My reply was that faith without works is dead. I gave that response "on the fly;" and even at that time, I knew that there was a more definitive rebuttal.

Here is one verse, (It seems I vaguely remember more) that serves to clear up this misconception.

(CLV) Ro 8:7
because the disposition of the flesh is enmity to God, for it is not subject to the law of God, for neither is it able.

(CLV) Ro 8:8
Now those who are in flesh are not able to please God.

In other words, if one is not subject to the law; he cannot please YHWH.

As for the scripture that Doug posted:

(CLV) Hb 11:6
Now apart from faith it is impossible to be well pleasing, for he who is coming to God must believe that He is, and is becoming a Rewarder of those who are seeking Him out.

Again, it seems that we can't please YHWH without faith.

Obviously it takes both faith in YHWH, and submission to YHWH's law, in order to please him.

Shabbat Shalom.

Doug Melven said:

Would it not be the law of faith referred to in Romans 3:27?

Thank you Hark for bringing this thread over.

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You're welcome Doug.

Let's take a look.

This verse came several verses before the verse you cited, from the same letter.

(CLV) Ro 2:13
For not the listeners to law are just with God, but the doers of law shall be justified.

What law is Paul talking about here? Yahweh's law. You can hear commands; but you can't hear faith. In context (I'm paraphrasing and adding commentary) Paul says that we've fallen short. The penalty for falling short is death. This is one place where faith comes in. We must have faith that Yahweh will forgive us, if we submit to him. So what is there to boast about? We failed YHWH; but we are called to have faith that he will show mercy if we repent; and do his will, not ours, by our brother Yahshua's example.

Now on to the verse you cited:

(CLV) Ro 3:27
Where, then, is boasting? It is debarred! Through what law? Of works? Not! But through faith's law.

You might begin to see now that this verse describes the same law, Yahweh's law. The distinction is in how we approach keeping his law. Do we boast, and take the glory for ourselves, as we feebly attempt to keep Yahweh's law; or do we humble ourselves, and ask Yahweh to give us the strength to do his will in faith, and love, to his glory?

The next verse comes several verses later in the same letter. I should help to answer my question, and yours.

(CLV) Ro 3:31
Are we, then, nullifying law through faith? May it not be coming to that! Nay, we are sustaining law.

Now if we suppose that there were two different laws, the law of works, and faith's law; this verse clearly states that the law of works is not nullified by faith's law.

Doug Melven said:

The law of works is not nullified, it is established.
But what does this mean, "it is established"?

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I didn't say that it was established. You did. My translation says it is sustained. I would agree with that translation in that Yahweh's law is sustained in us in out faith in him.

I won't split hairs on which translation is more correct any further; as that niether translation is what the Greek says. The Greek word in question is histanomen. It most literally means 'we are standing up'. In other words, through faith we are standing up the law.

The law stands.

Doug Melven said:

Now everybody needs to keep it. Can't be, because in Romans 3 & 4 Paul makes it clear nobody keeps the law.

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Where? I don't want to sift through two chapters in an attempt to try to figure out what you've inferred.

Doug Melven said:

No one is justified by the law of works.

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James 2:21
Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?


James 2:24
Ye see then how that by works a man justified, and not by faith only.

Doug Melven said:

The law exposes our sin and declares us sinners. This is what is established, now that we know we are sinners and have no hope of pleasing God by our works, we must please God by having faith and then we are justified.

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1 Timothy

" 8 Now we are aware that the law is ideal if ever anyone is using it lawfully, 9 being aware of this, that law is not laid down for the just, yet it is for the lawless and insubordinate, the irreverent and sinners, the malign and profane, thrashers of fathers and thrashers of mothers, homicides, 10 paramours, sodomites, kidnapers, liars, perjurers, and if any other thing is opposing sound teaching, 11 in accord with the evangel of the glory of the happy God, with which I was entrusted."

Doug Melven said:

We are to live by faith. 2 Corinthians 5:7

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(CLV) 2Co 5:7
(for by faith are we walking, not by perception)

This verse has nothing to do with disobedience to YHWH's law. I suspect that it is about faith in YHWH in contrast to relying on one's own understanding.

King James Bible

James 2:18

Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

Doug Melven said:

It is just like getting in a conga line, just follow the one in front of you..

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That would be Yahshua, he's following Yahweh, and keeping Yahweh's law.

Doug Melven said:

The law would be like a map of where you are going.

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Doug Melven said:

Those in the line don't have to know where the leader is going, they just have to trust the leader to not lead us wrong.

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Yahweh already told us where he is leading us.

Doug Melven said:

The Holy Spirit is at the head of the conga line and He knows the map very well.

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Yahweh is clearly the head; and he and Yahshua already told us how to to get there.


(CLV) Mt 7:21
"Not everyone saying to Me `Lord! Lord!' will be entering into the kingdom of the heavens, but he who is doing the will of My Father Who is in the heavens.

(CLV) Mt 7:22
Many will be declaring to Me in that day, `Lord! Lord! Was it not in Your name that we prophesy, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name do many powerful deeds?'

(CLV) Mt 7:23
And then shall I be avowing to them that `I never knew you! Depart from Me, workers of LAWLESSNESS!'

Doug Melven said:

10according as it is written, that "Not one is just- not even one."

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Paul references Tellihim 14:3 in this verse. Let's look at it in context.

(CLV) Ps 14:1
The decadent one (Who?) says in his heart, There is no Elohim. (The one who says Yahweh doesn't exist.)They (Who? The ones who say Yahweh doesn't exist.) have become corrupt and abhorrent in activity; There is no one (Who? The ones who say Yahweh doesn't exist.) doing good.

(CLV) Ps 14:2
Yahweh, He gazes down from the heavens on the sons of humanity, To see whether there is anyone acting intelligently, Anyone seeking after Elohim. (When? Always, or at a given period of time?)

(CLV) Ps 14:3
All withdraw aside; Together they are spoiled. There is no one doing good; There is not even one. (When? Always, or at a given period of time?)

(CLV) Ps 14:4
Have they (Who? The ones who say Yahweh doesn't exist?)not knowledge, all these contrivers of lawlessness, Who (Who? The ones who say Yahweh doesn't exist?) are devouring My people (Wait a minute. So these people who reject Yahweh and his LAW are different from Yahweh's people?) as they would devour bread? They do not call upon Yahweh. (So those who call on Yahweh aren't contrivers of lawlessness?)

(CLV) Ps 14:5
There they are afraid with alarm when not alarm is present, For Elohim is with the generation of the righteous one. (The generation of the righteous one? Is David talking about the sons of Avraham?)

(CLV) Ps 14:6
You evildoers (Who? The contrivers of Lawlessness.) would put to shame the counsel of the humble one, (Who? A son of Avraham?) Yet Yahweh is his (Who? A son of Avraham?) Refuge.

(CLV) Ps 14:7
O that the Salvation of Israel would come from Zion, When Yahweh will reverse the captivity of His people! (Who? The sons of Avraham?) Let Jacob exult! Let Israel rejoice! A Davidic Psalm
.

Doug Melven said:

11 Not one is understanding. Not one is seeking out God. 12 All avoid Him: at the same time they were useless. Not one is doing kindness: there is not even one!" 13 A sepulcher opened is their throat. With their tongues they defraud."The venom of asps is under their lips." 14 Whose mouth with imprecation and bitterness is crammed. 15 Sharp are their feet to shed blood. 16 Bruises and wretchedness are in their ways, 17 And the way of peace they do not know." 18 There is no fear of God in front of their eyes. 19 Now we are aware that, whatever the law is saying, it is speaking to those under the law, that every mouth may be barred, and the entire world may become subject to the just verdict of God, 20because, by works of law, no flesh at all shall be justified in His sight, for through law is the recognition of sin." 21 Yet now, apart from law, a righteousness of God is manifest (being attested by the law and the prophets),22 yet a righteousness of God through Jesus Christ's faith, for all, and on all who are believing, for there is no distinction, 23 for all sinned and are wanting of the glory of God. 24 Being justified gratuitously in His grace, through the deliverance which is in Christ Jesus"

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Why didn't you post verse 31?

(CLV) Ro 3:31
Are we, then, nullifying law through faith? May it not be coming to that! Nay, we are sustaining law.

It seem somehow like we've done this before.

Doug Melven said:

2 For if Abraham was justified by acts, he has something to boast in, but not toward God." 3 For what is the scripture saying? Now "Abraham believes God, and it is reckoned to him for righteousness." 4 Now to the worker, the wage is not reckoned as a favor, but as a debt." 5 Yet to him who is not working, yet is believing on Him Who is justifying the irreverent, his faith is reckoned for righteousness."
There is more in Romans 4. Even briefly skimming these chapters will show you cannot be justified by the works of the law.

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https://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/James-2-21/

Again


James 2:21
Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?


James 2:24
Ye see then how that by works a man justified, and not by faith only.

Doug Melven said:

James is not talking about being justified by YHWH, but showing our justification by YHWH to people.
As is evidenced by James 2:18.

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...And again:


James 2:21
Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?


James 2:24
Ye see then how that by works a man justified, and not by faith only.


Have you read that story about Avraham lately? I don't remember there being an audience present.

Doug Melven said:

So the person who says he has faith without works. Possible, but not likely.

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.....which brings us full circle. Faith without works is dead.

Matthew 12:33
Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit.

John 15:4
Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.

John 15:10
If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

John 14:10
the words that I speak to you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwells in me, he does the works.

John 12:50
And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.

Luke 3:8 Bring forth therefore fruits worthy of repentance, and begin not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, That God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.

Luke 3:9
And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: every tree therefore which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.