Do prayers have NO practical effect, since the Father knows the future?

Do prayers have NO practical effect, since the Father knows the future?

  • Yes

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  • No

    Votes: 10 90.9%

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yeshuaslavejeff

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Can you explain why it repented God that and grieves over the decision if God already knew man would turn out so badly? I see no room here for God already knowing all this and then still it repents Him and He grieves.
As when Jesus prayed out loud,
and stated He did so for the benefit of His disciples nearby listening (and for us who read this later),
so also,
since Yahweh knew all things always , forever past and future,
all the hairs on our head numbered even, every thought , desire and dream,
every imagination, every hope, every sin and every good deed we ever did or will do or ever thought of or will think of,
He knew before even creating the world;

and gloriously HE works everything out for the good of those who willingly chose to obey Him (love Him), who are called according to His Purpose;
He provided generously for all needs in this life and in the next;
His wisdom and knowledge is beyond all comprehension,
far far far greater than
anyone can even think about in their grandest imaginations !
 
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ewq1938

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since Yahweh knew all things always , forever past and future

So far that appears to not be fully accurate. I have presented two scriptures which indicate God not knowing the future in certain circumstances. Please comment on those verses please.
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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I have presented two scriptures which indicate God not knowing the future in certain circumstances.
It looks like from the Words Yahweh chose to Speak and have Written,
you chose to assume why He did that.

That does not fit though with the rest of Scripture, which is all in complete harmony.

He is not required to explain 'why' He chose certain words, although often it is written in His Word, for those to whom
He grants understanding.

Without His understanding, I don't think it is ever wise to 'guess' why He said or did what He said or did, especially when the guess is in conflict with the rest of His Word, or even just one part of His Word, since He never contradicts Himself.
 
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~Anastasia~

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But that is what you believe to be true, not something God states is true.

Genesis 6:6 And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.

Can you explain why it repented God that and grieves over the decision if God already knew man would turn out so badly? I see no room here for God already knowing all this and then still it repents Him and He grieves.

Isa 5:2 And he fenced it, and gathered out the stones thereof, and planted it with the choicest vine, and built a tower in the midst of it, and also made a winepress therein: and he looked that it should bring forth grapes, and it brought forth wild grapes.

"He dug it all around, removed its stones, and planted it with the choicest vine. And He built a tower in the middle of it and also hewed out a wine vat in it; Then He expected it to produce good grapes, but it produced only worthless ones" (Isa. 5:2).

Here God clearly expected one thing but another thing occurred proving in this particular situation showing he did not know what would occur.

A major reason? You're reading English. Translated from the Masoretic text.

The Greek Septuagint (an older manuscript) does not actually use the word we normally translate as repent.

I'm still working on Greek, but here's what I see ...

Gen. 6

6 καὶ ἐνεθυμήθη ὁ Θεὸς ὅτι ἐποίησε τὸν ἄνθρωπον ἐπὶ τῆς γῆς, καὶ διενοήθη. 7 καὶ εἶπεν ὁ Θεός· ἀπαλείψω τὸν ἄνθρωπον, ὃν ἐποίησα ἀπὸ προσώπου τῆς γῆς, ἀπὸ ἀνθρώπου ἕως κτήνους καὶ ἀπό ἑρπετῶν ἕως πετεινῶν τοῦ οὐρανοῦ, ὅτι μετεμελήθην ὅτι ἐποίησα αὐτούς.


6 kai enethymenthe ho theos hoti epoisen ton anthropon epi tes ges, kai dienoethe. (Sorry this part isn't pasting properly from source and I can't add the marks)

7 kai epen ho theos apaleipso ton anthropon hon epoisa apo prosopou tes ges apo anthropou heos ktenous kai apo herpeton heos ton peteinon tou ouranou hoti ethymothen hoti epoisa autous.

I have bolded the relevant words above so that you can check them if you like. Sorry it's rather messy - I'm working from a number of sources and battling my autocorrect as well, lol, and my keyboard lacks the accent marks for transliterated text.

But a more accurate translation would be this:

6 then God laid it to heart that he had made man upon the earth, and he pondered it deeply 7 and God said, I will blot out man whom I have made from the face of the earth, even man with cattle, and reptiles with flying creatures of the sky, for I am grieved that I have made them.

The Greek repent is μετάνοια - metanoia - a word we know well. But that is not what God says he was doing.

Yes, God was obviously displeased with what men had done. But does that actually surprise us? We know that God is displeased when we sin (same thing, He was displeased that men ever sinned at all). But that cannot mean that He had no idea that men would sin, or else how can it be that Christ was the Lamb slain before the foundation of the world?

Just because man did not do as God would have wished us to do, because He did not make us puppets, but gave us free will, does not necessarily mean that man's sin took God by surprise. As I said, I don't think that is even possible, because Christ's sacrifice was planned before man was ever created. God may regret our sin, but He still knew we would before He ever created us. So I don't see how He could be ignorant of the fact.

This took a good deal of effort in searching and typing on a device not optimized for the effort, so I'm not going to do the same thing with Isaiah.

Isaiah 5 is a parable. It illustrates that God gave Israel all that was needed, every benefit, and waited for them to do the right thing, but they did wrong. (The best translation from the Septuagint is waiting for in v. 2.)

The word "expect" can have a different meaning that knowing a certain thing will happen. I don't have time at the moment to see if there's something deeper in the Greek than I know, but we say we expect a thing to be done - we may mean that this is the requirement, the rule, we place on someone. In fact, that's a more common meaning for "expectation" ... rather than to think it means "prediction".

I don't believe I'm contradicting God here. Your point is taken from isolated words in a translated text thousands of years later. Studying the Scriptures is a valuable thing we should do, but it can be very precarious to build a doctrine based on a single (or even a few) words - most especially translations of words. It is a good idea to submit our conclusions to the whole of Scripture. And the whole of Scripture illustrates God repeatedly knowing outcomes, giving prophecies that always come to pass, and speaking of His intimate knowledge of everything. How can a God who knows how many hairs are on the head of every person in every given instant ... not realize that creation was going to fall?

I'm just going on instinct. There may well be much more well-informed knowledge on the subject than I'm offering. But my understanding of God and my reading of Scripture as a whole and my experience in seeing how a word here or there can lead to false conclusions if given too much weight - all point me to doubting your conclusion.

Please understand there is no malice intended, and no desire to argue or condescend. But since you asked me why I said what I did, I'm attempting to explain.
 
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searcher24

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I'm afraid I'm going to have to completely disagree that God actually doesn't know what will happen.
Hi Anastasia! Thanks for your answer :)
And thanks for your blessings!!!

I never said that God doesn't know the future, on the contrary, I personally always argued that the knowledge of the future AND the effectiveness of the prayer are completely compatible. Actually, that is a ridiculously simple theological concept:
Boethius's Views | a2-level-level-revision, religious-studies, philosophy-religion, attributes-god, boethiuss-views | Revision World
but I've offered examples even simpler. in the previous post.

So in a way he changes His mind, but for us it seems that He changes His mind in the moment in which the prayer is listened, while for Him it may mean that, by forecasting the future, he saw our prayers and from the very beginning he took His decisions taking them into account too! :)

Btw, since Jesus has taught the less ambiguous and less prone to weird interpretation parable ever, (Luke 18:1-8), I think that we can be sure that at least Scripturally prayers have a practical effect. That parable is in particular about the prayer for the last days:

"Then Jesus told his disciples a parable to show them that they should always pray and not give up. 2 He said: “In a certain town there was a judge who neither feared God nor cared what people thought. 3 And there was a widow in that town who kept coming to him with the plea, ‘Grant me justice against my adversary.’

4 “For some time he refused. But finally he said to himself, ‘Even though I don’t fear God or care what people think, 5 yet because this widow keeps bothering me, I will see that she gets justice, so that she won’t eventually come and attack me!’”

6 And the Lord said, “Listen to what the unjust judge says. 7 And will not God bring about justice for his chosen ones, who cry out to him day and night? Will he keep putting them off? 8 I tell you, he will see that they get justice, and quickly. However, when the Son of Man comes, will he find faith on the earth?
”"
 
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~Anastasia~

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Hi Anastasia! Thanks for your answer :)
And thanks for your blessings!!!

I never said that God doesn't know the future, on the contrary, I personally always argued that the knowledge of the future AND the effectiveness of the prayer are completely compatible. Actually, that is a ridiculously simple theological concept:
Boethius's Views | a2-level-level-revision, religious-studies, philosophy-religion, attributes-god, boethiuss-views | Revision World
but I've offered examples even simpler. in the previous post.

So in a way he changes His mind, but for us it seems that He changes His mind in the moment in which the prayer is listened, while for Him it may mean that, by forecasting the future, he saw our prayers and from the very beginning he took His decisions taking them into account too! :)

Btw, since Jesus has taught the less ambiguous and less prone to weird interpretation parable ever, (Luke 18:1-8), I think that we can be sure that at least Scripturally prayers have a practical effect. That parable is in particular about the prayer for the last days:

"Then Jesus told his disciples a parable to show them that they should always pray and not give up. 2 He said: “In a certain town there was a judge who neither feared God nor cared what people thought. 3 And there was a widow in that town who kept coming to him with the plea, ‘Grant me justice against my adversary.’

4 “For some time he refused. But finally he said to himself, ‘Even though I don’t fear God or care what people think, 5 yet because this widow keeps bothering me, I will see that she gets justice, so that she won’t eventually come and attack me!’”

6 And the Lord said, “Listen to what the unjust judge says. 7 And will not God bring about justice for his chosen ones, who cry out to him day and night? Will he keep putting them off? 8 I tell you, he will see that they get justice, and quickly. However, when the Son of Man comes, will he find faith on the earth?
”"

Ah, forgive me for the confusion. I'm afraid I didn't quote and I should have. I was replying to another poster who was interpreting a passage as meaning that God did not know what would happen.

I actually think you're correct about God knowing what we will pray. So that we can even pray for things that the answer to might make it necessary, for God to have already acted in our past. But it's never "too late" to pray many such prayers.

And that is a very interesting parable you quote. ;)

God be with you!
 
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ewq1938

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A major reason? You're reading English. Translated from the Masoretic text.

The Greek Septuagint (an older manuscript) does not actually use the word we normally translate as repent.

My argument doesn't reply only on repent but that God grieved after seeing how bad man became...that shows regret and also shows he did not foreknow this about mankind.



Isaiah 5 is a parable. It illustrates that God gave Israel all that was needed, every benefit, and waited for them to do the right thing, but they did wrong. (The best translation from the Septuagint is waiting for in v. 2.)

The word "expect" can have a different meaning that knowing a certain thing will happen.

Again, this isn't about one word...it's the thought expressed in the entire verse. God expected something to happen but it did not happen. That proves God does not always know what the future holds.

Isa 5:2 And he fenced it, and gathered out the stones thereof, and planted it with the choicest vine, and built a tower in the midst of it, and also made a winepress therein: and he looked that it should bring forth grapes, and it brought forth wild grapes.


Please understand there is no malice intended, and no desire to argue or condescend. But since you asked me why I said what I did, I'm attempting to explain.

Everyone has a voice here to express what they believe in. I'm showing you why I believe this way based on what God has written and you are free to believe differently.

There are more I have come across. For example, his knowledge of the future is "iffy" in the case of Sodom. "If I find... " Also, Jer. 18 states that God warns, then waits to see what happens, before taking action. Now, if God know the future ahead of time, he would not have to wait around to see what is going to happen.
 
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Hank77

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I would say that God does not change His mind and He does not change His purpose for a particular outcome, but He does at times change the coarse of how that purpose is achieved.

I believe God has a plan and that plan, just like all prophecy will come to pass, it's preordained if you will. However, I believe that most things in our daily lives God allows us to make choices.

I believe our prayers can be effectual in that we have a loving, merciful Father who chooses to hear us and chooses to move to answer our prayers by His grace.
 
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searcher24

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I actually think you're correct about God knowing what we will pray. So that we can even pray for things that the answer to might make it necessary, for God to have already acted in our past. But it's never "too late" to pray many such prayers.

And that is a very interesting parable you quote. ;)

Exactly sister!
What puzzles me a bit, it that it seems to me an incredibly simple concept, and very Scriptural too with respect to the idea that our prayers don't have effects, yet it seems so hard to understand... For instance, in this thread (in which you already answered too) this concept and the very basic meaning of Luke 18:1-8 are completely rejected by some: (Can we pray for shortening the days of the Second Coming?) :

Any idea why?

Ps: I really appreciate the tone of your posts, you seem to have a very kind and gentle heart :)
 
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~Anastasia~

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My argument doesn't reply only on repent but that God grieved after seeing how bad man became...that shows regret and also shows he did not foreknow this about mankind.

But it is possible to KNOW something will happen and still be grieved when it does. It happens to us humans all the time.


Again, this isn't about one word...it's the thought expressed in the entire verse. God expected something to happen but it did not happen. That proves God does not always know what the future holds.

Isa 5:2 And he fenced it, and gathered out the stones thereof, and planted it with the choicest vine, and built a tower in the midst of it, and also made a winepress therein: and he looked that it should bring forth grapes, and it brought forth wild grapes.

Again, we can expect someone to do the right thing, yet know that they won't, and be grieved when it turns out that way. Even so, our knowledge is imperfect. But we can know that people will fail to meet our expectations.

Everyone has a voice here to express what they believe in. I'm showing you why I believe this way based on what God has written and you are free to believe differently.

Quite true. :)

There are more I have come across. For example, his knowledge of the future is "iffy" in the case of Sodom. "If I find... " Also, Jer. 18 states that God warns, then waits to see what happens, before taking action. Now, if God know the future ahead of time, he would not have to wait around to see what is going to happen.

Yes, there are in fact many times God tests us, in addition to the ones mentioned in Scripture. I used to wonder if that meant God needed to find out what we would do. I no longer think that. I think ... God may know that we will fail, but wouldn't we cry that was "unfair" if He just bypassed the test and acted on His knowledge that we would in fact fail? No, we only suffer consequences for what we have actually done, not what God knew we would do anyway.

And the deeper truth of that is that God uses these tests, both successes and failures, to mold us and strengthen our faith and make us more like Christ, if we will just cooperate with His grace. Such intricate ability to "work all things for the good of those who love Him" requires that He have intimate foreknowledge not only of our choices in advance, but everyone else's in response, etc.



This is not some elaborate play going on throughout history for God's amusement, with Him anxiously waiting to see how all the details turn out. No, all of history is His patience and lovingkindness at work in the lives of every person ever created, intimately woven together according to His knowledge and purposes, giving the hope and chance for restoration to as many as will receive it.
 
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ewq1938

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This is not some elaborate play going on throughout history for God's amusement, with Him anxiously waiting to see how all the details turn out.


He knows many details but I see in scripture that he chooses not to know all future details. I have cited enough examples to show this.

H5162
נחם
nâcham
naw-kham'
A primitive root; properly to sigh, that is, breathe strongly; by implication to be sorry, that is, (in a favorable sense) to pity, console or (reflexively) rue; or (unfavorably) to avenge (oneself): - comfort (self), ease [one’s self], repent (-er, -ing, self).

I am not convinced the Masoretic text excludes this word in the verse, and even if it does I will always believe it repented God to have made man as it is written. This means to be sorry to have done something, which is regret. This is not something that would happen if God knew how man would have turned out.
 
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God is the I AM, which means He has no past or future. He is always NOW. That means He is as much in what we call the future or past as He is in the present moment. He knows what will happen, but that does not mean He causes it. For example, if you see a very drunk driver, you can know that he will either end up in the ditch or hitting another car. That does not mean you caused the drunk to do what happens. You do not cause the free will of the driver to make this mistake. The driver chose it.
Some prayers God will always answer, like when we pray for some spiritual good such as more charity.
Some prayers He will answer only if we ask. Other things will happen if we do not pray. Since we cannot know one from the other, it is best to pray always. We have to be willing to accept what comes.
 
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