Is "Christian Zionism" an Oxymoron?

jgr said:

That will include Judas and those responsible for Christ's death. Be ready to greet them in heaven.

Zechariah 12
10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

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All of those went to hell thousands of years ago. I very explicitly said "all THE REST of them," which is all of them that were not removed in the purge. But, as you are not willing to accept the explicitly stated words of scripture, you want to make this into something neither they nor myself said.

BABerean2 said:

Let me see if I understand what you are saying...

Christians will be with Christ in the future.

And after the Second Coming, Christ will return people of a certain DNA sequence to a piece of land in the Middle East and they will then be with Christ.

If we are with Christ and they are also with Christ at that point, how are there two separate Peoples of God?

Will we be segregated into two separate groups, based on race ?

Your first statement above cannot be correct, because you said that Israelites who accept Christ will not get any land and then later you said Israelites will accept Christ and they do get land.
You cannot have it both ways.
Which is it?

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At that time the people of God will be separated into two peoples, based on whether or not we are still in our natural bodies. The ones brought back to the land are people that have never died, and are thus still capable of marrying, having children, and dying. And this is not MY opinion, but the explicit statements of scripture. For all three of these activities are EXPLICITLY stated to take place at this time.

But not even one of these scriptures says, or even hints, that these people, restored to their ancient homeland, will be "with Christ." That promise is ONLY given to us, not to them.

Israelites who accept Christ at this time become part of the body of Christ, and are taken to be with the Lord. Israelites that turn to Him after He has returned will still be living in this world, and will be blessed IN THIS WORLD.

You find yourself unable to understand this because, and simply because, you have chosen to refuse to believe the explicitly stated promised made to these people, and thus you are unable to understand the differences between these promises and those made to us.

Biblewriter said:

All of those went to hell thousands of years ago. I very explicitly said "all THE REST of them," which is all of them that were not removed in the purge. But, as you are not willing to accept the explicitly stated words of scripture, you want to make this into something neither they nor myself said.

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Then who is "they" of they shall look upon me whom they have pierced referring to EXPLICITLY?

jgr said:

Then who is "they" of they shall look upon me whom they have pierced referring to EXPLICITLY?

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From your current comment, as well as from previous posts you have made on this statement, you WANT to interpret this word "they" to mean the specific individuals that did the piercing. But this is conclusion is demonstrably incorrect.

While this statement is indeed couched in explicit language, the word in question, the one you are stressing, "they" (which, by the way, is represented simply by a syllable in the Hebrew) takes its meaning from the context. And in CHOOSING to interpret it the way you WANT to interpret it, you are completely ignoring the context.

To understand the context of this one word "they," it is necessary to examine the entire block of text in which it is used.

This statement is part 0f Zechariah 12:10. So we need to examine that passage. So, looking first at the section leading up to the sentence which contains this statement, we read:

"1 The burden of the word of the LORD against Israel. Thus says the LORD, who stretches out the heavens, lays the foundation of the earth, and forms the spirit of man within him: 2 "Behold, I will make Jerusalem a cup of drunkenness to all the surrounding peoples, when they lay siege against Judah and Jerusalem. 3 And it shall happen in that day that I will make Jerusalem a very heavy stone for all peoples; all who would heave it away will surely be cut in pieces, though all nations of the earth are gathered against it. 4 In that day," says the LORD, "I will strike every horse with confusion, and its rider with madness; I will open My eyes on the house of Judah, and will strike every horse of the peoples with blindness. 5 And the governors of Judah shall say in their heart, 'The inhabitants of Jerusalem are my strength in the LORD of hosts, their God.' 6 In that day I will make the governors of Judah like a firepan in the woodpile, and like a fiery torch in the sheaves; they shall devour all the surrounding peoples on the right hand and on the left, but Jerusalem shall be inhabited again in her own place--Jerusalem. 7 "The LORD will save the tents of Judah first, so that the glory of the house of David and the glory of the inhabitants of Jerusalem shall not become greater than that of Judah. 8 In that day the LORD will defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; the one who is feeble among them in that day shall be like David, and the house of David shall be like God, like the Angel of the LORD before them. 9 It shall be in that day that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem." Zechariah 12:1-9

Now every section that I have highlighted here is clearly prophesying something that has never happened, even up to the present time. Preterists want to pretend that this happened in AD 70. but that is totally false.

The section that I have highlighted in purple, says that the Lord will make Jerusalem "A cup of drunkenness" to all the surrounding people. But the insanity recorded in the historical documents of that day took place in Jerusalem, not among the surrounding nations.

The section I have highlighted in blue says that "all who would heave [Jerusalem] away shall be cut in pieces." This is exactly the opposite of what happened in A.D. 70.

The section I have highlighted in orange says that "the governors of Judah,"shall devour all the surrounding peoples on the right hand and on the left." But in A.D. 70, the governors of Judah were themselves devoured.


The section I have highlighted in red says that "the Lord will defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem." But in A.D. 70, He allowed many of them to be killed, and the rest enslaved.

And the section I have highlighted in pink says that "at that day," the Lord "will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem." But the ONLY nation He destroyed in A.D. 70 was Judea.

Next, we examine that section that follows the sentence which contains the statement in question, and we read:

"Yes, they will mourn for Him, as one mourns for his own son and grieve for Him, as one grieves for a firstborn. 11 In that day there shall be a great mourning in Jerusalem, like the mourning at Hadad Rimmon in the plain of Megiddo. 12 And the land shall mourn, every family by itself: the family of the house of David by itself, and their wives by themselves; the family of the house of Nathan by itself, and their wives by themselves; 13 the family of the house of Levi by itself, and their wives by themselves; the family of Shimei by itself, and their wives by themselves; 14 all the families that remain, every family by itself, and their wives by themselves." Zechariah 12:10b-14

In the past, you have insisted that this is speaking of the general mourning in the city and the land, when the Romans destroyed them in A.D. 70. But This mourning and grieving is explicitly stated tb be morning FOR HIM, and Grieving FOR HIM. The Hebrew word used in both cases in "oli·u." This does not mean, or imply, mourning and grieving because of the punishment they received for what they had done to Him, but rather mourning and grieving because of what had been don to, or because of what had happened to HIM, that is, Jesus.

And not even one historical record of the day said anything about a division of the people by family and gender, as they mourned due to the destruction in A.D. 70.

I have taken the time to clearly demonstrate that the entire context of the sentence in question is a prophecy which remains to be fulfilled in the future. And again, this is a critical fact because the word "they" takes its meaning from the context.

But we do not even need to follow all this inescapable logic to analyze the sentence in question. For the entire sentence is "And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced." Zechariah 12:10a

So, even within the context of just this one sentence, the word "they" clearly refers to "the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem."

You WANT this to mean that the specific individuals that pierced Him would look upon Him and mourn.' But the specific individuals that did this were not even "the house of David," nor were they "the inhabitants of Jerusalem." For the individuals that actually did this were the Romans, who are not even mentioned in this passage.

Thus, there is absolutely zero logical or scriptural basis for even trying to pretend that this means that the specific individuals that pierced Him will look in Him and mourn.

The meaning of this passage is clearly that, in a future day, "the house of David, and "the inhabitants of Jerusalem" will look on Him (Jesus) whom they (the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem) pierced, and in that day, they (the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem) will repent with bitter weeping.

BABerean2 said:

If they are in Israel and Christ is in Israel at the same time, how can they not be with Christ?

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In he Old Testament, God was clearly stated to be "in Israel," no less that five times. (1 Samuel 17:46, 1 Kings 18:36, 2 Kings 1:3, 2 Kings 1:6, and 2 Kings 1:16) But He was clearly not with them, and they in Him, in the same sense of closeness in which both are true for us today, under the New Covenant.

BABerean2 said:

Will He be ruling from the temple in Jerusalem and people from all over the world will come up to worship Him in Jerusalem?

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He will be ruling in perfect righteousness. But the person actually sitting on the throne will be a human, for Ezekiel 45:17-46:12 specifies how he is to worship, and Ezekiel 46:16-18 explicitly speaks of him having sons, and specifies rules limiting what he will be allowed to do.

BABerean2 said:

Will we not be walking among these mortals, during this time?

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BABerean2 said:

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I am fully aware that many have expressed this idea, even going all the way back to Justyn Martyr. But no scripture anywhere says this.

BABerean2 said:

Are you saying that Christ will be in heaven with us while this human is sitting on David's throne in Jerusalem?

Is David that human?

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David has died, and thus at that time will be resurrected. And in the resurrection, they neither marry nor are given in marriage. So the fact that this individual will have sons clearly shows that he will not be the historical king David, although he may have the same name.

Biblewriter said:

From your current comment, as well as from previous posts you have made on this statement, you WANT to interpret this word "they" to mean the specific individuals that did the piercing. But this is conclusion is demonstrably incorrect.

While this statement is indeed couched in explicit language, the word in question, the one you are stressing, "they" (which, by the way, is represented simply by a syllable in the Hebrew) takes its meaning from the context. And in CHOOSING to interpret it the way you WANT to interpret it, you are completely ignoring the context.

To understand the context of this one word "they," it is necessary to examine the entire block of text in which it is used.

This statement is part 0f Zechariah 12:10. So we need to examine that passage. So, looking first at the section leading up to the sentence which contains this statement, we read:

"1 The burden of the word of the LORD against Israel. Thus says the LORD, who stretches out the heavens, lays the foundation of the earth, and forms the spirit of man within him: 2 "Behold, I will make Jerusalem a cup of drunkenness to all the surrounding peoples, when they lay siege against Judah and Jerusalem. 3 And it shall happen in that day that I will make Jerusalem a very heavy stone for all peoples; all who would heave it away will surely be cut in pieces, though all nations of the earth are gathered against it. 4 In that day," says the LORD, "I will strike every horse with confusion, and its rider with madness; I will open My eyes on the house of Judah, and will strike every horse of the peoples with blindness. 5 And the governors of Judah shall say in their heart, 'The inhabitants of Jerusalem are my strength in the LORD of hosts, their God.' 6 In that day I will make the governors of Judah like a firepan in the woodpile, and like a fiery torch in the sheaves; they shall devour all the surrounding peoples on the right hand and on the left, but Jerusalem shall be inhabited again in her own place--Jerusalem. 7 "The LORD will save the tents of Judah first, so that the glory of the house of David and the glory of the inhabitants of Jerusalem shall not become greater than that of Judah. 8 In that day the LORD will defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; the one who is feeble among them in that day shall be like David, and the house of David shall be like God, like the Angel of the LORD before them. 9 It shall be in that day that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem." Zechariah 12:1-9

Now every section that I have highlighted here is clearly prophesying something that has never happened, even up to the present time. Preterists want to pretend that this happened in AD 70. but that is totally false.

The section that I have highlighted in purple, says that the Lord will make Jerusalem "A cup of drunkenness" to all the surrounding people. But the insanity recorded in the historical documents of that day took place in Jerusalem, not among the surrounding nations.

The section I have highlighted in blue says that "all who would heave [Jerusalem] away shall be cut in pieces." This is exactly the opposite of what happened in A.D. 70.

The section I have highlighted in orange says that "the governors of Judah,"shall devour all the surrounding peoples on the right hand and on the left." But in A.D. 70, the governors of Judah were themselves devoured.


The section I have highlighted in red says that "the Lord will defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem." But in A.D. 70, He allowed many of them to be killed, and the rest enslaved.

And the section I have highlighted in pink says that "at that day," the Lord "will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem." But the ONLY nation He destroyed in A.D. 70 was Judea.

Next, we examine that section that follows the sentence which contains the statement in question, and we read:

"Yes, they will mourn for Him, as one mourns for his own son and grieve for Him, as one grieves for a firstborn. 11 In that day there shall be a great mourning in Jerusalem, like the mourning at Hadad Rimmon in the plain of Megiddo. 12 And the land shall mourn, every family by itself: the family of the house of David by itself, and their wives by themselves; the family of the house of Nathan by itself, and their wives by themselves; 13 the family of the house of Levi by itself, and their wives by themselves; the family of Shimei by itself, and their wives by themselves; 14 all the families that remain, every family by itself, and their wives by themselves." Zechariah 12:10b-14

In the past, you have insisted that this is speaking of the general mourning in the city and the land, when the Romans destroyed them in A.D. 70. But This mourning and grieving is explicitly stated tb be morning FOR HIM, and Grieving FOR HIM. The Hebrew word used in both cases in "oli·u." This does not mean, or imply, mourning and grieving because of the punishment they received for what they had done to Him, but rather mourning and grieving because of what had been don to, or because of what had happened to HIM, that is, Jesus.

And not even one historical record of the day said anything about a division of the people by family and gender, as they mourned due to the destruction in A.D. 70.

I have taken the time to clearly demonstrate that the entire context of the sentence in question is a prophecy which remains to be fulfilled in the future. And again, this is a critical fact because the word "they" takes its meaning from the context.

But we do not even need to follow all this inescapable logic to analyze the sentence in question. For the entire sentence is "And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced." Zechariah 12:10a

So, even within the context of just this one sentence, the word "they" clearly refers to "the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem."

You WANT this to mean that the specific individuals that pierced Him would look upon Him and mourn.' But the specific individuals that did this were not even "the house of David," nor were they "the inhabitants of Jerusalem." For the individuals that actually did this were the Romans, who are not even mentioned in this passage.

Thus, there is absolutely zero logical or scriptural basis for even trying to pretend that this means that the specific individuals that pierced Him will look in Him and mourn.

The meaning of this passage is clearly that, in a future day, "the house of David, and "the inhabitants of Jerusalem" will look on Him (Jesus) whom they (the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem) pierced, and in that day, they (the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem) will repent with bitter weeping.

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Ah riiiight. Scripture is absolutely EXPLICIT until it doesn't fit the dispensational mould. Then it isn't.

Judas was of the tribe of Judah of the House of David. He and they will unquestionably be present on the occasion described by Zechariah, as Zechariah EXPLICITLY states.

Your next explanation attempt will need to be more EXPLICIT.

jgr said:

Ah riiiight. Scripture is absolutely EXPLICIT until it doesn't fit the dispensational mould. Then it isn't.

Judas was of the tribe of Judah of the House of David. He and they will unquestionably be present on the occasion described by Zechariah, as Zechariah EXPLICITLY states.

Your next explanation attempt will need to be more EXPLICIT.

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Your next attempt should contain at least a particle of reason. While expanding on the phrase, "In that day," this passage says "I will pour on the house of David." It neither says, explicitly or otherwise, not even implies, that this is a reference to every member of "the house of David" that ever lived. It very explicitly says that He will pour this spirit on "the inhabitants of Jerusalem." This is an explicit reference to those living at that time. It further clearly says "All the LAND shall mourn," not all the dead shall mourn.

And your claim that Judas will unquestionably be present at that time is not only wholly unfounded in any scripture whatsoever, but is directly contradictory to Revelation 20:5.

Biblewriter said:

Your next attempt should contain at least a particle of reason. While expanding on the phrase, "In that day," this passage says "I will pour on the house of David." It neither says, explicitly or otherwise, not even implies, that this is a reference to every member of "the house of David" that ever lived. It very explicitly says that He will pour this spirit on "the inhabitants of Jerusalem." This is an explicit reference to those living at that time. It further clearly says "All the LAND shall mourn," not all the dead shall mourn.

And your claim that Judas will unquestionably be present at that time is not only wholly unfounded in any scripture whatsoever, but is directly contradictory to Revelation 20:5.

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Dead unbelieving Jews must be resurrected in order to afford some number of them the same opportunity to repent as is afforded some number of the living unbelieving Jews. God's judgment is fair, equitable, and impartial. All Jews are thus present in the land, for all the land to mourn.

And it is EXPLICITLY clear that the resurrected unbelieving Jews who repent include Judas.

This is, of course, the inexorably illogical and incorrect conclusion of the dispensational interpretation.

Revelation 20:5 refers to the first resurrection, that being salvation, which quickens us from death unto life (John 5:24; Ephesians 2:1) and makes us blessed and holy (Ephesians 1:3,4; Revelation 20:6). It certainly does preclude the possibility of Judas' appearance in heaven.

It also contributes to demonstrating the invalidity of the dispensational interpretation of Zechariah 12:10.

jgr said:

Dead unbelieving Jews must be resurrected in order to afford some number of them the same opportunity to repent as is afforded some number of the living unbelieving Jews. God's judgment is fair, equitable, and impartial. All Jews are thus present in the land, for all the land to mourn.

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In the case of Judas , he might have a chance , I see different interpretations on which he may or may not have repented as he did realize what he had done in his role of betraying Jesus , depending how the verse is interpreted- was he in genuine repentance or just feeling guilty of what he has done - like a person who is sorry they got caught .

But as far as anyone who has not accepted Christ before they die;

sorry there is no chance to repent after you die , that is why they say "now is the time for salvation"
The only reason those who died without having accepted salvation are resurrected is to face judgment at the Great White Throne Judgment - this is Only for those who have rejected Christ .
As long as you are alive you get as many chances you need to repent and change your ways of living; for after you die there are no more chances to repent.

As this is the second death , All those who will spend eternity with God will not be in the GWT judgment

Rev
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Heb 9:27King James Version (KJV)
27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

After you die whatever your status is at that time determines where you go , you have your entire life to make this choice and if you put it off and then die , there are no more chances , Gods fairness is that He died for your sins and you must make the decision to serve Him before you die , if it is not important enough for you to make the decision to live for Him before you die you have given up your chance to spend eternity with God

If you think otherwise - you thought wrong and misunderstand what the scriptures say

seventysevens said:

In the case of Judas , he might have a chance , I see different interpretations on which he may or may not have repented as he did realize what he had done in his role of betraying Jesus , depending how the verse is interpreted- was he in genuine repentance or just feeling guilty of what he has done - like a person who is sorry they got caught .

But as far as anyone who has not accepted Christ before they die;

sorry there is no chance to repent after you die , that is why they say "now is the time for salvation"
The only reason those who died without having accepted salvation are resurrected is to face judgment at the Great White Throne Judgment - this is Only for those who have rejected Christ .
As long as you are alive you get as many chances you need to repent and change your ways of living; for after you die there are no more chances to repent.

As this is the second death , All those who will spend eternity with God will not be in the GWT judgment

Rev
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Heb 9:27King James Version (KJV)
27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

After you die whatever your status is at that time determines where you go , you have your entire life to make this choice and if you put it off and then die , there are no more chances , Gods fairness is that He died for your sins and you must make the decision to serve Him before you die , if it is not important enough for you to make the decision to live for Him before you die you have given up your chance to spend eternity with God

If you think otherwise - you thought wrong and misunderstand what the scriptures say

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I largely concur. Judas has no chance, however; Christ identified him as the lost son of perdition in John 17:12.

BABerean2 said:

If that individual is not Christ and it is not David, there is only one option left.

That person would have to be antichrist.

And yet you are going to tell us this is what the scriptures "EXPLICITLY" say.

A future covenant that will go back to sacrifices for sin last week, and now this...

.

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There is only one reason that I point out that the scriptures explicitly say these things. And that is that they indeed EXPLICITLY say them. And they not only explicitly say them, but these explicit statements are couched in clear, plain, language. And all your mocking cannot change this INDISPUTABLE fact.

But your arguments are ceasing to even be rational. To say that a future ruler cannot be anyone other than Christ, David, or the Antichrist, displays an almost profound ignorance of scripture.

The scriptures name no less than five different end time rulers that will be here during the time of the Antichrist. And mentions others without naming them. And in their descriptions of the kingdom period to follow, during what we call "the millennium," they also mention rulers of various nations.

jgr said:

Dead unbelieving Jews must be resurrected in order to afford some number of them the same opportunity to repent as is afforded some number of the living unbelieving Jews. God's judgment is fair, equitable, and impartial. All Jews are thus present in the land, for all the land to mourn.

And it is EXPLICITLY clear that the resurrected unbelieving Jews who repent include Judas.

This is, of course, the inexorably illogical and incorrect conclusion of the dispensational interpretation.

Revelation 20:5 refers to the first resurrection, that being salvation, which quickens us from death unto life (John 5:24; Ephesians 2:1) and makes us blessed and holy (Ephesians 1:3,4; Revelation 20:6). It certainly does preclude the possibility of Judas' appearance in heaven.

It also contributes to demonstrating the invalidity of the dispensational interpretation of Zechariah 12:10.

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Your arguments have ceased to even be rational. There is not even one scripture, anywhere, that even hints at the idea that anyone will ever have a "second chance" to repent, after they have died. Indeed they say, and clearly say, the very opposite.

So now you are stating doctrines that you cannot even pretend to demonstrate from scripture, and pretending that the scriptures explicitly teach them.

BABerean2 said:

I am not talking about a time period before the Second Coming of Christ.
I am talking about after.

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In the period shortly before the coming of Christ. The scriptures clearly describe end time leaders in Russia, Rome, Judea, Assyria, and Egypt, plus mentioning in a general way leaders from various other nations, under the two designations of "the kings of the east," and "the kings of the earth, and of the whole world."

But the scriptures in Ezekiel, which were the ones we were discussing, are about the time after the second coming of Christ, not before.

David very clearly does not figure either literally or figuratively, before the coming of Christ. And since the Antichrist will be destroyed at that coming, he cannot figure at any time after that period.

So your argument that if the person described in Ezekiel were neither Christ nor David, he would have to be the Antichrist, is nothing but total confusion.

BABerean2 said:

Total confusion is the claim that God will one day bring in another covenant with animal sacrifices for sin...


It is also the claim that God will have two separate peoples and plans, based on genealogy.

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It is nothing short of a willful attempt to deceive, to try to connect the heretical teachings of John Hagee to Dispensatinalism in general, or to me.

Neither myself nor any Dispensational teacher I know, other than John Hagee, who is not a REAL Didsensationalist, has ever taught that ANYONE will EVER be able to come to salvation without a true faith in the one and only sacrifice Jesus made on the cross for our sins.

But two separate sets of promises were clearly and explicitly made to Old Testament (Israelite) saints and to New Testament (Christian) saints. When you deny this, you are denying scripture that is both clearly and explicitly stated.

What you are refusing to admit, is that the nation of Israel, even as it was warned that it would be totally destroyed, was promised that it would eventually be restored, both to its ancient homeland and to its God.

But a nation does not have an eternal soul. Those belong only to individuals, not to groups. And as no one can ever receive eternal salvation without a personal faith in the blood of Jesus, a nation cannot do this. Only individuals within a nation can.

The heavenly rewards promised to those who trust in Christ, apply equally to all individuals of all nations. But the earthly promises made to Israel, to Judah, to the twelve tribes of Israel separately, to the sons of Zadok, and to the families of the houses of David, Nathan, Levi, and Shimei, apply only to the physical descendants of these specific families. And they will ALL, EVERY ONE OF THEM, be most certainly kept. Otherwise, God, who made these promises, would be a liar.