Amillenial Baptists?

Hammster

Psalm 144:1
Christian Forums Staff
Site Advisor
Supporter
Apr 5, 2007
140,012
25,178
55
New Jerusalem
Visit site
✟1,718,526.00
Country
United States
Faith
Reformed
Marital Status
Married
It seems that modern Baptists are, by default, Premil Dispensationalists.
I was. Until I realized that the thousand year reign as being literal just made no sense. It's much more reasonable to understand that 1000 is used in scripture to indicate a large number (He owns the cattle on a thousand hills). And I believe Him when Ge said that the Kingdom of God is here, not some future kingdom.
 
  • Like
Reactions: JM
Upvote 0

Bluelion

Peace and Love
Oct 6, 2013
4,341
313
47
Pa
✟6,506.00
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
I would also like to point out Jesus said the kingdom of God is at hand, because God is literally the Kingdom of Heaven. So when Jesus said Heaven is Here, He meant they were standing in front of Heaven or God. I feel sorry for those who think this world is any thing close to heaven. For one God's will is always done in Heaven, yet we know God's will is not always done in this place, in fact many times it is not done. There is also the Lords prayer which Jesus said "your will be done on earth as in Heaven" If earth is heaven why did Jesus ask for the Fathers will be done on earth? Just where is earth any way, and how do you explain evil still here and all the sin that Goes on. For some people this is heaven and all they will every see, but that is sad in such a evil world this is their heaven. I think it shows those who do not long for Heaven but think they are already there just how evil man could be. You must also get into the promises of God which is in Heaven there is no tears nor suffering, or death, yet people suffer, and cry, and die here. They can not even say that God's children do not suffer and they are in heaven and the rest hell, because we all know God's children suffer the most in this world. Then also the question is why did God say satan rules this world if Jesus is in fact ruling the world, again why is satan called god of this system of things. If Jesus rule then why is he sharing it with satan. I personally think the stance is a false doctrine in the church, but that is for elders to decide not me. But what is clear is once again this is a small group of people and maybe a few churches.
 
Upvote 0

Bluelion

Peace and Love
Oct 6, 2013
4,341
313
47
Pa
✟6,506.00
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
In fact I have found this article which calls this view a hersey in the church.

It states:
In the first 3 centuries of the Christian era there were a number of heresies that grew up - mostly having to do with the person and divinity of our Lord Jesus Christ. These heresies so took up the time and energy of the early church fathers and apologists that it was hardly noticed that yet another heresy had taken root in Christendom, and this heresy is calledAmillennialism.

http://www.apostasynow.com/topics/mill/amill.html


some highlights

The Greek word for thousand in Revelation 20 is "chilioi", and although the Amillennialist wants to insist that this word is purely symbolic and not literal, their willful error is manifest by the fact that this same word is translated to thousand in the same book of the Bible; where to make it mean an indefinite period of time is ridiculous.

(Rev 11:3 KJV) And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand (chilioi) two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

To make a thousand (chilioi) in this verse (and in Rev. 12:6) mean an indefinite period, is to make these prophecies ludicrous. If it was an indefinite period, what is the point of adding another "two hundred and threescore days" to it?

The fact is that this period of 1000 years is reiterated 6 times in chapter 20 of Revelation, and to make this into some vague period lasting over 2000 years does violence to the Scriptures in a way that cannot be ignored or tolerated.

(Mat 6:10 KJV) Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.
Why, pray tell, would we be instructed to pray, "Thy kingdom come," if the kingdom is already here and fulfilled? And why would we be instructed to pray, "Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven," if His will is ALREADY being done on earth as it is in heaven? Of course God is ultimately sovereign over the affairs of this world, but He has called this age,MAN'S DAY (1 Cor 4:3). Hence, except for the sake of the saints, he does not generally openly interfere: He is presently allowing man to have his day - "that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God" (Rom 3:19).


Please check out the link to the article it rebuts with Biblical proof everything they say.
 
Upvote 0

JM

Coram Deo.
Supporter
Jun 26, 2004
17,337
3,604
Canada
✟738,496.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Married
Politics
CA-Others
A couple of links and resources contra Dispensationalism:

Dispensationalism: an Overview and Critique, A Peculiar Hermeneutic With Errors = An excellent, but short, overview by Pastor Al Martin. I like how Martin compares differing schools of Dispensationalism to different flavours of mustard carefully avoiding the term ‘hyper.’

Covenant Theology vs. Dispensationalism = More specificially, Particular Baptist CT as expressed in the second London Baptist Confession of 1689. I’ve watched this video a few times and recommend it.

A Study of Dispensationalism by A. W. Pink = I had my doubts about Dispensationalism long before I gave up the system for good and Pink’s work was helpful in pointing out some of the errors of this hermeneutic.

Francisco Ribera (one / two) = Until the 1800’s Protestantism identified the pope or the office of the pope of Rome as antichrist. Futurism was a suggested way to remove suspicion of the papacy as antichrist, to a yet to come, future figure. Although Dispensationalism has no connection with the Jesuits it is a school of futurism.

jm
 
Upvote 0

JM

Coram Deo.
Supporter
Jun 26, 2004
17,337
3,604
Canada
✟738,496.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Married
Politics
CA-Others
Plenty of confusion exists when it comes to understanding the book of Revelation so I thought I would pull a few helpful notes to illustrate that it needn’t be. Take for example the unfortunate misunderstanding of the use of “candlestick” in Revelation 11. The popular view would have you believe that two physical witnesses will be in Jerusalem at some future time, candidates most often mentioned for the position are Elijah and Enoch. Instead of injecting our own opinion into the Revelation 11 let us retreat to scripture and allow scripture to speak for itself:

The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches. (Rev 1:12-20)

If the candlesticks in Revelation 1 are a symbol of the churches why would they be limited to two physical men in Revelation 11? I’m all for furthering our theological understanding with modern works, and it is the job of the church to engage society in every generation, but we should not forget the work already completed for us.

Some helpful notes on the Candlesticks from the People’s New Testament Commentary by Barton Johnson.

Candlestick – A symbol of a church, which should be a light in the world. The seven golden candlesticks are the seven churches. A symbol of any light-giving agency.

I saw seven golden candlesticks. The first things seen when he turned to see whence the voice came were the seven golden candlesticks, which symbolized the churches (Rev_1:20).

The mystery of the seven stars. The Lord himself at once explains what the seven stars and seven candlesticks symbolize. The seven candlesticks represent the churches, or organizations appointed to “let their light shine” and become “the light of the world.”

And the seven stars are the angels of the churches. These were, I think, the evangelists of the churches.

Now back to my quesiton, if the candlesticks in Revelation 1 are a symbol of the churches why would they be limited to two physical men in Revelation 11? Simply, they cannot be limited to a two individuals but represent the witness of the church during the 1260 days time period.

And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth. These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth. (Rev 11:3-4)

Revelation 11 makes much more sense if it represents the witness of the church rather than two individual witnesses as Barton Johnson notes;

The olive tree was the source of the oil used to provide for the candlesticks. The candlesticks, burning the oil, gave forth light. The symbols imply that during this period of 1260 days God shall have two agencies, bearing divine witness, which shall give forth light to men. These agencies shall be filled and sustained by the Spirit.

I pray this was helpful.

jm
 
Upvote 0

JM

Coram Deo.
Supporter
Jun 26, 2004
17,337
3,604
Canada
✟738,496.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Married
Politics
CA-Others
“Jewish fables (literally, myths) are no new thing. Paul has plainly warned the household of faith not to give heed thereto. He has not given us a list of those grievous heresies; but it is well known that the one that was most fondly cherished, and that constituted the gravest menace to the truth of the gospel, was the notion that the leading purpose of the mission of the coming Messiah would be the reconstitution of the Jewish nation and its elevation to the highest pinnacle of earthly dominion and glory; for that fatuous doctrine was the cornerstone of orthodox Judaism in Paul’s day; and because of his sturdy opposition to it he was persecuted, his enemies plotted to take his life, and he was sent a prisoner to Rome. No wonder that, during the term of his imprisonment there, he wrote to Titus his plain-spoken warning against “Jewish fables.”

Such being the case, we question if there be anything in all the long history of Christianity that is more difficult to account for than the fact that that particular fable, concerning the purpose of Christ’s mission to the Jewish people, has become the central feature of a system of doctrine which, in this 20th century of our era, has found numerous and zealous advocates amongst orthodox Christians. In view of this extraordinary phenomenon, it surely behooves those who take the Holy Scriptures for their guide and instructor in all matters of faith and doctrine, to search them with the utmost care “whether these things be so.” This present volume is the result of a painstaking investigation of that important question.” – Philip Mauro
 
Upvote 0

DawnStar

Pragmatist
Nov 27, 2014
1,165
817
✟30,314.00
Faith
Unitarian
Marital Status
Private
This is why we have Schools, because the average person reading their Bible does not know how to properly interpret the Bible.

CwJ5-11-16_zpstmxskier.jpg
 
Upvote 0

JM

Coram Deo.
Supporter
Jun 26, 2004
17,337
3,604
Canada
✟738,496.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Married
Politics
CA-Others
DawnStar is correct.

Glory Only in the Lord

1 Cor. 126 For you see your calling, brethren, that not many wise according to the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called. 27 But God has chosen the foolish things of the world to put to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to put to shame the things which are mighty; 28 and the base things of the world and the things which are despised God has chosen, and the things which are not, to bring to nothing the things that are, 29 that no flesh should glory in His presence. 30 But of Him you are in Christ Jesus, who became for us wisdom from God—and righteousness and sanctification and redemption— 31 that, as it is written, “He who glories, let him glory in the Lord.”
 
  • Like
Reactions: Hammster
Upvote 0

Goodbook

Reading the Bible
Jan 22, 2011
22,090
5,106
New Zealand
Visit site
✟78,865.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
In Relationship
I foind the christadephians, a christian sect, are the ones who really take this 1000 years literally. A workmate was one, and he tried to explain to me, but I didnt really swallow all his doctrine, because it just seemed stretching a bit to believe after we born again we going to live for a thousand years instead of for eternity like jesus promised. Well a thousand years could seem like an eternity, for some people I suppose.

Maybe ask God what he really means.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Sola1517

Saint-in-Progress (Looking for a Church)
Jun 27, 2016
574
200
29
Don't ask
✟20,250.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Democrat
You can see a quick outline of the three major positions here : Timeline Animation

I've recently accepted or admitted the Amillennialism. It was a difficult journey considering the stigma many Baptists attach to the Amil position but I had been moving in toward Amil since I shed Dispensationalism.

A quote below from : Fide-O Blog

Dr. John Walvoord, a dispensational premillennialist, admitted, “Reformed eschatology has been predominantly amillennial. Most if not all of the leaders of the Protestant Reformation were amillennial in their eschatology, following the teachings of Augustine.” (Bibliotheca Sacra, Jan.-Mar., 1951)

Just to name a few Amillenarians and a couple of the many like-minded Postmillers:

Jay Adams
Oswald Allis
Augustine of Hippo
Richard Barcellos
Herman Bavinck
G. K. Beale
Louis Berkhof
G. C. Berkouwer
James P. Boyce
John Calvin
B. H. Carroll
Everett I Carver
Adam Clark
William Cox
John L. Dagg
Mark Dever
J. Ligon Duncan III
David Engelsma
Eusebius of Caesarea
Sinclair Ferguson
John Frame
Richard Gaffin, Jr.
William Grier
Henry Halley
Floyd Hamilton
Hank Hanegraaff
William Hendriksen
Charles Hill
Herschel Hobbs
Anthony Hoekema
Michael Horton
Lee Irons
Dennis Johnson
Martyn Lloyd-Jones
Tim Keller
Simon Kistemaker
Meredith Kline
Abraham Kuyper
Martin Luther
C. J. Mahaney
William Masselink
Phillip Mauro
Edward McDowell
Melancthon
Leon Morris
Edgar Mullins
George L. Murray
Iain Murray
John Murray
J. I. Packer
Albertus Pieters
A. W. Pink
Vern S. Poythress
Richard Pratt
Robert S. Rayburn
Herman Ridderbos
Kim Riddlebarger
Jason E. Robertson
O. Palmer Robertson
William Rutgers
L. R. Shelton
Sam Storms
Robert Strimple
Augustus H. Strong
Ray Summers
Cornelius Van Til
Cornelis Venema
Geerhardus Vos
Samuel Waldron
Bruce Waltke
B. B. Warfield
James White
Knox White
Martin Wyngaarden
E. J. Young
Huldrych Zwingli

Council of Ephesus, 431
Confession of the Evangelical Free Church of Geneva, 1848
The Westminster Confession of Faith, 1647
The London Baptist Confession, 1689
The New Hampshire Baptist Confession, 1833
Confession of the Free-Will Baptist, 1834
The Augsburg Confession
Yeah, David Platt is also one from what I hear. Or I might have misheard.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums