Is obeying the commandments of Christ a requirement for salvation?

Neostarwcc · Dec 9, 2017

This question came to me from another thread where I asked what Jesus meant when he said "If you love me you will keep my commandments" in John 14:15. This got me to thinking "If obeying God's commandments proves our love for him then is obeying God's commandments a requirement for salvation?" Ephesians 2:8-9 says:

"For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God not by works, so that no one can boast."

The bible is clear by this verse and many others like it like John 3:16 and John 6:39-40. We ARE saved by grace THROUGH faith in Jesus's death,burial, and resurrection. But there were a few statements by Jesus that are alarming to say the least. For instance, when Jesus said in Matthew 6:15 "But if you do not forgive others their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins." This statement can be alarming because to forgive others is a difficult task to do. Especially if somebody murdered your child, you would be commanded by God to forgive that person. And maybe by Jesus's statement in Matthew 6:15 it means that if we do not forgive others, we cannot and will not be saved.

But what about keeping the commandments of Christ? Obedience must play some role in our salvation because, if we do not obey the gospel there is no way we can be saved. So obviously, that much obedience IS required for salvation. But, I'm stumped as to what other obedience is required for salvation.

Obviously, a person who really loved God and truly wished to be saved would not take any chances and would want to keep Christ's every word. But can people who do not keep Christ's every word be saved? Is this optional? Will we be rewarded in the next life for keeping God's laws?

“Paisios” · Dec 9, 2017

mmbattlestar said:
This question came to me from another thread where I asked what Jesus meant when he said "If you love me you will keep my commandments" in John 14:15. This got me to thinking "If obeying God's commandments proves our love for him then is obeying God's commandments a requirement for salvation?" Ephesians 2:8-9 says:

"For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God not by works, so that no one can boast."

The bible is clear by this verse and many others like it like John 3:16 and John 6:39-40. We ARE saved by grace THROUGH faith in Jesus's death,burial, and resurrection. But there were a few statements by Jesus that are alarming to say the least. For instance, when Jesus said in Matthew 6:15 "But if you do not forgive others their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins." This statement can be alarming because to forgive others is a difficult task to do. Especially if somebody murdered your child, you would be commanded by God to forgive that person. And maybe by Jesus's statement in Matthew 6:15 it means that if we do not forgive others, we cannot and will not be saved.

But what about keeping the commandments of Christ? Obedience must play some role in our salvation because, if we do not obey the gospel there is no way we can be saved. So obviously, that much obedience IS required for salvation. But, I'm stumped as to what other obedience is required for salvation.

Obviously, a person who really loved God and truly wished to be saved would not take any chances and would want to keep Christ's every word. But can people who do not keep Christ's every word be saved? Is this optional? Will we be rewarded in the next life for keeping God's laws?

“Only the believing obey, only the obedient believe” - Dietrich Bonhoeffer

I’ve always understood that the evidence of our belief at its core IS obedience. That is, one cannot separate belief and obedience. They are two sides of the same coin.

Thus it is meaningless to talk about salvation by belief without obedience (not that we can do either perfectly), but it is NOT a matter of doing enough good works to rack up enough points to earn our way into Heaven. Rather, one cannot say say one believes if he or she isn’t also in obedience.

(But what do I know? As always, I stand open to correction...)

Neostarwcc · Dec 9, 2017

Shoetoyou said:
“Only the believing obey, only the obedient believe” - Dietrich Bonhoeffer

I’ve always understood that the evidence of our belief at its core IS obedience. That is, one cannot separate belief and obedience. They are two sides of the same coin.

Thus it is meaningless to talk about salvation by belief without obedience (not that we can do either perfectly), but it is NOT a matter of doing enough good works to rack up enough points to earn our way into Heaven. Rather, one cannot say say one believes if he or she isn’t also in obedience.

(But what do I know? As always, I stand open to correction...)

Well Jesus kind of shocked the world when he said that works were not required for salvation and that many God obeying people will eventually end up going to hell. Paul also said that nobody will be justified based on the law. And James said those who keep the law yet offend at one point are guilty of all. So nobody can perfectly keep the law. The only person who was able to do so was Jesus himself. But is parts of the law required for salvation? Is keeping Jesus's words required for salvation? Jesus didn't really say. All he said was that those who believe in him will go to heaven and will never die.

salt-n-light · Dec 9, 2017

mmbattlestar said:
This question came to me from another thread where I asked what Jesus meant when he said "If you love me you will keep my commandments" in John 14:15. This got me to thinking "If obeying God's commandments proves our love for him then is obeying God's commandments a requirement for salvation?" Ephesians 2:8-9 says:

"For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God not by works, so that no one can boast."

The bible is clear by this verse and many others like it like John 3:16 and John 6:39-40. We ARE saved by grace THROUGH faith in Jesus's death,burial, and resurrection. But there were a few statements by Jesus that are alarming to say the least. For instance, when Jesus said in Matthew 6:15 "But if you do not forgive others their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins." This statement can be alarming because to forgive others is a difficult task to do. Especially if somebody murdered your child, you would be commanded by God to forgive that person. And maybe by Jesus's statement in Matthew 6:15 it means that if we do not forgive others, we cannot and will not be saved.

But what about keeping the commandments of Christ? Obedience must play some role in our salvation because, if we do not obey the gospel there is no way we can be saved. So obviously, that much obedience IS required for salvation. But, I'm stumped as to what other obedience is required for salvation.

Obviously, a person who really loved God and truly wished to be saved would not take any chances and would want to keep Christ's every word. But can people who do not keep Christ's every word be saved? Is this optional? Will we be rewarded in the next life for keeping God's laws?

Some people don't realizing that accepting salvation is an actual act of obedience to God, because you are accepting Jesus as your Lord and Savior, you are showing love for God.The argument can be made though then is not whether or not you can lose it if you do fall in sin, but whether or not you've actually accepted salvation in the first place if you've rejected God. This is why its important to be born-again, or have a new identity in Christ. No one born-again, if we are taking the analogy of how birth works, would be able to go then un-born theirselves and reverse theirselves to what they once where, like a baby who came out of a mother's womb and just shoving the baby back into the womb, and try be a fetus lol. So it would be safe to say that they were never born-again to begin with. But if they truly accept it, and love God, they are in obedience, and salvation is theirs.

Like with any gift, there's no take backs, you don't earn a gift nor do you have to do anything to secure having it, its not a loan, God don't ask for salvation back, but its just a matter of whether or not you actually received it, or not receive it. Once you have the gift, its yours. There's times where you can be ungrateful, and that's where that fear of whether or not you can lose it, but you still have the gift regardless and you can always get to that place of gratefulness as long as you are alive. Its only if you reject it, that's where you're in danger zone, because you'll never know if that would be the last time you're able to revisit it, anything can happen. Salvation is free, but you can't receive it as a dead man.

So the second part is will you be rewarded in the next life for keeping God's laws. I would say this, you not any closer to heaven for being more obedient, but you're damning yourself when you don't keep them. There's consequences to every action.The thief on the cross is going to the same paradise Moses is going to, but then also the wisest man Solomon is going to the same damnable place that Judas is going. So its not based on trying to keep God's law on your own merit. But because you are walking in salvation, with fear of God and understanding of His Word, the fruits of that will already be in alignment with God's law, you wouldn't have to try to be peaceful and loving, that will come with the territory

SkyWriting · Dec 9, 2017

mmbattlestar said:
This question came to me from another thread where I asked what Jesus meant when he said "If you love me you will keep my commandments" in John 14:15. This got me to thinking "If obeying God's commandments proves our love for him then is obeying God's commandments a requirement for salvation?"

Yes, being good to others is a gift for you.
The only requirement for salvation is that
you accept the free gift.

The only sin that leads to death is purposely
rejecting and by this action blaspheming
the Holy Spirit in who speaks to every person.

James 2:8
If you really fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself,” you are doing well.

Proverbs 3:29
Do not plan evil against your neighbor, who dwells trustingly beside you.

Mark 12:31
The second is this: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no other commandment greater than these.”

Romans 15:2
Let each of us please his neighbor for his good, to build him up.

Proverbs 25:17-18
Let your foot be seldom in your neighbor's house, lest he have his fill of you and hate you. A man who bears false witness against his neighbor is like a war club, or a sword, or a sharp arrow.

Galatians 5:14
For the whole law is fulfilled in one word: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”

Matthew 7:12
“So whatever you wish that others would do to you, do also to them, for this is the Law and the Prophets.

Luke 10:27
And he answered, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind, and your neighbor as yourself.”

Luke 6:31
And as you wish that others would do to you, do so to them.

Original Happy Camper · Dec 9, 2017

EVE disobayed
So did Adam

2Timothy2:15 · Dec 9, 2017

mmbattlestar said:
This question came to me from another thread where I asked what Jesus meant when he said "If you love me you will keep my commandments" in John 14:15. This got me to thinking "If obeying God's commandments proves our love for him then is obeying God's commandments a requirement for salvation?" Ephesians 2:8-9 says:

"For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God not by works, so that no one can boast."

The bible is clear by this verse and many others like it like John 3:16 and John 6:39-40. We ARE saved by grace THROUGH faith in Jesus's death,burial, and resurrection. But there were a few statements by Jesus that are alarming to say the least. For instance, when Jesus said in Matthew 6:15 "But if you do not forgive others their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins." This statement can be alarming because to forgive others is a difficult task to do. Especially if somebody murdered your child, you would be commanded by God to forgive that person. And maybe by Jesus's statement in Matthew 6:15 it means that if we do not forgive others, we cannot and will not be saved.

But what about keeping the commandments of Christ? Obedience must play some role in our salvation because, if we do not obey the gospel there is no way we can be saved. So obviously, that much obedience IS required for salvation. But, I'm stumped as to what other obedience is required for salvation.

Obviously, a person who really loved God and truly wished to be saved would not take any chances and would want to keep Christ's every word. But can people who do not keep Christ's every word be saved? Is this optional? Will we be rewarded in the next life for keeping God's laws?

This is where reading in context is important. The Greek word for commandments is not equal to the mosiac law as many will tell you. What commandments did Jesus issue. Well we should read the scripture because he is not telling us to keep Torah law.

What commandments did Jesus give us? | Christian Apologetics & Research Ministry

Neostarwcc · Dec 9, 2017

Original Happy Camper said:
EVE disobayed
So did Adam

That's a very good point. That's kind of how sin entered the world and got all of us into this mess in the first place. They're saved though or at least, I'd like to think that they are.

Neostarwcc · Dec 9, 2017

2Timothy2:15 said:
This is where reading in context is important. The Greek word for commandments is not equal to the mosiac law as many will tell you. What commandments did Jesus issue. Well we should read the scripture because he is not telling us to keep Torah law.

What commandments did Jesus give us? | Christian Apologetics & Research Ministry

Yes, Jesus was talking about his commandments throughout the four gospels and not the ten commandments. I agree.

Original Happy Camper · Dec 9, 2017

2Timothy2:15 said:
What commandments did Jesus issue.

Who wrote the ten commandments with his finger?

Neostarwcc · Dec 9, 2017

Original Happy Camper said:
Who wrote the ten commandments with his finger?

Jesus.

Oldmantook · Dec 9, 2017

Is obedience required for salvation? That's a very easy question to answer. Just ask yourself this question. Would you still be saved if you disobeyed God's Word and took the mark of the beast?

Original Happy Camper · Dec 9, 2017

John 14:9
Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?

mmbattlestar said:
Jesus.

Kenny'sID · Dec 9, 2017

You're out in your sailboat, halfway to, say, Hawaii, and some guy comes swimming by yelling his boat sank, save me!, you, by grace pull him aboard. He didn't earn that, and you saved him strictly by grace. At that moment he is saved.

Then during the remaining weeks of the trip, the guy starts breaking all your rules as captain of the boat, steals from others, lies about it, doesn't do his share of the work..whatever.

While many might think it, but wouldn't throw him overboard, he's definitely out of there as soon as you get to shore. On the other hand we all know how strict God is, he will toss the Guy to his death just as he warned in the scripture I'll post below concerning bad behavior.

But God is also fair, he's given us all plenty of time and those clear, strict warnings straight from his word, as in the sheep and the goats and the several lists of damnable sins that I'll post. They are strict warnings that people will argue against because they read into a simple concept, that saved by grace/faith means we are saved forever no matter what we do, when scripture never says that, but far more than suggests the contrary.

Those read a certain way into the bible, not out of it, and listen to false teachings because that is what they choose to believe...they go so far as to seek out the easy way..."Yeah man, that's the religion I like!". While the reality is, as the mentioned, and others scriptures in the Bible are more than clear about...yes, we can do nothing to earn salvation, however we *can* do or not do enough to lose it...just as many of the plants did in the Parable of the sower.

The following scripture completely contradicts how some choose to understand "saved by grace" and are some more of that "alarming" scripture the OP mentioned...scripture that we all need to heed...or else.

And beware, we all know who is behind those who will try to confuse the clearly written.

1 Cor 6:9-10 Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor homosexual offenders, nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. And that is what some of you were.

Gal 5:19-21 The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Eph 5:3-6 But among you there must not be even a hint of sexual immorality, or of any kind of impurity, or of greed, because these are improper for God’s holy people. Nor should there be obscenity, foolish talk or coarse joking, which are out of place, but rather thanksgiving. For of this you can be sure: No sexually immoral, impure or greedy person—such a person is an idolater—has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things God’s wrath comes on those who are disobedient. Therefore do not be partners with them.

Rev. 22:12-16 “Look, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to each person according to what they have done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End. “Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city. Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood. “I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star.”

Matt 25:41-46 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’ “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’ “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’ “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

And finally just a general warning from the Lord:

John 5:28-29 “Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned. By myself I can do nothing; I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who sent me.

2Timothy2:15 · Dec 9, 2017

Original Happy Camper said:
Who wrote the ten commandments with his finger?

True, the ten "commandments" are not the same as the mosaic law and that was my point. But Jesus also gave us the heart of the commandments. This is why he said if you hate your brother you have already committed murder in your heart. It is a deeper level and the only way we can get to that root is through the Holy Spirit. I was addressing those who claim we are to uphold mosaic law. This is not what Jesus was telling us.

yeshuaslavejeff · Dec 9, 2017

2Timothy2:15 said:
I was addressing those who claim we are to uphold mosaic law. This is not what Jesus was telling us.

This is a point of misunderstanding amongst many here.
Jesus said to those opposed to Him: if you really believed Moses, you would believe Me , because he spoke of Me.
And : if you reject the messengers of Yahweh, you reject Me;
and: if you reject My Word, you reject Me;
and: the TORAH will not change even to the end of the world...
and: all sin is lawlessness....
and so on, as likely you have heard .

Who here (on the forum) said we are to uphold mosaic law ? What did they mean by mosaic law ? Did they say anyone could be saved by obeying the law (mosaic or otherwise) ?

FireDragon76 · Dec 9, 2017

Jesus is speaking here of loving one another, not obeying all of God's commandments. John is a self contained book, and it's important to keep it in that context.

It's absolutely true we are saved by faith alone. But it is a faith working through love.

Shoetoyou said:
“Only the believing obey, only the obedient believe” - Dietrich Bonhoeffer

We must be careful we don't take Bonhoeffer out of his historical context, an era when many in his national church simply ignored much of the Bible and replaced it with nationalist mythology. At heart Bonhoeffer was still Lutheran. The works to be done in his mind was serving our neighbor, being a person "for others", as he put it.

Kenny'sID said:
You're out in your sailboat, halfway to, say, Hawaii, and some guy comes swimming by yelling his boat sank, save me!, you, by grace pull him aboard. He didn't earn that, and you saved him strictly by grace. At that moment he is saved.

Then on the remaining weeks of the trip, the guy starts breaking all your rules as captain of the boat, steals from others, lies about it, doesn't do his share of the work..whatever.

While many might think it, but wouldn't throw him overboard, he's definitely out of there as soon as you get to shore. On the other hand we all know how strict God is, he will toss the Guy to his death just as he warned in the scripture I'll post below concerning bad behavior.

But God is also fair, he's given us all plenty of time and those clear, strict warnings straight from his word, as in the sheep and the goats and the several lists of damnable sins that I'll post. They are strict warnings that people will argue against because they read into a simple concept, that saved by grace/faith means we are saved forever no matter what we do, when scripture never says that, but far more than suggests the contrary.

Those read a certain way into the bible, not out of it, and listen to false teachings because that is what they choose to believe...they go so far as to seek out the easy way..."Yeah man, that's the religion I like!". While the reality is, as the mentioned, and others scriptures in the Bible are more than clear about...yes, we can do nothing to earn salvation, however we *can* do or not do enough to lose it...just as many of the plants did in the Parable of the sower.

The following scripture completely contradicts how some choose to understand "saved by grace" and are some more of that "alarming" scripture the OP mentioned...scripture that we all need to heed...or else.

And beware, we all know who is behind those who will try to confuse the clearly written.

1 Cor 6:9-10 Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor homosexual offenders, nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. And that is what some of you were.

Gal 5:19-21 The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Eph 5:3-6 But among you there must not be even a hint of sexual immorality, or of any kind of impurity, or of greed, because these are improper for God’s holy people. Nor should there be obscenity, foolish talk or coarse joking, which are out of place, but rather thanksgiving. For of this you can be sure: No sexually immoral, impure or greedy person—such a person is an idolater—has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things God’s wrath comes on those who are disobedient. Therefore do not be partners with them.

Rev. 22:12-16 “Look, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to each person according to what they have done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End. “Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city. Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood. “I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star.”

Matt 25:41-46 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’ “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’ “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’ “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

And finally just a general warning from the Lord:

John 5:28-29 “Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned. By myself I can do nothing; I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who sent me.

I’ve always understood that the evidence of our belief at its core IS obedience. That is, one cannot separate belief and obedience. They are two sides of the same coin.

Thus it is meaningless to talk about salvation by belief without obedience (not that we can do either perfectly), but it is NOT a matter of doing enough good works to rack up enough points to earn our way into Heaven. Rather, one cannot say say one believes if he or she isn’t also in obedience.

(But what do I know? As always, I stand open to correction...)

Our salvation is in no way analogous to a man in water swimming, and then being rescued, getting on a boat, then being tossed off because he broke a few rules. It's the difference between life and death, not naughty and nice. The theory you are promoting is more like a covenantal nomism, which denies justification by faith alone.

yeshuaslavejeff · Dec 9, 2017

Original Happy Camper said:
Who wrote the ten commandments with his finger?

And how often did He Himself EVER write anything ?
twice on rock, (I think),
and once on a wall, (I think),
and in perfect harmony with all of TORAH, He writes TORAH on our hearts (He says).
Not everyone wants this, and He never coerces anyone - free will requires they joyously and willingly turn to Him !

expos4ever · Dec 9, 2017

I think Ephesians 2:8-9 is one of the damagingly misread texts in Scripture. It is NOT a denial of the salvific necessity of good works, it is a way of denying that salvation is only for JEWS. This is crystal clear from verse 11 and following.

Paul is referring to the works of the Law of Moses, not "good" works.

Original Happy Camper · Dec 9, 2017

Matt 4
4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

This verse does not say for the Jews only but MAN.
There were three sets of laws spoken by the LORD that Moses wrote down
Dietary
Civil
Sanctuary (form of worship that pointed forward to Jesus Christ and he brought it to an end when he died on the cross as the Lamb of GOD.)
Jesus wrote the Ten Commandments with his own finger.

Thus if Matt 4:4 is a valid statement (which it is) from Jesus Christ then the Dietary, Civil and Moral (10 commandments) are still in effect today.

Are you all obaying the words of Jesus Christ?

Is obeying the commandments of Christ a requirement for salvation?

We are saved purely by the work and grace of God.

Sinner

We are saved purely by the work and grace of God.

Well-Known Member

The Librarian

One of GODS Children I am a historicist

Well-Known Member

We are saved purely by the work and grace of God.

We are saved purely by the work and grace of God.

One of GODS Children I am a historicist

We are saved purely by the work and grace of God.

Well-Known Member

One of GODS Children I am a historicist

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

Well-Known Member

simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

Well-Known Member

One of GODS Children I am a historicist

Similar threads