Different Interpretations Of "The Woman's Desire For Her Husband" Genesis 3:16

Endeavourer said:

Convincing women to endure abusive and adulterous marriages as God's will for them is one of John Piper's pet issues.

He was part of a Council on Biblical Manhood and Womanhood, has been a pastor for decades during which he advocated such victims come to him instead of the authorities (and therefore has likely seen many such cases) and has authored a number of books on the topic, one being "This Momentary Marriage" which advocates no divorce under any circumstance, not even for adultery, abandonment or abuse.

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I didn't know this. Again, I've heard/read excerpts of his teachings. And i've heard Paul Washer as well as Voddie Baucham refer to him.

I have heard Voddie Baucham and Paul Washer on the subject of marriage. Hearing them on marriage and on Biblical womanhood, I've never heard either of them address physical abuse, let alone advocate it. If they have, I certainly would not agree with them. I don't agree with a woman feeling like she has to stay in a physically abusive or adulterous marriage, though I believe in reconciliation if an adulterer is repentant. I neither tell women to stay nor to go. And I've been asked from time to time over the years what they should do. I have never told anybody to divorce. I have told them they have a choice as pointed out in the Word and that God gives them that freedom for refuge. I've also promoted total humiliating exposure of an abuser and partial exposure of an adulterer because of the disarming impact of exposure as referenced in both Matthew 18 and 1 Corinthians 5. I can only give any abused person (or betrayed) the Word on that and let them make their own decision but not before giving them resources for retreat/law enforcement. If i tell people what I personally think they should do in an abusive situation, they could end up in jail for assault. (I still have to grow in that area and can't withhold from John Piper the grace I have to see my own self in.)

In a situation where a woman is being pushed and rough-handled, that's very close to home for me. My husband did that off and on to me in the first decade of our marriage until I put up my dukes. And when he knew I was willing to risk being beaten if it meant I would pull myself up off the floor with one of his eyeballs securely in the palm of my hand, he stopped that madness. That was back in the 90's. (I realize I can't coach anybody to be like that. Where the Word is concerned, I'm still learning and willing to submit to God where I'm wrong or right. When He says, "Let God be true and every man a liar," I am willing to place myself in that passage because I want to always stand corrected about the Word. That said, I have to see every preacher and everybody else in that light as well.

And i agree with you, John Piper and anybody else will be held accountable for everything said/done in disobedience and partaking in somebody else's disobedience, as we all will. Many of us are being held accountable right here on earth (Hebrews 13). I certainly am.

But, for his decision to enable marital abuse, no, I wouldn't take refuge behind John Piper and probably neither my own pastor just as I wouldn't stand behind a wall with holes for refuge from shots being fired. I do not sympathize with him just because I believe he's well-meaning. I believe that referring abused women to church for refuge and intervention is naive considering the passive position many tend to take - like John Piper shows himself as being passive in the interview. But I referred to him as "Brother" because that is what he is. I'm not sympathizing with him by saying I believe he loves God. Why? Because when I've been at my worst as a believer, I really do love God, Endeavorer. To make the determination that he is indeed a brother in Christ, I have to look at his fruits (at least, from this angle) while listening to his expressed desire for the Truth of God's Word (whether in accuracy or in error still studying It) and NOT write him off as heathenistic by looking at his ignorance, his insensitivity, his apathy, and his lack of discernment which are all apparent. He still has breath in his body. Pray God sends laborers to point Scripture out to him - and that somebody does it in persistence and in diligence. Because that's actually the experience of us all in Christ - edifying one another, building one another up in the Word (not just with things we want to hear but with what may even correct us). And he does need correcting in this area - desperately - because he proves himself to be a weak point of reference for somebody in such need.

In Paul Washer's message about adultery, he read from 1 Corinthians 5 (among other passages) that believers are to not keep company with willful sinners. An abuser is a willful sinner to get away from - especially for his abused wife to get away from. That is what i believe. Even though I've taken the stance of fighting - as someone who really loves Christ - staying away as an abused person is what I believe according to 1 Corinthians 5. I realize there is no one except God's Word that we can actually agree with 100% (as we're all subject to error and need corrective/expository/private devotional teaching throughout our lives). That said, I don't want to make Paul Washer guilty by association. He's talked about not agreeing with leaders among him without losing respect for them.

You know my situation with my own pastor's insensitivity and lacking discernment. It hurts. And I shutter to think his take on my situation could possibly translate over to a situation where somebody is being abused. (He certainly knows how I was throwing objects at my husband and going buck wild off at discover day, triggered by the years when I did NOT push him back and bully him back, triggered by the fact that he beat his mistress - as she tattled on him to me. My pastor was very gracious toward me with prayers and counsel.) It would not surprise me if my pastor would think just like John Piper. I happen to think, unless leaders advocate all members including themselves literally taking abused women into shelter under their physical care while communicating with law enforcement, many of us we as a unit are not even equipped to give sound advice to abused spouses. And yet we have to, because in such situations, everybody is caught off guard with what to do and how to contribute to solution.

Endeavourer said:

I would stop short of saying Piper personally *advocates* abuse, however the consequence is that his teachings do by providing counsel contrary to "don't tolerate it" and he outright states his counsel is Biblical.

I am not saying Piper is not a converted person, just that he has a lot to answer for.

In my involvement in ministering to abused women of faith, I'm exposed to situations that makes my skin curl. Situations that the women thought they were called endure due to teachings of Piper's, and teachings like Pipers. Situations women thought they had to submit to due to teachings of Piper's and teachings like Piper's.

You are clearly a thinker. You have backbone and the nerve to stand up for yourself. From your posting history, I would definitely say you are a strong woman. Yet, look what you took, for how long you took it until you responded to effectively protect yourself. Look at the decisions *YOU* have made as to how to navigate your situation in spite of your pastor not having a full understanding of how to help. You have chosen to try to work through your situation but yet you do so fully acknowledging you are worthy of respect and even demanding such. You had a sense what righteousness was, and a sense that you weren't being afforded it.

Now, imagine women who were raised differently. Raised in this hyper-patriarchal notion that women do not have their own agency, but must be entirely subservient to their fathers and then, after marriage, to their husbands.

Some preachers go so far as to say (Piper stopped short of this but barely) that if your husband commands you to sin, you are to sin at his command and HE will be held accountable for your sin because they see the husband as some sort of priest to the wife. Also, some women being raised like this are taught not to complain about their husband since that isn't submitting to his authority. I've encountered women who were presenting terrible situations to their pastors and were scolded for gossiping about their husbands and told their problem was they were being too unsubmissive.

Imagine what someone who has had their sense of righteousness stolen from them, their understanding of right and wrong, would endure in a marriage.

The stories these types of women tell - who unlike you - do not have a sense of the boundary between their dignity(righteousness) and abuse, who do not dare to be strong people, make me SO angry at Piper for his perversion of theology on this issue.

People who run ministries to these types of women (what's left of them when they finally rear up against their ordeal and escape) have brought to Piper's attention again and AGAIN and again what his teaching is doing to these women. They have begged for him to provide strong caveats for abuse and to teach strongly against it. So, take this information as a backdrop against his smirking, ridiculous youtube video I posted. The LAST thing he could say is that he is unaware or that his encouragement to abusers is unintentional.

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I am truly sad to hear of these stories. Please tell me how awareness can be made - whether by blogging as we've briefly discussed before or some other way - in order that those in faith community can look at what's happening and correct ourselves.

I am truly sorry that we have life threatening failures. I understand the solution begins with prayer. I just don't ever want that to become a go-to place just allowing myself to be lazy about rolling the sleeves up. I do want to make a better difference and hope I haven't been harboring any apathy that, for abused sisters, is no better than watching abuse happen with my own eyes.