The Law loses again..God must be angry!

Doug Melven

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However, if you get it...good, but for those that don't, for those that are genuinely confused, for whatever reason...the faith only crowd confusing you because they like the concept of being saved no matter what they do. And I hope they realize what they are doing in teaching such. Or you just weren't able to quite get it. And it's there for that faith only crowd unless they choose to cite something they learned instead of read to make it nill
The faith only crowd, which I am one of, does not believe that we are saved no matter what we do. Please stop with the misrepresentation.
We believe Jesus paid our entire sin debt because we didn't stand any chance whatsoever of being righteous.
We recognize that we are totally incapable of doing any good on our own. And if we do manage to do anything good in an attempt to get something from God it is a filthy rag in God's eyes.

And please pay special attention the the last one, that is not a list but drive home the point that actions by us are involved/required in getting to heaven
If you think for one second your actions apart from trusting in Jesus will get you to Heaven you have fallen from grace according to Galatians 5:1-4 and Romans 11:6.

You also make the mistake of thinking being born-again and inheriting the Kingdom of God are the same.
They are not. Jesus said in John 3 that to enter or see the Kingdom of God you had to be born-again.
According to what Jesus said here you could be born-again without entering the Kingdom of God.
To inherit the Kingdom of God you need faith and patience. Hebrews 6:12
 
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GirdYourLoins

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Mostly agree except about the stoning part.

Only adultery was punishable by stoning. Being pregnant without adultery was not punishable by stoning. I believe there had to be witnesses to an Adultery for someone to be stoned as well.

Another issue is that Mary was engaged to be married but not actually married yet so Adultery couldn't apply anyways.
This
 
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Soyeong

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"Jesus was a Jew", most importantly Jesus was God incarnate as you stated.

John 1
14 And the Word (Gods eternal words) became flesh and dwelt among us (Jesus), and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth.

Jesus is the embodiment of the Law i.e. 10 commandments

You are aware that The Law refers to the first 5 books of scripture?

There are 2 separate sets of laws. Both of which are described in the OT. The 10 commandments, Gods Moral eternal laws .... and the Cerimonial/Sacrificial Law done away with on the cross.

Jesus was a Jew, born under the Law. Yes, and until Jesus was crucified, the "Laws of moses", i.e. the sacrificial/cerimonial and the Moral laws were both in effect.

Jesus was sinless, which means that he kept the entire Law perfectly, not just the Ten Commandments. All of God's Laws are moral commands and were given to teach us how to walk in His ways. The Ten Commandments were what the Mosaic Covenant was originally intended to be, but that covenant was never made. It was based upon the condition that the people would hear God's voice and obey (Exodus 19:5), but upon hearing God's voice, the people got cold feet and decided that they wanted God to speak to Moses and to listen to him instead, which was less than ideal, but God nevertheless agreed to this different covenant. It was a exactly like someone saving his damsel in distress out of bondage in Egypt, proposing to her, and with her agreeing, but on the day of her wedding deciding that she only wanted to interact with her husband through a mediator, which he nevertheless agreed to out of his love for her, but Moses could not be everywhere, so that quickly led to problems that would not have happened if the people had been listening to God's voice. In lieu of the people being directed by God voice in how to walk in His ways, it then became necessary for Moses to write down those instructions (Deuteronomy 5:22-33).

The ceremonial laws instruct us how to act in accordance with God's holiness, so they can only be done away with if God's eternal holiness is first done away with. Crosses were never used as a means of disposing of laws, but rather what was written on crosses were the violations of the law or the charges against the person being crucified in order to explain why they were being crucified (Matthew 27:37). This fits perfectly with the concept of the charges against us or the violations of God's Law that we have committed were nailed to Christ's cross and he died in our place to pay the penalty for our sins, but does not fit at all with doing away with God's holy, righteous, and good Law.

What does “Fulfill” mean to you?

Here is what the Greek definition of fulfill means.

NAS Exhaustive Concordance
Word Origin
from plérés
Definition
to make full, to complete

The Mosaic Laws = Cerimonial/Sacrificial Laws

Jesus, being the final sacrifice made continuance of the Mosaic Law unnecessary he was the final sacrifice. His death "completed"/ fulfilled the Mosaic laws.

The Moral Law - 10 Commandments

Matthew 5

17“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished.

Again - fulfill - complete them

Jesus did not sin - i.e. sin = transgression of the moral law, therefore completed them.
But this does not mean He made the moral law non-existent or irrelevant.

To fulfill the law means "to cause God's will (as made known in the Law) to be obeyed as it should be" (NAS 2c) and after Jesus said he came to fulfill the law, this precisely what Jesus proceeded to do six times throughout the rest of Matthew 5. According to Galatians 5:14, anyone who has ever loved their neighbor has fulfilled the entire law, so it is something that countless people have done, which means that it does not refer to something unique that Jesus did, and certainly not to doing away with God's eternal laws. Likewise, Galatians 6:2 says that bearing one another's burdens fulfills the Law of Christ, which refers to obeying it as it should be obeyed, not to doing away with. In Romans 15:18-19, it says that Paul fulfilled the Gospel, which referred to causing the Gentiles to become fully obedient to it in word and in deed, not to doing away with it.

Jesus warned that those who relaxed the least of the laws or taught others to do the same will be called least in the Kingdom, while those who obey the Law and teach others to do the same will be called great in the Kingdom, so this is something we need to take seriously. Heaven and earth are still here and not all has been accomplished, so God's eternal laws are still in effect. There is nothing in the Bible that speaks about completing the Law by perfectly obeying it, there is nothing in Matthew 5 that indicates that Jesus was referring to his death, and nothing that he said about his death that indicates that he would do away with any of God's eternal laws.

We humans are unable to keep the Moral Law but that does not mean that the Moral Law no longer exists .... this is why Jesus died for us so that His righteous (fulfillment/completion of the Moral Law) may be imputed unto those who believe and have accepted Him and may receive salvation. It is not by our works .... it is by His works imputed unto us, by the shedding of his blood, The covering of His blood allows us to stand before God as blameless. Amen.

According to Deuteronomy 30:11-14, God said that what He commanded was not too difficult for us, but that His Word is near us, in our mouth and in our heart so that we can obey it, and Romans 10:5-8 quotes this passage in regard to what our faith says, so to say that we are not able to keep God's Law is to call Him a liar and to deny what our faith says. In Titus 2:14, it does not say that Jesus gave himself to free us from the Law, but to free us from all Lawlessness and to purify for himself a people who are zealous for doing good works. So Jesus freed us from sin so that we could be free to obey the Law and thereby meet its righteous requirement (Romans 8:3-4). We have not been given the righteousness of God said that we will hide it under a bushel, but so that we will let it shine, which is in accordance with God's instructions for that as given in His Law and in accordance with the example that Christ set for us to follow.

Romans 3

Righteousness Through Faith - and regarding "Jews"

We are all children of God

Galatians 3

27For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28There is neither Jew nor Greek (used referring to Gentiles), there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s offspring, heirs according to promise.

21But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile, 23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 25God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement,i through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished— 26he did it to demonstrate his righteousness at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.

Indeed, the one and only way that there has ever been to become righteous is through faith, and by there same faith we are therefore required to be careful to obey all of God's commands. God's commands were not given to teach how to act like Jews, but to teach His followers how to walk in His ways. It wouldn't make any sense for Gentiles to say that God has given instructions to His followers for how to follow him, and we should become His followers, but should not follow those instructions because they were only given to His followers and not to people like us who were not his followers.
 
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Ken Rank

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Jesus allowed himself to be killed. How can anyone not know that?????? Did you notice the being nailed to a cross part??????
Are you really arguing this? Do you not believe he could have come down if he desired? He calmed stormy waters, raised the dead, caused the blind to see, the deaf to hear, the lame to walk and he couldn't push back on the Roman soldiers? He ALLOWED himself to do what he did which is exactly why he said there is no greater love then when one lays down his life for others.
 
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Kenny'sID

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Through studying and praying we learn to know His Voice.
Somebody earlier said there were 1050 commands in the New Testament.
I am fairly good at memorizing Scripture, (there are people who have referred to me as "The walking Bible") and I don't think I will ever be able to learn 1050 commands.
But I do know His voice and I obey when I hear it.

People will tell themselves whatever they want to believe and it is often Jesus'/God's voice" telling them that, or so they think...I've seen it before, and the thing they hear is ok to do is something completely contrary to the Bible. Happens all the time. So for the selfish among us, the ones who hear what "they want", we need written rules. Jesus' voice can work all depending on who is hearing it, otjerwise things can go bad real fast.

As to all those commands, you are trying to complicate the simple in order to make the ten and a few additions look unreasonable...a common trick.

The faith only crowd, which I am one of, does not believe that we are saved no matter what we do. Please stop with the misrepresentation.

No, I won't stop because some people believe just that. Far from a misrepresentation. and if you feel you have to do more than say you have faith, you are not a part of the faith only crowd, simple as that.

We recognize that we are totally incapable of doing any good on our own. And if we do manage to do anything good in an attempt to get something from God it is a filthy rag in God's eyes.

So, we are incapable but we mange to do good still? Hmmm. Either way... your point?

You also make the mistake of thinking being born-again and inheriting the Kingdom of God are the same.
They are not. Jesus said in John 3 that to enter or see the Kingdom of God you had to be born-again.
According to what Jesus said here you could be born-again without entering the Kingdom of God.
To inherit the Kingdom of God you need faith and patience. Hebrews 6:12

Where did I make that mistake? And the rest, well, scaaause me :confused:?? When people try to complicate the simple, they generally are a bit more crafty, but that? not sure what you're doing.

"Faith and patience" only? No you aren't paying attention, read the scripture again and see what you must do/not do in order to enter the kingdom of God....

Wow, denial at it's finest...unbelievable
 
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Soyeong

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Jesus allowed himself to be killed. How can anyone not know that?????? Did you notice the being nailed to a cross part??????

John 10:17-18 For this reason the Father loves me, because I lay down my life that I may take it up again. No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This charge I have received from my Father.”

Do you think that Jesus lied?
 
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Kenny'sID

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YouAreAwesome

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"Moses" is an idiomatic reference to God's law because Moses was the instrument that God gave the law through. The "letter" of the law affords divorce, but the letter doesn't sufficiently reveal God's full intent for this commandment. In fact, the letter does not sufficiently reveal God's intent for pretty much any commandment because, as already shown in the examples of adultery and murder... the heart's condition in relation to that particular sin dictates the depth of the sin. One can "commit adultery" without sleeping with another. That is his point here and throughout the NT and is the tool he is using to show that we can't walk this out to perfection without having the law written in full by God on our minds and hearts.

Here you write "God wrote the law through" Moses so then it becomes a question of how much of Moses is in the law? No one really knows. You appear to have taken the view that God picked up Moses like a pen and wrote word for word exactly what God wanted to write. I see at least three problems with this view. One, if Jesus can make a positive change to the law in one or two sentences, then why weren't these sentences in the law to begin with? Two, why did God write up laws that promoted evil for example slavery? Three, why is the law written in the same format as the covenants of surrounding nations?

On the other hand, I have taken the view that at least some of Moses' own biases and life-experiences are in the law. The problem with this view is, how much? And I'm not sure what the answer is. This leads to picking and choosing what was from God and what was from Moses. @jesus316 seems to argue that all (if not most) of the law was Moses. I'm inclined to move in that direction rather than towards inerrancy. But I'm still figuring this all out.

Jesus seemed to support the second view, that Moses had a say in what was written in the law, otherwise He wouldn't talk about it as "Moses' Law" but use the language you have been using and call it "God's Law". This is where you and @Soyeong differ. You argue that Jesus saw the heart of the law and therefore could make the necessary changes to clarify it, whereas @Soyeong argues the law did not need clarifying at all, rather Jesus worked in harmony with it. Then my own view is that Jesus came to remove the yoke of the law and implement a new covenant of forgiveness thereby making the entire old law obsolete.

Whatever the inspiration of the Old Law, it only ever applied to Israel, and it ended.
 
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SBC

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Not true.

Disagree.

betroth - is the initiating of one to another being agreed upon.
In Jewish culture, it was an agreement being stuck between the man and the woman's father.
(this is the hope something will be arranged_

betrothed - is when the promise between the man and the woman's father is stuck in agreement, and the woman's father has paid the obligatory fee to the man.
(this is an arrangement being agreed)

espouse - is the promise between the man and the woman, bonded in agreement, by the woman's father and the man, that the man and woman shall marry. The woman stays in her father's house, and the man goes to prepare a place for him and his prospective bride.
(this is the effect of the arrangement having been made)

espoused - is when the man and the woman are ceremonially gathered to marry.
(which was typically a small private gathering.

Married - is the result of the ceremony.

Husband and wife - is the NEW status of the man and woman.

Roman Law required the people under their jurisdiction to appear at particular cities and pay their poll tax.

Citizens of Nazareth were required to travel to Bethlehem (the city of David, because they were of the House of David) to pay their poll tax. Both Joseph and Mary were citizens of Nazareth (of the House of David) and traveled to Bethlehem to pay their poll tax to the Roman tax collector.

If Mary and Joseph were NOT MARRIED, as you suggest, Mary would have been taxed with her Father's household.

Luke 2
[5] To be taxed with Mary his espoused wife, being great with child.

Joseph's espousED wife; notifies you that he and Mary were MARRIED, and she IS His wife, and they were TAXED from the same household, of husband and wife, and she was pregnant and about to deliver her baby.

God Bless,
SBC
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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The point remains made that Joseph chose compassion over what people thought of him.

..
Sorry, but no. His choice was not based on compassion vs TORAH.
He was compassionate but still would have honored TORAH anyway and he did honor TORAH no matter what people thought of him - no real credit to him for that , nor for anyone really - all the glory is to Yahweh.
.
Yahweh is compassionate , yet destroyed all the men, women and children on earth in the flood.
Yeshua is compassionate, yet will destroy all the enemy when it is time.
 
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Grip Docility

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Sorry, but no. His choice was not based on compassion vs TORAH.
He was compassionate but still would have honored TORAH anyway and he did honor TORAH no matter what people thought of him - no real credit to him for that , nor for anyone really - all the glory is to Yahweh.
.
Yahweh is compassionate , yet destroyed all the men, women and children on earth in the flood.
Yeshua is compassionate, yet will destroy all the enemy when it is time.

He didn’t destroy them... He saved them from the violence of the day and only destroyed their flesh...

1 Peter 3:18For Christ also sufferedb once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit, 19in whichc he went and proclaimedd to the spirits in prison,20becausee they formerly did not obey, when God’s patience waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through water.

He died for the ones washed away in the flood, too.

:)

1 John 4:8

And... Jesus is the same today, yesterday and forever. ;)
 
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Doug Melven

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People will tell themselves whatever they want to believe and it is often Jesus'/God's voice" telling them that, or so they think...I've seen it before, and the thing they hear is ok to do is something completely contrary to the Bible. Happens all the time. So for the selfish among us, the ones who hear what "they want", we need written rules. Jesus' voice can work all depending on who is hearing it, otjerwise things can go bad real fast.
If those people do those things because they say they heard from God, they are lying.
No, I won't stop because some people believe just that. Far from a misrepresentation. and if you feel you have to do more than say you have faith, you are not a part of the faith only crowd, simple as that.
When did I ever say I only had to SAY I have faith. Never said it.
I did say, "Faith is the only thing required".
If the faith you have isn't producing works, you need to examine yourself to make sure you are in the faith.

So, we are incapable but we mange to do good still? Hmmm. Either way... your point?
You honestly think you are doing good?
If you do anything that Christ did not do through you, it will profit you nothing.
Any righteous act you perform by yourself God looks at as a filthy rag. Isaiah 64:6
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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He died for the ones washed away in the flood, too.
A very old heresy. Best not trust whoever told you that. They were evil as people are evil, without redemption with all those who are never forgiven.

He didn’t destroy them
Also, simple english:
Genesis 6-9 - Wickedness in the World - When human - Bible Gateway
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis+6-9
Never again will the waters become a flood to destroy all life.
 
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Hmm the LAW and God must be angry? You know WHY the law came to be right? GODS idea was it?

And before Yeshua died rose PRAISE GOD for the worlds sins.. how did this GOD that was the ONLY one that had the RIGHT under the law. For a woman that did not come to Him because she wanted to be forgiven.. yet He did what? The way MAN saw sees this LAW... God is just.. and is just. And its NOT the way He does.. nor ever will. We need to just get over it.

Meaning.. yeah.. He is not out to hurt to judge to punish anyone. He already did finish this.. with Christ.
 
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Doug Melven

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A very old heresy. Best not trust whoever told you that. They were evil as people are evil, without redemption with all those who are never forgiven.
Are you saying Yeshua didn't die for them because they were to evil?
Yeshua died for everybody, 1 John 2:2
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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excerpts: (top 3 hits, not vetted)
/search >
Galatians 1:4 who gave himself for our sins to rescue us ... - Bible Hub
biblehub.com/galatians/1-4.htm
Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present wicked world, according to the will of God and our Father: ..... last clause, ("for sins"); Hebrews 10:6, "Whole burnt offerings, and sacrifices for sin;" Hebrews 10:18, "No more offering for sin;" 1 John 2:2, 10, "Propitiation for our sins;" 1 Peter 3:16, "Died [or, ...

Hebrews 10:26 If we deliberately keep on sinning after we ... - Bible Hub
biblehub.com/hebrews/10-26.htm
New International Version If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, New Living Translation Dear friends, if we deliberately continue sinning after we have received knowledge of the truth, there is no longer any sacrifice that will cover these sins.

Leviticus 17:11 | Jews For Judaism
j4j.me › Articles
One of the cornerstones of Christian theology is that the only way to achieve atonement for sins is through the offering of a sacrifice whose blood is shed in our place. The Greek Testament makes this very clear in Hebrews 9:22 “…without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.” Is this idea consistent with the ...
 
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Soyeong

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Here you write "God wrote the law through" Moses so then it becomes a question of how much of Moses is in the law? No one really knows. You appear to have taken the view that God picked up Moses like a pen and wrote word for word exactly what God wanted to write.

Deuteronomy 5:31-33 But you, stand here by me, and I will tell you the whole commandment and the statutes and the rules that you shall teach them, that they may do them in the land that I am giving them to possess.’ 32 You shall be careful therefore to do as the Lord your God has commanded you. You shall not turn aside to the right hand or to the left. 33 You shall walk in all the way that the Lord your God has commanded you, that you may live, and that it may go well with you, and that you may live long in the land that you shall possess.

Moses had the role of a mediator, where God would tell him to say to the children of Israel to do such and such, and then he would go and say that to the children of Israel. In the above verses, God wanted Moses to write down the whole of what He was commanding and did not allow any room for Moses to depart from what to the right or to the left, so though it was written by Moses, we can be fairly confident what what he wrote was in complete accordance with what God instructed Him.

I see at least three problems with this view. One, if Jesus can make a positive change to the law in one or two sentences, then why weren't these sentences in the law to begin with? Two, why did God write up laws that promoted evil for example slavery? Three, why is the law written in the same format as the covenants of surrounding nations?

(1) Jesus did not sin in violation of Deuteronomy 4:2, he said that he came only to do the Father's will (John 6:38), and that his teachings were not his own, but that of the Father (John 7:16), so he likewise did not depart to the right or to the left from what the Father had commanded, which means that he did not make any changes to the Law. (2) There is a difference between promoting slavery and regulating it. If someone couldn't pay their debts in the ANE, then they could either beg, starve, or sell their future labor, and if they were able bodied, then begging wasn't an option, so slavery was an economic necessity. However, the Bible gives strict guidelines for not mistreating slaves, and furthermore contains guidelines for how a slave could choose to become a permanent slave of their master, which meant that the slave thought that they had it better off as a slave than on their own. This sort that the Bible regulates is not comparable to colonial slavery. (3) God has always been is a covenant-making God starting with Adam, so it could easily be that these practices were first taught by God and adopted by other nations.

On the other hand, I have taken the view that at least some of Moses' own biases and life-experiences are in the law. The problem with this view is, how much? And I'm not sure what the answer is. This leads to picking and choosing what was from God and what was from Moses. @jesus316 seems to argue that all (if not most) of the law was Moses. I'm inclined to move in that direction rather than towards inerrancy. But I'm still figuring this all out.

It is impossible to remove our biases, but Moses often went before God to seek guidance, so I do not see any reason to think that his biases unduly influenced what is written in the Law or to think that God would not have taken corrective action if he had departed to the right to the left. Furthermore, Jesus did not give any hint that he thought that Moses taught his own commands.

Jesus seemed to support the second view, that Moses had a say in what was written in the law, otherwise He wouldn't talk about it as "Moses' Law" but use the language you have been using and call it "God's Law". This is where you and @Soyeong differ. You argue that Jesus saw the heart of the law and therefore could make the necessary changes to clarify it, whereas @Soyeong argues the law did not need clarifying at all, rather Jesus worked in harmony with it.

I think that many of God's laws almost beg for clarification. For example, we are commanded not to work on the Sabbath, so we need to clarify what counts as work. Jesus added clarity to the Law whenever he taught how to obey it by word or by example, so I have no objection to him adding clarity, but he did so in a way that revealed how the Law was originally intended to be understood and obeyed, not in a way where he sinned in violation of Deuteronomy 4:2 by adding his own commands. For example, his command not to look at a married woman lustfully in our heart is just the correct application of the 7th and 10th Commandments against adultery and coveting in our heart, so it was nothing brand new.

Then my own view is that Jesus came to remove the yoke of the law and implement a new covenant of forgiveness thereby making the entire old law obsolete.

In Matthew 11:28-30, Jesus was inviting people to become his disciples and disciples are people who have the goal of memorizing their rabbi's teachings, of learning how to think and act like their rabbi, and of essentially becoming a copy of them, so I don't see any reason to think that his yoke was anything that that the Mosaic Law that he taught his followers to obey by word and by example. When he said that it was the good way where we will find rest for our souls, he was referencing Jeremiah 6:16-19, where the Law is the good way where we will find rest for our souls.

I agree that we are under the New Covenant and not the Mosaic Covenant, but we are nevertheless under the same God with the same ways. There are many verses that speak about the Mosaic Law as being instructions for how to walk in God's ways, so these instructions cannot become obsolete unless God's ways first become obsolete. So to say that the Law is obsolete is to say that that God's attributes, such his holiness, righteousness, goodness, justice, mercy, faithfulness, love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, gentleness, and self-control have become obsolete. For instance, the Law reveals that it is in accordance with God's righteousness to help the poor, so the only way for that command to become obsolete would be if God's righteous were to first became obsolete, but God's righteousness is eternal (Psalms 119:142), there all are all of His righteous laws (Psalms 119:160). In Psalms 119:160, it does not leave any room for God's laws to one day become obsolete. There is much evidence of many of God's laws already been in place prior to when they were given at Sinai. For example, the Sabbath was commanded in Exodus 16, so there is a distinction between a set of instructions for how to walk in God's ways and a covenant agreement to walk according to those instructions, and I see no particular reason why the Mosaic Covenant becoming obsolete would also cause any of God's laws to become obsolete.

Whatever the inspiration of the Old Law, it only ever applied to Israel, and it ended.

Then it is a good thing that we become fellow citizens of Israel through faith in Messiah (Romans 9:6-8, Ephesians 2:19).
 
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Tutorman

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The Law loses again..God must be angry!

Think about this for a minute, by the thread title your saying the God who never changed and is the same yesterday, today, and forever Hebrews 13:8 changes
 
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