Apologetic_Warrior
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I blame the Greek Hedonists, the pleasure feel good philosophy, and today instant gratification is but a click away.
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Obedience for Obedience' Sake
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Well it is both reverential awe of the Almighty and the fear that He will chasten me.
My righteousness status comes from Christ. I can walk in the peace of God if I do not sin. If I sin, the peace is taken away until I confess my sin to God and ask for forgiveness. I need the peace of God to walk with God. If this peace is taken away, when I read on the Scripture, I can no longer have the supernatural feeding of the Word. I am not exaggerating here, I can literally feel my spirit being fed when I am in supernatural feeding mode.
I need the peace of God to make wise decisions. So If I have peace deciding on something, then it is acceptable to God. If I do not have peace, then is not acceptable to God. This wavelength of peace is maintained as long as I am walking in ways that are acceptable to God (not sinning is one of those)
To possess the peace of God in my view is one of the ways a believer can possess a certain portion of God's glory.
This is just your own opinion. The view about God can be embarrassed is taken from Scripture
Psalm 4:2
[O ye sons of men, how long will ye turn my glory into shame?
how long will ye love vanity, and seek after leasing? Selah.]
Hebrews 11:16
[But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.]
You are not properly understanding what I typed. I said both Fear of the Lord and Love for the Lord are essential. It is just that I emphasize Fear of the Lord must come before Love for the Lord.
Ecclesiastes 12:13 [Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.]
The WHOLE DUTY of man is
1. Fear God
2. Keep His commandments.
The question that was asked to Jesus in Matthew 22 is 'What is the greatest commandment?'. The question is not 'What is the whole duty of man?'
Jesus answered what is the most important that falls under No 2. Btw, No 1 comes before No 2.
Furthermore the passage of 1 Corinthians 13:1-3 do not invalidate anything what I have typed.
1 Corinthians 13:1-3
1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I have become sounding brass or a clanging cymbal.
2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.
3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, but have not love, it profits me nothing.
The context 1 Corinthians 13:1-3 is performing good works must come with proper motivation.
We perform works for God and for other people out of the motivation of love.
Honestly, I do works to help people out of the sole motivation of love. Fear is not my motivation AT ALL when I want to make God happy or help other people.
However, when it comes to AVOIDING SIN. It is the Fear of the LORD that does the job. It is the PRIMARY ROCKET BOOSTER. Whenever Scripture talks about departing from evil, it is the Fear of the Lord that is mentioned.
There is different function for Fear of the Lord and Love for the Lord. We need them both. You fail to understand the functionality of each.
Love for the Lord is what sustains our relationship with the LORD. I also understand that Faith needs love to work (Gal 5:6). But love is not a weapon we can use against the devil.
When Jesus is tempted by the devil in the desert. Jesus's response in the desert is an example of how a believer can fight-off evil. The response to the first temptation in both Matthew and Luke account is the importance of feeding on the word of God. The response to the third temptation in Matthew and second temptation in Luke, Jesus said 'it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve'. This is taken from Deuteronomy 10:20 [Thou shalt fear the LORD thy God; him shalt thou serve, and to him shalt thou cleave, and swear by his name.]
God sees Fearing the Lord is synonymous with Worshiping the Lord.
Your understanding is mistaken.
Since Ecc 12:13 says the WHOLE DUTY of man is
1. Fear God
2. Keep His commandments.
1 Corinthians 13:1-3 says the importance of love as motive for good works. Which I absolutely agree. But where did you get the interpretation 'Love should be the only sole motivation for good works' from this passage. You are trying to insert a meaning what 1 Corinthians 13:1-3 did not say. That is a dangerous thing to do with Scripture to insert an interpretation it did not say. I challenge you to find in the Scripture that says 'Love is the ONLY basis for obedience that God will accept'.
The Scripture talks more about the Fear of the Lord than Love for the Lord and THAT IS A FACT.
One of the first gentile to be converted post-resurrection is Centurion Cornellius. He was given the privilege of angel visitation and God called Peter to visit his house for baptism. But what do the Scripture say about Cornellius?
Acts 10:2 [a devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God alway.]
Surprise! Cornellius is commended for Fearing the Lord. Nothing about loving the Lord.
God does not accept obedience out of fearing Him? Seriously?
This is a hyperbole, but will you accept it if unbelievers use 1 Corinthians 13:1-3 to state that 'love is all it need, we don't even need Jesus as Lord and Savior to be saved'. If you cannot accept it, neither can I accept your justification of using 1 Cor 13:1-3 to disregard an essential foundational doctrine of God.
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In my walk with the Lord, I see being obedient as not optional. It is necessary. Being obedient all the time is what makes worshiping the Lord 24/7 possible.
However, I must emphasize 'Obedience of Obedience sake' mentality will create opportunities for believers to be proud of the work of their own hands. Such mentality is a slippery slope to create a holier-than-thou mentality. Because if obedience for sole worshiping/glorifying the Lord sake, the end goal of that motive is the satisfaction of God.
And yes, if we worship the Lord more, our prayers are more likely to be heard.
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yeshuaslavejeff
simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua
Not exactly, perhaps not so.
In Scripture (God's Word), He clearly shows whose prayer He hears, and whose prayer He does not hear. I don't believe He ever uses a word such as "I will likely ...." about anything, ever.
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- Oct 7, 2017
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What a great OP.
There's this great video clip...I wish I could find it. I saw it years ago. It shows a man schelpping into church, he's tired and cranky, the kids are bugging him, the coffee spilled, etc, etc, etc. And up front comes the praise leader in typical spunky fashion saying, "How do you FEEL, church?"
And the man thinks, "Don't ask me how I FEEL. Ask me what I KNOW."
Oh, do I love that. And it's true. I KNOW I am to obey God no matter what my fallen, capricious, fallible, often downright STUPID human emotions "feel" like doing. Honest to Pete, if I did what I often "feel" like doing--Heaven help me, right?
The good news is, the more I do what I know I should do, the more often my feelings fall into line. However, I still rely more on "knowing" than "feeling". And I thank God that I can, through His Word!
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Sophisticated hedonists were well able to understand the principle of delayed gratification, and also understood the principle of enduring immediate pain for superior rewards.
Hedonists believe that the body (including the conscience) is a well-tuned moral indicator. If it made you feel bad (physically or conscientiously) to perform a certain action, then that action was morally wrong. If it made you feel good (physically or conscientiously) to perform a certain action, then that action was morally correct.
Most Westerners, including most people calling themselves Christian are hedonists in actual philosophical praxis.
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Almost there
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I still refer to my tag line. The problem is that everyone I've ever met is not perfect. And on a daily bases we sin. So the real question is, what is meant by "live according to the flesh"? If you choose fries instead of salad, because you like fries even though salad is better for you, are you going to hell because you "lived according to the flesh"?
This is where I think we get far too much into the weeds with this stuff. For me, living according to the flesh is putting the fleshly needs at top priority. And even then, the problem is not what you are doing, but WHY you are doing it. i.e. you are not really trusting in Jesus. You are not following what is said in Galatians:
Galatians 3:6-9New International Version (NIV)
6 So also Abraham “believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”
Understand, then, that those who have faith are children of Abraham. Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham: “All nations will be blessed through you.” So those who rely on faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith.
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The Scripture gives a number of conditions for a prayer to get answered.
'Worshipping the Lord more' is one of them. Total obedience is worshipping the Lord 24/7 (Romans 12:1)
Actually I have Scripture to prove my position of 'if we worship the Lord more, our prayers are more likely to be heard'
The concept of 'more likely' is derived from 1 John 3:22 [And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.]
We receive from God because
1. We keep His commandments
2. do those things are pleasing in His sight
To the extent we do more of 1 and 2, is the extent we receive from God. That is straightforward interpretation from 1 John 3:22
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yeshuaslavejeff
simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua
Yep. That's one big problem.
Do you ever want to meet someone perfect ?
In the New Testament is found the solution, the only solution.
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Almost there
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You are speaking metaphorically, I'm speaking physically. In the flesh. On this planet. Right now.
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yeshuaslavejeff
simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua
No. I am speaking of the actual true real life experiences
as clearly written in the New Testament,
although it is kind of like Riply's Believe it or not - True things that most people never experience first hand or in person , but actually happen(-ed)...
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aiki
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Really? I just need the word of God. It's truth, wisdom, and spiritual principles provide me with all I need to make good, God-honoring decisions.
I see. Well, I've observed Christians sanctifying disobedience to God this way. "I gotta' pray about it and get some peace," they say, instead of just doing what God has plainly commanded them in Scripture to do. I hope you aren't guilty of this sort of thing. A believer does not have to have peace about loving their neighbor, or abstaining from fornication, or being generous to those in need, or telling the truth. These things are commanded of all believers in God's word, regardless of whether or not they feel at peace about obeying.
Peace is not a wavelength. Our peace is found in a Person: Jesus Christ. He is the "Prince of Peace" (Isa. 9:6); to have the "peace which passes all understanding" is to have him, to be in intimate, unbroken fellowship with him.
Isaiah 42:8
8 I am the Lord, that is My name; And My glory I will not give to another, Nor My praise to carved images.
Many times the Bible anthropomorphizes God. The Bible says God, who is an invisible Spirit (Jn. 1:18; 4:24) and not a human (Nu. 23:19; 1 Sam. 15:29), sits, and rests, that He stretches out His arm (Ex. 6:6), that He has a face (Deut. 31:17; Ps. 31:16, etc) and fingers (Ex. 31:18; Lu. 11:20). It would be impossible for us to talk about God without doing so through the lens of our own humanity. But if God is the perfect, omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent invisible Spirit the Bible says He is, then, when Scripture assigns human feelings, behaviours or characteristics to God, we ought to recognize that this is only an approximation, a speaking of God from our own frame of reference, and not a literal description of Him.
This is what happens when you take one verse and lift it up above the rest of Scripture. As far as I can tell, you have just arbitrarily established a hierarchy of verses here. I don't see that the phrase "whole duty of man" is a stronger phrase than "First and Great commandment"; I don't see that Solomon's words exceed those of Christ himself; I don't see that the duties of man described by Solomon cannot be fulfilled from a motive of love.
One avoids sin by obeying God's commands. And what is the First and Great commandment we ought to obey? Loving God with all of our being. There is, then, no legitimate way around the love motive in living the Christian life. Every time you obey God out of fear, you disobey the First and Great Commandment. As the apostle John has said, "he who fears has not been made perfect in love," and "perfect love casts out fear."
I think not.
That love is the only acceptable basis for our obedience is the clear implication in what Paul wrote to the Corinthian Christians. Nothing we say (vs. 1), nothing we know or believe (vs. 2), and nothing we do (vs. 3) serve any spiritually useful or profitable purpose if not connected to a motive of love. Christ makes this point as well:
Matthew 7:21-23
21 "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.
22 Many will say to Me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?'
23 And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!'
This is, at first glance, a strange set of verses. Is it not the will of the Father that demons be cast out of people? Yes, certainly. Is it not His will that wonders be done in Christ's name? Well, sure. Why, then, are those who do such things, who are doing the will of God, cast out from Christ and declared to be lawless? The answer is found in considering what they didn't say. These exorcisers of demons, these performers of miracles, these prophesiers did not claim obedience to the First and Great Commandment, did they? And why wouldn't they if they were trying to demonstrate their fidelity to Christ? It's the First and Great Commandment of God, its the beginning point of fulfilling the will of the Father, after all. They don't mention it, however, and are told to depart from Christ as lawless people. If just any sort of obedience was sufficient to warrant acceptance by Christ, these exorcists and miracle workers should have been let into God's kingdom. Christ makes it clear, though, that even miraculous deeds done in his name are worthless if they are separated from loving him with all of one's being.
Well, then, prove it.
This is the sort of poor reasoning that is leading you awry. The verse says absolutely nothing about on what basis God accepted Cornelius' obedience to His commands. Nothing. And, by the way, Cornelius is not commended in the verse, he is only described.
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nonaeroterraqueous
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Your statement contradicts:
Proverbs 1:7
Proverbs 8:13
Proverbs 9:10.
Matthew 8:28
Ecclesiastes 12:13
Job 28:28
Philippians 2:12-13
...and I'm tired of typing.
I can find verses telling us to fear the Lord, but I can't find anything telling us that fear of the Lord violates the first and greatest commandment. You can easily claim that we ought to love the Lord our God with all of our heart, mind and soul, but when you say that we cannot do so without discarding our fear of the Lord, then you pit one scripture against another, as though they were mutually contradictory, when scripture never once asserts that the two are in contradiction. If a contradiction appears to exist, then it only suggests a misunderstanding of one or the other, or both.
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- Dec 20, 2003
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It is better for me to choose to become the man Christ wants me to be. That sometimes means ignoring: my laziness, my desire to be alone , a lack of desire to share or express love to others, my indifference to others needs. When I choose to go to church and worship God and mix with His people and when I choose to be the better person that I know God wants me to be it becomes a little easier the next time to make the right choice and even easier the time after that. Obedience is about choosing to obey and doing what God says. It is not a narcissistic self exploration of subconscious motives that ends in the sin of not obeying God.
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Oldmantook
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Indeed everyone sins as no one is without sin including believers. And yes, the germane question is what does it mean to live according to the flesh? You or I may have our own opinion but that is really irrelevant as I'm sure you will agree that we should allow Scripture to speak for itself and define what means to live according to the flesh. Then we would know whether we would go to hell if we lived according to the flesh. Is going to hell a matter of food choices like fries or salad or is going to hell a matter of habitually sinning like a Christian who has a inappropriate contentography habit? Stark difference with consequences of great and eternal magnitude.
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aiki
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"Every time you obey God out of fear, you disobey the First and Great Commandment."
Your statement contradicts:
Proverbs 1:7
Proverbs 8:13
Proverbs 9:10.
Matthew 8:28
Ecclesiastes 12:13
Job 28:28
Philippians 2:12-13
...and I'm tired of typing.
Well, let's see now...
Proverbs 1:7 says nothing about one's motive for obedience to God's commands. It only states that the "fear of the Lord" is the "beginning of knowledge." So, no contradiction in this verse.
Proverbs 8:13 talks about how the "fear of the Lord" is to hate evil. Again, nothing in this verse says anything about the proper motive for one's obedience to God. It certainly offers nothing that contradicts what I asserted.
Same things goes for Proverbs 9:10 and Ecclesiastes 12:13. No discussion of the proper motive for one's obedience to God's commands in these verses whatsoever. They merely state that the fear of the Lord is important to knowledge and is a duty of Man to possess.
Matthew 8:28 must be a mis-reference since it relates part of an encounter two demoniacs had with Jesus. Nothing at all is said about the proper motive for obedience in the verse, nor is there anything in the verse that contradicts what I've said.
Job 28:28 is of a kind with the rest of the verses you've cited insofar as it, too, says nothing at all about the proper motive for one's obedience to God and offers nothing that contradicts my quotation at the top of this post.
Philippians 2:12, 13 also provides no contradiction to what I've asserted. The verses talk about working out our salvation with "fear and trembling," and how we only work out what God has first worked into us, but they say nothing at all about the proper motive for obedience to God's commands.
This is what happens sometimes when a person tries to proof-text Scripture without actually looking at the individual verses they throw out as proof of their view.
I've never said that a fear of the Lord violates the First and Great Commandment. But it doesn't fulfill it, either, and is not the biblically-prescribed basis for obedience to God's commands.
But this isn't what I've done. I have never pitted the fear of the Lord against loving God. I've only contended that the proper motive, the only acceptable motive, for obedience to God is love. That this is so does not require denying the importance of fearing the Lord. It is important - just not as a motive for our obedience.
Your statement contradicts:
Proverbs 1:7
Proverbs 8:13
Proverbs 9:10.
Matthew 8:28
Ecclesiastes 12:13
Job 28:28
Philippians 2:12-13
...and I'm tired of typing.
Well, let's see now...
Proverbs 1:7 says nothing about one's motive for obedience to God's commands. It only states that the "fear of the Lord" is the "beginning of knowledge." So, no contradiction in this verse.
Proverbs 8:13 talks about how the "fear of the Lord" is to hate evil. Again, nothing in this verse says anything about the proper motive for one's obedience to God. It certainly offers nothing that contradicts what I asserted.
Same things goes for Proverbs 9:10 and Ecclesiastes 12:13. No discussion of the proper motive for one's obedience to God's commands in these verses whatsoever. They merely state that the fear of the Lord is important to knowledge and is a duty of Man to possess.
Matthew 8:28 must be a mis-reference since it relates part of an encounter two demoniacs had with Jesus. Nothing at all is said about the proper motive for obedience in the verse, nor is there anything in the verse that contradicts what I've said.
Job 28:28 is of a kind with the rest of the verses you've cited insofar as it, too, says nothing at all about the proper motive for one's obedience to God and offers nothing that contradicts my quotation at the top of this post.
Philippians 2:12, 13 also provides no contradiction to what I've asserted. The verses talk about working out our salvation with "fear and trembling," and how we only work out what God has first worked into us, but they say nothing at all about the proper motive for obedience to God's commands.
This is what happens sometimes when a person tries to proof-text Scripture without actually looking at the individual verses they throw out as proof of their view.
I've never said that a fear of the Lord violates the First and Great Commandment. But it doesn't fulfill it, either, and is not the biblically-prescribed basis for obedience to God's commands.
But this isn't what I've done. I have never pitted the fear of the Lord against loving God. I've only contended that the proper motive, the only acceptable motive, for obedience to God is love. That this is so does not require denying the importance of fearing the Lord. It is important - just not as a motive for our obedience.
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Almost there
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I get that. But I wasn't there then.
To be frank, when I said "never met anybody" in my original post in question, I almost said, "except Jesus". But I thought that might confuse that I was talking about people walking around right now who are not Jesus.
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Yes. And here is one for you: There is the GWTJ, where the lost are killed - permanently - and then there is the Bema judgement seat of Christ, where believers are judged. That one is what a lot of Christians don't think about. I believe it is where the "He himself will be saved, but as through a fire" comes in.
Without getting into particulars, for me, I have areas of sin I still have to deal with, and areas that have just sort of faded away as I get older. But I relate all of it to the Bema judgement, not the GWTJ. I'm saved. The question is, where does my lifetime of works put me within the Kingdom of God. And that lifetime is not over yet.
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Oldmantook
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Same with me; daily battle with sin, some active and some faded away as we are commanded to deny ourselves and follow Him.
You refer the the Bema judgment but the problem as I see it is where exactly is the Bema judgement in Scripture? We know that the GWTJ occurs after the Millennium but when does the Bema occur. We are told that there are two judgments - one for believers, followed by another for the lost but exactly when or where does the Bema judgment occur? There is no reference in the scriptures as far as I'm aware of referring to a separate Bema judgment. If you can show me exactly when this judgment occurs, I would appreciate it. It is also interesting to note that the only mention of when/where "works" are judged is at the GWTJ.
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