Obedience for Obedience' Sake
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The submission Christ speaks of is not submission out of necessity or under duress, but out of willingness.
A career soldier willingly puts himself into a hierarchy of submission--every person in uniform says "yes sir" to somebody. Nobody forces him to do it year after after year.
Back during WWII, there was a journalist embedded with General George S Patton's Third Army. War itself is hell every day, but Patton was a tough, tough commander who pushed his troops harder than any other.
Yet, the journalist noted that Patton's men had higher morale than any others he'd seen during the war. Whatever Patton demanded, they worked to give him.
The journalist asked soldier after solder, "As hard a commander as Patton is, why is your morale so high?"
The soldiers' constant answer: "Because our general is going to win this war."
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fhansen
Oldbie
At the end of the day love of God does produce obedience of God, by its nature. In fact, love is simply the right means to obedience; love defines justice for man which is why the greatest commandments are what they are, and why Rom 13 tells us that love fulfills the Law. Anyway, Basil of Cesaera, a 4th century believer, put it this way:
"If we turn away from evil out of fear of punishment, we are in the position of slaves. If we pursue the enticement of wages, . . . we resemble mercenaries. Finally if we obey for the sake of the good itself and out of love for him who commands . . . we are in the position of children."
"If we turn away from evil out of fear of punishment, we are in the position of slaves. If we pursue the enticement of wages, . . . we resemble mercenaries. Finally if we obey for the sake of the good itself and out of love for him who commands . . . we are in the position of children."
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Obedience is not for Obedience sake but for glorifying the Lord sake. Obedience for obedience sake is actually worshiping the works of your own hands
My motivation to live a sanctified life comes out of the Fear of the Lord, not because of the Love of the Lord. Furthermore, the Scripture talks more about the Fear of the Lord than the Love for the Lord.
Then there is Scriptural passage that warns us 'How long will you turn my glory into shame'. I do not want to sin because I want to have more of God's glory and not embarrass Him. That is my motivation. I have been exposed to 'Let's not sin because we love the Lord' message before. It did not work for me. I highly doubt it will work for anybody else. Because 'lovey feeling' is up and down. What happens during moment when one is not feeling loving towards the Lord?
I have been chastised by the Lord for certain actions that I have done before. I see breakthrough happening when I stop those sins. I have became an obedient person by the grace of God after those chastisement. We can see just from the fruits. Churches that do not preach on the Fear of the Lord and think 'love motivation' will produce obedience is very mistaken. Such churches tend to have believers that are comfortable with sin. Furthermore, in Hebrews 5:7-8 [7 Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared; 8 though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;] it is said EVEN THE ETERNAL GOD THE SON IN THE FLESH- CHRIST learnt obedience through the things that He suffered. CHRIST's prayer is heard because He has reverence (fear of the Lord) towards God the Father.
I do not believe a proper love for the Lord can come out if one does not have the Fear of the Lord.
Fear of the Lord is elementary school, Love for the Lord is secondary school. Both is necessary. However, to try to jump straight to emphasize Love for the Lord without understanding what Fear of the Lord is, there is no foundation.
If you read the book of Joshua and the book of Judges, THERE IS UNMISTAKABLE message that if one does not fear the Lord, the consequences is deadly.
In the book of Genesis, there is no mention of requirement of the love for the LORD at all. The first time the requirement of the Love of the Lord comes out is in Exodus 20:6.
When Abraham passed the ultimate test, he was commended by for fearing Him. God commend Abraham as a man of faith because he fears Him. Nowhere in the Scripture that Abraham is commended for loving the Lord.
There is nothing wrong with a mindset of having Fear of the Lord and coming to Him and expecting a benefit in return. It is actually commanded in the Scripture.
Hebrews 10:35
[Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompence of reward.]
Hebrews 11:1-6
[Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. 2 For by it the elders obtained a good report. 3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear. 4 By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh. 5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God. 6 But without faith it is impossible to please him:for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.]
Hebrews 11:1-6 is the only time in the Scripture that actually gives the Scriptural definition of faith. Biblical faith also involves positive confidence that God will reward you if you diligently seek Him.
My motivation to live a sanctified life comes out of the Fear of the Lord, not because of the Love of the Lord. Furthermore, the Scripture talks more about the Fear of the Lord than the Love for the Lord.
Then there is Scriptural passage that warns us 'How long will you turn my glory into shame'. I do not want to sin because I want to have more of God's glory and not embarrass Him. That is my motivation. I have been exposed to 'Let's not sin because we love the Lord' message before. It did not work for me. I highly doubt it will work for anybody else. Because 'lovey feeling' is up and down. What happens during moment when one is not feeling loving towards the Lord?
I have been chastised by the Lord for certain actions that I have done before. I see breakthrough happening when I stop those sins. I have became an obedient person by the grace of God after those chastisement. We can see just from the fruits. Churches that do not preach on the Fear of the Lord and think 'love motivation' will produce obedience is very mistaken. Such churches tend to have believers that are comfortable with sin. Furthermore, in Hebrews 5:7-8 [7 Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared; 8 though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;] it is said EVEN THE ETERNAL GOD THE SON IN THE FLESH- CHRIST learnt obedience through the things that He suffered. CHRIST's prayer is heard because He has reverence (fear of the Lord) towards God the Father.
I do not believe a proper love for the Lord can come out if one does not have the Fear of the Lord.
Fear of the Lord is elementary school, Love for the Lord is secondary school. Both is necessary. However, to try to jump straight to emphasize Love for the Lord without understanding what Fear of the Lord is, there is no foundation.
If you read the book of Joshua and the book of Judges, THERE IS UNMISTAKABLE message that if one does not fear the Lord, the consequences is deadly.
In the book of Genesis, there is no mention of requirement of the love for the LORD at all. The first time the requirement of the Love of the Lord comes out is in Exodus 20:6.
When Abraham passed the ultimate test, he was commended by for fearing Him. God commend Abraham as a man of faith because he fears Him. Nowhere in the Scripture that Abraham is commended for loving the Lord.
There is nothing wrong with a mindset of having Fear of the Lord and coming to Him and expecting a benefit in return. It is actually commanded in the Scripture.
Hebrews 10:35
[Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompence of reward.]
Hebrews 11:1-6
[Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. 2 For by it the elders obtained a good report. 3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear. 4 By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh. 5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God. 6 But without faith it is impossible to please him:for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.]
Hebrews 11:1-6 is the only time in the Scripture that actually gives the Scriptural definition of faith. Biblical faith also involves positive confidence that God will reward you if you diligently seek Him.
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fhansen
Oldbie
Basil had it right-and would've agreed with much of what you say I believe. "The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom". Definitely fear has its place-and continues to be healthy in proper doses lest we become over-confident. But this over-confidence occurs, as I see it, more often when people consider themselves to be safe and secure due to nothing more than their self-assessed level of faith. But faith is meant to grow into love, and love is actually commanded by the greatest commandments- it constitutes man's justice or righteousness. And yet it's impossible to force anyone to love-so God seeks to draw us into increasing amounts of this peerless virtue, a virtue that has to do with His very own nature. And this, the true nature of God, is exactly what Jesus came to reveal directly to us-so that we may know and love Him.
It's not about "lovey-feeling", even though feelings are not irrelevant. It's a matter of how much we value someone, based on our knowledge of them. And this is why the first two commandments of the Decalogue are what they are. It's a goal to the extent that we haven't yet achieved it, rather than something to be given up on as if the commandments were never meant to be taken seriously. And it's a goal that is only obtainable with the help of God, by His grace. But I'd agree with anyone who says that the word "love" as it applies to Christianity has often been misunderstood, overused, and abused. BTW, how would you define "God's glory", that you desire to have more of?
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Faith and works. Read the scripture below, further than what I posted, and you'll find those exact words.
Yes, "both", absolutely. It's clear some don't want to see it as real, so I suggest you read the following scripture. All of you, write it on the chalk board... "Faith without works is dead" write it a thousand times if necessary. If you have explanation to make the scripture other that what it is/what I propose it is, especially the favorite explanations, post that/those so we can deal with it. Especially the top/favorite explanations that render the scripture null...surly you have seeked out or been taught a common come back to it?
James 2:14-26 New King James Version (NKJV)
Faith Without Works Is Dead
"14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
18 But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without youra]">[a] works, and I will show you my faith by myb]">[b] works. 19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! 20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?c]">[c] 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? 23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.”d]">[d] And he was called the friend of God. 24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way?
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also."
Almost there, if you like, you may want to look at the above scripture.. there's a mention of that Abraham scripture we were talking about, that tends to come up often on this subject. Some won't post this mention if it, because it was either never brought to their attention or it worked best for them not to, when they are both important.
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I see you are trying to make us feel guilty for the biblical fearing of God (why do you think he threatened us with Hell, lol) and the works that show our faith, but then you throw "pride" into the mix for some reason, as if fearing God just as we should and being obedient equate to a sin..."pride"
Were you hoping we/others would just buy that without question, when there is no connection to "pride" at all? Was that some tricky way to do like some do often with the subject at hand? Something that begs once again for the following?:
Isaiah 5:20King James Version (KJV)
20 Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!
Please, don't make the fear of God or obedience into a bad/"evil" thing...they are not bad, nor do they equate to pride/a sin, as suggested. Or in short, they are good/biblical, not evil.
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Well, to those saying that if we obey God out of fear we will be slaves, I believe there's nothing wrong with being slaves. Paul said that I am a slave to righteousness.
I do not believe that we can enter the Kingdom of Heaven simply by trying to do what the law of God says. I know that Paul said that if we try to enter the Kingdom of Heaven by trying to do what the law says then we are under a curse. No one can ever make it into Heaven by trying to do what the law says. We would have to obey the law 100% of the time. I know that many Christians claim to be perfect, but how long does that take for one thing? People say that our goal is to be perfect, but that can take years if that is the truth. I don't ever believe that I will be perfect. But what if somebody was to die and they are not perfected yet?
I do believe that the only way to heaven is to put our faith in trust in Jesus Christ. But that doesn't mean we shouldn't work. I know that when I sin, I do not want to call upon the name of the Lord Jesus because I feel way too guilty. So I still believe that we are to turn away from sin out of fear of our hearts getting harden.
Jesus said that anybody who comes to him he will accept. I know that many people say will not everybody who calls him Lord Lord will enter the kingdom of heaven. I doubt that actually talking about people who call upon the name of the Lord Jesus. Why would it say that if we put our trust in him we will not be put a shame and then Jesus turns away some people that call upon his name. The point that I'm making is that anybody that comes to him out of fear of God's Wrath is still accepted by Jesus Christ. He did not say but if you come to me out of fear I will not accept you.
Scripture also says that the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom. The fear of the Lord is not define to just reverence if we read the scripture. Jesus said fear God who has the power to throw both soul and body into hell. Jesus also said that if your right hand causes you to sin then cut it off, for it is better for you to go into Heaven maimed then to go into hell with all your body parts. Paul also said it is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of an Angry God.
I need to remember these things myself, for I forget that there's going to be consequences for what I do. But the more and more I talk about hell the more I want to turn from my sin and call upon the name of the Lord Jesus. And I know that if I come to Jesus Christ out of fear of God's Wrath, he will not reject me. But I also know that I will never make it into Heaven by trying to do what the law says.
I do not believe that we can enter the Kingdom of Heaven simply by trying to do what the law of God says. I know that Paul said that if we try to enter the Kingdom of Heaven by trying to do what the law says then we are under a curse. No one can ever make it into Heaven by trying to do what the law says. We would have to obey the law 100% of the time. I know that many Christians claim to be perfect, but how long does that take for one thing? People say that our goal is to be perfect, but that can take years if that is the truth. I don't ever believe that I will be perfect. But what if somebody was to die and they are not perfected yet?
I do believe that the only way to heaven is to put our faith in trust in Jesus Christ. But that doesn't mean we shouldn't work. I know that when I sin, I do not want to call upon the name of the Lord Jesus because I feel way too guilty. So I still believe that we are to turn away from sin out of fear of our hearts getting harden.
Jesus said that anybody who comes to him he will accept. I know that many people say will not everybody who calls him Lord Lord will enter the kingdom of heaven. I doubt that actually talking about people who call upon the name of the Lord Jesus. Why would it say that if we put our trust in him we will not be put a shame and then Jesus turns away some people that call upon his name. The point that I'm making is that anybody that comes to him out of fear of God's Wrath is still accepted by Jesus Christ. He did not say but if you come to me out of fear I will not accept you.
Scripture also says that the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom. The fear of the Lord is not define to just reverence if we read the scripture. Jesus said fear God who has the power to throw both soul and body into hell. Jesus also said that if your right hand causes you to sin then cut it off, for it is better for you to go into Heaven maimed then to go into hell with all your body parts. Paul also said it is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of an Angry God.
I need to remember these things myself, for I forget that there's going to be consequences for what I do. But the more and more I talk about hell the more I want to turn from my sin and call upon the name of the Lord Jesus. And I know that if I come to Jesus Christ out of fear of God's Wrath, he will not reject me. But I also know that I will never make it into Heaven by trying to do what the law says.
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aiki
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And how do you define "the fear of the Lord" that is urged upon born-again believers? The craven, cowering fear of a slave toward a cruel and dangerous master? Or the reverential awe of a creature for his awesome Creator? In relation to the saved person, the latter is what Scripture typically means by the phrase "fear of the Lord."
How do you come to possess God's glory? It's God's glory, isn't it?
God feels no embarrassment. He's God, perfect in every respect. And in His perfection He is not susceptible to embarrassment over your conduct. Embarrassment is something only we feel, not God.
Whether or not it "works for you" has nothing to do with whether or not you ought to do it. God commands you to love Him with all of your being (Matt. 22:36-38) It is also the prime motivation for Christian living. (1 Cor. 13:1-3; 1 Jn. 4:16-19; Jn. 14:15) You cannot walk properly with God under the motivation of fear. It is simply not biblical.
Love has been far, far more powerful a motivator for my obedience to God than fear ever was! I can say this is true also of many fellow believers that I know. It is a sad thing that you've rejected the only basis for obedience that God will accept. What a waste of effort on your part!
What "lovey feeling" do you mean? My love for God is "shed abroad in my heart" by the Holy Spirit (Ro. 5:5) and is not therefore the vacillating, contingent sort of love humans generally exhibit to each other, but the divine love that only comes from God (Ga. 5:22, 23).
Nonsense. Certainly all churches ought to hear teaching on the fear of the Lord from their pulpits, but they ought also to hear about the sole motivation God accepts for our obedience to Him which is love. The First and Great Commandment is not to fear God but to love Him with all of our being.
Oh? And how do you know this, exactly? Do you know personally all of the churches in the world that teach that love ought to be the motive for a believer's obedience? I very much doubt it. But you would have to have some personal familiarity with all such churches to make the claim you do here.
1 Corinthians 13:1-3
1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I have become sounding brass or a clanging cymbal.
2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.
3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, but have not love, it profits me nothing.
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aiki
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I have read the book of James many times. I am familiar with its contents. Good works are merely the external testament to an inward spiritual transformation that God has done. They by no means earn us our salvation and they by no means serve to retain our salvation. They are just the inevitable consequence of the saving work God has accomplished in each of His children.
Titus 3:5-7
5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit,
6 whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior,
7 that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
No, there are different kinds of fear. The fear of God that believers are urged toward in Scripture is not to be the craven fear of slaves under the hand of a cruel and dangerous master, but the reverential awe of the creature for his incredible, awesome Creator. The reverential awe prescribed to the born-again in Scripture is not the fear that I was thinking of, but rather the craven fear of punishment warranted in the lost that doesn't foster a love for God but a desire to protect and preserve the very thing that must die in every believer: Self.
"The guilty flee when no man pursues..."
I haven't made fear of God a bad thing. This is the mistaken conclusion you've come to by neglecting to ask for clarification of terms.
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Oldmantook
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Most all differences of opinion stem from differences of interpretation. Having said that does not Rom 8:13 state that those believers who live according to the flesh reap spiritual death? Would this not conflict with your view that obedience only demonstrates that one is saved but not necessary for eternal life? In Heb 5:9 the word translated as obey is from the Greek word hypakouousin which is a present tense participle. Thus one must be "obeying" - ongoing action in order to have eternal life. If you disobeyed and took the mark of the beast would you still be saved? Respectfully, these considerations appear to mitigate against your view.
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