I have not seen anyone actually disprove what Romans 9 is saying. They have to ignore it and focus on other Scripture to try and contradict it (thus bring Paul himself into question), or else they attack their opponent's character, the chapter is just that inescapable.
Isaiah 29:15-16 and Isaiah 64:7-8 talk about the Potter too.
I don't know much at all about Calvinism, but I know Romans 9, and I believe what Paul is saying. So I'm very interested to read how this thread goes, and how the chapter will be handled.
Thank you!
And praise Yahweh, let this thread be a blessing unto His children, and an inspiration to respect the Master Potter.
Whenever a person is confused (or has a wrong interpretation) on a verse or chapter in the Bible, all they need to do is put Jesus in it and it becomes clear.
In other words, when you read
Romans 9:1-13, you have to read it in terms of how Paul is talking to the Jews (
Romans 9:3-6) and not all individuals and how he is trying to tell them that the purpose of Election of the Promises is thru the line of the Messiah with Jacob's line and not Esau's line.
Romans 9:13 is not saying God literally loved Jacob and literally hated Esau as individuals (cf.
Luke 14:26). Paul is using them as examples of how God was all powerful enough to know which family line to use so as to bring the Promised Messiah (i.e. Jesus). That is what "Election" here is talking about in
Romans 9. It is not talking about individual "Election" but it is talking about the "Election of the Promise" or the genealogical line that Jesus would come thru. The Jews were claiming that they were saved based on being of the seed of Abraham and in keeping God's Laws. But they rejected their Messiah. God does not have to conform to old Jewish ways of thinking just because they rejected their Messiah. He will have mercy on whom He will's in the manner He will's with the Messiah that He has chosen (Which was Jesus Christ).
Now, when you read
Romans 9:14-16: Well, you have to realize that it is talking about God's plan of salvation with Jesus Christ being their Messiah of whom the Jews rejected. God is saying He will have mercy in the WAY God wants to do things and not according to Jewish thoughts or beliefs (Which one of their ways they considered a person to be right with God was thru circumcision - See
Romans 3:1 and
Galatians 5:2).
And when you read
Romans 9:17-18: Well, you have to realize it is making a parallel. For there is a parallel being made of how God is Sovereign and just in setting up the Promised Line of the Messiah (i.e. by having mercy on whom He wills) versus raising up Pharaoh into power to show God's power. How was God's power shown in the life of the Pharoah? By God making the Pharoah wealthy? Not exactly. God allowed Pharoah to be raised up so that God's power was shown in the life of God's miracles being displayed such as the Ten plagues and the parting of the Red Sea. This is why Paraoah was raised up. It was so that God's power (or miracles) could be displayed (and proclaimed to all the Earth). Just as God had chosen the line of the Messiah so as to display His power (and proclaim such a thing to all the Earth). So this was not some kind of point to prove individual election but to prove the Election of the Promised Line of the Messiah (Who is Jesus Christ). For Jesus is the greatest miracle (of the best form of Election) that there is.
Anyways, when you read on down to verse 24 (
Romans 9:24), the point is clear what Paul is really talking about.
As for the potter:
Please read the highlighted colored statements below in regards to the Potter and the clay.
Jeremiah 18:1-13 says,
The word which came to Jeremiah from the LORD saying, “Arise and go down to the potter’s house, and there I will announce My words to you.” Then I went down to the potter’s house, and there he was, making something on the wheel. But the vessel that he was making of clay was spoiled in the hand of the potter; so he remade it into another vessel, as it pleased the potter to make. Then the word of the LORD came to me saying, “
Can I not, O house of Israel,
deal with you as this potter does?” declares the LORD. “Behold, like the clay in the potter’s hand,
so are you in My hand, O house of Israel. At one moment I might speak concerning a nation or concerning a kingdom to uproot, to pull down, or to destroy it;
if that nation against which I have spoken turns from its evil, I will relent concerning the calamity I planned to bring on it. Or at another moment I might speak concerning a nation or concerning a kingdom to build up or to plant it;
if it does evil in My sight by not obeying My voice, then I will think better of the good with which I had promised to bless it. So now then, speak to the men of Judah and against the inhabitants of Jerusalem saying, “Thus says the LORD, ‘Behold, I am fashioning calamity against you and devising a plan against you.
Oh turn back, each of you from his evil way, and reform your ways and your deeds.’
But they will say, ‘It’s hopeless! For we are going to follow our own plans, and each of us will act according to the stubbornness of his evil heart.’ “Therefore thus says the LORD, ‘Ask now among the nations,
who ever heard the like of this? The virgin of Israel has done a
most appalling thing.’”
Such statements (that are in red and blue) do not make sense if God was Calvinistic and He made the clay to be either good or bad according to His own choosing.
I hope this helps, and may God bless you.