Kelly McArthur

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Yes, I agree with that verse you quoted, which is Isaiah 66:24. Some people misunderstand that verse (which Jesus quotes in Mark 9:48). They think the worms and fire are being used to torture living people. But the verse specifically says the worms and fires apply to dead bodies:

NIV Isaiah 66:24 "And they will go out and look on the dead bodies of those who rebelled against me; the worms that eat them will not die, the fire that burns them will not be quenched, and they will be loathsome to all mankind."

It makes sense that worms and fire are being used to dispose of dead bodies. All throughout the world and all throughout history most dead bodies are disposed of either be being buried and decomposed to dust by worms or by being burned to ashes by fire. Very fitting words for annihilationism.

Our bodies are the shell that profits nothing, belongs to this earth, dead, that's the problem and we just don't know who we are. Jesus said he is not from here and that the kingdom is within you. Jesus entered into darkness and walked among us, without him we're lost thinking this world is our home. Wake up!
 
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ClementofA

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I don't think every creature here is referring to evil angels, but animals and such that wait as groaning for when man is redeemed.

Romans 8:22

“For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.”

Romans 8:23

“And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.”

------
Romans 8:21

“Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.”

The book of Revelation speaks of evil spirits. Where do you think they dwell now, in heaven, earth, under the earth, in the sea:

Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are on the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

>Believers and Supporters of Christian Universalism
 
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Kelly McArthur

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Genesis 1:20
“And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.”

Genesis 2:19

“And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.”


Spirit is life giving oxygen, Holy Spirit is God giving life and Christ is above all.
 
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ClementofA

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How long do you think we will have - seas?
Do you agree that there will be times of casting the wickeds into the lake of fire?
So, the devil, all the other evils go into the lake of fire-there smoke starts going up as they are tormented.
Which earth time is it?
Is there a sea on the new earth?
So, how could any wickeds be gaining redemption from their location of the sea?

The verse you try to use to claim redemption for all - is where John heard remarks from various locations - including the sea. The new earth will have no sea.
It is impossible for the verse you keep posting to us to be about eternity as to devils and wicked raised from the dead people.

Revelation 20:13 "And the sea gave up the dead..."
So the wicked can no longer speak from the sea.

Revelation 20:15
"And whosoever...cast into the lake of fire."
So nobody left in the sea of the wickeds and they are all cast into the lake of fire.

Revelation 21:1
"...new earth...no more sea."

You are trying to tell us that the wickeds can get redeemed after they go to the lake of fire, as they will speak from the sea. Revelation clearly shows the sea is empty and then the wickeds that names -not found in the book of life are cast into the lake of fire. It would be impossible for them to be making statements from the sea.


John speaks of a "door open in heaven" and a voice telling him to "come up here" (Rev.4:1). Then he says "I was in the Spirit" (4:2) and at length describes things & events in heaven. From this heavenly perspective "in the Spirit" is revealed to him what is detailed in chapter 5. Everyone in the universe, including the dead and demons, are worshipping the Lamb. This worship (v.13) uses the same worshipful words as the redeemed of vs 9-10 use in v.12. All this being in the context of salvation - "the Lamb that was slain" (v.12 & 13).

That is a description of universal worship, including those in heaven, on & under the earth, on the sea, & all that is in them, making it clear that no one is excluded. Were all actually doing this, worshipping God, in John's time many centuries ago? No. But God calls those things not being as being (Rom.4:17) and sees the end from the beginning (Isa.46:10). He gives this revelation of universal worship to John. Lest any say that it is a vision of the saved in the new earth after the wicked have been annihilated, he includes a reference to the sea, so it is clear he is talking about every being who ever existed before the new earth, Satan included.

This includes everyone in the universe, including the dead and demons:

Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are on the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

John speaks of "every creature" & to emphasize this again he repeats "and all that are in them":

Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are on the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

This worship (v.13) uses the same worshipful words as the redeemed of vs 9-10 use in v.12:

12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.

All this being in the context of salvation - "the Lamb that was slain" (v.12 & 13).

Scholar's Corner: The Center for Bible studies in Christian Universalism
 
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Kelly McArthur

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Hell is this World
  • Yew has the power to transform life from this to the next.
  • The mind is 1st renewed through Christ Jesus; the true life is the soul who is the true child of the living Father; we are called seeds scattered in the field of this earth.
  • The soul is within the organic matter of man, in darkness and sleeps imagining it's awake.
  • Jesus was born of flesh and blood; entered into darkness, died and rose again through the power of God. Now it's Yew's turn to follow after him & he made the way ready for Yew through forgiveness of sins and eternal life. It's time to be born again.
  • Yew "dies" through the good soil and enters into newness of life [matures] with Christ Jesus through renewing the mind; one asks Y.
  • The sun & rain on this earth is called a second reality are only through the First Mystery of Christ the little Yew entered into good soil. There are little Yews who do not enter into the good soil with Christ Jesus lives only for a short while and then dies prematurely; without fruit.
This is not easy to understand so when Yew is able to ask Y questions there is growth. Our minds need to wrap around the truth and look carefully into the fine glass in order to see out there what's in here. Jesus told us he was not from here, this world is not his home and where he is he's prepared a place for you. We work it out with our Lord.

th

  • Isaiah 44:22 word: "I have blotted out your transgressions like a cloud and your sins like mist; return to me, for I have redeemed you. "
 
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Goatee

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Nobody chooses hell.

Only via the life we lead. If we go against what God has said / written then we choose hell if it is a mortal sin etc and we don't repent. I am guilty of that. I do repent though but, I am sure I have a place waiting for me in hell. I hope not but my sinful ways are leading me there!
 
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Mark Corbett

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Only via the life we lead. If we go against what God has said / written then we choose hell if it is a mortal sin etc and we don't repent. I am guilty of that. I do repent though but, I am sure I have a place waiting for me in hell. I hope not but my sinful ways are leading me there!

My brother, whatever sin you have committed Christ's grace is sufficient. It was sufficient for the woman at the well. It was sufficient for Paul, who was a murderer and persecutor of Christians. It is sufficient for you. Your forgiveness and God's gift of eternal life do not depend on how terrible your past is, but on how great God's grace is. Rest in His amazing grace. He loves you.
 
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Goatee

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My brother, whatever sin you have committed Christ's grace is sufficient. It was sufficient for the woman at the well. It was sufficient for Paul, who was a murderer and persecutor of Christians. It is sufficient for you. Your forgiveness and God's gift of eternal life do not depend on how terrible your past is, but on how great God's grace is. Rest in His amazing grace. He loves you.

I don't believe in once saved always saved! We, gave to do our bit too.

We have to lead a life as written by Jesus.
 
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Mark Corbett

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I don't believe in once saved always saved! We, gave to do our bit too.

We have to lead a life as written by Jesus.

Brother, I'm not asking you to believe in "once saved always saved". I'm encouraging you to trust that the sacrifice of Christ, his blood, was enough to forgive ALL your sins. I'm reminding you of His amazing grace. I'm praying that you will be able to grasp the depth and breadth of God's unstoppable love for YOU.
 
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Goatee

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Brother, I'm not asking you to believe in "once saved always saved". I'm encouraging you to trust that the sacrifice of Christ, his blood, was enough to forgive ALL your sins. I'm reminding you of His amazing grace. I'm praying that you will be able to grasp the depth and breadth of God's unstoppable love for YOU.

I understand but, we have to pick up our cross and follow Jesus!

We cannot let Jesus suffer and die so that we have no care in the world.

I take it very seriously if I sin. I cannot and will not let jesus suffer without me suffering too!
 
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Mark Corbett

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I understand but, we have to pick up our cross and follow Jesus!

We cannot let Jesus suffer and die so that we have no care in the world.

I take it very seriously if I sin. I cannot and will not let jesus suffer without me suffering too!

Brother, I'm glad you take your sin very seriously. We all should. I have felt God's discipline for my own sins. God does discipline us when we sin:

NIV Hebrews 12:6 because the Lord disciplines the one he loves, and he chastens everyone he accepts as his son."
If God disciplines you when you sin, it is a sign of His love for you as His son.
 
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ClementofA

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Genesis 1:20
“And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.”

Genesis 2:19

“And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.”

What does that have to do with this:

Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are on the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism

Universalism – The Truth Shall Make You Free

Eternity in the Bible by Gerry Beauchemin – Hope Beyond Hell
 
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With regard to Hell, some people think that it is a place of punishment for sin. Hell is the grave and the soul of a person dies. Ecclesiastes 9:5 says," For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing at all, nor do they have any more reward, because all memory of them is forgotten."(Ecclesiastes 9:5,10)
Adam and Eve's punishment for their serious sin would be death as stated by God and was pronounced and confirmed as such after their disobedience.Whereas if they were obedient they had everlasting life to look forward to.(Genesis ch.2,3;Romans 5:12)
There is no mention of a hellfire or place of torment that they would be subject to, though they selfishly sold their future offspring into the unfair condition of sin and eventual death.
This was in contrast to the gift of life that they had been granted.
Their failure to show respect for God's sovereignty by obeying His command to not eat of the fruit of a tree of His choosing made their punishment fitting and just as determined by God.(Genesis 2,3)





Payback%2Bis%2BHell.jpg


We know that we should not seek to harm those who have harmed us. If fact, we should forgive them and do good to them as the Lord gives opportunity. But putting this truth into practice can be a great challenge when people have faced terrible evil.

I had the incredible privilege of serving the Lord in a Muslim majority nation for fourteen years. I call it a privilege in part because I was able to serve alongside of some incredibly courageous Christians. Here is one short story:

A young lady was learning how to share her faith with her Muslim neighbors. She wanted to do this but was struggling with it. She came to my wife and me for counsel. She told us her story.

Her father had been serving the Lord in a mixed area of Christians and Muslims when Islamic extremists moved in and attacked the area. She was a young girl. After hiding, her family was fortunate to be rescued by the military (the extremists had a militia, but were not part of the government). Her family was placed in the back of a military truck to be driven out of the area to a boat which would take them to relative safety. The truck had boards enclosing the back, but the boards were not tightly fitted so that one could look out the cracks. She looked and saw along the side of the road Christians who had been slaughtered. Now she wanted to reach out to her Muslim neighbors (most of which were not extremists), but this memory made it hard for her.

What do you say to something like that?


The first step in ministering to someone who shares a story like that is taking time to share in their deep hurt. But even for a case this extreme, or rather, especially for cases this extreme, the Bible gives answers.

Part of the answer (a huge, important part) is that Jesus set the amazing example for us by forgiving those who crucified Him. He also offered forgiveness to Paul, who had been involved in persecuting Christians. The blood of Christ is ENOUGH payment for any sin. Even the most terrible, horrifying sins can be forgiven because of the cross.

But not everyone will accept the payment Christ made. In such cases, does the Bible tell us that pay back is wrong? Yes and no. It’s wrong for us to personally seek pay back, but it is not wrong to desire justice, which includes pay back. Paul was writing to a group of Christians who, like the Christians I served among, were facing serious persecution. Notice what he tells them:

2 Thessalonians 1:5 All this is evidence that God's judgment is right, and as a result you will be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are suffering.
6 God is just: He will pay back trouble to those who trouble you
7 and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels.
8 He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.


Notice that Paul does not say “don’t worry about justice”. Paul says God is just and will pay back those who were persecuting the believers. Paul explains that this will happen when Jesus returns. It’s not wrong to want justice, to want pay back. But vengeance is not our job. It’s God job. God promises to avenge, and uses this promise to free us from the burden and danger of seeking vengeance ourselves:

Romans 12:17 Do not repay anyone evil for evil. Be careful to do what is right in the eyes of everyone.
18 If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone.
19 Do not take revenge, my dear friends, but leave room for God's wrath, for it is written: "It is mine to avenge; I will repay," says the Lord.
20 On the contrary: "If your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink. In doing this, you will heap burning coals on his head."
21 Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.


Believing in God’s promise to avenge does not make us angry and vengeful. It frees us to forgive and love. Believing that God is just empowers us to take risks and love our enemies and do good to them, hoping that they will be won to Christ, but knowing that some will continue to reject him and do more evil. We aren’t ignoring justice; we are trusting God’s promise to be just and repay in the end.

I have seen how this truth is part of what God uses to set the hearts of Christians who have seen and suffered terrible evil free to minister to others.

This is one reason I’m concerned about wrong views of Hell. These wrong views of Hell are not consistent with God’s promise to avenge and to pay back, and thus, they undermine this important truth.

How Wrong Views of Hell Can Undermine God’s Promise to Avenge

One popular view of Hell is that it does not really involve any active punishment from God. This popular view says that God simply allows those who prefer not to be in His presence to go on existing without Him. Such an existence is sad and unhappy, but does not involve God actively punishing anyone. This idea may sound attractive to some, but it utterly and totally lacks Biblical support. It is contrary to the repeated and consistent teaching of Scripture. God repeatedly promises to pay back people according to their sins. The Bible portrays God as being active in this. Indeed, God is the one who carries out this vengeance.

Sometimes the “mild version” of Hell is combined with the idea that perhaps the lonely, unhappy inhabitants of Hell can leave whenever they choose to by finally accepting Christ. This is a view held by some universalists. They view the purpose of Hell as being correction and restoration, and they consistently deny any element of vengeance. In doing so, they undermine an important Biblical truth which helps us to forgive and minister to our enemies.

There is another error regarding Hell which undermines the truth that Hell involves “payback”. That is the common and widespread belief that Hell involves eternal torment. One of the many problems with the eternal torment view is that the Bible teaches that God will punish the unrighteous “according to what they have done” (Romans 2:6). Some people have committed a lot of terrible sins, but no person has caused any other person torment that lasts longer than billions of years. So why should the payback involve way more than billions of years of torment? A belief in eternal torment is a distortion of God’s justice and promise to repay. There is a further problem with eternal torment with regard to God promising to repay.

If unrighteous people really did deserve to be tortured for eternity then how does God ever fulfill His promise to repay sinners? If the unrighteous “owe” an eternity of suffering as payment for their sins, then even after a million trillion years of torment they would have repaid far less than 1/1000th of 1% of the debt they apparently owe. In this view justice is NEVER complete or fulfilled.

The view which best fits with God’s promise to repay is annihilationism. God will repay each person according to their sins. The final outcome is that they perish (John 3:16), are destroyed by God in both body and soul (Matthew 10:28), and they are burned to ashes (2 Peter 2:6). This second death is permanent, it is eternal, and is itself the primary punishment for sins which is most emphasized throughout Scripture. However, just as death in this life may be preceded by various amounts of suffering, the “second death” also will be preceded by some suffering which will be truly just. God will repay.

What do you think? Do you agree that final punishment involves "payback"? Which view of Hell (eternal conscious torment, universalism, or annihilationism) seems most harmonious with the Biblical teaching of "payback"?


This is a slightly modified (hopefully improved) version of a post on my blog.
 
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