Interesting accumulation of text comparisons

LawrenceRaymond

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This work of Raphael Lataster that I contributed to discusses split-words, idioms, and many other issues. Concerning the first entry, "Burn or Boast", Dr. Bruce Metzger considers the "burn" reading to be "a grammatical monstrosity that cannot be attributed to Paul"...

Was the New Testament Really Written in Greek?
 

TaylorSexton

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Well, there's a reason why this is self-published and must be accessed via Archive.org and similar websites. It's the same reason why students are not allowed to cite Wikipedia in research papers.

In the end, who are we going to trust? The myriads of textual critics from all sorts of Christian denominations and theological traditions who for the most part agree—many having several doctorates a piece in their respective field, many having done extensive work with actual, existing manuscripts, and many having published often thousands of pages of material in their specific area of expertise—or a lone internet conspiracy theorist, who cannot even seem to get himself published through even a liberal publishing house, and must therefore resort to self-publishing?

...by the way, it is more than fallacious to use Metzger's comment about "burn or boast," which is about a textual variant in the Greek manuscripts, as evidence that the New Testament was not written in Greek, a thesis at which, quite frankly, Metzger himself would have scoffed.
 
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LawrenceRaymond

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Well, there's a reason why this is self-published and must be accessed via Archive.org and similar websites. It's the same reason why students are not allowed to cite Wikipedia in research papers.

In the end, who are we going to trust? The myriads of textual critics from all sorts of Christian denominations and theological traditions who for the most part agree—many having several doctorates a piece in their respective field, many having done extensive work with actual, existing manuscripts, and many having published often thousands of pages of material in their specific area of expertise—or a lone internet conspiracy theorist, who cannot even seem to get himself published through even a liberal publishing house, and must therefore resort to self-publishing?

...by the way, it is more than fallacious to use Metzger's comment about "burn or boast," which is about a textual variant in the Greek manuscripts, as evidence that the New Testament was not written in Greek, a thesis at which, quite frankly, Metzger himself would have scoffed.

Don't give up on me yet....Let me try one more time with William Norton (his talent for writing lengthy but thought-provoking introductions is phenomenal)..... A translation, in English daily used, of the Peshito-Syriac text, and of the received Greek text, of Hebrews, James, 1 Peter, and 1 John : with an introduction on the Peshito-Syriac text, and the revised Greek text of 1881 : Norton, William : Free Download & Streaming : Internet Archive
 
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Neal of Zebulun

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Acts of the Apostles 26:
14 And when we were all fallen to the earth, I heard a voice speaking unto me, and saying in the Hebrew tongue, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.

That word in the Greek is Εβραιδι which looks very much like עברי, where we get the word "Hebrew" from. You'll notice that it doesn't look like ארם, or "Aram," aka "Aramaic," aka "Syriac."

Before anyone goes off on a tirade, I'm not the one saying this. The Greek is clearly saying that Yahushua Christ was speaking Hebrew, which Paul spoke as well: (Acts of the Apostles 21:40, Acts of the Apostles 22:2)

Also, the Aramaic has the word "עבראית" in Acts 21:40, which clearly looks like עברי, "Hebrew."

Unless we are to doubt what the Greek and Aramaic is saying here, it seems that Hebrew, as well as Greek, as well as Aramaic were all being spoken back in the days of Christ.

The autographs of the Gospels and letters were probably in multiple languages.

Praise Yahweh!
 
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Radagast

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Yes, the New Testament was written in Greek.

That word in the Greek is Εβραιδι which looks very much like עברי, where we get the word "Hebrew" from. You'll notice that it doesn't look like ארם, or "Aram," aka "Aramaic," aka "Syriac."

What it "looks like" has no particular relevance.

The word Ἑβραΐς or Ἑβραϊστί (Ἑβραΐδι is the dative case of Ἑβραΐς) refers to the language Hebrew people spoke.

The NT gives us examples of this language, such as "Gabbatha" and "Golgotha." These names are Aramaic, not Hebrew. Hebrew would have "Ha-" at the front of the word, instead of "-tha" at the end.
 
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Neal of Zebulun

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Yes, the New Testament was written in Greek.



What it "looks like" has no particular relevance.

The word Ἑβραΐς or Ἑβραϊστί (Ἑβραΐδι is the dative case of Ἑβραΐς) refers to the language Hebrew people spoke.

The NT gives us examples of this language, such as "Gabbatha" and "Golgotha." These names are Aramaic, not Hebrew. Hebrew would have "Ha-" at the front of the word, instead of "-tha" at the end.

Of course what the word looks like matters. It's evidently referring to Hebrew, and not Aramaic, which is a different word. This is why it's translated as "Hebrew" in the translations I've seen.

Pointing out the Aramaisms in the Greek potentially lends itself to the OP, but even so, none of us have certainty that the Aramaic itself isn't a translation of Hebrew originals. And that doesn't discount the strong potentiality that parts of the NT were originally in Greek.

You cannot actually prove that the entire NT was originally written in the Greek, because we don't have the originals. That doesn't mean we can't reason about it. For instance, Luke's was probably Greek, whereas Matthew's was probably Hebrew because of their target audiences.

But you come off as antagonistic without reason. It's very disturbing to me that you seem to have such a hatred for anything that is not Greek. The first time I posted with you about another topic was a similar experience. It's not good that you bully people with your beliefs. I suspect that you very much dislike me because I have an appreciation for the Hebrew OT, whereas you prefer the Greek OT, which is a translation of the Hebrew.

If you can't be a little more friendly I will refrain from speaking with you further on this matter and probably others, and I will be left with the impression that most of what you say can be disregarded as hot air.
 
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Radagast

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It's evidently referring to Hebrew, and not Aramaic

"Evident" to you, perhaps. In fact, Ἑβραΐς or Ἑβραϊστί in the NT refers to Aramaic. As far as I know, scholars are in total agreement on this.

And, as I said, the NT gives us examples of the Ἑβραΐς / Ἑβραϊστί language, such as "Gabbatha" and "Golgotha." These names are Aramaic, not Hebrew. Hebrew would have "Ha-" at the front of the word, instead of "-tha" at the end.

Matthew's was probably Hebrew because of their target audiences.

According to Church tradition, Matthew wrote The Sayings of Our Lord in Aramaic, this was then translated into Greek, and forms the basis for our Gospel of Matthew (and probably Luke as well).

But you come off as antagonistic without reason.

My concern is for the truth, and for the New Testament as God gave it to us. And I notice that you didn't actually respond to the facts in my last post, but just launched into a lengthy personal attack instead.

whereas you prefer the Greek OT, which is a translation of the Hebrew.

Sorry, where did I say that, exactly?
 
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Neal of Zebulun

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"Evident" to you, perhaps. In fact, Ἑβραΐς or Ἑβραϊστί in the NT refers to Aramaic. As far as I know, scholars are in total agreement on this.

And, as I said, the NT gives us examples of the Ἑβραΐς / Ἑβραϊστί language, such as "Gabbatha" and "Golgotha." These names are Aramaic, not Hebrew. Hebrew would have "Ha-" at the front of the word, instead of "-tha" at the end.



According to Church tradition, Matthew wrote The Sayings of Our Lord in Aramaic, this was then translated into Greek, and forms the basis for our Gospel of Matthew (and probably Luke as well).



My concern is for the truth, and for the New Testament as God gave it to us. And I notice that you didn't actually respond to the facts in my last post, but just launched into a lengthy personal attack instead.



Sorry, where did I say that, exactly?

You.
Are.
Not.
All.
Knowing.

I did not ignore the Aramaisms you brought up, and you can see that I clearly agreed with you on this point in the last post. Another one I was studying a while ago is Satan-a.

Notice that you have stated something that does not coincide with your original position, by mentioning Sayings of our Lord in Aramaic.

I said I suspect that you prefer the Greek OT. It's alright if I'm wrong in that suspicion. It's just that I've had problems with another member because I believe the Hebrew overrides the Greek.

And it is evident that scholars agree it should be "Hebrew" and not "Aramaic," or else they wouldn't translate it as "Hebrew."

Seriously, you need to take a chill pill and be friendly. You are pushing me away. You are attacking me, I did not initiate this conversation with you, but I'm about to end it if you can't take a step back and see how you have wrongfully treated me, like I'm a completely ignorant unlearning idiot.

Am I not allowed to say I don't like the way you treat me?
 
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Radagast

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I did not ignore the Aramaisms you brought up, and you can see that I clearly agreed with you on this point in the last post.

But if all the NT examples of the Ἑβραΐς / Ἑβραϊστί language are Aramaic, doesn't that indicate that the Ἑβραΐς / Ἑβραϊστί language was Aramaic?

There is, after all, no other word for Aramaic in the NT.

Notice that you have stated something that does not coincide with your original position, by mentioning Sayings of our Lord in Aramaic.

I've mentioned it before. Often enough to bore the pants off people, probably.

And it is evident that scholars agree it should be "Hebrew" and not "Aramaic," or else they wouldn't translate it as "Hebrew."

Doing a quick check, the NIV, CSB, NLT, and CEV all translate "Aramaic" in the main text. Every commentary I've checked also says "Aramaic." Ditto every Greek lexicon.
 
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Neal of Zebulun

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But if all the NT examples of the Ἑβραΐς / Ἑβραϊστί language are Aramaic, doesn't that indicate that the Ἑβραΐς / Ἑβραϊστί language was Aramaic?

There is, after all, no other word for Aramaic in the NT.



I've mentioned it before. Often enough to bore the pants off people, probably.



Doing a quick check, the NIV, CSB, NLT, and CEV all translate "Aramaic" in the main text. Every commentary I've checked also says "Aramaic." Ditto every Greek lexicon.

Maybe those translations are all from the same critical edition? Here's a bigger list, it almost seems half and half. (The Aramaic translation in the list is interesting, but needs to be verified imo.) I'm curious if it's a different Greek word. But you could be right, maybe in the Greek mind, "עברי" and "ארם" don't warrant enough of a difference to be distinct, but they certainly do in the Hebrew mind.

Not all examples are necessarily Aramaic, there is one example of just "Satan" in the NT without the Aramaic article, somewhere in Paul, I can find it for you tomorrow, but I sense you can find it before then. Compare it to where "Satana" is in the text. Other examples may or may not be the exact same in both Hebrew and Aramaic, like "HalleluYah" and "amen" (just off the top of my head here, it deserves more study.)

It's interesting, the Septuagint has more examples of just "satan" without the article. I'm curious now to look up if the Greek for "the devil" comes up in the Septuagint at all because I have a hunch the Hebrew will be השטן wherever that shows up. There seems to be a disagreement between the use of the article in Hebrew and Aramaic with this word, almost like "Satana" is a proper noun in Aramaic, where it's not always so in Hebrew.

But even so, even if all the words were their Aramaic variants in the Greek, it doesn't necessarily discount the possibility that those parts in Greek might be a translation of an Aramaic translation of Hebrew. (The oldest Aramaic is about 200 AD iirmc. I don't know the oldest Greek copy, but even just a hundred years is a long time!)

Keep in mind, there is a trend in translation/copying to "harmonize" text, so any place we find Hebrew where we would expect Aramaic lends itself to the above paragraph.

Also consider that languages don't change drastically, there is usually a fading of the older more difficult language into the newer easier one, like high and low Deutsch I would think is a decent example.

I've got to go to bed! Good night!

Praise Yahweh
 
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Radagast

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Maybe those translations are all from the same critical edition?

I don't see how the "critical edition" makes any difference. There's no disagreement on which Greek word is used.

Here's a bigger list, it almost seems half and half.

Old translations like the KJV certainly all say "Hebrew," I grant you that.

Not all examples are necessarily Aramaic, there is one example of just "Satan" in the NT without the Aramaic article

"Satan" in the NT is a Greek name, albeit originally deriving from Aramaic or Hebrew. It declines as a Greek 3rd declension proper noun (with a Doric genitive): Σατανᾶς / Σατανᾶν / Σατανᾶ.

Normally "Saul" (Σαῦλος) is a Greek name (and declines as such), but in Acts 9:4 it is quoted in the Aramaic or Hebrew form (Σαούλ). I'm not sure if you can tell anything from the name itself, but obviously the options in Acts 9:4 are:
  • Jesus spoke in Aramaic, with an Aramaic name
  • Jesus spoke in Aramaic, with a Hebrew name (quite likely, given Saul's background)
  • Jesus spoke in Hebrew, with a Hebrew name (i.e. Ἑβραΐς means "Hebrew" here, although it usually means "Aramaic")

It's interesting, the Septuagint has more examples of just "satan" without the article. I'm curious now to look up if the Greek for "the devil" comes up in the Septuagint at all

From memory, the LXX often has "the Devil" (ὁ διάβολος) rather than "Satan."

But even so, even if all the words were their Aramaic variants in the Greek, it doesn't necessarily discount the possibility that those parts in Greek might be a translation of an Aramaic translation of Hebrew.

Come on, that really is a stretch. It's pretty clear that Aramaic was the usual language in 1st century Palestine. And the Aramaic quotes in the NT are mostly places where the original words (usually of Jesus) are quoted directly.

The oldest Aramaic is about 200 AD iirmc. I don't know the oldest Greek copy, but even just a hundred years is a long time!

Not sure what you mean there. Do you mean oldest Aramaic NT manuscript? It seems clear that the Aramaic NT was translated from the Greek.

Or did you mean the language? The switch from Hebrew to Aramaic as the Jewish language is much older, with the more recent parts of the OT being written in (or partly in) Aramaic.
 
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Neal of Zebulun

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I don't see how the "critical edition" makes any difference. There's no disagreement on which Greek word is used.

Sometimes a critical edition has a different Greek word, but I checked the Nestle-Aland 28 ( I don't know if that's what they were using or not) and it does have the same Greek word Εβραιδι.

Old translations like the KJV certainly all say "Hebrew," I grant you that.

Old doesn't mean wrong. If I made a new copy of a codex and introduced changes in words that do not reflect the original, the new copy is not better.

I want to point out that the word "Hebrew" comes from a word that is better transliterated as "Ebrie," which comes from the Hebrew word "Eber," like the patriarch. Just looking at the Greek, I can see a similarity between Εβραις and "Ebrie," and hardly any at all with "Aram." I think this is a valid distinction, as do many translators new and old, such as the rather recent Berean Bible translation which has "Hebrew" in the literal version, and "Aramaic" in their study version, which is more interpretive than the literal. Both have footnotes referring to the other rendering.

"Satan" in the NT is a Greek name, albeit originally deriving from Aramaic or Hebrew. It declines as a Greek 3rd declension proper noun (with a Doric genitive): Σατανᾶς / Σατανᾶν / Σατανᾶ.

From memory, the LXX often has "the Devil" (ὁ διάβολος) rather than "Satan."

I found it, 2 Corinthians 12:7 uses just σαταν in "messenger of Satan" and not Satana. It's Strong's #G4566, also found in 1 Kings 11:14, 1 Kings 11:23, 1 Kings 11:25, 1 Chronicles 21:1. In each occurrence the Hebrew is שטן without the article.

Whereas the instances of ο διαβολος when referring to the devil in the Septuagint are almost all translated from השטן, the only exception being שטן without the article in Psalms 109:6.

Job 1:6, Job 1:7, Job 1:9, Job 1:12, Job 2:1, Job 2:2, Job 2:3, Job 2:4, Job 2:6, Job 2:7, Zechariah 3:1, Zechariah 3:2 are all השטן, which covers all the instances of השטן in the OT, except Job 1:8 where the Septuagint replaces השטן with an unrelated word.

The point is that the NT uses the phrase ο διαβολος too, where the Aramaic, at least in Matthew 4:1 where I checked, has קרצא (the accuser,) and not שטנא (satana.)

But in 2 Corinthians 12:7 in the Aramaic, it's not שטן like we would expect, it's שטנא (Satana) again! So the Greek has the pattern of the Septuagint (which is a Hebrew translation) and not the Aramaic.

Normally "Saul" (Σαῦλος) is a Greek name (and declines as such), but in Acts 9:4 it is quoted in the Aramaic or Hebrew form (Σαούλ). I'm not sure if you can tell anything from the name itself, but obviously the options in Acts 9:4 are:
  • Jesus spoke in Aramaic, with an Aramaic name
  • Jesus spoke in Aramaic, with a Hebrew name (quite likely, given Saul's background)
  • Jesus spoke in Hebrew, with a Hebrew name (i.e. Ἑβραΐς means "Hebrew" here, although it usually means "Aramaic")

That's interesting that the Greek has a different form for the name there. The Aramaic is still שאול concerning the radicals. But it is a strange fact that names in Hebrew have variations in form. Do you find other variations for Hebrew names like this in the NT, like in Matthew 1, Luke 3?

I'm not decided on which it is, just so you know. I don't think it's a matter of life or death either. But I do think it's worth studying the origins of the various texts.

Come on, that really is a stretch. It's pretty clear that Aramaic was the usual language in 1st century Palestine. And the Aramaic quotes in the NT are mostly places where the original words (usually of Jesus) are quoted directly.

Could it be that Aramaic was the common tongue for the lower classes, and the Hebrew for the upper classes? Paul as a Pharisee would have had opportunity to study the Hebrew manuscripts up close, whereas say John the fisherman, probably not so much! So it could be that Paul would write in Hebrew every now and then, and John in Aramaic, and probably both in Greek.

Also, it's interesting that in Luke 4:16-21 Christ is reading from a book. I'd be curious to know if that was the Hebrew, or if it was an Aramaic translation, (and I've heard some contend that it could even be the Septuagint, which I think is the least likely.)

Not sure what you mean there. Do you mean oldest Aramaic NT manuscript? It seems clear that the Aramaic NT was translated from the Greek.

Or did you mean the language? The switch from Hebrew to Aramaic as the Jewish language is much older, with the more recent parts of the OT being written in (or partly in) Aramaic.

That's not exactly the case. Here are the parts in the OT that are in Aramaic I'm aware of (there may be more): Daniel 2:4-7:28, Ezra 4:8-6:18, 7:12-26, Jeremiah 10:11, Genesis 31:47, and perhaps a smattering of a few names here in there in Chronicles. There's not a single book that is entirely Aramaic, and you'll notice that it can be context based when the text switches to Aramaic, e.g. Ezra 4:7 right before a letter written in Aramaic starts.

Keep in mind that Aramaic is an old language that was spoken by whom we call the Syrians, whose capital is Damascus, who had many interactions with Israel recorded in Kings, Chronicles, and else where in history, and that apparently the Persians were communicating to the Hebrews with it in Ezra.

The Aramaic copy I'm looking at I think is from about 200 A.D. (which is before the oldest extant Greek copy if I'm not incorrect) and it probably does have elements of translation from the Greek in it. Like I said in my first post, I think it's very reasonable to think that the NT autographs of the Gospels and letters were written in multiple languages, and translated into one language when a compilation was made.
 
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Neal of Zebulun

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@Radagast
P.S. Just occurred to me to check the Nestle-Aland 28th, and they have σατανᾶ in 2 Corinthians 12:7, which is an eclectic critical edition of the Greek. I'm not sure where to look up their apparatus to determine which source text they took this from, or if they are simply harmonizing the text. Also Nestle 1904 has Σατανᾶ, and SBL's eclectic as well, which has a footnote. Not all source texts agree on this issue, Stephanus 1550 and Scrivener 1984 which are both Textus Receptus have σαταν. I see the Apostolic Bible Polyglot has σαταν as well, which is what I was studying.

I enjoy studying these issues. I'm not advocating one position against another, or that we should throw out one language in preference to another. I'm actually very much interested in how the written Word came about in all of the languages! (Like how you mentioned the Aramaic sayings of Yahushua. I was reading about this issue concerning the theories of how we got the Synoptic Gospels, very interesting.)
 
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Radagast

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Old doesn't mean wrong.

I was talking about old translations.

I want to point out that the word "Hebrew" comes from a word that is better transliterated as "Ebrie," which comes from the Hebrew word "Eber," like the patriarch. Just looking at the Greek, I can see a similarity between Εβραις and "Ebrie,"

"Comes from" is different from "means."

Could it be that Aramaic was the common tongue for the lower classes, and the Hebrew for the upper classes?

Archaeological evidence AFAIK suggests Aramaic for the rural poor, Greek for the educated, and Hebrew for a very small group of Pharisees.

The Aramaic copy I'm looking at I think is from about 200 A.D. (which is before the oldest extant Greek copy if I'm not incorrect) and it probably does have elements of translation from the Greek in it.

The Greek NT was written in the 1st century, and the oldest manuscript evidence is from the 2nd century. The Aramaic NT was probably translated from the Greek in the 2nd century, but the the oldest manuscript evidence is from the 5th or 6th century (Codex Phillipps 1388). So the Greek is much, much older.

Like I said in my first post, I think it's very reasonable to think that the NT autographs of the Gospels and letters were written in multiple languages, and translated into one language when a compilation was made.

I don't think there's a shred of evidence for that, and the text suggests otherwise.
 
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Neal of Zebulun

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I was talking about old translations.

Alright, but new still doesn't necessarily mean better.

"Comes from" is different from "means."

The root and stems of a word usually have a large impact on its meaning.

For instance, Ebrie the language comes from Ebrie the people comes from Eber the ancestor of that people. There's a clear relation.

It's interesting that not just the Greek uses a word rooted from Eber (עבר), but the Aramaic text I was looking at does too: עבראית.

This is opposed to the OT, which uses Aram (ארם) for Aramaic.

I do not see it as an open and shut case either way. I would be interested to know how it is that Ebrie came to mean Aram if that is the actually what happened.

The Greek NT was written in the 1st century, and the oldest manuscript evidence is from the 2nd century. The Aramaic NT was probably translated from the Greek in the 2nd century, but the the oldest manuscript evidence is from the 5th or 6th century (Codex Phillipps 1388). So the Greek is much, much older.

You're probably right. I honestly can't remember where I heard that date from, but I suspect it's wrong now. Thanks for the info.

I don't think there's a shred of evidence for that, and the text suggests otherwise.

Oh come on! You brought up the Aramaic sayings of Christ. Why is it so hard to believe that not everyone was writing in Greek!
 
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