Liberal Christians

Grip Docility

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Then liberal needs to be defined, which is lacking, but is assumed to be what it denotes in the West.

A few questions for anyone:

Do you oppose
  1. Homosexual marriage?
  2. Transgender surgery under certain conditions?
  3. Sexual relations before marriage?
  4. Cohabitation as a alternative to marriage?
  5. Abortion outside (perhaps) of danger to life?
  6. Forbidding any corporal discipline of children, if warranted and conditional?
  7. Forbidding government to sanction any prayer or affirmation of any religion in general?
  8. Forbidding artists the right to refuse to create works for causes that offend them?
  9. Forbidding citizens rights to bear arms, if conditional (type and vetting)
  10. Forbidding capital punishment (even as per criteria in Scripture, but with exclusion for religious crimes)?
  11. Rejection of any positional/functional distinctions btwn male and female in marriage and church government?
  12. Open borders?
  13. Increased Muslim immigration?
  14. Equal rights and benefits to illegal immigrants?
  15. Increased government spending on social programs per capita?
  16. Smaller military?
  17. Rejection of the any just war premise?
  18. Increased funding for the EPA
  19. Increased funding for the UN?
  20. Forbidding "Right to work" statutes?
I think (if I have worded these correctly) I oppose all these.

This is all an attempt to hyphenate Jesus!

This is all Politiocal! This isn’t Christianity, but office politics discussion!
 
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Bible Highlighter

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Then liberal needs to be defined, which is lacking, but is assumed to be what it denotes in the West.

A few questions for anyone:

Do you oppose
  1. Homosexual marriage?
  2. Transgender surgery under certain conditions?
  3. Sexual relations before marriage?
  4. Cohabitation as a alternative to marriage?
  5. Abortion outside (perhaps) of danger to life?
  6. Forbidding any corporal discipline of children, if warranted and conditional?
  7. Forbidding government to sanction any prayer or affirmation of any religion in general?
  8. Forbidding artists the right to refuse to create works for causes that offend them?
  9. Forbidding citizens rights to bear arms, if conditional (type and vetting)
  10. Forbidding capital punishment (even as per criteria in Scripture, but with exclusion for religious crimes)?
  11. Rejection of any positional/functional distinctions btwn male and female in marriage and church government?
  12. Open borders?
  13. Increased Muslim immigration?
  14. Equal rights and benefits to illegal immigrants?
  15. Increased government spending on social programs per capita?
  16. Smaller military?
  17. Rejection of the any just war premise?
  18. Increased funding for the EPA
  19. Increased funding for the UN?
  20. Forbidding "Right to work" statutes?
I think (if I have worded these correctly) I oppose all these.

I would agree with 1-8 (But my opposition to these things stands within preaching the gospel and Scripture and in loving God and my neighbor).

As for number 9 and others relating to bearing arms and war; That would be a tough one for me.

I realize nations do need to defend themselves and execute justice as per Romans 13; Yet, on the other hand, I believe that Jesus teaches me as a Christian to be a New Testament Pacifist.

I would say a nation needs to protect itself, but we as believers are not a nation (like Israel). We are of a different Kingdom. Here are my reasons biblically for standing behind New Testament Pacifism.

(moved) Pacifism as Taught in the New Testament is Moral and Good.

But for the most part I agree with a lot on your list, though.

Thank you for sharing;
And may God's love shine upon you this fine day.
 
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JackRT

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What does the bible, alone as in sola scriptura, have to say about liberalism?

Isaiah 32:5-8 "The vile person shall be no more called liberal, nor the churl said to be bountiful. For the vile person will speak villainy, and his heart will work iniquity, to practice hypocrisy, and to utter error against the Lord, to make empty the soul of the hungry, and he will cause the drink of the thirsty to fail. The instruments of the churl are evil: he deviseth wicked devices to destroy the poor with lying words, even when the needy speak right. But the liberal deviseth liberal things; and by liberal things shall he stand."


Here Isaiah suggests that at one time vile persons were mistakenly honoured by being called 'liberal'. He goes on to describe exactly what a vile person is in stark contrast to the liberal person who shuns evil deeds. The liberal person stands righteous before God on the basis of his deeds.
 
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hedrick

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CF rules don't permit use of the obvious examples. I'm not sure how to respond usefully. There is in fact a whole liberal theology and ethics, with similar scope to both conservative Protestant and Catholic theology and ethics. But I'm not sure how to present a whole systematic theology in forum posts.

I've tried with the theological aspects in various posts in this thread: What do liberal Christians believe?. I don't think it makes sense to duplicate that theological discussion here.

The ethical discussion can't be done at all here. Look at the SOP for Christian Philosophy and Ethics. You'll find that only the political implications can be discussed.
 
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FireDragon76

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Hedrick, while I generally agree with you, on this point I must point out that Luther in some ways was more conservative than Rome, since the practices Rome was defending, and that Luther was protesting, were innovations based on scholastic theology and assumed power of the papacy to judge the deposit of the faith.

I think some liberal Christians, such as myself, are not so "Liberal" in the sense of freewheeling theology, but like Luther, we merely want to emphasize what is essential to the Christian faith, and not idolize that which is secondary. We are not culture warriors that fear a loss of Christendom's privilege, we want to be servants of Jesus in spiritually confusing times.
 
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hedrick

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Hedrick, while I generally agree with you, on this point I must point out that Luther in some ways was more conservative than Rome, since the practices Rome was defending, and that Luther was protesting, were innovations based on scholastic theology and assumed power of the papacy to judge the deposit of the faith.
Sure. And modern liberals typically adopt models of the atonement that are earlier than penal substitution. There's also been interest in ancient ideas on Christology, though I'm not sure that in the end that led to anything. But I think new scholarship was a significant basis for Luther. More so for Calvin possibly.
 
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High Fidelity

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im a hardcore conservative Christian. I have always thought that conservative views go hand and hang with Christianity. Morals. Values. Standards. These are things I thought Christians should stand up for.

I can understand how some economic views such as capitalism and like healthcare can be controversial for anyone (including Christians) but issues such as abortion, gay rights, transgenderism, islam, - aren't these topics that all Christian's should be consistent with opposing? I mean, the Bible does support opposing it... so if Christians support scripture, why are some Christians liberal??? like shouldn't Christians be conservative?

I know a couple people who claim they are Christian but also have very liberal ideas. for example, this girl i met recently is basically a hardcore feminist, anti-trump, it seems her idealogy cannot support Christian values. This is just one example, I know so many Christians that are liberal. and i just dont understand

thoughts?

I dont wanna start a debate here, i am just genuinely concerned for the way our society is moving - LIBERAL. :)

A person is liberal if they dislike Trump?

I don't know how a Christian taking their faith seriously can like Trump.

I am theologically conservative, but there is an astonishing amount of hypocrisy around conservative Christians when it comes to politics; homosexuality is assaulted constantly(yes, Scripture clearly states it's wrong) and yet gluttony, lying, greed and other sins are overlooked and often embraced.

If someone argues that they voted for Trump so the Republicans at large could make progress, okay, I can understand that... but to defend someone whose actions, past and present, are nothing but an affront to Christian values is nothing short of utter, utter hypocrisy and, as far as I'm concerned, a failure in the Christian's stewardship as an ambassador for Christ.
 
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FireDragon76

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Sure. And modern liberals typically adopt models of the atonement that are earlier than penal substitution. There's also been interest in ancient ideas on Christology, though I'm not sure that in the end that led to anything. But I think new scholarship was a significant basis for Luther. More so for Calvin possibly.

Many people, Protestant and Catholic, at the time were influenced by the emerging humanist scholarship. Humanism is what lead people to question the Donation of Constantine, discover it was a pious forgery, and realize the papacy rested on far less certain grounds than had been assumed. Combined with the circus of the Papal Schism (3 popes all fighting for each other), and it's not hard to see that religion at the time rested on shaky grounds. Luther was looking for a more certain ground for faith than the whims of one man... as were many Christians at the time.

In some ways that's a very conservative attitude. Luther could have simply become a skeptic like DaVinci, or dabbled in Hermeticism like Pico di Mirandola, but he chose to continue to believe the old creaky Ark had something to offer the world, that there must be some treasure hidden away in there somewhere.

I do not mean to insult Calvin as he was a prodigious theologian in his own right, but he was not as complicated a man as Luther. Luther embodies so many seeming contradictions. He was the first significant modern theologian and yet deeply in debt to a medieval heritage all at the same time. So you are right to see a distinction between Calvin and Luther in terms of their influences.

This is one reason we need to be careful with the labels "liberal" and "conservative". I'm glad you pointed out days ago that at one time, things were more fluid in evangelicalism and people were more willing to read from different sources without partisanship. I really think its due to the politicization of religion in the US that happened in the late 70's and 80's, combined with the general cultural trend towards conservativism, which I think has finally broken. We are starting to see more evangelical Christians from the broad pietis tradition in the US walking away from being so polemical.
 
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Isaiah 32:5-8 "The vile person shall be no more called liberal, nor the churl said to be bountiful. For the vile person will speak villainy, and his heart will work iniquity, to practice hypocrisy, and to utter error against the Lord, to make empty the soul of the hungry, and he will cause the drink of the thirsty to fail. The instruments of the churl are evil: he deviseth wicked devices to destroy the poor with lying words, even when the needy speak right. But the liberal deviseth liberal things; and by liberal things shall he stand."


Here Isaiah suggests that at one time vile persons were mistakenly honoured by being called 'liberal'. He goes on to describe exactly what a vile person is in stark contrast to the liberal person who shuns evil deeds. The liberal person stands righteous before God on the basis of his deeds.

I love Webster’s 1913 dictionary. It says this for the word Liberal.

Pronunciation: lĭb´ẽr`al
a. 1. Free by birth; hence, befitting a freeman or gentleman; refined; noble; independent; free; not servile or mean; as, a liberalancestry; a liberal spirit; liberal arts or studies.
2. Bestowing in a large and noble way, as a freeman; generous; bounteous; open-handed; as, a liberal giver.
Infinitely good, and of his good
As liberal and free as infinite.
- Milton.

Source:
Liberal | Definition of Liberal by Webster's Online Dictionary

Meaning, it is talking about being “noble” and “generous” in the KJV (during the times of the 1600’s).

In other words, “righteous.”

But “liberal” has taken on a new meaning today in Christendom. We don’t speak and write like we do in 1600’s anymore. Liberal today (among Christians) means to interpret Scripture and Christian values liberally or loosely. We cannot ignore this anymore than how the word “gay” has changed over the years.
 
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jmldn2

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As someone with a disability I disagree about the self-sufficient part. I am high functioning but am on SSI and know I will never be able to work a full time job and make enough to support myself. What happened to make me the way I am was completely out of my control.

I am around people with various disabilities during a day program I attend. Some are high functioning like me but need support in certain areas. Others are very low functioning and are unable to make basic decisions like what to have for lunch. Those people are not going to ever be self-sufficient and will likely live in a group home after their parents die. I think it is vital to have programs and other options in place for people who cannot support themselves.

There are communities where people with disabilities can live and receive help with tasks. I am looking into one of those.

Others end up with a disability that leaves them in need of support after an accident or serious illness. That could be any one of us. I count my blessings that I am able to do what I can.

I will never be able to support myself fully, but I do trust God to guide me and that He has a plan for me. Which includes living in a place where I can be as independent as possible yet receive the help I need.


Thank you for your post and I agree in the matter of assistance for those who need it.

I guess my meaning was not clear about how what I think about self-reliance and self-sufficiency. There are those who believe they can do anything under their own power and in effect, don't need God as helping. Or perhaps they believe God will help, after they do all they can first. So what I meant was that none of us can do all we can for ourselves without the assistance and guidance of God. Man sometimes becomes puffed up with pride and considers he needs no help from the heavenly Father for any of his needs or else just concludes that he can do it all.

I commend you for doing what you can personally for your needs and all the while knowing that God will never leave you nor desert you. Independence is very important for all of us. And I believe in society helping those less fortunate, less capable, and in need.
 
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Gwen-is-new!

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im a hardcore conservative Christian. I have always thought that conservative views go hand and hang with Christianity. Morals. Values. Standards. These are things I thought Christians should stand up for.

I can understand how some economic views such as capitalism and like healthcare can be controversial for anyone (including Christians) but issues such as abortion, gay rights, transgenderism, islam, - aren't these topics that all Christian's should be consistent with opposing? I mean, the Bible does support opposing it... so if Christians support scripture, why are some Christians liberal??? like shouldn't Christians be conservative?

I know a couple people who claim they are Christian but also have very liberal ideas. for example, this girl i met recently is basically a hardcore feminist, anti-trump, it seems her idealogy cannot support Christian values. This is just one example, I know so many Christians that are liberal. and i just dont understand

thoughts?

I dont wanna start a debate here, i am just genuinely concerned for the way our society is moving - LIBERAL. :)

I think the easy answer is that the bible is not authoritarian to all Christians.
 
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Violet Edge

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A person is liberal if they dislike Trump?

I don't know how a Christian taking their faith seriously can like Trump.

I am theologically conservative, but there is an astonishing amount of hypocrisy around conservative Christians when it comes to politics; homosexuality is assaulted constantly(yes, Scripture clearly states it's wrong) and yet gluttony, lying, greed and other sins are overlooked and often embraced.

If someone argues that they voted for Trump so the Republicans at large could make progress, okay, I can understand that... but to defend someone whose actions, past and present, are nothing but an affront to Christian values is nothing short of utter, utter hypocrisy and, as far as I'm concerned, a failure in the Christian's stewardship as an ambassador for Christ.
No. Absolutely not what i said. I used my friend disliking Trump as an example (because Trump is conservative) to suggest that some Christian's do not support conservative views, and then I went on to ask why this is.

Again, never once did I say that some sins are bigger than others. I have not said that, for for example homosexuality or murder (abortion), is way worse than lying. NO. I said that if the Bible opposes the sin of homosexuality and murder, why would we as Christians want to make it legal. Please explain yourself.

this is some insite from "got questions" website:
"Endorsing gay marriage is giving approval to a lifestyle choice the Bible condemns as immoral and unnatural. Therefore, Bible-believing Christians should support issues/candidates that are pro-life and should support issues/candidates that oppose gay marriage and uphold the biblical/traditional understanding of marriage."
 
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Gwen-is-new!

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Here's the problem, in a nutshell: the politics that would most closely align with Christ would be these:

Feed the poor = support welfare
Heal the sick = support universal medical care, free for those who cannot pay.
Provide for the widow and orphan = Social Security and disability and welfare benefits.

.

Did He mean for the government to do these things (force them on us), or did he mean for the body of believers to take care of the body of believers?

PS) You forgot capital punishment :)
PSS) Most Christians are humble enough to know that they fall short, and admit that they do have "double standards" AND unfortunately everything is not so black and white.
 
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PeaceByJesus

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This is all an attempt to hyphenate Jesus!
This is all Politiocal! This isn’t Christianity, but office politics discussion!
Rather, the idea that professed belief in Jesus always means the same Christ and means the same gospel and application in teaching is a fantasy, and the reality is that there are other Christs, and other means of salvation preached in His name, from another spirit than that of Scripture and what it teaches.

Would to God ye could bear with me a little in my folly: and indeed bear with me. For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ. But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him. (2 Corinthians 11:1-4)

But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. (Galatians 1:8)
 
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PeaceByJesus

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CF rules don't permit use of the obvious examples. I'm not sure how to respond usefully... The ethical discussion can't be done at all here. Look at the SOP for Christian Philosophy and Ethics. You'll find that only the political implications can be discussed.
Another category and another constraining rule. And who moved it here rather than a place where both doctrinal moral and political debate can take place, seeing they are all related? In which case you have my political/moral questions to answer.
 
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PeaceByJesus

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I think the easy answer is that the bible is not authoritarian to all Christians.
Then the issue then becomes what describes a true faithful Christian in the NT? What kind of basic heart and belief was required to become one, and what status did the Scriptures have?
Were they treated as being the established authoritative word of God, and with their historical accounts (Eve and the serpent, the Flood, Jonah and the fish, Balaam and his donkey, etc.) treated as being literal?

How would you contrast yourself with these?
 
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Gwen-is-new!

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Then the issue then becomes what describes a true faithful Christian in the NT? What kind of basic heart and belief was required to become one, and what status did the Scriptures have?
Were they treated as being the established authoritative word of God, and with their historical accounts (Eve and the serpent, the Flood, Jonah and the fish, Balaam and his donkey, etc.) treated as being literal?

How would you contrast yourself with these?

Extremely thankful that I have the written word of God and the Holy Spirit to reveal Truth to me.
 
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PeaceByJesus

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I would agree with 1-8 (But my opposition to these things stands within preaching the gospel and Scripture and in loving God and my neighbor).

As for number 9 and others relating to bearing arms and war; That would be a tough one for me.

I realize nations do need to defend themselves and execute justice as per Romans 13; Yet, on the other hand, I believe that Jesus teaches me as a Christian to be a New Testament Pacifist.

I would say a nation needs to protect itself, but we as believers are not a nation (like Israel). We are of a different Kingdom. Here are my reasons biblically for standing behind New Testament Pacifism.

(moved) Pacifism as Taught in the New Testament is Moral and Good.

But for the most part I agree with a lot on your list, though.

Thank you for sharing;
And may God's love shine upon you this fine day.
You being a Christian Pacifist should not mean you must be opposed to the just use of the sword of men by the lost in defense, or the just use of it by the state, and training in discipline, and thus sustaining a army.

I am not going to your link but unless you would never call the police or use the judicial system then you support the use of physical force and even the sword of men by the state, as without that ultimate threat they would be quite ineffective overall.
 
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Extremely thankful that I have the written word of God and the Holy Spirit to reveal Truth to me.
Indeed, but that does not answer my questions. If the bible is not authoritarian to all Christians then we must define Christian according to the source of that term. (Acts 11:26) Thus my questions. How can one validly lay claim to the title of "Christian" if they do not concur with a most basic belief of them in Scripture, which faith was established upon Scriptural substantiation in word and in power?
 
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