Christians owning guns specifically for self defense? (Biblical references, insight?)

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GenemZ

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Sloppy thinking doesn't appear to be a problem with your opponents only. To begin with, Jesus did not tell Peter to keep the sword He simply told him to put it away, there is a big difference.


Really? ... You mean to tell me that he wanted Peter to stop having a sword right after Jesus told them to purchase one if they did not already have a sword?

Like I said. "Sloppy thinking."
 
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Buzz_B

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Its not that I would not want to answer you. Its just too much to do so with. One point, or two, would have sufficed.
OK, lets simplify it with a closer look at Paul.

In his former life as a Pharisee Paul obviously believed in using the sword to destroy those he saw as the enemies of the Jews. And for that reason we find that Paul had participated in putting Christians to death. So the question is, Did Paul continue on in his former belief that the sword and physical violence was acceptable in the eyes of God?

If we take Paul at his word rather than reading into what Paul says, we see quite clearly that Paul saw that man who used to believe it OK to resort to the sword and physical violence as the old man he used to be. After his miraculous awakening on the road to Damascus, Paul lived Christ Revealed vigilantly to keep that old man dead in harmony with the sin which made that old man deserving of death.

Taking Paul at his word: “For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war according to the flesh )(2 Corinthians 10:3)

Now, remember that Paul, when he says, “ though we walk in the flesh”, does not mean that we ever have occasion to excuse ourselves to walk according to the flesh: “for if ye live after the flesh, ye must die; but if by the Spirit ye put to death the deeds of the body, ye shall live.” (Romans 8:13)

Paul has been reborn away from fruitless physical confrontations and liberated to now be free to deal with the real causes of war between men, those causes all being related to the spiritual corruption of the old man of flesh. And whenever Paul tells us to take up our armor and use weapons, these are now always spiritual things used to wage war against spiritual things. Never are they material things and never do we wage war against physical things, at least not if we have understood: “For our wrestling is not against flesh and blood, but against the principalities, against the powers, against the world-rulers of this darkness, against the spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places.” (Ephesians 6:12)

Being as our wrestling is, “not against flesh and blood”, anytime we conduct war on flesh and blood we are going after a symptom rather than dealing with the root cause. And in that way we render ourselves ineffective at quashing the problem.

There are literal foods a man can eat which will cause him to act crazy., especially certain types of mushrooms. We know that there are medications a man can take that can make a man act crazy. And because we know that we (most of the time) have sense enough to deal with the root problem. Rather than beating a man for his chemically induced craziness we seek to get him off those chemicals and we provide whatever assistance we can to help him get straight.

More often than those bad chemicals, the thing ingested which causes a man to act crazy is a spiritual thing, such as defective philosophies and poisonous beliefs. While we squander our resources focusing on opposing the physical (such as wrestling against flesh and blood) we rob ourselves of the opportunities to attack the underlying spiritual causes. There is no excuse for doing that, being as we know that the root causes are all related to defective philosophies and poisonous beliefs. It makes no more sense to kill one who is strung out on defective philosophies and poisonous beliefs than it does to kill people who are strung out on chemicals. If we fail to accredit value to their lives how can we expect God to value ours? 1 Timothy 2:3 “This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; who would have all men to be saved, and come to the knowledge of the truth.”

Anytime we go to war with another country we are taking lives that do not belong to us. Christ lived and died that those lives might be saved but when we go to war we have taken it upon ourselves to snatch that opportunity away from them that they never more have a chance to repent. And that enrages God at us. When we take life we are playing God and showing ourselves ungrateful that he was patient with us to allow us to continue living while we were yet sinners so as to have the opportunity to repent and be saved. We must count all material things as rubbish which is not worth fighting over. (Philippians 3:8) We have faith that God will supply all of our needs in due time. We need be anxious over nothing. Right there most of our intercontinental ill-will and wars would be eliminated. And with that ill-will gone we could all actually sit down together to find peaceful resolutions to our problems. Respect would then be mutual.

Our pattern has been to ignore the root causes of our frictions and live for today. We have seen unattended to frictions mature into explosions a few times over, especially during this last century. We have not given those frictions proper attention because none of us have had the wisdom to know how to do so. And that is very much ashamed being as the needed wisdom has been right there in our Bibles the entire time.
 
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GenemZ

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OK, lets simplify it with a closer look at Paul.

In his former life as a Pharisee Paul obviously believed in using the sword to destroy those he saw as the enemies of the Jews. And for that reason we find that Paul had participated in putting Christians to death. So the question is, Did Paul continue on in his former belief that the sword and physical violence was acceptable in the eyes of God?

You are confusing.... violence wrongly done against others (as Paul had been doing).. with someone using force to save his life from someone wanting to do violence wrongly to him.

Paul was a unique situation. He was seen as an official doing official (religious) business. Paul was not some violent crack head wanting to kill them for their money.

We must differentiate. As in, sex is not intrinsically bad. Sex with ones wife is good. Sex when raping someone is bad. Both involve sex. Likewise, needing to kill another to stop them from wrongfully taking your life, is never the same as someone killing another out of killer lust.
 
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Buzz_B

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You are confusing.... violence wrongly done against others (as Paul had been doing).. with someone using force to save his life from someone wanting to do violence wrongly to him.

Paul was a unique situation. He was seen as an official doing official (religious) business. Paul was not some violent crack head wanting to kill them for their money.

We must differentiate. As in, sex is not intrinsically bad. Sex with ones wife is good. Sex when raping someone is bad. Both involve sex. Likewise, needing to kill another to stop them from wrongfully taking your life, is never the same as someone killing another out of killer lust.
Toward the end of my post 69 I went on record saying, "If we kill by accident in the course of trying to protect ourselves, that is another matter. Our goal as individuals ought be only to immobilize our offender until he can be turned over to the government whom God has sanctioned to execute justice upon them."

In a post later on I stated that the increase in violence we see is in part attributable to war. of course it is also attributable to drugs but most people do not know that our drug problems really began through war. Methamphetamine was first used by the armed forces of various countries to enable them to get more out of their troops. Opioid was first introduced for pain during wartime. Way back in WWII even the United States permitted their troops to use stimulants to keep themselves alert during long hours of battle. The other side was doing so and the USA felt compelled to compete. There is quite a history of it given on Wikipedia if anyone cares to look it up.

Our troops returned to civillian life after WWII and more than a few of them were the first to set up their own labs to produce the drugs they were now addicted to. It was too expensive and involved too much red tape to get their fix from the drug companies using the commercial market.

Take time and check out what I here have told you. Nothing good has come of war and war is indeed primarily responsible for increasing crime and decreasing our personal security in all countries of this world.

Our personal security is at greater risk today because of war. The ills which increase crime were born of war.

I will try to locate the url for you to be able and read more about this.

The Drugs That Built a Super Soldier

https://www.vice.com/en_au/article/...sed-in-pretty-much-every-war-ever-shooting-up

History and culture of substituted amphetamines - Wikipedia
 
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razzelflabben

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Really? ... You mean to tell me that he wanted Peter to stop having a sword right after Jesus told them to purchase one if they did not already have a sword?

Like I said. "Sloppy thinking."
now let's look at the context of the passage where they were told to take a sword...where in the passage does it say what they were or were not to use the sword for? Hint: It doesn't...iow's they were expected to use the scriptures to determine how to live as followers of Christ with a sword in their hands. Those scriptures at the time were the OT...thus we can allow our OT knowledge to inform us as to what the swords were there for and as some have pointed out and I won't do again because you all don't seem to care what scripture really does say, there are laws governing the protection of self and others and even things....which would have been the sword carrying handbook of the day....you know, the one that Jesus would have expected them to use.
 
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GenemZ

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Toward the end of my post 69 I went on record saying, "If we kill by accident in the course of trying to protect ourselves, that is another matter. Our goal as individuals ought be only to immobilize our offender until he can be turned over to the government whom God has sanctioned to execute justice upon them."

I have been held up at gun point by two men - one gun. Have you?
 
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Buzz_B

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I have been held up at gun point by two men - one gun. Have you?
knocked in the back of my head on three different occasions and had my wallet stolen. Repeat offenses like that sometimes happens when you live in a high crime area and they see you as an easy mark.

And once when entering my place of employment during the late evening a man shoved a chrome colored pistol in my back to try to gain entry with me so he could rob the cash register. On that occasion I happened to have a very large screw driver in my hand and quickly spun around with it knocking the pistol out of his hand. Then while he scrambled to get his gun back I got in the door and locked him away from me while I called the police.

Unfortunately that man no sooner than he left me went after a woman and her daughter as the woman was dropping her daughter off. He broke the car window but the daughter got out and starting running the direction of the local police station causing him to chase after her. She made it to the police station evidently because he was smart enough to cut off his chase and take cover in a tavern which was between the two locations. And he actually managed to get someone to swap clothing with him once in that bar. We knew what he looked like and we each separately identified the same man but a public defender still managed to get his charges reduced to a petty slap on the hand. That Public Defender came to me and pleaded that the man was a very sad case from a nearby large city and was really a nice person until something happened to him that messed his mind up. She wanted me to agree to lesser charges out of sympathy for him. Well, I refused to agree to lessor charges but evidently the two women did agree and despite my objections the man was let go with a mere slap on the wrist. Our system is good but the people in charge very often show a sad lack of wisdom.
 
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GenemZ

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Well, I refused to agree to lessor charges but evidently the two women did agree and despite my objections the man was let go with a mere slap on the wrist. Our system is good but the people in charge very often show a sad lack of wisdom.

And, we who are in charge of our own life are also show a lack of wisdom.

When Jesus said to love our enemies? He was not speaking of enemies to the nation, nor a criminal wishing to possibly kill you.

34 “Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35 For I have come to turn

“‘a man against his father,
a daughter against her mother,
a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law—
36
a man’s enemies will be the members of his own household.’ Mat 10:34-36

We are to love our personal enemies. A criminal raping ones wife should not be loved, but harmed badly to make him stop. That is... if one truly loves his wife. Some would turn Henny Youngman in that situation.


 
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Ken Rank

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I find it very interesting when people go back to the plethora of laws in the OT to justify their agenda... Using your logic we should pressing our respective Governments to allow the buying and selling of slaves, and the stoning of and killing of adulterers and homosexuals.

Where in all of that is the two greatest commandments?

36 “Teacher, which commandment in the law is the greatest?” 37 He said to him, “ ‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.’ 38 This is the greatest and first commandment. 39 And a second is like it: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.”

The Holy Bible: New Revised Standard Version (Nashville: Thomas Nelson Publishers, 1989), Mt 22:36–40.
Well, that is because Yeshua walked according to those "laws in the OT" and encouraged us to study them. Remember, when the NT refers to the Word of God (in written form) or "Scripture" it isn't talking about the NT because there was no NT at that time. Just letters sent to various places writing about what was "Scripture" in that day... the Torah, Prophets and Writings.

And where are the two greatest commandments? In the OT... it isn't like they first appeared in the NT... love God and love neighbor are found in the Torah. When quoted in the NT they were quoting the OT... in fact, 1/3rd of the ENTIRE NT is OT quotes or inferences.
 
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razzelflabben

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And, we who are in charge of our own life are also show a lack of wisdom.

When Jesus said to love our enemies? He was not speaking of enemies to the nation, nor a criminal wishing to possibly kill you.

34 “Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35 For I have come to turn

“‘a man against his father,
a daughter against her mother,
a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law—
36
a man’s enemies will be the members of his own household.’ Mat 10:34-36

We are to love our personal enemies. A criminal raping ones wife should not be loved, but harmed badly to make him stop. That is... if one truly loves his wife. Some would turn Henny Youngman in that situation.


Funny side note...if you study enemy especially in the NT the enemy is always those that are against God...iow's our enemies are also God's enemies...from a biblical perspective. If we have other enemies we need to search our own souls and discover what is standing between us and God's perspective.
 
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razzelflabben

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So we looked at the context of both Peter in the garden and the command to buy swords, what is next? We can understand what God intended to teach us if we are simply willing to lay down our preconceived ideas in exchange for the God He has revealed to us that He is.
 
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GenemZ

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Well, that is because Yeshua walked according to those "laws in the OT" and encouraged us to study them. Remember, when the NT refers to the Word of God (in written form) or "Scripture" it isn't talking about the NT because there was no NT at that time. Just letters sent to various places writing about what was "Scripture" in that day... the Torah, Prophets and Writings.

And where are the two greatest commandments? In the OT... it isn't like they first appeared in the NT... love God and love neighbor are found in the Torah. When quoted in the NT they were quoting the OT... in fact, 1/3rd of the ENTIRE NT is OT quotes or inferences.

Don't confuse the parts of the Law that required ritual and how to personally live in Israel as a Jew (a woman having her period had to isolate herself from men) etc.... And, the parts of the Law that were given to establish a nation and civil freedoms.

"Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink,
or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or
a Sabbath day."
Col 2:16​

Yet Paul remained according to the Law as to the means to determine the right thing that should have been done when it came to civil law as found in the Torah.

"Although they know God’s righteous decree that those who do such things
deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve
of those who practice them."
Rom 1:32​

All Scripture serves a purpose in the formation of Christian thinking. The rituals in the Law revealed Christ who was to come. But now we have Christ. On the other hand? The need for understanding the civil law aspect has not been removed, because we still find ourselves living in the world. After all. The civil aspects of the Law were for the UNBELIEVER living in Israel. We can learn God's attitude towards certain crimes and national security that way.
 
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Ken Rank

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Don't confuse the parts of the Law that required ritual and how to personally live in Israel as a Jew (a woman having her period had to isolate herself from men) etc.... And, the parts of the Law that were given to establish a nation and civil freedoms.

"Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink,
or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or
a Sabbath day."
Col 2:16​

Yet Paul remained according to the Law as to the means to determine the right thing that should have been done when it came to civil law as found in the Torah.

"Although they know God’s righteous decree that those who do such things
deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve
of those who practice them."
Rom 1:32​

All Scripture serves a purpose in the formation of Christian thinking. The rituals in the Law revealed Christ who was to come. But now we have Christ. On the other hand? The need for understanding the civil law aspect has not been removed, because we still find ourselves living in the world. After all. The civil aspects of the Law were for the UNBELIEVER living in Israel. We can learn God's attitude towards certain crimes and national security that way.
Paul was a Law abiding Jew... He even stated he never taught against the Torah. But you are free to believe whatever you are convicted of, as will I. You see, for example, Col. 2:16 saying you are free to not keep the Sabbath... and I read it and come away with the opposite... because I keep the Sabbath and new moon (yes, we gather as a congregation and sight it, blow the shofar and eat a potluck :) ) I will not allow anyone to judge me on that. It makes no sense, to me, to think that Paul was telling us to not allow others to judge us for something we are not supposed to be doing anyway. It makes more sense that us doing them brings about judgement from others and we don't need to worry about that. But... that is where I am, I understand it is not where you are.

That isn't to say I believe all 613 commandments somehow apply to me today, I don't believe that. But of what does... we are expected to obey, I believe.
 
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GenemZ

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Paul was a Law abiding Jew... He even stated he never taught against the Torah.

Hmmmmm/... Jews under Law were not allowed to freely associate and eat with uncircumcised Gentiles.


11 When Cephas came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he stood condemned. 12 For before certain men came from James, he used to eat with the Gentiles. But when they arrived, he began to draw back and separate himself from the Gentiles because he was afraid of those who belonged to the circumcision group. 13 The other Jews joined him in his hypocrisy, so that by their hypocrisy even Barnabas was led astray.

14 When I saw that they were not acting in line with the truth of the gospel, I said to Cephas in front of them all, “You are a Jew, yet you live like a Gentile and not like a Jew. How is it, then, why do you compel Gentiles to live as Jews?" Gal 2:11-14


And, how about when Paul told the Corinthians to eat anything offered in the market place? Paul was standing in direct opposition to Jewish kosher laws found in the Law.


"Eat anything that is sold in the meat market without asking questions for conscience’ sake."1 Cor 2:25


Not to mention what Paul wrote to Timothy. No more kosher foods!

3 They forbid people to marry and order them to abstain from certain foods, which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and who know the truth. 4 For everything God created is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thanksgiving, 5 because it is consecrated by the word of God and prayer." 1 Timothy 4:3-5


That is why the Lord commanded the "very shocked" Peter to get up and to eat non kosher food for the first time in his life!

12 It contained all kinds of four-footed animals, as well as reptiles and birds. 13 Then a voice told him, “Get up, Peter. Kill and eat.”

14 “Surely not, Lord!” Peter replied. “I have never eaten anything impure or unclean (non-kosher).” Acts 10:12-14



.
 
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Buzz_B

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”genez” said:
And, we who are in charge of our own life are also show a lack of wisdom.

When Jesus said to love our enemies? He was not speaking of enemies to the nation, nor a criminal wishing to possibly kill you.

34 “Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35 For I have come to turn

“‘a man against his father,
a daughter against her mother,
a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law—
36 a man’s enemies will be the members of his own household.’ Mat 10:34-36

We are to love our personal enemies. A criminal raping ones wife should not be loved, but harmed badly to make him stop. That is... if one truly loves his wife. Some would turn Henny Youngman in that situation.
Yes, there is much lack of wisdom all the way around. We all struggle with a need for greater wisdom to some degree.

That is right that he is not speaking of enemies to the fleshly nation, nor a criminal wishing to possibly kill you. But he is speaking of those who are enemies to us and our walk as members of God's spiritual nation. The spiritual nation is what many do not understand and this lack of recognition of the spiritual nation leaves us open to confusion with the flesh.

Some are so fixated on fleshly Israel that they have no appreciation at all for the spiritual Israel, even denying its existence. But even as God's law was really spiritual and only remotely represented by the carnal letter, so also the true Israel of God has always really been spiritual and only remotely represented by the fleshly Israel. For there is no lack of faith or walking in sin which goes on in the true spiritual Israel as there is in the backsliding fleshly Israel. And when Paul and Barnabas told the Jewish people at Acts 13:46 “It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles”, they were indeed fulfilling the prophecy spoken by Jesus at Matthew 21:43 “Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.” In other words, taken from that backsliding fleshly nation and given to a newly created spiritual nation made up of peoples from out of all fleshly nations.

Does that mean that God rejected the fleshly Israel with its people? No. It meant just what Jesus said, “The kingdom of God shall be taken from you ...” Being a citizen of God's kingdom would no longer be synonymous with being a fleshly Israelite. They were not rejected from embracing faith in Christ and through Christ qualifying as members of the unshakable spiritual Israel of God's creation any more so than any other nation of flesh. And in the end only a remnant out of all (or, each of) the fleshly nations (including a remnant of fleshly Israel) would prove to desire and do so.

Why was it necessary for it to first be offered to the Jews as Paul and Barnabas said at Acts 13:46?

Because God used that fleshly Israel to prove that matter not what help the flesh is given, the flesh is incapable of obeying and pleasing God. The pattern was there set that only the spiritual-minded persons out of any nation could and would be able to enter the kingdom of God.

This is also why it is not amazing that we do not find sufficient wisdom among the fleshly nations to solve their problems of crime and war. There is no really valuable wisdom in the flesh and one can search forever to find it there only to end up disillusioned each time not terribly long after they think they have found it.

To make matters worse, the flesh is so preoccupied by its own illusions of wisdom that it argues against seeing true spiritual wisdom every time it is tried to be presented to them. When Paul said in places such as Romans chapter 6 that we must lay our flesh down as dead with Christ, he meant letting it and all its so-called wisdom die, no longer to be swayed by it. Only in that way can we come to spiritual life in Christ and be taught of God's unfailing spiritual wisdom.
 
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Buzz_B

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If we are to have God's wisdom to guide us, we must break free of our focus on ours individual selves. Only then can we begin to understand and find God's way of dealing with our problems.

Since the sin of Adam, man has been born with an exaggerated focus toward himself which tends to obscure his focus toward God and spiritual things. That self-centered focus causes us to have difficulty thinking outside the box of our self to find the wisdom of God. For example, when we read texts like 1 Corinthians 6:19, due to our self-focused fallen nature most of us tend to think of this as speaking of our individual body. But, while what is said does affect how we should use our individual bodies, is that verse really referring to our personal individual body as a temple of God and if not, then, when and how are we made holy? Is our personal body presently able to be a temple to God as was and is the holy body of Jesus Christ. To answer that question we must look at what it was about Christ's life which enabled him to be holy and have God to dwell in his body by spirit to compare how we measure up with him. Can we really say as Paul, “I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.” (Galatians 2:20) About his way, Jesus said:

(1) John 5:19b "... what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise."

(2) John 5:30b "... I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me."

(3) John 8:28b "... I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things."

(Added Note: Do not dismiss those above verses by false rationalizations. Take notice that Jesus is there speaking as the Son of God and sharing valuable information with you concerning what it means to be a son of God. If you would also be a son of God, listen to Jesus.)

How do we as an individual personally score as to our imitating Jesus' way in the above texts? What were the effects of Jesus' doing things that way in Jesus' life? Was not how Jesus lived what made and kept him holy? Hebrews 4:15 "For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin." The effects were that Jesus remained without sin and that is why God could dwell with Jesus, by spirit, in Jesus' body. Jesus was holy, having committed no sin: 1 Peter 2:22a “Who did no sin ...”

Some people clamor that a man or woman is forgiven his or her sins and attributed righteousness by professing to have faith in Jesus Christ. They then also clamor that this is why God is able to dwell with us in our individual bodies even as God dwells with Jesus in Jesus' body. They believe that Christ's death offsets any unholiness on our part past, present, and future.

The Scriptures do tell us that God will not dwell “with” unholiness, and certainly not “in” anything rendered unholy by sin:

Psalms 5:4 “For thou art not a God that hath pleasure in wickedness: neither shall evil dwell with thee.”

Psalms 101:6 “Mine eyes shall be upon the faithful of the land, that they may dwell with me: he that walketh in a perfect way, he shall serve me.”

Indeed, it is true that God will not dwell with anything unholy. But is it the mere professing with our lips of faith in Jesus that saves us? Or, is it the emulation of Jesus's ways in our life which saves us? After all, Jesus is “the way, the truth, and the life.” (John 14:6) (Compare: Psalms 15)

Romans 5:16 “And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offenses unto justification.” Many a mistaken preacher cites Ephesians 2:8-9 but misapply it. Ephesians 2:8-9 must be taken in the same thought as Romans 5:6 above. The point pure and simple is that we were dead by one man's (Adam's) sin and having no righteousness of God passed to us of Adam it was impossible that we could earn salvation ourselves. Therefore God provided us the free gift of his Son as our ransom to buy us back from that death which was fallen on us of Adam. To make matters worse, these carnal minded preachers have absolutely no real wisdom nor understanding of what Jesus Christ did and is doing and what our part in cooperation with him is if we would be saved. They are leading the many blindly to hell. You are saved in Christ by allowing your old man of flesh to die with Christ and then by the power of God's spirit (not your own power for you to brag about) rising to live only the life that is Christ. And that does not happen by merely saying, “I believe.” If it does not happen it is because you have not really given yourself fully to die with Christ. Thus you have really given God nothing to raise from death as your old man keeps trying to hold claim to the corrupt flesh as though it is life.

You either want truth or you want your way. If you want truth, ponder the things I have pointed out to you in this post against the Scriptures and if you have questions or objections, assert them. Put me to the test to see if God has or has not given me the wisdom to answer you and be willing to consider what is replied to you. And remember, if I did not consider what you say I would not be able to answer you.

Your personal body cannot be God's temple. If you think that it can you have the cart positioned ahead of the horse. It is not until the following is fulfilled that God can dwell with any of us as individuals: Revelation 21:3 "And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God." But you claim to have God with you now? It is the Son of God, Jesus Christ, who is with you now if it be that you are dead and your life hidden with Christ while you rise by holy spirit to walk his life rather than your own. Until you reach perfection your only sharing with God is in Christ, for his body is God's temple. The life given your flesh now is a mere token of what will be so that you can be like a cell in Christ's body.

Notice how "you" and your "mortal bodies" are spoken of as two separate things in the following verse: Romans 8:11 "But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you." Notice that first is God's spirit dwelling in “you” and then God, “shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit ...” God is already dwelling in the one called, “you”, but our individual bodies are yet dead because God has not yet but “shall” as in future tense, “also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit ...” Also, how is it possible that the "you" and the "yours" have "mortal bodies", plural?

It is because the "you" and the "yours" refers to the "one new man" of Ephesians 2:15 which we together by one spirit in Christ, are. If we truly be together in Christ letting his one life be ours (paralleling Adam's one life having been ours), by having lain our individual bodies of flesh born of Adam down in death with Christ, along with the old passions and desires which formerly acted upon us to impair the wisdom of our minds, then God gives a token of life to our mortal bodies which he is able to do because now living the life of Christ our bodies are no longer our own and are no longer being presented by us as unholy slaves to sin, thus enabling God to have a sharing with us in Christ.

And so at present it is only Christ's body of which we are mere members which is able to be that holy temple of God. It cannot be our mortal bodies lest you claim that God's temple is imperfect. God's temple must be perfect as God is perfect for he cannot dwell in anything imperfect. That which is imperfect is also unholy. We must reach full perfection before our individual bodies can be a temples of God. At that point in time we will have put on the full stature of Christ, being completely transformed to his image. 2 Corinthians 3:18 “But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.”; 1 Corinthians 15:49 “And as we have borne the [corrupted] image of the earthy, we shall also bear the [perfect] image of the heavenly.”; 1 Corinthians 15:22 “For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.”

Take another bit of time and think about what John told us, as follows:

1 John 3:6-10
6 "Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother."

Sin is clear evidence that we are not in Jesus Christ because sin proves we have not lain our old man down in death as we were admonished to do in order that we be able to rise to the life of Christ with him. We cannot have true godly wisdom, even if we think we have, if we have been mistaken that we are in Christ for failing to understand what is required to be in him. And that means that our old wisdom is yet misleading us. It would be better to humbly choose to make no decision concerning certain critically important things than to be misled by our carnal wisdom so that we add sin to sin.

An additional note on Romans 8:11, which verse was mentioned earlier, is speaking about giving our mortal bodies a measure of life now as members of Christ's body that we be able to function like organs in his body, and life to the full in the future. (Compare: 1 Timothy 4:8) The future resurrection to life is only possible because having lain our bodies down in death with Christ we have satisfied the appointed once to die which Paul mentions at Hebrews 9:27. To not lay our bodies down in death with Christ is to keep living for our flesh and the results will be death with no hope of redemption. This is because our literal death will then have to be the payment for our sins and that payment cannot be received back. However, if our sins are payed for now by our submitting to a voluntary death with Christ, his death is then the payment for our sins, leaving us free of God's wrath and our bodies able to be resurrected of God at the future time for it.

If we would receive salvation the wisdom for understanding anything has to begin by learning correctly what it means to have faith and actually be in Christ.
 
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If we are to have God's wisdom to guide us, we must break free of our focus on ours individual selves. Only then can we begin to understand and find God's way of dealing with our problems.

Since the sin of Adam, man has been born with an exaggerated focus toward himself which tends to obscure his focus toward God and spiritual things. That self-centered focus causes us to have difficulty thinking outside the box of our self to find the wisdom of God. For example, when we read texts like 1 Corinthians 6:19, due to our self-focused fallen nature most of us tend to think of this as speaking of our individual body. But, while what is said does affect how we should use our individual bodies, is that verse really referring to our personal individual body as a temple of God and if not, then, when and how are we made holy? Is our personal body presently able to be a temple to God as was and is the holy body of Jesus Christ. To answer that question we must look at what it was about Christ's life which enabled him to be holy and have God to dwell in his body by spirit to compare how we measure up with him. Can we really say as Paul, “I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.” (Galatians 2:20) About his way, Jesus said:

(1) John 5:19b "... what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise."

(2) John 5:30b "... I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me."

(3) John 8:28b "... I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things."

(Added Note: Do not dismiss those above verses by false rationalizations. Take notice that Jesus is there speaking as the Son of God and sharing valuable information with you concerning what it means to be a son of God. If you would also be a son of God, listen to Jesus.)

How do we as an individual personally score as to our imitating Jesus' way in the above texts? What were the effects of Jesus' doing things that way in Jesus' life? Was not how Jesus lived what made and kept him holy? Hebrews 4:15 "For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin." The effects were that Jesus remained without sin and that is why God could dwell with Jesus, by spirit, in Jesus' body. Jesus was holy, having committed no sin: 1 Peter 2:22a “Who did no sin ...”

Some people clamor that a man or woman is forgiven his or her sins and attributed righteousness by professing to have faith in Jesus Christ. They then also clamor that this is why God is able to dwell with us in our individual bodies even as God dwells with Jesus in Jesus' body. They believe that Christ's death offsets any unholiness on our part past, present, and future.

The Scriptures do tell us that God will not dwell “with” unholiness, and certainly not “in” anything rendered unholy by sin:

Psalms 5:4 “For thou art not a God that hath pleasure in wickedness: neither shall evil dwell with thee.”

Psalms 101:6 “Mine eyes shall be upon the faithful of the land, that they may dwell with me: he that walketh in a perfect way, he shall serve me.”

Indeed, it is true that God will not dwell with anything unholy. But is it the mere professing with our lips of faith in Jesus that saves us? Or, is it the emulation of Jesus's ways in our life which saves us? After all, Jesus is “the way, the truth, and the life.” (John 14:6) (Compare: Psalms 15)

Romans 5:16 “And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offenses unto justification.” Many a mistaken preacher cites Ephesians 2:8-9 but misapply it. Ephesians 2:8-9 must be taken in the same thought as Romans 5:6 above. The point pure and simple is that we were dead by one man's (Adam's) sin and having no righteousness of God passed to us of Adam it was impossible that we could earn salvation ourselves. Therefore God provided us the free gift of his Son as our ransom to buy us back from that death which was fallen on us of Adam. To make matters worse, these carnal minded preachers have absolutely no real wisdom nor understanding of what Jesus Christ did and is doing and what our part in cooperation with him is if we would be saved. They are leading the many blindly to hell. You are saved in Christ by allowing your old man of flesh to die with Christ and then by the power of God's spirit (not your own power for you to brag about) rising to live only the life that is Christ. And that does not happen by merely saying, “I believe.” If it does not happen it is because you have not really given yourself fully to die with Christ. Thus you have really given God nothing to raise from death as your old man keeps trying to hold claim to the corrupt flesh as though it is life.

You either want truth or you want your way. If you want truth, ponder the things I have pointed out to you in this post against the Scriptures and if you have questions or objections, assert them. Put me to the test to see if God has or has not given me the wisdom to answer you and be willing to consider what is replied to you. And remember, if I did not consider what you say I would not be able to answer you.

Your personal body cannot be God's temple. If you think that it can you have the cart positioned ahead of the horse. It is not until the following is fulfilled that God can dwell with any of us as individuals: Revelation 21:3 "And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God." But you claim to have God with you now? It is the Son of God, Jesus Christ, who is with you now if it be that you are dead and your life hidden with Christ while you rise by holy spirit to walk his life rather than your own. Until you reach perfection your only sharing with God is in Christ, for his body is God's temple. The life given your flesh now is a mere token of what will be so that you can be like a cell in Christ's body.

Notice how "you" and your "mortal bodies" are spoken of as two separate things in the following verse: Romans 8:11 "But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you." Notice that first is God's spirit dwelling in “you” and then God, “shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit ...” God is already dwelling in the one called, “you”, but our individual bodies are yet dead because God has not yet but “shall” as in future tense, “also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit ...” Also, how is it possible that the "you" and the "yours" have "mortal bodies", plural?

It is because the "you" and the "yours" refers to the "one new man" of Ephesians 2:15 which we together by one spirit in Christ, are. If we truly be together in Christ letting his one life be ours (paralleling Adam's one life having been ours), by having lain our individual bodies of flesh born of Adam down in death with Christ, along with the old passions and desires which formerly acted upon us to impair the wisdom of our minds, then God gives a token of life to our mortal bodies which he is able to do because now living the life of Christ our bodies are no longer our own and are no longer being presented by us as unholy slaves to sin, thus enabling God to have a sharing with us in Christ.

And so at present it is only Christ's body of which we are mere members which is able to be that holy temple of God. It cannot be our mortal bodies lest you claim that God's temple is imperfect. God's temple must be perfect as God is perfect for he cannot dwell in anything imperfect. That which is imperfect is also unholy. We must reach full perfection before our individual bodies can be a temples of God. At that point in time we will have put on the full stature of Christ, being completely transformed to his image. 2 Corinthians 3:18 “But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.”; 1 Corinthians 15:49 “And as we have borne the [corrupted] image of the earthy, we shall also bear the [perfect] image of the heavenly.”; 1 Corinthians 15:22 “For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.”

Take another bit of time and think about what John told us, as follows:

1 John 3:6-10
6 "Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother."

Sin is clear evidence that we are not in Jesus Christ because sin proves we have not lain our old man down in death as we were admonished to do in order that we be able to rise to the life of Christ with him. We cannot have true godly wisdom, even if we think we have, if we have been mistaken that we are in Christ for failing to understand what is required to be in him. And that means that our old wisdom is yet misleading us. It would be better to humbly choose to make no decision concerning certain critically important things than to be misled by our carnal wisdom so that we add sin to sin.

An additional note on Romans 8:11, which verse was mentioned earlier, is speaking about giving our mortal bodies a measure of life now as members of Christ's body that we be able to function like organs in his body, and life to the full in the future. (Compare: 1 Timothy 4:8) The future resurrection to life is only possible because having lain our bodies down in death with Christ we have satisfied the appointed once to die which Paul mentions at Hebrews 9:27. To not lay our bodies down in death with Christ is to keep living for our flesh and the results will be death with no hope of redemption. This is because our literal death will then have to be the payment for our sins and that payment cannot be received back. However, if our sins are payed for now by our submitting to a voluntary death with Christ, his death is then the payment for our sins, leaving us free of God's wrath and our bodies able to be resurrected of God at the future time for it.

If we would receive salvation the wisdom for understanding anything has to begin by learning correctly what it means to have faith and actually be in Christ.


That's all fine. But what has that got to do with having to deal with criminality in this world?

"If the thief is found breaking in, and he is struck so that he dies,
there shall be no guilt for his bloodshed. "
Exodus 22:2
 
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Shempster

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Really? ... You mean to tell me that he wanted Peter to stop having a sword right after Jesus told them to purchase one if they did not already have a sword?

Like I said. "Sloppy thinking."
This verse is very intriguing.
It appears to say one thing, but we must also account for one other factor: some words or phrases can be suggestive as meaning the opposite by the WAY it is said. Hear me out a sec....
If I looked at you and said "you'd best go out and buy a gun" whilst nodding my head up and down and slightly closing one eye, you would think I mean business.
But if I said the same phrase whilst shaking my head in a "no" fashion and raised my voice then you might see that I was exaggerating to make an issue. In others words like "if you really think you need a gun and that it will save you, then just go ahead and buy one". Now in that context it has a completely different meaning. Inflection is lost in literary works, so that makes interpretation difficult. But we can also see that this style is also evident in the parables of Jesus.

Honestly, do you think our Father wants us to use deadly force upon another? C'mon...
Re-read the sermon on the mount.
 
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GenemZ

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This verse is very intriguing.
It appears to say one thing, but we must also account for one other factor: some words or phrases can be suggestive as meaning the opposite by the WAY it is said. Hear me out a sec....
If I looked at you and said "you'd best go out and buy a gun" whilst nodding my head up and down and slightly closing one eye, you would think I mean business.
But if I said the same phrase whilst shaking my head in a "no" fashion and raised my voice then you might see that I was exaggerating to make an issue. In others words like "if you really think you need a gun and that it will save you, then just go ahead and buy one". Now in that context it has a completely different meaning. Inflection is lost in literary works, so that makes interpretation difficult. But we can also see that this style is also evident in the parables of Jesus.

Honestly, do you think our Father wants us to use deadly force upon another? C'mon...
Re-read the sermon on the mount.

The sermon on the mount was not told to the church. The church age had not even begun. Jesus spoke as the perfect rabbi to Jews according to what they knew in prophesy concerning the Kingdom of God. Many of the prophets spoke passages concerning the Millennial reign of Christ. Think a bit? Have the meek inherited the earth? Will they do so before the Kingdom is set up? Not a chance. The sermon on the mount was spoken to Torah believing Jews, not the church... Though we can still learn from what was said.


The Greek language did not leave room for your kind of speculation... There is more to learn than most of us have been taught to know about this factor. If there were a nod, as you suggested? The Greek had a way to express it. Its one reason why God chose the Greek for recording a large portion of the Bible. For it was a very exacting language unlike English that lends us to think with more assumptions. If the original languages were properly taught today from the Bible? About 90% of the false doctrines we find today would have been shot down a long time ago.
 
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GenemZ

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Honestly, do you think our Father wants us to use deadly force upon another? C'mon...
Re-read the sermon on the mount.

He does not want us to be lame and target practice for criminals either. Name one free nation today that did not win its freedom without their military. Name one?
 
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