Do prayers have NO practical effect, since the Father knows the future?

searcher24 · Nov 28, 2017

this topic came out in this thread too, here's a related question:
Can we pray for shortening the days of the Second Coming?
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Do we think that prayers have only a "spiritual" effect on us and our convictions, OR are they sometimes also practically fulfilled by the Father?

Someone's idea is that since the Father have decided everything from the beginning of the time, our prayers have no effect on the events that will happen.

I don't think that this position is very Scriptural since seems like God always wanted us to cooperate to His Salvation Plan, but I'm curious to hear both sides on this opinion.

In defense to the idea that our prayer may have influence even though God has set things by knowing the future, I propose this simple reasoning.

Imagine 2 possible timelines of the future, one in which a person (let's call her Martha) prays, and another in which she doesn't pray. And let's imagine that the prayer is about getting the courage to testify the Lord in a hostile country.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

TIMELINE 1

Event A: Martha prays for courage

Event B: The Lord, by knowing Martha's prayer and by considering the prayer according to His will, gives her the courage

Event C: Martha goes in a hostile country to testify the Lord

TIMELINE 2

Event A-2: Martha doesn't pray for courage

Event B-2: The Lord doesn't force the gift of courage upon Martha, by respecting her free will

Event C-2: Martha stays at home

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Now, the Lord knows the future. He knows from the very beginning if Martha will choose event A or event A-2 (and let's say that she decides A), so he knows that He will send her courage. But this doesn't mean that Martha's prayer wasn't important, indeed it was fundamental!

Thus, even though God knows the future, our prayers may have a practical effect.

What do you think about it?

dysert · Nov 28, 2017

I'm interested in see how this discussion goes because I have a problem with prayer. My opinion of the matter is that there are many decisions we can make that God has no preference about. For example, in His grand plan, He may not have a preference whether Martha goes to a hostile country to testify or whether she testifies to her (presumably) less hostile neighbors. So whether she prays or not she'll still be within God's will.

I'm eager to hear others' opinions of the matter.

Dave-W · Nov 28, 2017

I think you misunderstand the purpose of prayer. It is about communicating and relating us to God; changing outcomes is only a side benefit.

searcher24 · Nov 28, 2017

Dave-W said:
I think you misunderstand the purpose of prayer. It is about communicating and relating us to God; changing outcomes is only a side benefit.

Brother @Dave-W
I LOVE the side of the prayer about communicating and relating us to God.
And only if we remain in Him, and His Word remains in us, we could desire something according to His will.
So, don't worry, I'm not forgetting about this side of the prayer.

But since we cannot cover every aspect of the prayer in a single topic, on this topic we are focusing on the outcome side.

~Anastasia~ · Nov 28, 2017

I don't believe we should generally consider prayer as "changing God's mind" about things. But yes, God always knew what prayers we would pray. Our part in supplicatory prayers is to pray in agreement with the will of God. (And I don't mean by that that He has already laid out every decision He hopes we will make. We are not puppets and that negates free will.)

But sometimes "we have not because we ask not" ... also sometimes "we have not because we ask wrongly", or because it is not God's will we are seeking

Prayer IS an interaction with God, and even supplication is part of our relationship with Him. But these are the least important of prayers. They serve more to act as our cooperation/relationship with God, and to change, form, and shape US (if prayed rightly) than they do in the way of activating some cosmic slot-machine.

I understand you wish to discuss only one aspect of prayer, but I think that's a little like saying you wish to separate the discussion of breathing and the lungs. They are so intertwined (ideally) that you lose the real sense of it if you try to consider one aspect without others.

FireDragon76 · Nov 28, 2017

I think that's the typical explanation.

ToBeLoved · Nov 28, 2017

searcher24 said:
Do we think that prayers have only a "spiritual" effect on us and our convictions, OR are they sometimes also practically fulfilled by the Father?

Someone's idea is that since the Father have decided everything from the beginning of the time, our prayers have no effect on the events that will happen.

I don't think that this position is very Scriptural since seems like God always wanted us to cooperate to His Salvation Plan, but I'm curious to hear both sides on this opinion.

In defense to the idea that our prayer may have influence even though God has set things by knowing the future, I propose this simple reasoning.

Imagine 2 possible timelines of the future, one in which a person (let's call her Martha) prays, and another in which she doesn't pray. And let's imagine that the prayer is about getting the courage to testify the Lord in a hostile country.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

TIMELINE 1

Event A: Martha prays for courage

Event B: The Lord, by knowing Martha's prayer and by considering the prayer according to His will, gives her the courage

Event C: Martha goes in a hostile country to testify the Lord

TIMELINE 2

Event A-2: Martha doesn't pray for courage

Event B-2: The Lord doesn't force the gift of courage upon Martha, by respecting her free will

Event C-2: Martha stays at home

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Now, the Lord knows the future. He knows from the very beginning if Martha will choose event A or event A-2 (and let's say that she decides A), so he knows that He will send her courage. But this doesn't mean that Martha's prayer wasn't important, indeed it was fundamental!

Thus, even though God knows the future, our prayers may have a practical effect.

What do you think about it?

PS this topic came out in this thread too, here's a related question:
Can we pray for shortening the days of the Second Coming?

Jesus is said to have prayed every day for like 2 hours. And He didn't just go to a quiet area on the other side of the house, He went away where no one could find Him until He came back.

So given that Jesus prayed and Jesus was also God, I think that there is something to prayer.

JackRT · Nov 28, 2017

During the late 1940's and well into the 1950's Charles Templeton was one of the leading evangelists in North America. He was a contemporary and close friend of Billy Graham and at the time might have been a greater evangelist than Graham himself. In 1957, just following his greatest crusade ever, and after a long period of soul searching, he turned his back on his ministry and walked away from it. He said to himself, in effect, “how can I stand here and preach passionately to these people when I know that I am not preaching the truth.”

Charles Templeton wrote in “Farewell to God” --- “According to Christian theology, God is omniscient and exists apart from time. Being omniscient he knows the end from the beginning. But if true, would this not mean that all temporal life is predetermined? If God knows the end from the beginning then nothing is subject to change --- otherwise it would not have been known from the beginning. This being so, prayer cannot possibly change anything and there is no point to it. Apart from its function as worship, prayer is based on the premise that God can be talked into running the universe according to the wishes of a devout person on his knees. But, again, try to imagine the chaos if every devout person's prayers were answered! Belief in the efficacy of prayer is a form of self-delusion. Our real prayers are not what we say while on our knees --- the facile words whispered during a prayer. They are the aspirations, attitudes, and desires that motivate our daily lives. It is easy to prime the pump and have the words gush forth in a torrent of pious phrases but the proof of what we really want, regardless of what we say we want, is evident in the way we live. “

searcher24 · Nov 28, 2017

JackRT said:
otherwise it would not have been known from the beginning. This being so, prayer cannot possibly change anything and there is no point to it

Do you agree with the quotes, or are you just reporting them?
If you agree, please present a refutation of the reasoning I've introduced above, because it already contains an answer to that quote.

Because Charle's argument it's already refuted by the reasoning in the topic starter.

Also, it's incredible that such quote comes from an "authoritative" person, who spent his life thinking on these subjects, because frankly it seems written by a child who has just started thinking about these questions...
And to see why I say that, read the very simple reasoning that I've written above.
If you find any logical flaw in that topic starter reasoning, let me know, otherwise, that is a refutation of the thought expressed in that Charles' quote.

If that is the intellectual level of "Farewell to God", I guess God's answer to this Charles would be "I won't miss you".

JackRT · Nov 28, 2017

Do prayers have NO practical effect, since the Father knows the future?

I voted "yes' to this question but do want to qualify that response. The human psyche is extremely complex and still not fully understood. I suspect that prayer can act to focus the mind in such a way that the person can sometimes find the mental strength within themselves to solve their own difficulty. This would certainly be a "practical" effect. However, like Charles Templeton, I do not believe that God will micro-manage the universe for us.

searcher24 · Nov 28, 2017

JackRT said:
Do prayers have NO practical effect, since the Father knows the future?

I voted "yes' to this question but do want to qualify that response. The human psyche is extremely complex and still not fully understood. I suspect that prayer can act to focus the mind in such a way that the person can sometimes find the mental strength within themselves to solve their own difficulty. This would certainly be a "practical" effect. However, like Charles Templeton, I do not believe that God will micro-manage the universe for us.

Thanks for your answer brother

Can you also share your opinion on the reasoning in the topic starter? (the one with the 2 timelines) Either you find a logical flow there, or otherwise Charles' argument is completely annihilated by that.

JackRT · Nov 28, 2017

searcher24 said:
Also, it's incredible that such quote comes from an "authoritative" person, who spent his life thinking on these subjects, because frankly it seems written by a child who has just started thinking about these questions...And to see why I say that, read the very simple reasoning that I've written above.

A rather sly ad hominem. I was quite unsatisfied with your reasoning. Being a searcher, I suggest that you continue your quest.

searcher24 · Nov 28, 2017

JackRT said:
I was quite unsatisfied with your reasoning.

I'm sorry but this is not a logical refutation, nor it is Charles' quote.
Do you have a logical refutation?
And btw, not ad hominem at all, since I was noticing how his work was disproved by the topic starter (unless you present a logical refutation to that, other than "unsatisfying")

PeaceB · Nov 28, 2017

SUMMA THEOLOGIAE: Prayer (Secunda Secundae Partis, Q. 83)

Article 2. Whether it is becoming to pray?
Objection 1. It would seem that it is unbecoming to pray. Prayer seems to be necessary in order that we may make our needs known to the person to whom we pray. But according to Matthew 6:32, "Your Father knoweth that you have need of all these things." Therefore it is not becoming to pray to God.

Objection 2. Further, by prayer we bend the mind of the person to whom we pray, so that he may do what is asked of him. But God's mind is unchangeable and inflexible, according to 1 Samuel 15:29, "But the Triumpher in Israel will not spare, and will not be moved to repentance." Therefore it is not fitting that we should pray to God.

Objection 3. Further, it is more liberal to give to one that asks not, than to one who asks because, according to Seneca (De Benefic. ii, 1), "nothing is bought more dearly than what is bought with prayers." But God is supremely liberal. Therefore it would seem unbecoming to pray to God.

On the contrary, It is written (Luke 18:1): "We ought always to pray, and not to faint."

I answer that, Among the ancients there was a threefold error concerning prayer. Some held that human affairs are not ruled by Divine providence; whence it would follow that it is useless to pray and to worship God at all: of these it is written (Malachi 3:14): "You have said: He laboreth in vain that serveth God." Another opinion held that all things, even in human affairs, happen of necessity, whether by reason of the unchangeableness of Divine providence, or through the compelling influence of the stars, or on account of the connection of causes: and this opinion also excluded the utility of prayer. There was a third opinion of those who held that human affairs are indeed ruled by Divine providence, and that they do not happen of necessity; yet they deemed the disposition of Divine providence to be changeable, and that it is changed by prayers and other things pertaining to the worship of God. All these opinions were disproved in I:19:7; I:19:8; I:22:2; I:22:4; I:115:6; I:116. Wherefore it behooves us so to account for the utility of prayer as neither to impose necessity on human affairs subject to Divine providence, nor to imply changeableness on the part of the Divine disposition.

In order to throw light on this question we must consider that Divine providence disposes not only what effects shall take place, but also from what causes and in what order these effects shall proceed. Now among other causes human acts are the causes of certain effects. Wherefore it must be that men do certain actions. not that thereby they may change the Divine disposition, but that by those actions they may achieve certain effects according to the order of the Divine disposition: and the same is to be said of natural causes. And so is it with regard to prayer. For we pray not that we may change the Divine disposition, but that we may impetrate that which God has disposed to be fulfilled by our prayers in other words "that by asking, men may deserve to receive what Almighty God from eternity has disposed to give," as Gregory says (Dial. i, 8)

Reply to Objection 1. We need to pray to God, not in order to make known to Him our needs or desires but that we ourselves may be reminded of the necessity of having recourse to God's help in these matters.

Reply to Objection 2. As stated above, our motive in praying is, not Divine disposition, we may change the Divine disposition, but that, by our prayers, we may obtain what God has appointed.

Reply to Objection 3. God bestows many things on us out of His liberality, even without our asking for them: but that He wishes to bestow certain things on us at our asking, is for the sake of our good, namely, that we may acquire confidence in having recourse to God, and that we may recognize in Him the Author of our goods. Hence Chrysostom says [Implicitly [Hom. ii, de Orat.: Hom. xxx in Genes.]; Cf. Caten. Aur. on Luke 18: "Think what happiness is granted thee, what honor bestowed on thee, when thou conversest with God in prayer, when thou talkest with Christ, when thou askest what thou wilt, whatever thou desirest."

concretecamper · Nov 28, 2017

I was once told by a very devote priest that if you pray to God for more patience, He will respond by allowing you to be placed into situations where you can work on and increase your patience. I suspect the same applied to courage.

JackRT · Nov 28, 2017

Your argument is based on the presumption that God knows the future. That is pure speculation on our part. We do not know God's attributes or motivations, we can only speculate about them. I will speculate:
--- God is unable to know the future
--- God is able to know the future but chooses not to
--- human beings have no free will and God determines their entire future and chooses to favour some and condemn others (this might seem quite unfair but there is ample Biblical justification to suggest this)
--- human beings have free will and God judges us on our choices (also much Biblical justification to suggest this)

JackRT · Nov 28, 2017

concretecamper said:
I was once told by a very devote priest that if you pray to God for more patience, He will respond by allowing you to be placed into situations where you can work on and increase your patience. I suspect the same applied to courage.

There was a sign on the wall of a former pastor's study ---- "Lord grant me patience but please hurry!"

searcher24 · Nov 28, 2017

JackRT said:
Your argument is based on the presumption that God knows the future. That is pure speculation on our part. We do not know God's attributes or motivations, we can only speculate about them. I will speculate:

You are completely right!
Indeed, the topic is just an answer to who, by assuming that God knows the future, think that this demonstrates that prayers are useless.

I don't have a position on whether God knows the future, I don't know. What I'm proposing is just that IF He knows it, that doesn't imply that prayers are useless, but they can still have an effect for the reason explained above.

searcher24 · Nov 28, 2017

PeaceB said:
Article 2. Whether it is becoming to pray?
Objection 1. It would seem that it is unbecoming to pray. Prayer seems to be necessary in order that we may make our needs known to the person to whom we pray. But according to Matthew 6:32, "Your Father knoweth that you have need of all these things." Therefore it is not becoming to pray to God.

Objection 2. Further, by prayer we bend the mind of the person to whom we pray, so that he may do what is asked of him. But God's mind is unchangeable and inflexible, according to 1 Samuel 15:29, "But the Triumpher in Israel will not spare, and will not be moved to repentance." Therefore it is not fitting that we should pray to God.

Objection 3. Further, it is more liberal to give to one that asks not, than to one who asks because, according to Seneca (De Benefic. ii, 1), "nothing is bought more dearly than what is bought with prayers." But God is supremely liberal. Therefore it would seem unbecoming to pray to God.

On the contrary, It is written (Luke 18:1): "We ought always to pray, and not to faint."

I answer that, Among the ancients there was a threefold error concerning prayer. Some held that human affairs are not ruled by Divine providence; whence it would follow that it is useless to pray and to worship God at all: of these it is written (Malachi 3:14): "You have said: He laboreth in vain that serveth God." Another opinion held that all things, even in human affairs, happen of necessity, whether by reason of the unchangeableness of Divine providence, or through the compelling influence of the stars, or on account of the connection of causes: and this opinion also excluded the utility of prayer. There was a third opinion of those who held that human affairs are indeed ruled by Divine providence, and that they do not happen of necessity; yet they deemed the disposition of Divine providence to be changeable, and that it is changed by prayers and other things pertaining to the worship of God. All these opinions were disproved in I:19:7; I:19:8; I:22:2; I:22:4; I:115:6; I:116. Wherefore it behooves us so to account for the utility of prayer as neither to impose necessity on human affairs subject to Divine providence, nor to imply changeableness on the part of the Divine disposition.

In order to throw light on this question we must consider that Divine providence disposes not only what effects shall take place, but also from what causes and in what order these effects shall proceed. Now among other causes human acts are the causes of certain effects. Wherefore it must be that men do certain actions. not that thereby they may change the Divine disposition, but that by those actions they may achieve certain effects according to the order of the Divine disposition: and the same is to be said of natural causes. And so is it with regard to prayer. For we pray not that we may change the Divine disposition, but that we may impetrate that which God has disposed to be fulfilled by our prayers in other words "that by asking, men may deserve to receive what Almighty God from eternity has disposed to give," as Gregory says (Dial. i, 8)

Reply to Objection 1. We need to pray to God, not in order to make known to Him our needs or desires but that we ourselves may be reminded of the necessity of having recourse to God's help in these matters.

Reply to Objection 2. As stated above, our motive in praying is, not Divine disposition, we may change the Divine disposition, but that, by our prayers, we may obtain what God has appointed.

Reply to Objection 3. God bestows many things on us out of His liberality, even without our asking for them: but that He wishes to bestow certain things on us at our asking, is for the sake of our good, namely, that we may acquire confidence in having recourse to God, and that we may recognize in Him the Author of our goods. Hence Chrysostom says [Implicitly [Hom. ii, de Orat.: Hom. xxx in Genes.]; Cf. Caten. Aur. on Luke 18: "Think what happiness is granted thee, what honor bestowed on thee, when thou conversest with God in prayer, when thou talkest with Christ, when thou askest what thou wilt, whatever thou desirest."

I've read it all, interesting.
For the people "too long/didn't read":

PeaceB said:
"For we pray not that we may change the Divine disposition, but that we may impetrate that which God has disposed to be fulfilled by our prayers in other words "that by asking, men may deserve to receive what Almighty God from eternity has disposed to give,""

This is in other words what's in the starting topic.

But I loved reading all, and even if I've found weird the objection 3 at the beginning, it gave me food for thought, so I'll reason on that.

JackRT · Nov 28, 2017

searcher24 said:
You are completely right!
Indeed, the topic is just an answer to who, by assuming that God knows the future, think that this demonstrates that prayers are useless.

I don't have a position on whether God knows the future, I don't know. What I'm proposing is just that IF He knows it, that doesn't imply that prayers are useless, but they can still have an effect for the reason explained above.

And also for the reason that I suggested above.

Do prayers have NO practical effect, since the Father knows the future?

Do prayers have NO practical effect, since the Father knows the future?

Yes

No

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