The Rapture - 2020?

Major1 said:

Pre-trib opponents should have thought this one through because any pre-tribulationist has the same right to say, “Nowhere in the Bible does it directly say the Church will go through the tribulation.”

Click to expand...

But you are wrong:
Jesus said: In this world, you will have tribulation.....
1 Peter 4:12 said: Be aware of the fiery ordeal that comes to test you....
Paul said, in Romans 8:18 the sufferings we must endure....
1 Corinthians 10:13 ..when the time of testing comes.....
2 Timothy 3:12 Persecution will come to everyone who lives a godly life...
Hebrews 12:8 If you avoid the discipline in which all the sons of God must share, then your are illegitimate and not a true son.
Revelation 13:9-10....this calls for the endurance and faithfulness of God's people.
Plus many others that prove we Christians will face trials and testing in the last days.

Typically, you turn the question around and we all know why you do that; because you simply don't have any scripture that says God will take the Church to heaven.

Major1 said:

Just some friendly advice. When you copy and paste is such a "BLOCK" method, it makes reading it impossible.

Try using paragraphs, commas and such.

Now then, those that reject a Pre-tribulation Rapture say, "Nowhere in the Bible does it directly say that the Church will be raptured before the tribulation."

Pre-trib opponents should have thought this one through because any pre-tribulationist has the same right to say, “Nowhere in the Bible does it directly say the Church will go through the tribulation.”

Jesus did say in Matt. 24:44.......
“Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh”.

The only time frame I can think of when we believers would not be expecting Jesus to return would have to be before the tribulation.

Click to expand...

Matthew 24:44 For those that are taken by the antichrist, this is exactly the way that it will be. You need to skip back up to verse 43 -read it. Lets find out what the Bible say about the churches being here during the tribulation. Revelation 1:10 "I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet." Open your eyes right now, this verse is the key to understanding the book of Revelation. Without a clear and full understanding of it, the entire book just will not make sense. The sequence of order will seem strange. "I", this is John speaking and telling us where he was. "I was in the Spirit", not in the FLESH BODY; "on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet." John is taken forward in time, "in the Spirit", to the day of the Lord. The "day of the Lord" is not referring to Sunday or Saturday. This is the same "day of the Lord" Paul speaks about this in 1 Thessalonians 5:2, as coming, as a thief in the night". Later in 11 Thessalonians 2:-3 Paul makes it clear that at the "Day of the Lord" Christ's return will not happen until after there will be a great falling away first and "that man of sin be revealed, in his role as the antichrist first, before that seventh trumpet can sounds. Every verse that you read in Revelation 1:10 from this verse 10 to the end of chapter twenty two, will be viewed from the Lords day, either looking backwards or forwards a short period of time. If you don't come to that point of time in your understanding with John, the rest of what he is saying just will not make any sense. Most churches of today don't realize that at the sounding of the seventh trumpet and Jesus Christ's return, all of the churches will still be right here on earth. This was pointed out in the first chapter. The churches John saw, the seven candlesticks", were right here on earth on the "Day of the Lord". On the Day of the Lord the entire tribulation is over, finished, and the churches are STILL ON THE EARTH! If you are looking for a "rapture", for someone to fly you out of here before Satan comes to earth in his role as the antichrist, as so many churches teach; it means you will have already worshipped the antichrist at the time this vision of John. You have taken Satan's name. Repent before its to late for you and your family!

keras said:

But you are wrong:
Jesus said: In this world, you will have tribulation.....
1 Peter 4:12 said: Be aware of the fiery ordeal that comes to test you....
Paul said, in Romans 8:18 the sufferings we must endure....
1 Corinthians 10:13 ..when the time of testing comes.....
2 Timothy 3:12 Persecution will come to everyone who lives a godly life...
Hebrews 12:8 If you avoid the discipline in which all the sons of God must share, then your are illegitimate and not a true son.
Revelation 13:9-10....this calls for the endurance and faithfulness of God's people.
Plus many others that prove we Christians will face trials and testing in the last days.

Typically, you turn the question around and we all know why you do that; because you simply don't have any scripture that says God will take the Church to heaven.

Click to expand...

NO. I am not wrong. YOU may not agree with me and that certainly is your choice to do so.

I agree, "In this world we will have tribulation".

I have had that now for about 75 years or so. It was tribulation for me when my father took a belt to my but. It was tribulation when my mother made me stay under the bed when I disobeyed her.
It was tribulation for me when I missed 4 free throws and my coach made me run 10 extra laps for it.
Life is for sure full of tribulation.

However, that is NOT what we are talking about. The Tribulation is the 7 years allotted to the end of the age that the Bible calls "Jacob's Trouble". It has been called by men "The Great Tribulation" because of all the trouble that Israel will go through in the last 7 years God has allotted.

Where the error is here, is in that you are picking out Scriptures that you think have a word such as "Tribulation, or persecution" and then making them fit into the time frame you want. That is the error my brother.....and I say that with due respect for you.

1 Peter 4:12.......... is NOT about the "Great Tribulation" of the last days.
The correct application should be applied to the historical reality of the Neronian persecution. Christians were blamed for the burning of Rome. Some were covered with pitch and used as living torches to light the imperial gardens at night. Peter may have believed that the provincial officials were likely to follow their emperor's example and stake-burning of Christians in Asia Minor. Such persecution should not take the Christians by surprise as though something strange (xenou) were befalling them.

Then..........
Romans 8:18..........."for I recon that the sufferings of THIS PRESENT TIME are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed to us".

I do not think that any real think person can believe that means the church will go through the 7 year Tribulation. If you do, then IMO you are wrong.
Suffering is something that is common to all believers since the Resurrection of Jesus. Suffering is normal, suffering is expected but the verse DOES NOT suggest anything about the church going through the 7 year Tribulation.

Then..........
2 Timothy 3:12 ........"Persecution will come to everyone who lives a godly life..."

Now please read the verse before #12 where Paul says....
"PERSECUTIONS, AFFLICTIONS which came unto ME at Antioch, at Iconium, at Lystra, what persecutions I endured, but out of them all, the Lord delivered me".

Paul suffered for the cause of Christ as did all the apostles. We all, today suffer the same things when we are bold for Christ. But again, we do not see that the verse you used supports the idea of the church going through the 7 year Tribulation period.

Then..........
1 Corinthians 10:13 .."when the time of testing comes.....".

Everyone is tempted! Everyone has been tempted! Everyone will be tempted.
We, YOU and Me are sinners and the truth is that no one has experienced any kind of temptation that others have not been through.
The good thing is that God has made a way of escape. But once again.........it is clear that the vrse you posted IS NOT referring to the church going through the Tribulation Peroid.

Then...........
Hebrews 12:8 --------"If you avoid the discipline in which all the sons of God must share, then your are illegitimate and not a true son."

The truth is and allow me to put this down as an axiom of Scripture........ALL of God's children suffer!
The Bible never, ever argues that. We all suffer because we are God's children. We have His nature and the world hates it, and therefore hate us.

But again, as I have documented, the verse you used DOES NOT REFER to the church going through the Tribulation Period. The misapplication of Scripture is never an accepted way of Bible study.

We must always make the correct application or we wind up in error which will lead to confusion.

Jere. 30:7.........
"In all history there has never been such a time of terror. It will be a time of trouble for my people Israel. Yet in the end they will be saved!"

Joel 2:11.........
"And the LORD shall utter his voice before his army: for his camp is very great: for he is strong that executeth his word: for the day of the LORD is great and very terrible; and who can abide it?"

Zeph. 1:14..........
"The great day of the LORD is near, it is near, and hasteth greatly, even the voice of the day of the LORD: the mighty man shall cry there bitterly."

Then there is..........

1 Corth. 15:51..........
"But let me reveal to you a wonderful secret. We will not all die, but we will all be transformed! "

Rev. 3:10........
“Because you have obeyed my command to persevere, I will protect you from the great time of testing that will come upon the whole world to test those who belong to this world."

There is no mention of the church in the prophetic description of the great tribulation period. The church is mentioned 16 times in chapters 1-3. But, it is not mentioned once in chapters 4-22 from the great tribulation through the battle of Armageddon and the 1000-year reign of Christ on Earth.

Rev. 4:1
After this I looked, and there before me was a door standing open in heaven. And the voice I had first heard speaking to me like a trumpet said, “Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this.” (Revelation 4:1)

Earth and heaven said:

. The tribulation will only be 5 months read Revelation9:5.

Click to expand...

What fictional book are you reading
7 years from the signing of the peace treaty , the last 7 years of Human run government begins ,, at the mid point is the start of the Great Tribulation,

Jesus said Himself that the 42 months is the time period NOT 5 months , the 5 months is in reference to the sting and torment that the demons that are released from the pit will cause on mankind-they will not kill just cause pain and torment
Rv
3 And out of the smoke locusts came down on the earth and were given power like that of scorpions of the earth. 4 They were told not to harm the grass of the earth or any plant or tree, but only those people who did not have the seal of God on their foreheads. 5 They were not allowed to kill them but only to torture them for five months. And the agony they suffered was like that of the sting of a scorpion when it strikes.
6 During those days people will seek death but will not find it; they will long to die, but death will elude them.

10 They had tails with stingers, like scorpions, and in their tails they had power to torment people for five months. 11 They had as king over them the angel of the Abyss, whose name in Hebrew is Abaddon and in Greek is Apollyon (that is, Destroyer). 12 The first woe is past; two other woes are yet to come.


There has been a lot of good provable information provided of a pre trib rapture , you simply have many misunderstanding of what scripture actually says and means

I will provide the kicker that can only be defined as pre trib rapture ,
be back in a few hours

Major1 said:

Just some friendly advice. When you copy and paste is such a "BLOCK" method, it makes reading it impossible.

Try using paragraphs, commas and such.

Now then, those that reject a Pre-tribulation Rapture say, "Nowhere in the Bible does it directly say that the Church will be raptured before the tribulation."

Pre-trib opponents should have thought this one through because any pre-tribulationist has the same right to say, “Nowhere in the Bible does it directly say the Church will go through the tribulation.”

Jesus did say in Matt. 24:44.......
“Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh”.

The only time frame I can think of when we believers would not be expecting Jesus to return would have to be before the tribulation.

Click to expand...

Matt.24:44 Such an hour as ye think not the Son of Man cometh. For those that are taken by the antichrist, this is exactly the way that it will be. You need to skip back up to verse 43 - read it. Churches are going to be here during the tribulation! Revelation 1:10 "I was in the spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet." OPEN YOUR EYES. This verse is the key to understanding the book of Revelation. Without a clear and full understanding of it, the entire book just will not make any sense. The sequence of order will seem strange. "I"; this is John speaking and telling us where he was. "I was in the Spirit", not in his FLESH BODY; "on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet". John is taken forward in time, 'in the Spirit', to the Lord. The "day of the Lord "is not referring to Sunday or Saturday. This is the same "day of the Lord" that Paul speaks about in 1 Thessalonians 5:2, as "coming as a thief in the night". Later in the 11 Thessalonians 2:2-3 Paul makes it clear that at the "day of the Lord "Christ's return will not happen until "after there will be great falling away first and "that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition". Satan must be revealed in his role as the antichrist first, before that seventh trumpet can sound. Every verse that you read in Revelation 1:10. From verse 10 to the end of chapter twenty two, will be viewed from the Lord's day, either looking backwards or forwards a short period of time. If you don't come to that point of time in your understanding with John the rest of what he is saying just will not make any sense. Most churches of today don't realize that at the sounding of the seventh trumpet and Jesus Christ's return, all the churches will still be right here on earth. This was pointed out in the first chapter Revelation. The churches John saw, the "seven candlesticks", were right here on earth on the "day of the Lord". On the "day of the Lord" the entire religious tribulation is over, finished, and the churches are still on the earth! If you are looking for a 'rapture', for some one to fly you out of here before Satan comes to earth in his role as the antichrist, as so many churches teach; it means that you will have already worshipped the antichrist at the time this vision of John. The Book of Revelation separates the man of God, from the puff of smoke found in many churches today. When the antichrist [Satan] does appear as savior of the world the lazy Christian will follow him, thinking that the antichrist is Jesus Christ. The churches are going to be here!

Earth and heaven said:

Matthew 24:44 For those that are taken by the antichrist, this is exactly the way that it will be. You need to skip back up to verse 43 -read it. Lets find out what the Bible say about the churches being here during the tribulation. Revelation 1:10 "I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet." Open your eyes right now, this verse is the key to understanding the book of Revelation. Without a clear and full understanding of it, the entire book just will not make sense. The sequence of order will seem strange. "I", this is John speaking and telling us where he was. "I was in the Spirit", not in the FLESH BODY; "on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet." John is taken forward in time, "in the Spirit", to the day of the Lord. The "day of the Lord" is not referring to Sunday or Saturday. This is the same "day of the Lord" Paul speaks about this in 1 Thessalonians 5:2, as coming, as a thief in the night". Later in 11 Thessalonians 2:-3 Paul makes it clear that at the "Day of the Lord" Christ's return will not happen until after there will be a great falling away first and "that man of sin be revealed, in his role as the antichrist first, before that seventh trumpet can sounds. Every verse that you read in Revelation 1:10 from this verse 10 to the end of chapter twenty two, will be viewed from the Lords day, either looking backwards or forwards a short period of time. If you don't come to that point of time in your understanding with John, the rest of what he is saying just will not make any sense. Most churches of today don't realize that at the sounding of the seventh trumpet and Jesus Christ's return, all of the churches will still be right here on earth. This was pointed out in the first chapter. The churches John saw, the seven candlesticks", were right here on earth on the "Day of the Lord". On the Day of the Lord the entire tribulation is over, finished, and the churches are STILL ON THE EARTH! If you are looking for a "rapture", for someone to fly you out of here before Satan comes to earth in his role as the antichrist, as so many churches teach; it means you will have already worshipped the antichrist at the time this vision of John. You have taken Satan's name. Repent before its to late for you and your family!

Click to expand...

I can not in anyway agree with your own exegesis of Scripture.

Have you done any Seminary or College work in Biblical studies or are you home schooled?

seventysevens said:

What fictional book are you reading
7 years from the signing of the peace treaty , the last 7 years of Human run government begins ,, at the mid point is the start of the Great Tribulation,

Jesus said Himself that the 42 months is the time period NOT 5 months , the 5 months is in reference to the sting and torment that the demons that are released from the pit will cause on mankind-they will not kill just cause pain and torment
Rv
3 And out of the smoke locusts came down on the earth and were given power like that of scorpions of the earth. 4 They were told not to harm the grass of the earth or any plant or tree, but only those people who did not have the seal of God on their foreheads. 5 They were not allowed to kill them but only to torture them for five months. And the agony they suffered was like that of the sting of a scorpion when it strikes.
6 During those days people will seek death but will not find it; they will long to die, but death will elude them.

10 They had tails with stingers, like scorpions, and in their tails they had power to torment people for five months. 11 They had as king over them the angel of the Abyss, whose name in Hebrew is Abaddon and in Greek is Apollyon (that is, Destroyer). 12 The first woe is past; two other woes are yet to come.


There has been a lot of good provable information provided of a pre trib rapture , you simply have many misunderstanding of what scripture actually says and means

I will provide the kicker that can only be defined as pre trib rapture ,
be back in a few hours

Click to expand...

Agreed. Anyone who understands the Tribulation Period to be 5 months based on Rev. 9:5 has more problems than just that.

Earth and heaven said:

Matthew 24:44 For those that are taken by the antichrist, this is exactly the way that it will be. You need to skip back up to verse 43 -read it. Lets find out what the Bible say about the churches being here during the tribulation. Revelation 1:10 "I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet." Open your eyes right now, this verse is the key to understanding the book of Revelation. Without a clear and full understanding of it, the entire book just will not make sense. The sequence of order will seem strange. "I", this is John speaking and telling us where he was. "I was in the Spirit", not in the FLESH BODY; "on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet." John is taken forward in time, "in the Spirit", to the day of the Lord. The "day of the Lord" is not referring to Sunday or Saturday. This is the same "day of the Lord" Paul speaks about this in 1 Thessalonians 5:2, as coming, as a thief in the night". Later in 11 Thessalonians 2:-3 Paul makes it clear that at the "Day of the Lord" Christ's return will not happen until after there will be a great falling away first and "that man of sin be revealed, in his role as the antichrist first, before that seventh trumpet can sounds. Every verse that you read in Revelation 1:10 from this verse 10 to the end of chapter twenty two, will be viewed from the Lords day, either looking backwards or forwards a short period of time. If you don't come to that point of time in your understanding with John, the rest of what he is saying just will not make any sense. Most churches of today don't realize that at the sounding of the seventh trumpet and Jesus Christ's return, all of the churches will still be right here on earth. This was pointed out in the first chapter. The churches John saw, the seven candlesticks", were right here on earth on the "Day of the Lord". On the Day of the Lord the entire tribulation is over, finished, and the churches are STILL ON THE EARTH! If you are looking for a "rapture", for someone to fly you out of here before Satan comes to earth in his role as the antichrist, as so many churches teach; it means you will have already worshipped the antichrist at the time this vision of John. You have taken Satan's name. Repent before its to late for you and your family!

Click to expand...

I do not wish to be rude about this, but it seems to me that the reasoning behind all of your comments can only be described as convoluted and muddled, with scriptures wrenched out of context and meanings ascribed which are ridiculously far-fetched.

It seems that people like yourself who go in for these 'Bible Forums' no doubt think they are finding out things that the rest of us don't know (Gnosticism), but these surreal and fanciful teachings are leading them, not into Jehovah's kingdom, but - the more progress they make in this delusion - rather further and further away from any prospect of the eternal life they seek.

I once again urge you to get into a good Protestant Bible believing church and start at Christianity 101 and get some basic study done.

2Ti 4:3 ...........
"For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears".

2Ti 4:4 ...........
"And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables".

Hi! I just found this 2.5 year old thread and could any of us have imagined what we would be in the midst of in 2020 when you wrote it!? I agree with you Marilyn. I think it MAY be this Feast of Trumpets that we hear the trumpet and are raptured. Those left behind will endure a seven year (days of awe) tribulation to a Yom Kippur 2nd coming and Judgement (possibly in 2027)

Why do I think that?
That is a long explanation and I would be happy to discuss it with any of you if you are still following this thread!

Keith Patterson said:

Hi! I just found this 2.5 year old thread and could any of us have imagined what we would be in the midst of in 2020 when you wrote it!? I agree with you Marilyn. I think it MAY be this Feast of Trumpets that we hear the trumpet and are raptured. Those left behind will endure a seven year (days of awe) tribulation to a Yom Kippur 2nd coming and Judgement (possibly in 2027)

Why do I think that?
That is a long explanation and I would be happy to discuss it with any of you if you are still following this thread!

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Year? Yes.

But I'm really leaning towards Pentecost for the fulfillment, rather than Feast of Trumpets. But I was a Feast of Trumpets guy for years, especially after the Revelation 12:1 sign was fulfilled during the 2017 Feast of Trumpets timeframe. So, I get where you are coming from.

But hasn’t Pentecost already been fulfilled? The feast of trumpets is the next feast and the unknown hour and day that Christ refers to would be understood as meaning that feast since only the witnesses would know when they saw the moon. Also the use of "Trumpet" in Rev4:1, 1Thess4:16, etc. Why are you thinking Pentecost ? Because of harvest celebration?

Keith Patterson said:

But hasn’t Pentecost already been fulfilled? The feast of trumpets is the next feast and the unknown hour and day that Christ refers to would be understood as meaning that feast since only the witnesses would know when they saw the moon. Also the use of "Trumpet" in Rev4:1, 1Thess4:16, etc. Why are you thinking Pentecost ? Because of harvest celebration?

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Fulfilled? I used to think so, but no. Jesus has not yet fulfilled that feast. The other six feasts have a specific act by Jesus we call a fulfillment, but somehow gloss over Pentecost because God did something on that day, but it wasn't Jesus Himself. The Spiritconceving the Church doesn't fulfill the day any more then the Spirit conceiving Jesus within Mary fulfills the first coming.

The assumption is Jesus literally and personally fulfilled the first three feasts, Passover, Unleavened Bread, and Firstfruits through His death, burial, and resurrection. Then the fall feasts are said to be fulfilled later through His second coming, execution of the judgment and setting up of a kingdom. But we somehow let Pentecost slide without direct personal fulfillment.

Yes, it has to do with the harvest pattern. It has to because that's the pattern Paul uses for the resurrections in 1 Corinthians 15. the pattern cannot be broken, because it's biblical. the Firstfruits portion of the harvest literally fulfilled when on the day of Firstfruits as the priests were lifting up a sheaf of grain to the Lord, Jesus and many saints rose from the dead (Matt 27) and ascended to the Father. Paul confirms this when he tells us that Jesus is our Firstfruits.

The next harvest feast, Pentecost, has an attribute similar to Firstfruits, in that two leaven loaves of bread are offered up to the Lord, which on Firstfruits typified a literal ascension to the Father. Not doing so again would break the pattern. It is also the only feast God associates with the main portion of the Harvest in Leviticus 23. The Pentecost patterns are so numerous, there have been books written about them. For example, it's the only feast without a certain date. It's 50 days from the first sabbath after Passover, which marks the Feast of Firstfruits (using the counting of the Sadducees). It's also typified in Exodus 19 where the people were to clean their garments, declared free of bondage and slavery, and then approach the mountain when the trumpet of the Lord sounded, also on Pentecost. This trumpet of the Lord, and the Trumpet of the Lord which sounds at the time of the rapture, or the main harvest, are the first and last trumps of the Lord.

There are three actual feasts given in scripture, the two I mentioned and Feast of Trumpets. It is these three feasts where the Lord required a gathering of the males in Jerusalem (more gathering lingo). I don't have the time at the moment to go into detail (because it's time for me to work), but it is that day that will likely be the third phase of the harvest, the resurrection of the gleanings, a.k.a. tribulation saints (Revelation 6:9-11, 20:4). This is the resurrection post-tribbers love the most as they have their eyes in this and forsake the other two, even though one is already a historical event. Also, if you look real close to the times Jesus uses the language of this feast, not knowing the day or hour, the events described are those associated with the end of the trib.

Expired Twinkey said:

The assumption is Jesus literally and personally fulfilled the first three feasts, Passover, Unleavened Bread, and Firstfruits through His death, burial, and resurrection. Then the fall feasts are said to be fulfilled later through His second coming, execution of the judgment and setting up of a kingdom. But we somehow let Pentecost slide without direct personal fulfillment.

Click to expand...

That does make sense. I was thinking Trinity so the Holy Spirit would be the same as Jesus fulfilling it after he ascended to heaven.

Reign2020 said:

With many rapture theories out there, it can get confusing to a lot of Christians.

It looks like the martyrs are the blessed ones who were decapitated because of Christ.

I'm just not sure about the theory where you'll be raptured without going through any persecutions or losing your head under the cold blade of Hassan chop.

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I love the Bugs Bunny reference!! I've always thought of my sins being forgiven completely and utterly so that the tribulation wasn't necessary for us and that the martyrs you are referring to are the people who become Christians during the Tribulation. Of course, I read the Left Behind series after becoming a Christian so that may have majorly influenced my thinking, but I haven't read anything that makes me believe that God will make the Church suffer through the tribulation. Rev 3:10 “Because you have kept my word of patient endurance, I will keep you from the hour of trial which is coming on the whole world, to try those who dwell upon the earth.” Does the Church need to be "tried"?

Marilyn C said:

Hi Keith,

Yes it would be good to discuss this topic again. I have changed my Jewish months a bit as I had left out the month of mourning. However I would like to hear what you say first before I give my update.

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Marilyn,

I don't have many facts to back it up. I came here hoping to find some! I just see what is going on around me and it seems like the "birth pangs" are growing a lot stronger. Israel is a nation again. The generation that witnessed that is about to pass away. Iran, Russia, Turkey and others seem to be aligning for the Gog and Magog war which could lead to the fall of Islam and the rise of the EU. We are suffering through a pandemic (gray horse rider)which may cause a lot of death or has at least changed the world and set us up for a huge crisis for the next pandemic when we don't lock down. The USA, Iran and Israel seem to be on a path to a huge war, The USA just deployed a small scale tactical nuke on a submarine, Iran just cloned a missile of Israel's that can reach Tel Aviv, We are on the brink of world wide depression and food/water shortages (black horse rider), The Jewish nation is close to having everything it needs to rebuild the temple including a red heifer (I was in Jerusalem the day they consecrated the new altar), There is a transform fault line under Jerusalem that could cause a major earthquake whenever God wants that could destroy the mosque in Jerusalem and set up a situation where the temple could be rebuilt, Trump and "Emmanuel" Macron (Last name means "a mark") both have peace plans ready. Emmanuel says he will unveil his if Trump's doesn't work. Emmanuel Macron has created an EU defense force that started with 10 European armies (now it is up to 14 I think). Emmanuel Macron is proposing world wide peace in the face of this pandemic and has supposedly got the UN security council to almost agree to it, The Pope (who many Catholics disagree with in a few ways) has echoed this peace plan. The pope dropped the "Vicar of Christ" from his title. Saudi Arabia and Russia and the US are engaged in an oil war which has helped to cause (or at least hasn't prevented) the price of oil to drop below $0 (how is that even possible?)

The death from this virus in the USA (where I live) is doubling every 8 days. It seems to be flattening but we are easing up on restrictions and new strains will probably develop (like they always do). There is a lot of anger about the virus directed toward China and there is just a lot of anger.

During the seal judgements which seem to occur right after the rapture (and maybe partially caused by the rapture itself? when all the babies are taken by the Christian God! Just like when God took Pharaoh's son?!) put a 1/4 of the world in peril. That is almost 2 billion people. Between the virus, the starvation it will cause, and the possible Middle East (Gog and Magog War) coming that may use tactical nukes or maybe God will just send angels, earthquakes, meteors and volcanoes to end it (Because it might take actually seeing Angels to get Israel to build the temple and begin animal sacrifices again).

It may not be the end. I am sure lots of people have thought that disasters in the past were the end!!! It just seems like it could be and it just seems to be lining up perfectly and we are told to watch for the signs so I am trying to do that. I would appreciate any help you all can give me!!

1. The Day of Atonement – 10th of Tishri.

This is Israel`s most important day of the year. Thus I believe it is when they will start their sacrifices.

....I..............X.............2,300 days.......................................I.....>

.................10th Tishri................................................................>

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LastSeven said: ↑
So many issues with your post, but let's start with this one. Daniel 8 is in the past, not the future.

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I agree...........

Marilyn C said:

Hi LastSeven,
Thank you for your comment. So I see that you believe Dan. 8 is in the past. I believe that some of it is, but that is another topic altogether & would be good for its own thread.
So meanwhile, I`ll just wait to see if people will discuss the details as regards the `future` view of Dan.8:13 & the rapture.

regards, Marilyn.

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What better way to look at the future view than to look back at past fulfillment.
I posted this on another thread and if you would like for me to delete it from your thread
I wrapped it in quotes:

2300 days

Biblical prophecies can have numerous fulfillments.

Don't forget, Jesus mentions Daniel in His famous 1st century 70ad Olivet Discourse.
Some consider the "rapture" was the fleeing of Christian Jews from Judea before Rome sieged it.

Will that event be repeated upon the Jews and Jerusalem in the future is anyone's guess.?

The Sanctuary mentioned in Dan 8 is also mentioned in Reve 11:2 and mirrors Luke 21:20

Luke 21:20 “But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation has come near. 24 “And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. [Revelation 13:10]
And Jerusalem will be trampled<3961> by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.” [Revelation 11:2]
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Some believe this is speaking of Herods's rebuilt Temple, but that is for a different topic:

Revelation 11:2 and the Court without of the Sanctuary, be Casting-Out! out-side, and no it thou should be measuring, that it was given to the Nations
and they shall be trampling<3961> the holy City forty two months. [Luke 21:20]
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A day for year is not mentioned as in some other OT passages [Numbers 14:34 Ezekiel 4:6]
Best to look at numerous translations and commentaries on it.

Here are some commentaries on it and I will only mention the "Pulpit":

Daniel 8:13 Commentaries:

Pulpit Commentary

Daniel 8:13 Verse 13. - Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?

We would render the speech of the angel, "How long - the vision, the sacrifice - the sin of desolation to give the sanctuary and the service to be trodden underfoot?" as if Daniel had only heard snatches of what was said; we would, we may say, omit the "and" before "sanctuary." The Septuagint translators may have omitted צָבָא (tzaba), thinking only of its ordinary meaning, "host," forgetful of the fact that it is used of the temple service in Numbers 4:23. These angels are most interested in the length of time that the sanctuary shall remain desolate.
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And one on vs 14.

Daniel 8:14 Commentaries:

Pulpit Commentary

Verse 14. - And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.
The Massoretic reading is here clearly corrupt. "Unto me" ought to be "unto him," as proved by the versions and necessitated by sense. The LXX. is somewhat violent in construction, but means, "And he said to him, Until evenings and mornings are two thousand three hundred days, and the sanctuary shall be purified." Theodotion agrees closely with the LXX., only he has "five hundred" instead of "three hundred.
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According to Josephus, the Jewish Rebellion began in 66 ad and ended with the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple in 70AD after about a 5 month siege.

The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD
CHRONOLOGY IMMEDIATELY SURROUNDING THE WAR

Stage 1: Murder of James the Just, "Opposition High Priest" ; Irrevocable Split: 62
Stage 2: General Revolt in Jerusalem ; Zealot Occupation of Masada: August-September 66
Stage 3: The Campaign of Cestius Gallus and the Defeat of the Twelfth Legion: October-November 66
Stage 4: End of Collaborative Government, Priesthood ; General Flight: November 66 - March 67
Part 6: Vespasian Subdues Northern and Western Palestine: December 66 - December 68
Part 7: Three-way Power Struggle within Jerusalem After Roman Retreat: January 68 - May 70
Part 8: Romans Breach City Walls and Leave Jerusalem Desolate: May 10 - September 10, 70.

If literal days are meant, 2300 days would be approx about 6 - 6 1/2 yrs

Pulpit Commentary
Verse 14. - And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed. The Massoretic reading is here clearly corrupt. "Unto me" ought to be "unto him," as proved by the versions and necessitated by sense. The LXX. is somewhat violent in construction, but means, "And he said to him, Until evenings and mornings are two thousand three hundred days, and the sanctuary shall be purified." Theodotion agrees closely with the LXX., only he has "five hundred" instead of "three hundred." The Peshitta agrees with the Massoretic, save as above mentioned - "him" instead of "me," and the last clause, which ought naturally to rendered "and the sacrifice be purified."
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It took about 5 months or 150 days to conquer Jerusalem.

This memorable siege terminated on the eighth day of the ninth month, A. D. 70 : its duration was nearly five months, the Romans having invested the city on the fourteenth day of the fourth month, preceeding.

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I did a board title search on that topic and came up with numerous results.

2300 days
July 22, 2014 • 82 posts • 3421 views
Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum
#1 - PhillipLaSpino
Dan.8:13-14, "I have read most all the commentaries concerning the following verses and few have little to say, and the others make little sense after I considered the context in which they are written. What are your thoughts concerning ...

Daniel's 2300 days
April 08, 2013 • 8 posts • 1155 views
Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum
#1 - tranquil
The meaning of Daniel 8's 2300 days is solved. Seriously. Take Dan 9's 70 weeks (literally) to get 490 days. 1st woe is Trumpet 5 which is 5 months, 150 days. 2nd woe, Trumpet 6 is Rev. 9:15's And the four angels were loosed ...

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Douggg said:

trying to get the system to work the way I want it to.... .....

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Now now, let's keep that between ourselves..........

Earth and heaven said: ↑
. The tribulation will only be 5 months read Revelation9:5.

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Good catch!

seventysevens said:

What fictional book are you reading
7 years from the signing of the peace treaty , the last 7 years of Human run government begins ,, at the mid point is the start of the Great Tribulation,

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Hit below the belt
Only if one calls the Bible fictional. This is why I find "rapture" threads so entertaining.

Actually the tribulation for 1st century Israel did last about 7 yrs if you count from the start of the Jewish rebellion against Rome to the final demolition of Jerusalem in 70 ad, then the Roman conquest of the Jewish rebel stronghold of Masada in 73 ad.

The wrath upon Jerusalem however lasted about 5 months. [The great City in Revelation 17-19]

Matthew 24
19 And woe to those with child, and to those giving suck in those days;
22 And if those days were not shortened, no flesh would have been saved; but because of the chosen, shall those days be shortened
Luke 21:23 “But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people

Revelation 9:5 And was given to them that not they should be killing them, but that they should be being tormented five months And the torment of them as torment of a scorpion/skorpiou <4651>, whenever it should be striking a man; 6 And in those days the men shall be seeking the death, and not no shall be finding it; and shall be desiring/yearning to be dying, and the death is fleeing from them.
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It was the Jewish zealots that broke the so called "peace treaty" with Rome. [read Josephus and the Jewish Wars]

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MAY, A.D. 66 - JERUSALEM
The Roman Procurator Florus demands 17 talents from the Jewish Temple treasury. This is the triggering insult for the Jews to begin their revolt. The Roman garrison in Jerusalem is overrun by rebels, who take control of the city. The rebels cause cessation of all sacrifices to the Roman Emperor, thus challenging Rome head-on.
The Jewish War, 4.4.5 286-287

The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD

Meanwhile the horrors of famine grew still more melancholy and afflictive.
The Jews, for of food were at length compelled to eat their belts, their sandals, the skins of their shields, dried grass, and even the ordure of oxen. In the depth or this horrible extremity, a Jewess of noble family urged by the intolerable cravings of hunger, slew her infant child, and prepared it for a meal ;

At the recital of this melancholy and affecting occurrence, the whole city stood aghast, and poured forth their congratulations on those whom death had hurried away from such heartrending scenes...............

This memorable siege terminated on the eighth day of the ninth month, A. D. 70 : its duration was nearly five months, the Romans having invested the city on the fourteenth day of the fourth month, preceeding.