The Doctrine of Eternal Torture in Hell

Der Alter said:

Relevance? I have been discussing the Greek words "aion" and "aionios" in the NT not Hebrew words in the OT.

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Relevance? Besides the fact you've argued the same thing re olam & ad. And olam is rarely not rendered as aion/ios by the Hebrew scholars of the LXX in hundreds of occurrences. And BTW aion/ios appears for olam in the LXX of all the verses:

I have considered the days of old, the years of ancient times. (Psa.77:5)

I have reckoned the days of old,[qedem/6924] The years of the ages.[owlam im] (Psa.77:5)

I considered the days of old, and remembered ancient years.[αἰώνια/166] (Psa.77:5, LXX, Brenton)

Deuteronomy 32:7
"Remember the days of old,[owlam] Consider the years of all generations. Ask your father, and he will inform you, Your elders, and they will tell you.

Remember the days of old,[αἰῶνος/165] consider the years for past ages: ask thy father, and he shall relate to thee, thine elders, and they shall tell thee. (Dt.32:7, LXX, Brenton)


Isaiah 51:9
Awake, awake, put on strength, O arm of the LORD; Awake as in the days of old[owlam-im], the generations of long ago. Was it not You who cut Rahab in pieces, Who pierced the dragon?

Awake, awake, O Jerusalem, and put on the strength of thine arm; awake as in the early time,[αἰῶνος/165] as the ancient generation. (Isa.51:9, LXX, Brenton)

Der Alter said:

Twisting scripture, 2 Cor 5:1 does not say “heavens,” plural, it says “in heaven” singular.

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Actually the vast majority of translations say "heavens", plural:

2 Corinthians 5:1 Interlinear: For we have known that if our earthly house of the tabernacle may be thrown down, a building from God we have, an house not made with hands -- age-during -- in the heavens,

eleos1954 said:

C


Clarification: Believing NOT burning in hell forever and ever being Yes, Biblically true.

May the Lord Bless you as well.

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Would you please then post the Scriptures which validate your opinion.

Well ... there are several "elements" involved here:

Usage and understanding of what hell is? The usage and/or understanding of Forever.
Mortal versus immortal. What happens when one dies? It's a "package of a lot things" And what these words mean biblically. I also, study History, using the encyclopedia (Wikipedia) to learn about different beliefs and where different beliefs originate from.

The way I "Decipher" things out in the Bible is by going to either the original Hebrew or Greek languages and determine the meaning of words used. I do this because those languages are a lot more fluent/descriptive than the English language. Going back to the original languages provide a lot of clarity. Now, that may seem difficult? No, I am so thankful for the internet and this is easy and quickly done. I use very valuable "tools" here: www.biblehub.com

I study the Bible topically, by words (not exclusively). Pick a word or words, run a search on through the entire Bible and see how those words are used in context and/or in the original languages. It is VERY enlightening, provides clarification many times.

This particular conversation and my response was directed mainly at the term "burning forever". The word "forever" biblically. Does the word "forever" always mean enternally? No

The word forever can mean different things, a age, a long duration, eternity. maybe others.

But even so using verses in the English Language do clarify one another.

With that being said, without getting "too deep" into Greek or Hebrew Lets look at some verses in English. I however do recommend one does.

Malachi 4:1,3. (speaking of the final judgement)

Malachi 4:1,3. "For behold the day is coming burning like and oven, and all the proud, yes allude wickedly shall be as stubble. And the day that is coming shall burn them up, says the Lord of hosts,that shall leave them neither root nor branch. . . You shall trample the wicked for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet."

Psalms 37:9-10

9 For the evildoers shall be cut off,
but those who wait for the LORD shall inherit the land.

10 In just a little while, the wicked will be no more;
though you look carefully at his place, he will not be there.

Revelation 14:11

11 And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever ....

Doesn't sound like God is going to be tormenting the wicked for ever to me. Nope, they are going to be totally destroyed by fire and be no more.

I like to try and leave things on a positive note:

God Is Love

7Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God. 8The one who does not love does not know God, for God is love. 9By this the love of God was manifested in us, that God has sent His only begotten Son into the world so that we might live through Him. 10In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins. 11Beloved, if God so loved us, we also ought to love one another. 12No one has seen God at any time; if we love one another, God abides in us, and His love is perfected in us. 13By this we know that we abide in Him and He in us, because He has given us of His Spirit. 14We have seen and testify that the Father has sent the Son to be the Savior of the world.

God is love. He does not delight in torture, pain, suffering (even for the wicked). In the end the unsaved, the fallen angels and Satan and the earth will be burned up and destroyed. Death and sin and the consequences thereof, ALL will be no more. Amen. Then he will make everything new and perfect and we will live with Him. WOW, live with God.

It is because of sin here on earth we experience terrible things not because of God. Why does God allow this to continue to go on? Because God wants as many saved as possible to receive eternal perfect life in Heaven with Him. Without sin and it's destruction forever (eternally). He is long suffering to this end. He suffers. Don't think he doesn't.

The thing about love .... is one can not truly have it without free will. He loves us so much he gives us the choice to love Him ... or not. True Love, willingly.

What an Awesome, Loving God we have. Amen.

It is so sad that many people distort the character of God, who He Really is.

So when people ask and say: How can a loving God torture people in Hell, burning them forever and ever? What loving God would do this? They are correct. But what they don't know is that the truth is ...... He doesn't.

To me this false teaching turns more people away from God than almost any teaching out there.

Sorry this was so long ;o)

ClementofA said:

Relevance? Besides the fact you've argued the same thing re olam & ad. And olam is rarely not rendered as aion/ios by the Hebrew scholars of the LXX in hundreds of occurrences. And BTW aion/ios appears for olam in the LXX of all the verses:
I have considered the days of old, the years of ancient times. (Psa.77:5)
I have reckoned the days of old,[qedem/6924] The years of the ages.[owlam im] (Psa.77:5)
I considered the days of old, and remembered ancient years.[αἰώνια/166] (Psa.77:5, LXX, Brenton)
Deuteronomy 32:7
"Remember the days of old,[owlam] Consider the years of all generations. Ask your father, and he will inform you, Your elders, and they will tell you.
Remember the days of old,[αἰῶνος/165] consider the years for past ages: ask thy father, and he shall relate to thee, thine elders, and they shall tell thee. (Dt.32:7, LXX, Brenton)
Isaiah 51:9
Awake, awake, put on strength, O arm of the LORD; Awake as in the days of old[owlam-im], the generations of long ago. Was it not You who cut Rahab in pieces, Who pierced the dragon?
Awake, awake, O Jerusalem, and put on the strength of thine arm; awake as in the early time,[αἰῶνος/165] as the ancient generation. (Isa.51:9, LXX, Brenton)

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Thirty six [36] OT verses which define/describe the word “olam.”
In this vs. “olam” is paired with “unto all generations.” “Age(s),”a finite period, does not equate to “unto all generations,”“for ever” does.
In this vs. “olam” is paired with “continually.” “Age(s),” a finite period, does not equate to “continually,” “for ever” does.
In this vs. “olam” is paired with “length of days”. “Age(s),” a finite period, does not equate to length of days, “for ever and ever” does.
In this vs. “olam” and "ad" are paired with “all generations,” “Age(s),” a finite period, does not equate to “all generations”, “for ever and ever” does.
In this vs. “olam” is paired with “to all generations,”“age(s),” a finite period, does not equate to “to all generations,” “for ever” does.
In this vs. “olam” is paired with “unto all generations,”“age(s),” a finite period, does not equate to “to all generations,” “for ever” does. ["unto all generations" also Psa 100:5, 106:31]
In this vs. “olam” is contrasted with “the wicked shall be cut off,””age(s),”a finite period, is not opposite of “unto all generations,” “for ever” does.
In this vs. עולם is described “nothing can be added or taken away from God's acts” “age(s),“a finite period does not equate with “nothing can be added or taken away from God's acts,” “for ever” does.
In this vs. “olam” is equated with “shall not be abolished”, “age(s),” a finite period, is not opposite of “shall not be abolished,” “forever” is.
In this vs. “olam” is paired with “from generation to generation” “age(s),”a finite period, does not equate to “from generation to generation.” “for ever” does.
In this vs. “olam” is described “will not pass away” and “never be destroyed,” “age(s),” a finite period, does not equate to “will not pass away,""never be destroyed”, “everlasting dominion” does.
In this vs. “olam” is paired with “will not be forgotten.” “age(s) a finite period, does not equate to “Will not be forgotten,””everlasting” does.
In this vs. “olam” is paired with “will not be forgotten,””age(s),” a finite period, does not equate to “will not be forgotten,” ”everlasting” does.
In this vs. “olam” is paired with “will never die,””age(s),” a finite period, does not equate to “will never die,” ”everlasting” does.
In this verse עולם/olam is paired with “unto their generations.” “Age(s)” does not equate to “unto their generations.” "for ever" does.
In this verse עולם/olam is paired with “die not” and “throughout their generations.” “Ages” does not equate to "die not," and “throughout their generations.”
In this verse עולם/olam and . עד/ad are paired with “throughout their generations.” “Age(s)” does not equate to “throughout their generations,” “for ever and ever” does.
In this verse עולם/olam and עד/ad are paired with “shall not pass.” “Age(s)” does not equate to “shall not pass.” “forever and ever” does.
In this verse “ עולם/olam sign” is paired with ”shall not be cut off.” “Age(s)” does not equate to “shall not be cut off.” “everlasting" does.
In this verse “ עולם/olam sign” is paired with ”shall not be cut off.” “Age(s)” does not equate to “shall not be cut off.” “everlasting” does.
In this verse “ עולם/olam covenant” is paired with "I will not turn away from them" and ”they shall not depart from me.” “Age(s)” does not equate to "I will no turn away from them" and “they shall not depart from me.” “everlasting” does.
In this verse “ עולם/olam covenant” is paired with "shall not be forgotten" "Age(s) does not equate to "shall not be forgotten," perpetual does.
In this verse “ עולם/olam” is paired with “generation to generation.” “Age(s) does not equate to “generation to generation”, “for ever” does.

Der Alter said:

Thirty six [36] OT verses which define/describe the word “olam.”

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Irrelevant, as it didn't address this:

Der Alter said:

Please show me any verse where aion/aionios is defined/described as less than eternal.eternity as I have done with scripture.

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I have considered the days of old, the years of ancient times. (Psa.77:5)

I have reckoned the days of old,[qedem/6924] The years of the ages.[owlam im] (Psa.77:5)

Deuteronomy 32:7
"Remember the days of old,[owlam] Consider the years of all generations. Ask your father, and he will inform you, Your elders, and they will tell you.

Isaiah 51:9
Awake, awake, put on strength, O arm of the LORD; Awake as in the days of old[owlam-im], the generations of long ago. Was it not You who cut Rahab in pieces, Who pierced the dragon?

Der Alter said:

Relevance? I have been discussing the Greek words "aion" and "aionios" in the NT not Hebrew words in the OT.

Click to expand...

Besides the fact you've argued the same thing re olam & ad. And olam is rarely not rendered as aion/ios by the Hebrew scholars of the LXX in hundreds of occurrences. And BTW aion/ios appears for olam in the LXX of all the verses:

I have considered the days of old, the years of ancient times. (Psa.77:5)

I have reckoned the days of old,[qedem/6924] The years of the ages.[owlam im] (Psa.77:5)

I considered the days of old, and remembered ancient years.[αἰώνια/166] (Psa.77:5, LXX, Brenton)

Deuteronomy 32:7
"Remember the days of old,[owlam] Consider the years of all generations. Ask your father, and he will inform you, Your elders, and they will tell you.

Remember the days of old,[αἰῶνος/165] consider the years for past ages: ask thy father, and he shall relate to thee, thine elders, and they shall tell thee. (Dt.32:7, LXX, Brenton)


Isaiah 51:9
Awake, awake, put on strength, O arm of the LORD; Awake as in the days of old[owlam-im], the generations of long ago. Was it not You who cut Rahab in pieces, Who pierced the dragon?

Awake, awake, O Jerusalem, and put on the strength of thine arm; awake as in the early time,[αἰῶνος/165] as the ancient generation. (Isa.51:9, LXX, Brenton)


http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/universalism-bible-derose.html

Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism

Universalism – The Truth Shall Make You Free

Eternity in the Bible by Gerry Beauchemin – Hope Beyond Hell

A rhetorical question:
What if maybe God intended for the subject to be unclear?
It seems we have 3-5 possible scenarios based on scripture that seem to debunk or defy each other.
Maybe He doesn't want us to know exactly.
Maybe we have to decide for ourselves based on our view of His nature and character.

That would be a real twister, wouldn't it?

In Jesus Divine Mercy Chaplet of which Jesus delivered to Saint Sister Faustina in the 1930s of which directly reflects Gods Holy Word in every one of Jesus/God/Holy Spirits Holy Messages and within Jesus Divine Mercy Chaplet and Novena itself, Jesus says of The Holy Souls in Purgatory and then later on the souls on their way to eternal damnation and this is one of the reasons I post Jesus Divine Mercy Novena on these threads in relation to both Holy Purgatory and Hell - Jesus Himself requests us to pray to Him and our Eternal Father, God our Heavenly Father for the Holy Souls in Purgatory for their salvation and for all souls on their way to eternal damnation - Hell - the following:

First Day:
Today bring to Me ALL MANKIND, ESPECIALLY ALL SINNERS, and immerse them in the ocean of My mercy. In this way you will console Me in the bitter grief into which the loss of souls plunges Me.

Most Merciful Jesus, whose very nature it is to have compassion on us and to forgive us, do not look upon our sins but upon our trust which we place in Your infinite goodness. Receive us all into the abode of Your Most Compassionate Heart, and never let us escape from It. We beg this of You by Your love which unites You to the Father and the Holy Spirit.

Eternal Father, turn Your merciful gaze upon all mankind and especially upon poor sinners, all enfolded in the Most Compassionate Heart of Jesus. For the sake of His sorrowful Passion show us Your mercy, that we may praise the omnipotence of Your mercy for ever and ever. Amen.


+ + +

Second Day:
Today bring to Me THE SOULS OF PRIESTS AND RELIGIOUS, and immerse them in My unfathomable mercy. It was they who gave Me strength to endure My bitter Passion. Through them as through channels My mercy flows out upon mankind.

Most Merciful Jesus, from whom comes all that is good, increase Your grace in men and women consecrated to Your service,* that they may perform worthy works of mercy; and that all who see them may glorify the Father of Mercy who is in heaven.

Eternal Father, turn Your merciful gaze upon the company of chosen ones in Your vineyard—upon the souls of priests and religious; and endow them with the strength of Your blessing. For the love of the Heart of Your Son in which they are enfolded, impart to them Your power and light, that they may be able to guide others in the way of salvation and with one voice sing praise to Your boundless mercy for ages without end. Amen.
+ + +
Third Day:
Today bring to Me ALL DEVOUT AND FAITHFUL SOULS, and immerse them in the ocean of My mercy. These souls brought Me consolation on the Way of the Cross. They were that drop of consolation in the midst of an ocean of bitterness.

Most Merciful Jesus, from the treasury of Your mercy, You impart Your graces in great abundance to each and all. Receive us into the abode of Your Most Compassionate Heart and never let us escape from It. We beg this grace of You by that most wonderous love for the heavenly Father with which Your Heart burns so fiercely.

Eternal Father, turn Your merciful gaze upon faithful souls, as upon the inheritance of Your Son. For the sake of His sorrowful Passion, grant them Your blessing and surround them with Your constant protection. Thus may they never fail in love or lose the treasure of the holy faith, but rather, with all the hosts of Angels and Saints, may they glorify Your boundless mercy for endless ages. Amen

+ + +
Fourth Day:
Today bring to Me THOSE WHO DO NOT BELIEVE IN GOD AND THOSE WHO DO NOT YET KNOW ME. I was thinking also of them during My bitter Passion, and their future zeal comforted My Heart. Immerse them in the ocean of My mercy.

Most compassionate Jesus, You are the Light of the whole world. Receive into the abode of Your Most Compassionate Heart the souls of those who do not believe in God and of those who as yet do not know You. Let the rays of Your grace enlighten them that they, too, together with us, may extol Your wonderful mercy; and do not let them escape from the abode which is Your Most Compassionate Heart.

Eternal Father, turn Your merciful gaze upon the souls of those who do not believe in You, and of those who as yet do not know You, but who are enclosed in the Most Compassionate Heart of Jesus. Draw them to the light of the Gospel. These souls do not know what great happiness it is to love You. Grant that they, too, may extol the generosity of Your mercy for endless ages. Amen.

+ + +

Fifth Day:

Today bring to Me THE SOULS OF THOSE WHO HAVE SEPARATED THEMSELVES FROM MY CHURCH, and immerse them in the ocean of My mercy. During My bitter Passion they tore at My Body and Heart, that is, My Church. As they return to unity with the Church, My wounds heal and in this way they alleviate My Passion.

Most Merciful Jesus, Goodness Itself, You do not refuse light to those who seek it of You. Receive into the abode of Your Most Compassionate Heart the souls of those who have separated themselves from Your Church. Draw them by Your light into the unity of the Church, and do not let them escape from the abode of Your Most Compassionate Heart; but bring it about that they, too, come to glorify the generosity of Your mercy.

Eternal Father, turn Your merciful gaze upon the souls of those who have separated themselves from Your Son's Church, who have squandered Your blessings and misused Your graces by obstinately persisting in their errors. Do not look upon their errors, but upon the love of Your own Son and upon His bitter Passion, which He underwent for their sake, since they, too, are enclosed in His Most Compassionate Heart. Bring it about that they also may glorify Your great mercy for endless ages. Amen.

+ + +

Sixth Day:

Today bring to Me THE MEEK AND HUMBLE SOULS AND THE SOULS OF LITTLE CHILDREN, and immerse them in My mercy. These souls most closely resemble My Heart. They strengthened Me during My bitter agony. I saw them as earthly Angels, who will keep vigil at My altars. I pour out upon them whole torrents of grace. Only the humble soul is capable of receiving My grace. I favor humble souls with My confidence.

Most Merciful Jesus, You yourself have said, "Learn from Me for I am meek and humble of heart." Receive into the abode of Your Most Compassionate Heart all meek and humble souls and the souls of little children. These souls send all heaven into ecstasy and they are the heavenly Father's favorites. They are a sweet-smelling bouquet before the throne of God; God Himself takes delight in their fragrance. These souls have a permanent abode in Your Most Compassionate Heart, O Jesus, and they unceasingly sing out a hymn of love and mercy.

Eternal Father, turn Your merciful gaze upon meek souls, upon humble souls, and upon little children who are enfolded in the abode which is the Most Compassionate Heart of Jesus. These souls bear the closest resemblance to Your Son. Their fragrance rises from the earth and reaches Your very throne. Father of mercy and of all goodness, I beg You by the love You bear these souls and by the delight You take in them: Bless the whole world, that all souls together may sing out the praises of Your mercy for endless ages. Amen.

+ + +
Seventh Day:
Today bring to Me THE SOULS WHO ESPECIALLY VENERATE AND GLORIFY MY MERCY, and immerse them in My mercy. These souls sorrowed most over my Passion and entered most deeply into My spirit. They are living images of My Compassionate Heart. These souls will shine with a special brightness in the next life. Not one of them will go into the fire of hell. I shall particularly defend each one of them at the hour of death.

Most Merciful Jesus, whose Heart is Love Itself, receive into the abode of Your Most Compassionate Heart the souls of those who particularly extol and venerate the greatness of Your mercy. These souls are mighty with the very power of God Himself. In the midst of all afflictions and adversities they go forward, confident of Your mercy; and united to You, O Jesus, they carry all mankind on their shoulders. These souls will not be judged severely, but Your mercy will embrace them as they depart from this life.

Eternal Father, turn Your merciful gaze upon the souls who glorify and venerate Your greatest attribute, that of Your fathomless mercy, and who are enclosed in the Most Compassionate Heart of Jesus. These souls are a living Gospel; their hands are full of deeds of mercy, and their hearts, overflowing with joy, sing a canticle of mercy to You, O Most High! I beg You O God:

Show them Your mercy according to the hope and trust they have placed in You. Let there be accomplished in them the promise of Jesus, who said to them that during their life, but especially at the hour of death, the souls who will venerate this fathomless mercy of His, He, Himself, will defend as His glory. Amen.

+ + +

Eighth Day:

Today bring to Me THE SOULS WHO ARE DETAINED IN PURGATORY, and immerse them in the abyss of My mercy. Let the torrents of My Blood cool down their scorching flames. All these souls are greatly loved by Me. They are making retribution to My justice. It is in your power to bring them relief. Draw all the indulgences from the treasury of My Church and offer them on their behalf. Oh, if you only knew the torments they suffer, you would continually offer for them the alms of the spirit and pay off their debt to My justice.

Most Merciful Jesus, You Yourself have said that You desire mercy; so I bring into the abode of Your Most Compassionate Heart the souls in Purgatory, souls who are very dear to You, and yet, who must make retribution to Your justice. May the streams of Blood and Water which gushed forth from Your Heart put out the flames of Purgatory, that there, too, the power of Your mercy may be celebrated.

Eternal Father, turn Your merciful gaze upon the souls suffering in Purgatory, who are enfolded in the Most Compassionate Heart of Jesus. I beg You, by the sorrowful Passion of Jesus Your Son, and by all the bitterness with which His most sacred Soul was flooded: Manifest Your mercy to the souls who are under Your just scrutiny. Look upon them in no other way but only through the Wounds of Jesus, Your dearly beloved Son; for we firmly believe that there is no limit to Your goodness and compassion. Amen.

+ + +
Ninth Day:
Today bring to Me SOULS WHO HAVE BECOME LUKEWARM, and immerse them in the abyss of My mercy. These souls wound My Heart most painfully. My soul suffered the most dreadful loathing in the Garden of Olives because of lukewarm souls. They were the reason I cried out: 'Father, take this cup away from Me, if it be Your will.' For them, the last hope of salvation is to run to My mercy.

Most compassionate Jesus, You are Compassion Itself. I bring lukewarm souls into the abode of Your Most Compassionate Heart. In this fire of Your pure love, let these tepid souls, who, like corpses, filled You with such deep loathing, be once again set aflame. O Most Compassionate Jesus, exercise the omnipotence of Your mercy and draw them into the very ardor of Your love, and bestow upon them the gift of holy love, for nothing is beyond Your power.

Eternal Father, turn Your merciful gaze upon lukewarm souls who are nonetheless enfolded in the Most Compassionate Heart of Jesus. Father of Mercy, I beg You by the bitter Passion of Your Son and by His three-hour agony on the Cross: Let them, too, glorify the abyss of Your mercy. Amen.

Now, when Jesus delivered His Holy Wound Chaplet to Saint Sister Marie Chambon among many other Holy Saints of God's, Jesus God and Holy Spirit with our Most Holy Blessed Virgin Mother Mary delivered a Holy book full of Holy Wound and Precious Holy Blood messages all directly reflecting Gods Holy Word again with some of these the following and I will need to look up some websites on Holy Saint Marie Chambon to post on this subject in this thread;

Jesus requests us to pray for all of the Holy Souls in Purgatory
For the sick and dying immersing their hearts and souls in His Holy Sacred Wounds and Precious Holy Blood -
Love to all of you and your families

Shempster said:

A rhetorical question:
What if maybe God intended for the subject to be unclear?
It seems we have 3-5 possible scenarios based on scripture that seem to debunk or defy each other.
Maybe He doesn't want us to know exactly.
Maybe we have to decide for ourselves based on our view of His nature and character.

That would be a real twister, wouldn't it?

Click to expand...

Or better yet, maybe we are just suppose to trust what He has given us and leave the rest to Him, comfortable and confident that He is a just God and would never do anything outside of His perfect Love for all men.

eleos1954 said:

Well ... there are several "elements" involved here:

Usage and understanding of what hell is? The usage and/or understanding of Forever.
Mortal versus immortal. What happens when one dies? It's a "package of a lot things" And what these words mean biblically. I also, study History, using the encyclopedia (Wikipedia) to learn about different beliefs and where different beliefs originate from.

The way I "Decipher" things out in the Bible is by going to either the original Hebrew or Greek languages and determine the meaning of words used. I do this because those languages are a lot more fluent/descriptive than the English language. Going back to the original languages provide a lot of clarity. Now, that may seem difficult? No, I am so thankful for the internet and this is easy and quickly done. I use very valuable "tools" here: www.biblehub.com

I study the Bible topically, by words (not exclusively). Pick a word or words, run a search on through the entire Bible and see how those words are used in context and/or in the original languages. It is VERY enlightening, provides clarification many times.

This particular conversation and my response was directed mainly at the term "burning forever". The word "forever" biblically. Does the word "forever" always mean enternally? No

The word forever can mean different things, a age, a long duration, eternity. maybe others.

But even so using verses in the English Language do clarify one another.

With that being said, without getting "too deep" into Greek or Hebrew Lets look at some verses in English. I however do recommend one does.

Malachi 4:1,3. (speaking of the final judgement)

Malachi 4:1,3. "For behold the day is coming burning like and oven, and all the proud, yes allude wickedly shall be as stubble. And the day that is coming shall burn them up, says the Lord of hosts,that shall leave them neither root nor branch. . . You shall trample the wicked for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet."

Psalms 37:9-10

9 For the evildoers shall be cut off,
but those who wait for the LORD shall inherit the land.

10 In just a little while, the wicked will be no more;
though you look carefully at his place, he will not be there.

Revelation 14:11

11 And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever ....

Doesn't sound like God is going to be tormenting the wicked for ever to me. Nope, they are going to be totally destroyed by fire and be no more.

I like to try and leave things on a positive note:

God Is Love

7Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God. 8The one who does not love does not know God, for God is love. 9By this the love of God was manifested in us, that God has sent His only begotten Son into the world so that we might live through Him. 10In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins. 11Beloved, if God so loved us, we also ought to love one another. 12No one has seen God at any time; if we love one another, God abides in us, and His love is perfected in us. 13By this we know that we abide in Him and He in us, because He has given us of His Spirit. 14We have seen and testify that the Father has sent the Son to be the Savior of the world.

God is love. He does not delight in torture, pain, suffering (even for the wicked). In the end the unsaved, the fallen angels and Satan and the earth will be burned up and destroyed. Death and sin and the consequences thereof, ALL will be no more. Amen. Then he will make everything new and perfect and we will live with Him. WOW, live with God.

It is because of sin here on earth we experience terrible things not because of God. Why does God allow this to continue to go on? Because God wants as many saved as possible to receive eternal perfect life in Heaven with Him. Without sin and it's destruction forever (eternally). He is long suffering to this end. He suffers. Don't think he doesn't.

The thing about love .... is one can not truly have it without free will. He loves us so much he gives us the choice to love Him ... or not. True Love, willingly.

What an Awesome, Loving God we have. Amen.

It is so sad that many people distort the character of God, who He Really is.

So when people ask and say: How can a loving God torture people in Hell, burning them forever and ever? What loving God would do this? They are correct. But what they don't know is that the truth is ...... He doesn't.

To me this false teaching turns more people away from God than almost any teaching out there.

Sorry this was so long ;o)

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I am right there with you my friend. I HATE the Bible teaching on Hell and the lost being tormented forever and forever.

Just the thought makes me sick because I have so many family and friends who went to hell because of their in-belief.

But, that does not change or alter the fact that we see exactly that in the Bible.

Do YOU have any idea of how many Scriptures YOU have to physically remove from the Bible which state that the wicked lost will be tormented in HELL ETERNALLY?????

Ask you self these 3 questions and you will always be able to comprehend the Word of God.........
1. Did God say it?
2. Can God lie?
3. Is hell real?

Galilee63 said:

In Jesus Divine Mercy Chaplet of which Jesus delivered to Saint Sister Faustina in the 1930s of which directly reflects Gods Holy Word in every one of Jesus/God/Holy Spirits Holy Messages and within Jesus Divine Mercy Chaplet and Novena itself, Jesus says of The Holy Souls in Purgatory and then later on the souls on their way to eternal damnation and this is one of the reasons I post Jesus Divine Mercy Novena on these threads in relation to both Holy Purgatory and Hell - Jesus Himself requests us to pray to Him and our Eternal Father, God our Heavenly Father for the Holy Souls in Purgatory for their salvation and for all souls on their way to eternal damnation - Hell - the following:

First Day:
Today bring to Me ALL MANKIND, ESPECIALLY ALL SINNERS, and immerse them in the ocean of My mercy. In this way you will console Me in the bitter grief into which the loss of souls plunges Me.

Most Merciful Jesus, whose very nature it is to have compassion on us and to forgive us, do not look upon our sins but upon our trust which we place in Your infinite goodness. Receive us all into the abode of Your Most Compassionate Heart, and never let us escape from It. We beg this of You by Your love which unites You to the Father and the Holy Spirit.

Eternal Father, turn Your merciful gaze upon all mankind and especially upon poor sinners, all enfolded in the Most Compassionate Heart of Jesus. For the sake of His sorrowful Passion show us Your mercy, that we may praise the omnipotence of Your mercy for ever and ever. Amen.


+ + +

Second Day:
Today bring to Me THE SOULS OF PRIESTS AND RELIGIOUS, and immerse them in My unfathomable mercy. It was they who gave Me strength to endure My bitter Passion. Through them as through channels My mercy flows out upon mankind.

Most Merciful Jesus, from whom comes all that is good, increase Your grace in men and women consecrated to Your service,* that they may perform worthy works of mercy; and that all who see them may glorify the Father of Mercy who is in heaven.

Eternal Father, turn Your merciful gaze upon the company of chosen ones in Your vineyard—upon the souls of priests and religious; and endow them with the strength of Your blessing. For the love of the Heart of Your Son in which they are enfolded, impart to them Your power and light, that they may be able to guide others in the way of salvation and with one voice sing praise to Your boundless mercy for ages without end. Amen.
+ + +
Third Day:
Today bring to Me ALL DEVOUT AND FAITHFUL SOULS, and immerse them in the ocean of My mercy. These souls brought Me consolation on the Way of the Cross. They were that drop of consolation in the midst of an ocean of bitterness.

Most Merciful Jesus, from the treasury of Your mercy, You impart Your graces in great abundance to each and all. Receive us into the abode of Your Most Compassionate Heart and never let us escape from It. We beg this grace of You by that most wonderous love for the heavenly Father with which Your Heart burns so fiercely.

Eternal Father, turn Your merciful gaze upon faithful souls, as upon the inheritance of Your Son. For the sake of His sorrowful Passion, grant them Your blessing and surround them with Your constant protection. Thus may they never fail in love or lose the treasure of the holy faith, but rather, with all the hosts of Angels and Saints, may they glorify Your boundless mercy for endless ages. Amen

+ + +
Fourth Day:
Today bring to Me THOSE WHO DO NOT BELIEVE IN GOD AND THOSE WHO DO NOT YET KNOW ME. I was thinking also of them during My bitter Passion, and their future zeal comforted My Heart. Immerse them in the ocean of My mercy.

Most compassionate Jesus, You are the Light of the whole world. Receive into the abode of Your Most Compassionate Heart the souls of those who do not believe in God and of those who as yet do not know You. Let the rays of Your grace enlighten them that they, too, together with us, may extol Your wonderful mercy; and do not let them escape from the abode which is Your Most Compassionate Heart.

Eternal Father, turn Your merciful gaze upon the souls of those who do not believe in You, and of those who as yet do not know You, but who are enclosed in the Most Compassionate Heart of Jesus. Draw them to the light of the Gospel. These souls do not know what great happiness it is to love You. Grant that they, too, may extol the generosity of Your mercy for endless ages. Amen.

+ + +

Fifth Day:

Today bring to Me THE SOULS OF THOSE WHO HAVE SEPARATED THEMSELVES FROM MY CHURCH, and immerse them in the ocean of My mercy. During My bitter Passion they tore at My Body and Heart, that is, My Church. As they return to unity with the Church, My wounds heal and in this way they alleviate My Passion.

Most Merciful Jesus, Goodness Itself, You do not refuse light to those who seek it of You. Receive into the abode of Your Most Compassionate Heart the souls of those who have separated themselves from Your Church. Draw them by Your light into the unity of the Church, and do not let them escape from the abode of Your Most Compassionate Heart; but bring it about that they, too, come to glorify the generosity of Your mercy.

Eternal Father, turn Your merciful gaze upon the souls of those who have separated themselves from Your Son's Church, who have squandered Your blessings and misused Your graces by obstinately persisting in their errors. Do not look upon their errors, but upon the love of Your own Son and upon His bitter Passion, which He underwent for their sake, since they, too, are enclosed in His Most Compassionate Heart. Bring it about that they also may glorify Your great mercy for endless ages. Amen.

+ + +

Sixth Day:

Today bring to Me THE MEEK AND HUMBLE SOULS AND THE SOULS OF LITTLE CHILDREN, and immerse them in My mercy. These souls most closely resemble My Heart. They strengthened Me during My bitter agony. I saw them as earthly Angels, who will keep vigil at My altars. I pour out upon them whole torrents of grace. Only the humble soul is capable of receiving My grace. I favor humble souls with My confidence.

Most Merciful Jesus, You yourself have said, "Learn from Me for I am meek and humble of heart." Receive into the abode of Your Most Compassionate Heart all meek and humble souls and the souls of little children. These souls send all heaven into ecstasy and they are the heavenly Father's favorites. They are a sweet-smelling bouquet before the throne of God; God Himself takes delight in their fragrance. These souls have a permanent abode in Your Most Compassionate Heart, O Jesus, and they unceasingly sing out a hymn of love and mercy.

Eternal Father, turn Your merciful gaze upon meek souls, upon humble souls, and upon little children who are enfolded in the abode which is the Most Compassionate Heart of Jesus. These souls bear the closest resemblance to Your Son. Their fragrance rises from the earth and reaches Your very throne. Father of mercy and of all goodness, I beg You by the love You bear these souls and by the delight You take in them: Bless the whole world, that all souls together may sing out the praises of Your mercy for endless ages. Amen.

+ + +
Seventh Day:
Today bring to Me THE SOULS WHO ESPECIALLY VENERATE AND GLORIFY MY MERCY, and immerse them in My mercy. These souls sorrowed most over my Passion and entered most deeply into My spirit. They are living images of My Compassionate Heart. These souls will shine with a special brightness in the next life. Not one of them will go into the fire of hell. I shall particularly defend each one of them at the hour of death.

Most Merciful Jesus, whose Heart is Love Itself, receive into the abode of Your Most Compassionate Heart the souls of those who particularly extol and venerate the greatness of Your mercy. These souls are mighty with the very power of God Himself. In the midst of all afflictions and adversities they go forward, confident of Your mercy; and united to You, O Jesus, they carry all mankind on their shoulders. These souls will not be judged severely, but Your mercy will embrace them as they depart from this life.

Eternal Father, turn Your merciful gaze upon the souls who glorify and venerate Your greatest attribute, that of Your fathomless mercy, and who are enclosed in the Most Compassionate Heart of Jesus. These souls are a living Gospel; their hands are full of deeds of mercy, and their hearts, overflowing with joy, sing a canticle of mercy to You, O Most High! I beg You O God:

Show them Your mercy according to the hope and trust they have placed in You. Let there be accomplished in them the promise of Jesus, who said to them that during their life, but especially at the hour of death, the souls who will venerate this fathomless mercy of His, He, Himself, will defend as His glory. Amen.

+ + +

Eighth Day:

Today bring to Me THE SOULS WHO ARE DETAINED IN PURGATORY, and immerse them in the abyss of My mercy. Let the torrents of My Blood cool down their scorching flames. All these souls are greatly loved by Me. They are making retribution to My justice. It is in your power to bring them relief. Draw all the indulgences from the treasury of My Church and offer them on their behalf. Oh, if you only knew the torments they suffer, you would continually offer for them the alms of the spirit and pay off their debt to My justice.

Most Merciful Jesus, You Yourself have said that You desire mercy; so I bring into the abode of Your Most Compassionate Heart the souls in Purgatory, souls who are very dear to You, and yet, who must make retribution to Your justice. May the streams of Blood and Water which gushed forth from Your Heart put out the flames of Purgatory, that there, too, the power of Your mercy may be celebrated.

Eternal Father, turn Your merciful gaze upon the souls suffering in Purgatory, who are enfolded in the Most Compassionate Heart of Jesus. I beg You, by the sorrowful Passion of Jesus Your Son, and by all the bitterness with which His most sacred Soul was flooded: Manifest Your mercy to the souls who are under Your just scrutiny. Look upon them in no other way but only through the Wounds of Jesus, Your dearly beloved Son; for we firmly believe that there is no limit to Your goodness and compassion. Amen.

+ + +
Ninth Day:
Today bring to Me SOULS WHO HAVE BECOME LUKEWARM, and immerse them in the abyss of My mercy. These souls wound My Heart most painfully. My soul suffered the most dreadful loathing in the Garden of Olives because of lukewarm souls. They were the reason I cried out: 'Father, take this cup away from Me, if it be Your will.' For them, the last hope of salvation is to run to My mercy.

Most compassionate Jesus, You are Compassion Itself. I bring lukewarm souls into the abode of Your Most Compassionate Heart. In this fire of Your pure love, let these tepid souls, who, like corpses, filled You with such deep loathing, be once again set aflame. O Most Compassionate Jesus, exercise the omnipotence of Your mercy and draw them into the very ardor of Your love, and bestow upon them the gift of holy love, for nothing is beyond Your power.

Eternal Father, turn Your merciful gaze upon lukewarm souls who are nonetheless enfolded in the Most Compassionate Heart of Jesus. Father of Mercy, I beg You by the bitter Passion of Your Son and by His three-hour agony on the Cross: Let them, too, glorify the abyss of Your mercy. Amen.

Now, when Jesus delivered His Holy Wound Chaplet to Saint Sister Marie Chambon among many other Holy Saints of God's, Jesus God and Holy Spirit with our Most Holy Blessed Virgin Mother Mary delivered a Holy book full of Holy Wound and Precious Holy Blood messages all directly reflecting Gods Holy Word again with some of these the following and I will need to look up some websites on Holy Saint Marie Chambon to post on this subject in this thread;

Jesus requests us to pray for all of the Holy Souls in Purgatory
For the sick and dying immersing their hearts and souls in His Holy Sacred Wounds and Precious Holy Blood -
Love to all of you and your families

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The blessing of Christ to you my friend.........but the truth of God's Word is that
Jesus NEVER EVER asked anyone to pray for anyone in Purgatory simply because there is NO PURGATIORY FOUND IN THE BIBLE!

Shempster said:

A rhetorical question:
What if maybe God intended for the subject to be unclear?
It seems we have 3-5 possible scenarios based on scripture that seem to debunk or defy each other.
Maybe He doesn't want us to know exactly.
Maybe we have to decide for ourselves based on our view of His nature and character.

That would be a real twister, wouldn't it?

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Deut. 29:29...........
“The secret things belong to the Lord our God, but those things which are revealed belong to us and to our children forever, that we may do all the words of this law."

There are some things we are just not to know.

ClementofA said:

Relevance? Besides the fact you've argued the same thing re olam & ad. And olam is rarely not rendered as aion/ios by the Hebrew scholars of the LXX in hundreds of occurrences. And BTW aion/ios appears for olam in the LXX of all the verses:
I have considered the days of old, the years of ancient times. (Psa.77:5)
I have reckoned the days of old,[qedem/6924] The years of the ages.[owlam im] (Psa.77:5)
I considered the days of old, and remembered ancient years.[αἰώνια/166] (Psa.77:5, LXX, Brenton)
Deuteronomy 32:7
"Remember the days of old,[owlam] Consider the years of all generations. Ask your father, and he will inform you, Your elders, and they will tell you.
Remember the days of old,[αἰῶνος/165] consider the years for past ages: ask thy father, and he shall relate to thee, thine elders, and they shall tell thee. (Dt.32:7, LXX, Brenton)
Isaiah 51:9
Awake, awake, put on strength, O arm of the LORD; Awake as in the days of old[owlam-im], the generations of long ago. Was it not You who cut Rahab in pieces, Who pierced the dragon?
Awake, awake, O Jerusalem, and put on the strength of thine arm; awake as in the early time,[αἰῶνος/165] as the ancient generation. (Isa.51:9, LXX, Brenton)

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Irrelevant because none of this addresses my previous post where I posted a shorter list of OT verses which define/describe olam and/or ad as never ending etc. The present list is upgraded. You apparently do not understand what I have been doing and what I am asking. A verse or verses which define/describe olam or ad as eternal/eternity with another adjective, noun or phrase. For example from my list of 36 which you ignored.
In this vs. עולם is equated with. “nothing can be added or taken away from God's acts.” “Age(s),“a finite period, does not equate with “nothing can be added or taken away from God's acts,” “for ever” does.
None of your examples pair olam/ad with a word or phrase which states or implies eternal/eternity as in Ecc 3:14.

Der Alter said:

Irrelevant because none of this addresses my previous post where I posted a shorter list of OT verses which define/describe olam and/or ad as never ending etc. The present list is upgraded. You apparently do not understand what I have been doing and what I am asking. A verse or verses which define/describe olam or ad as eternal/eternity with another adjective, noun or phrase. .

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To use your type of reasoning, in Psa.77:5 olam/aionia is opposite "old[qedem]/ancient=744/Gk. Old & ancient are not eternal, but finite. Therefore Olam/aionia are defined/described as finite.

Similarly in Deut.32:7 olam/aion is opposite generations of generations past which are finite. So olam/aion are finite.

Likewise in Isa.51:9 olam is opposite "of old" which is finite. And aion is opposite the "early time"/"days" past, which is finite.



I have considered the days of old, the years of ancient times. (Psa.77:5)
I have reckoned the days of old,[qedem/6924] The years of the ages.[owlam im] (Psa.77:5)
I considered the days of old, and remembered ancient years.[αἰώνια/166] (Psa.77:5, LXX, Brenton)

Deuteronomy 32:7
"Remember the days of old,[owlam] Consider the years of all generations. Ask your father, and he will inform you, Your elders, and they will tell you.
Remember the days of old,[αἰῶνος/165] consider the years for past ages: ask thy father, and he shall relate to thee, thine elders, and they shall tell thee. (Dt.32:7, LXX, Brenton)

Isaiah 51:9
Awake, awake, put on strength, O arm of the LORD; Awake as in the days of old,[qedem] the generations of long ago[owlam-im]. Was it not You who cut Rahab in pieces, Who pierced the dragon?
Awake, awake, O Jerusalem, and put on the strength of thine arm; awake as in the early time, as the ancient[αἰῶνος/165] generation. (Isa.51:9, LXX, Brenton)

ἐξεγείρου ἐξεγείρου Ιερουσαλημ καὶ ἔνδυσαι τὴν ἰσχὺν τοῦ βραχίονός σου ἐξεγείρου ὡς ἐν ἀρχῇ ἡμέρας ὡς γενεὰαἰῶνος οὐ σὺ εἶ

"...as in [the] beginning of days[2250], as a generation of an eon[165]" (Isa.51:9b, The Apostolic Bible Polygot: Greek English Intelinear [of the LXX], p.968).

Der Alter said:

Thirty six [36] OT verses which define/describe the word “olam.”

Exodus 3:15
(15) And God said moreover unto Moses, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, The LORD God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you: this is my name for ever,[עולם/olam] and this is my memorial unto all generations.​

In this vs. “olam” is paired with “unto all generations.” “Age(s),”a finite period, does not equate to “unto all generations,”“for ever” does.

​

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A finite eon, age or ages is perfectly harmonious with generations.

Your translation misrepresents the Hebrew. There's no "all" in the Hebrew text, not that it would matter, since even that would not say 'throughout all' generations. Even yours says only "unto", not 'throughout'.

Young's Literal Translation
this is My name -- to the age, and this My memorial, to generation -- generation.

This is My name for the eon, and this the remembrance of Me for generation after generation. (CLV)

Contrary to your opinion, aion is defined (as lexicons agree), as a finite duration, age, eon, epoch. And Scripture proves it:

"Consider the N. T. use of aion. Does “eternity” make any sense in the following passages? To make my point unmistakable, I have translated the Greek word aion with the English word “eternity.”

¨ What will be the sign…of the end of the eternity (Mt. 24:3)?

¨ I am with you…to the end of the eternity (Mt. 28:20).

¨ The sons of this eternity are more shrewd (Lu. 16:8).

¨ The sons of this eternity marry (Lu. 20:34).

¨ Worthy to attain that eternity (Lu. 20:35).

¨ Since the eternity began (Jn. 9:32; Ac. 3:21).

¨ Conformed to this eternity (Ro. 12:2).

¨ Mystery kept secret since the eternity began but now made manifest (Ro. 16:25-26).

¨ Where is the disputer of this eternity (1Co. 1:20)?

¨ Wisdom of this eternity, nor of the rulers of this eternity…ordained before the eternities…which none of the rulers of this eternity…(1Co. 2:6-8)

¨ Wise in this eternity (1Co. 3:18).

¨ Upon whom the ends of the eternities have come.
(1Co. 10:11)

¨ God of this eternity has blinded (2Co. 4:4).

¨ Deliver us from this present evil eternity (Ga. 1:4).

¨ Not only in this eternity but also in that which is to come (Ep. 1:21).

¨ Walked according to the eternity of this world (Ep. 2:2).

¨ In the eternities to come (Ep. 2:7).

¨ From the beginnings of the eternities (Ep. 3:9).

¨ Hidden from eternities…but now…revealed (Col. 1:26).

¨ Loved this present eternity (2Ti. 4:10).

¨ Receive him for eternity (Ph.1:15). Does this mean forever or only until Onesimus dies?

¨ Powers of the eternity to come (He. 6:5).

¨ At the end of the eternities (He. 9:26).

¨ We understand the eternities have been prepared by a saying of God (He. 11:3).

How can we say…

¨ “Before eternity” or “eternity began”? Eternity has no beginning (Jn. 9:32; Ac. 3:21; 1Co. 2:7; Ep. 3:9).

¨ “Present eternity,” “eternity to come,” and “end of eternity?” Eternity transcends time. Only God is eternal (Mt. 24:3; 28:20; 1Co. 10:11; 2Ti. 4:10; He. 6:5; 9:26).

¨ “This eternity,” “that eternity,” or “eternities”? There is only one eternity (Lu. 16:8; 20:34-35; Ro. 12:2; 1Co. 1:20; 2:6-8; 3:18; 10:11; 2Co. 4:4; Ga. 1:4; Ep. 1:21; 2:2, 7; 3:9; Col. 1:26; 2Ti. 4:10; He. 11:3).

¨ “Eternal secret” if the secret is revealed? (Ro. 16:25-26; Col. 1:26). It is no longer a “secret” at that point."

Eternity in the Bible by Gerry Beauchemin – Hope Beyond Hell

ClementofA said:

A finite eon, age or ages is perfectly harmonious with generations.
Your translation misrepresents the Hebrew. There's no "all" in the Hebrew text, not that it would matter, since even that would not say 'throughout all' generations. Even yours says only "unto", not 'throughout'.
Young's Literal Translation
this is My name -- to the age, and this My memorial, to generation -- generation.
This is My name for the eon, and this the remembrance of Me for generation after generation. (CLV)
Contrary to your opinion, aion is defined (as lexicons agree), as a finite duration, age, eon, epoch. And Scripture proves it:
"Consider the N. T. use of aion. Does “eternity” make any sense in the following passages? To make my point unmistakable, I have translated the Greek word aion with the English word “eternity.”
¨ What will be the sign…of the end of the eternity (Mt. 24:3)?
¨ I am with you…to the end of the eternity (Mt. 28:20).
¨ The sons of this eternity are more shrewd (Lu. 16:8).
¨ The sons of this eternity marry (Lu. 20:34).
¨ Worthy to attain that eternity (Lu. 20:35).
¨ Since the eternity began (Jn. 9:32; Ac. 3:21).
¨ Conformed to this eternity (Ro. 12:2).
¨ Mystery kept secret since the eternity began but now made manifest (Ro. 16:25-26).
¨ Where is the disputer of this eternity (1Co. 1:20)?
¨ Wisdom of this eternity, nor of the rulers of this eternity…ordained before the eternities…which none of the rulers of this eternity…(1Co. 2:6-8)
¨ Wise in this eternity (1Co. 3:18).
¨ Upon whom the ends of the eternities have come.
(1Co. 10:11)
¨ God of this eternity has blinded (2Co. 4:4).
¨ Deliver us from this present evil eternity (Ga. 1:4).
¨ Not only in this eternity but also in that which is to come (Ep. 1:21).
¨ Walked according to the eternity of this world (Ep. 2:2).
¨ In the eternities to come (Ep. 2:7).
¨ From the beginnings of the eternities (Ep. 3:9).
¨ Hidden from eternities…but now…revealed (Col. 1:26).
¨ Loved this present eternity (2Ti. 4:10).
¨ Receive him for eternity (Ph.1:15). Does this mean forever or only until Onesimus dies?
¨ Powers of the eternity to come (He. 6:5).
¨ At the end of the eternities (He. 9:26).
¨ We understand the eternities have been prepared by a saying of God (He. 11:3).
How can we say…
¨ “Before eternity” or “eternity began”? Eternity has no beginning (Jn. 9:32; Ac. 3:21; 1Co. 2:7; Ep. 3:9).
¨ “Present eternity,” “eternity to come,” and “end of eternity?” Eternity transcends time. Only God is eternal (Mt. 24:3; 28:20; 1Co. 10:11; 2Ti. 4:10; He. 6:5; 9:26).
¨ “This eternity,” “that eternity,” or “eternities”? There is only one eternity (Lu. 16:8; 20:34-35; Ro. 12:2; 1Co. 1:20; 2:6-8; 3:18; 10:11; 2Co. 4:4; Ga. 1:4; Ep. 1:21; 2:2, 7; 3:9; Col. 1:26; 2Ti. 4:10; He. 11:3).
¨ “Eternal secret” if the secret is revealed? (Ro. 16:25-26; Col. 1:26). It is no longer a “secret” at that point."

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Irrelevant times 100. Do any of those verses which you have listed ever describe/define aion/aionios as less than eternal/eternity etc. with others words or phrases as I have done with the 21 verses I quoted? You keep posting these specious arguments over and over and over while you ignore the fact that Paul used ἀΐ́διος/aidios and αἰώνιος/aionios interchangeably, without explanation or clarification.
In Rom 1:20 Paul refers to God’s power and Godhead as “aidios.” “Aidios” indisputably means eternal, everlasting, unending etc. In Rom 16:26 Paul refers to God as “aionios,” therefore Paul considers “aidios” and “aionios” to be synonymous.

. . .Link to Beauchamin who has neither stated nor demonstrated any expertise in the Biblical languages, omitted and always will be ...

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Anybody can find a book compiled or thrown together by some unknown person which will supposedly prove almost anything. If you wish for your posts to be support anything you should quote only accredited scholars not amateurs!

Der Alter said:

Irrelevant times 100. Do any of those verses which you have listed ever describe/define aion/aionios as less than eternal/eternity etc. with others words or phrases as I have done with the 21 verses I quoted?

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Yes, they do. An aion that is described as ending is not endless. In spite of all your claims to the contrary, that aion/ios is never described or defined as being an age, time, or epoch of finite duration. And contrary to 2000 years of lexicons, church fathers, commentaries & dictionaries. Does even one support your view?

See also post 1614. Still unanswered.

Der Alter said:

You keep posting these specious arguments over and over and over while you ignore the fact that Paul used ἀΐ́διος/aidios and αἰώνιος/aionios

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Der Alter said:

​

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Der Alter said:

Anybody can find a book compiled or thrown together by some unknown person which will supposedly prove almost anything. If you wish for your posts to be support anything you should quote only accredited scholars not amateurs!

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Isn't the Bible up to your standards? The entire quote was almost entirely Scripture quotations. It's not my problem that you refuse to deal with the evidence of what God's Word says.

Scholar's Corner: The Center for Bible studies in Christian Universalism

Someone posted, a while back - seems like an eon ago, that the word(s) used for eternity is reflective of the subject that it is referencing. If the subject is finite then it will reflect that but if the subject is infinite then that will also be reflected. So when the word(s) used for eternity are speaking about God for instance they do carry the meaning of eternity but when they are used for a mortal they may not.

I thought this was an interesting insight and I wish that could be reposted.

Dig4truth said:

Someone posted, a while back - seems like an eon ago, that the word(s) used for eternity is reflective of the subject that it is referencing. If the subject is finite then it will reflect that but if the subject is infinite then that will also be reflected. So when the word(s) used for eternity are speaking about God for instance they do carry the meaning of eternity but when they are used for a mortal they may not.

I thought this was an interesting insight and I wish that could be reposted.

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Perhaps one of these comments found at the link below?

"Aion, transliterated aeon, is a period of longer or shorter duration, having a beginning and an end, and complete in itself. Aristotle (peri ouravou, i. 9, 15) said, “The period which includes the whole time of one’s life is called the aeon of each one.” Hence, it often means the life of a man, as in Homer, where one’s life (aion) is said to leave him or to consume away (Il v.685; Od v.160). It is not, however, limited to human life. It signifies any period in the course of the millennium, the mythological period before the beginnings of history. The word has not “a stationary and mechanical value” (De Quincey). It does not mean a period of a fixed length for all cases. There are as many aeons as entities, the respective durations of which are fixed by the normal conditions of the several entities. There is one aeon of a human life, another of the life of a nation, another of a crow’s life, another of an oak’s life. The length of the aeon depends on the subject to which it is attached.…The adjective aionious in like manner carries the idea of time. Neither the noun nor the adjective, in themselves, carry the sense of endless or everlasting. They may acquire that sense by their connotation….Aionios means “enduring through” or “pertaining to a period of time.” Both the noun and the adjective are applied to limited periods….Out of the 150 instances in LXX, [Greek Old Testament] four-fifths imply limited duration. For a few instances, see Gen. xlviii. 4; Num. x. 8; xv. 15; Prov. xxii. 28; Jonah ii.6; Hab. iii. 6; Isa lxi. 17.4"

"...the duration of aionios is determined by the subject to which it refers. For example, when aionios referred to the duration of Jonah’s entrapment in the fish, it was limited to three days. To a slave, aionios referred to his life span. To the Aaronic priesthood, it referred to the generation preceding the Melchizedek priesthood. To Solomon’s temple, it referred to 400 years. To God it encompasses and transcends time altogether."

"Thus, the word cannot have a set value. It is a relative term and its duration depends upon that with which it is associated. It is similar to what “tall” is to height. The size of a tall building can be 300 feet, a tall man six feet, and a tall dog three feet. Black Beauty was a great horse, Abraham Lincoln a great man, and Yahweh the GREAT God. Though God is called “great,” the word “great” is neither eternal nor divine. The horse is still a horse. An adjective relates to the noun it modifies. In relation to God, “great” becomes GREAT only because of who and what God is. This silences the contention that aion must always mean forever because it modifies God. God is described as the God of Israel and the God of Abraham. This does not mean He is not the God of Gentiles, or the God of you and me. Though He is called the God of the “ages,” He nonetheless remains the God who transcends the ages."

Eternity in the Bible by Gerry Beauchemin – Hope Beyond Hell

ClementofA said:

Perhaps one of these comments found at the link below?

"Aion, transliterated aeon, is a period of longer or shorter duration, having a beginning and an end, and complete in itself. Aristotle (peri ouravou, i. 9, 15) said, “The period which includes the whole time of one’s life is called the aeon of each one.” Hence, it often means the life of a man, as in Homer, where one’s life (aion) is said to leave him or to consume away (Il v.685; Od v.160). It is not, however, limited to human life. It signifies any period in the course of the millennium, the mythological period before the beginnings of history. The word has not “a stationary and mechanical value” (De Quincey). It does not mean a period of a fixed length for all cases. There are as many aeons as entities, the respective durations of which are fixed by the normal conditions of the several entities. There is one aeon of a human life, another of the life of a nation, another of a crow’s life, another of an oak’s life. The length of the aeon depends on the subject to which it is attached.…The adjective aionious in like manner carries the idea of time. Neither the noun nor the adjective, in themselves, carry the sense of endless or everlasting. They may acquire that sense by their connotation….Aionios means “enduring through” or “pertaining to a period of time.” Both the noun and the adjective are applied to limited periods….Out of the 150 instances in LXX, [Greek Old Testament] four-fifths imply limited duration. For a few instances, see Gen. xlviii. 4; Num. x. 8; xv. 15; Prov. xxii. 28; Jonah ii.6; Hab. iii. 6; Isa lxi. 17.4"

"...the duration of aionios is determined by the subject to which it refers. For example, when aionios referred to the duration of Jonah’s entrapment in the fish, it was limited to three days. To a slave, aionios referred to his life span. To the Aaronic priesthood, it referred to the generation preceding the Melchizedek priesthood. To Solomon’s temple, it referred to 400 years. To God it encompasses and transcends time altogether."

"Thus, the word cannot have a set value. It is a relative term and its duration depends upon that with which it is associated. It is similar to what “tall” is to height. The size of a tall building can be 300 feet, a tall man six feet, and a tall dog three feet. Black Beauty was a great horse, Abraham Lincoln a great man, and Yahweh the GREAT God. Though God is called “great,” the word “great” is neither eternal nor divine. The horse is still a horse. An adjective relates to the noun it modifies. In relation to God, “great” becomes GREAT only because of who and what God is. This silences the contention that aion must always mean forever because it modifies God. God is described as the God of Israel and the God of Abraham. This does not mean He is not the God of Gentiles, or the God of you and me. Though He is called the God of the “ages,” He nonetheless remains the God who transcends the ages."

Eternity in the Bible by Gerry Beauchemin – Hope Beyond Hell

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Thanks for posting this. That is the viewpoint I was thinking about.