Old Covenant defined - vs - NEW Covenant

BobRyan · Nov 25, 2017

1stcenturylady said:
You said:

Some have attempted to spin-doctor the text of Jer 31:31-33 away from its obvious meaning -- and yet we have these irrefutable facts.

1. No text says "not the LAW that I gave at Sinai"
2. No text says that Jeremiah did not know the TEN Commandments were in the LAW of God
3. No scholars claim that the LAW of God known to Jeremiah did not include God's Ten Commandments

But you are wrong.

This should be good.

1stcenturylady said:
The law given at Mt. Sinai was the Ten Commandments, right?

Certainly it included the TEN - as a basic reading of the book of Exodus will show.

It was called the Covenant, Ex. 34:28.

But not the "Old Covenant" . Details matter.

Ex. 34:23-27
23 “Three times in the year all your men shall appear before the Lord, the Lord God of Israel. 24 For I will cast out the nations before you and enlarge your borders; neither will any man covet your land when you go up to appear before the Lord your God three times in the year.
25 “You shall not offer the blood of My sacrifice with leaven, nor shall the sacrifice of the Feast of the Passover be left until morning.
26 “The first of the firstfruits of your land you shall bring to the house of the Lord your God. You shall not boil a young goat in its mother’s milk.”
27 Then the Lord said to Moses, “Write these words, for according to the tenor of these words I have made a covenant with you and with Israel.”

The Old Covenant is a term unique to the NEW Testament and is never used in the Old Testament text. But it was an “agreement” made with the nation of Israel – not with an individual.

The Old Covenant a type of the arrangement between God and lost humanity where the LAW of God condemns all mankind as sinners – see Romans 3:19-21

Rom 3
19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. 20 Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

From; What was the Old Covenant?

“In the Old Covenant, the Israelites were required to obey God and keep the Law, and in return He protected and blessed them”

(Deuteronomy 30:15–18;

15 “See, I have set before you today life and good, death and evil, 16 in that I command you today to love the Lord your God, to walk in His ways, and to keep His commandments, His statutes, and His judgments, that you may live and multiply; and the Lord your God will bless you in the land which you go to possess. 17 But if your heart turns away so that you do not hear, and are drawn away, and worship other gods and serve them, 18 I announce to you today that you shall surely perish; you shall not prolong your days in the land which you cross over the Jordan to go in and possess.

1 Samuel 12:14–15).
14 If you fear the Lord and serve Him and obey His voice, and do not rebel against the commandment of the Lord, then both you and the king who reigns over you will continue following the Lord your God. 15 However, if you do not obey the voice of the Lord, but rebel against the commandment of the Lord, then the hand of the Lord will be against you, as it was against your fathers.

The national covenant was broken by Israel -

“The Old Covenant established our guilt before God and our need for a Savior. The Old Covenant was never intended to save us;”

The National Covenant was written by Moses at God’s Command and is made with Israel as a nation

The Covenant was written by the hand of God 40 days later – The Ten Commandments are moral law for all mankind. But as long as they are only external on tablets of stone and not on the tablets of the human heart – they condemn all mankind as sinners. Rom 3:19-20

Ex. 34:

23 “Three times in the year all your men shall appear before the Lord, the Lord God of Israel. 24 For I will cast out the nations before you and enlarge your borders; neither will any man covet your land when you go up to appear before the Lord your God three times in the year.
25 “You shall not offer the blood of My sacrifice with leaven, nor shall the sacrifice of the Feast of the Passover be left until morning.
26 “The first of the firstfruits of your land you shall bring to the house of the Lord your God. You shall not boil a young goat in its mother’s milk.”
27 Then the Lord said to Moses, “Write these words, for according to the tenor of these words I have made a covenant with you and with Israel.”

Forty days later – we have God writing the Ten Commandments

28 So he was there with the Lord forty days and forty nights; he neither ate bread nor drank water. And He (God) wrote on the tablets the words of the covenant, the Ten Commandments.

A FEW examples of Commands in both the Old Covenant and the New Covenant – the moral law of God

Deut 6:5 "Love God with all your heart"
Lev 19:18 "Love your neighbor as yourself"
Ex 20:7 "Do not take God's name in vain"
Ex 20:12 "Honor your parents"

=======================================================

Galatians 4:21-31 talks of two Covenants representing the two sons of Abraham. The Ten Commandments Covenant was called Ishmael.

No text says "The Ten Commandments were called Ishmael" not even Gal 4 says it.

No text says "The Ten Commandments was of the bondservant"
No text says "The Ten Commandments are not the law of God in the New Covenant of Jeremiah 31:31-33,"

1. No text says "not the LAW that I gave at Sinai"
2. No text says that Jeremiah did not know the TEN Commandments were in the LAW of God
3. No scholars claim that the LAW of God known to Jeremiah did not include God's Ten Commandments

BobRyan · Nov 25, 2017

By Contrast the NEW Covenant is the ONE Gospel of Gal 1;6-9 in both OT and NT

Heb 8
1. Now the main point in what has been said is this: we have such a high priest, who has taken His seat at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens, 2 a minister in the sanctuary and in the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, not man.

Christ is our High Priest in heaven - in the heavenly sanctuary - applying the benefits of his shed blood - to each case... our mediator, our high priest.

3 For every high priest is appointed to offer both gifts and sacrifices; so it is necessary that this high priest also have something to offer. 4 Now if He were on earth, He would not be a priest at all, since there are those who offer the gifts according to the Law; 5 who serve a copy and shadow of the heavenly things, just as Moses was warned by God when he was about to erect the tabernacle; for, “See,” He says, “that you make all things according to the pattern which was shown you on the mountain.”

The earthly sanctuary was a tiny miniature copy of the great heavenly sanctuary - both have two main areas - the daily one where God is ... and the Most Holy Place for the day of Atonement where God also is. "God is in His Holy Temple - let all the Earth keep silence".

This is also where we find that CHRIST is the one giving the Commandments at SINAI

6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, by as much as He is also the mediator of a better covenant, which has been enacted on better promises.
A New Covenant

7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion sought for a second. 8 For finding fault with them, He says,

“Behold, days are coming, says the Lord,
When I will effect a new covenant
With the house of Israel and with the house of Judah;
9 Not like the covenant which I made with their fathers
On the day when I took them by the hand
To lead them out of the land of Egypt;
For they did not continue in My covenant,
And I did not care for them, says the Lord.
10 “For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel
After those days, says the Lord:
I will put My laws into their minds,
And I will write them on their hearts.
And I will be their God,
And they shall be My people.

BobRyan · Nov 25, 2017

NEW Covenant:

Heb 8:

7For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion sought for a second.

8For finding fault with them, He says,
“BEHOLD, DAYS ARE COMING, SAYS THE LORD,
WHEN I WILL EFFECT A NEW COVENANT
WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND WITH THE HOUSE OF JUDAH;
...
10 “FOR THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL
AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD:
I WILL PUT MY LAWS INTO THEIR MINDS,
AND I WILL WRITE THEM ON THEIR HEARTS.
AND I WILL BE THEIR GOD,
AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE.

11 “AND THEY SHALL NOT TEACH EVERYONE HIS FELLOW CITIZEN,
AND EVERYONE HIS BROTHER, SAYING, ‘KNOW THE LORD,’
FOR ALL WILL KNOW ME,
FROM THE LEAST TO THE GREATEST OF THEM.

12 “FOR I WILL BE MERCIFUL TO THEIR INIQUITIES,
AND I WILL REMEMBER THEIR SINS NO MORE.”

These laws are "Written on the heart and mind" (Heb 8:10) according to the Gospel New Covenant first found in

Deut 6:6, Ps 37:31, Ezek 36:26-27, Deut 30:6, Jer 31:31-33...

Jer 31:
33 ""But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days,'' declares the LORD, "" I will put My law within them and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.
34 ""They will not teach again, each man his neighbor and each man his brother, saying, "Know the LORD,' for they will all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them,'' declares the LORD, ""for I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.''

Ps 37
Depart from evil and do good,
So you will abide forever.
28 For the Lord loves justice
And does not forsake His godly ones;
They are preserved forever,
But the descendants of the wicked will be cut off.
29 The righteous will inherit the land
And dwell in it forever.
30 The mouth of the righteous utters wisdom,
And his tongue speaks justice.
31 The law of his God is in his heart;
His steps do not slip.

Ezek 36
26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

Ps 119

9 How can a young man cleanse his way?
By taking heed according to Your word.
10 With my whole heart I have sought You;
Oh, let me not wander from Your commandments!
11 Your word I have hidden in my heart,
That I might not sin against You.

Deut 6:6
4 “Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one! 5 You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your strength.

6 “And these words which I command you today shall be in your heart. 7 You shall teach them diligently to your children, and shall talk of them when you sit in your house, when you walk by the way, when you lie down, and when you rise up. 8 You shall bind them as a sign on your hand, and they shall be as frontlets between your eyes. 9 You shall write them on the doorposts of your house and on your gates.

Ps 40:8
I delight to do Your will, O my God,
And Your law is within my heart.”

Is 51:7
“Listen to Me, you who know righteousness,
You people in whose heart is My law:
Do not fear the reproach of men,
Nor be afraid of their insults.

Deut 30
4 If any of thine be driven out unto the outmost parts of heaven, from thence will the Lord thy God gather thee, and from thence will he fetch thee:
5 And the Lord thy God will bring thee into the land which thy fathers possessed, and thou shalt possess it; and he will do thee good, and multiply thee above thy fathers.
6 And the Lord thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the Lord thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.

Prov 7
2 Keep my commandments, and live; and my law as the apple of thine eye.
3 Bind them upon thy fingers, write them upon the table of thine heart.

Heb 10:
15 And the Holy Spirit also testifies to us; for after saying,
16 "" THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THEM AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD: I WILL PUT MY LAWS UPON THEIR HEART, AND ON THEIR MIND I WILL WRITE THEM,'' He then says,
17 "" AND THEIR SINS AND THEIR LAWLESS DEEDS I WILL REMEMBER NO MORE.''

Here we have the New Covenant of the NT - comprised of OT promises.

And the OT promise - New Covenant Promise - to write God's Law on the heart and cause them to walk in His ways - meant a NEW HEART - as God's Word clearly shows.

Ezekiel 36
26 ""Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.
27 ""I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances.
28 ""You will live in the land that I gave to your forefathers; so you will be My people, and I will be your God.

Doug Melven · Nov 25, 2017

BobRyan said:
This should be good.

This will be good.

BobRyan said:
Certainly it included the TEN - as a basic reading of the book of Exodus will show.

Yes it did.

BobRyan said:
But not the "Old Covenant" . Details matter.

There is only one place where you will find "old"and "covenant" in the same verse. And not as "old covenant"
Hebrews 8:13

BobRyan said:
The Old Covenant is a term unique to the NEW Testament and is never used in the Old Testament text. But it was an “agreement” made with the nation of Israel – not with an individual.

The Old Covenant a type of the arrangement between God and lost humanity where the LAW of God condemns all mankind as sinners – see Romans 3:19-21

Rom 3
19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. 20 Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

The agreement made with the nation of Israel is the same as was given at Sinai. The 10 Commandments give knowledge of sin.

BobRyan said:
“In the Old Covenant, the Israelites were required to obey God and keep the Law, and in return He protected and blessed them”

(Deuteronomy 30:15–18;

15 “See, I have set before you today life and good, death and evil, 16 in that I command you today to love the Lord your God, to walk in His ways, and to keep His commandments, His statutes, and His judgments, that you may live and multiply; and the Lord your God will bless you in the land which you go to possess. 17 But if your heart turns away so that you do not hear, and are drawn away, and worship other gods and serve them, 18 I announce to you today that you shall surely perish; you shall not prolong your days in the land which you cross over the Jordan to go in and possess.

1 Samuel 12:14–15).
14 If you fear the Lord and serve Him and obey His voice, and do not rebel against the commandment of the Lord, then both you and the king who reigns over you will continue following the Lord your God. 15 However, if you do not obey the voice of the Lord, but rebel against the commandment of the Lord, then the hand of the Lord will be against you, as it was against your fathers.

And if they didn't obey they died.

BobRyan said:
“The Old Covenant established our guilt before God and our need for a Savior. The Old Covenant was never intended to save us;”

Agreed!!!!!!

BobRyan said:
The National Covenant was written by Moses at God’s Command and is made with Israel as a nation

The Covenant was written by the hand of God 40 days later – The Ten Commandments are moral law for all mankind. But as long as they are only external on tablets of stone and not on the tablets of the human heart – they condemn all mankind as sinners. Rom 3:19-20

They would condemn us if they were put on our heart to, being put on the heart would not change the fact that they would still give knowledge of sin.

BobRyan said:
A FEW examples of Commands in both the Old Covenant and the New Covenant – the moral law of God

Deut 6:5 "Love God with all your heart"
Lev 19:18 "Love your neighbor as yourself"
Ex 20:7 "Do not take God's name in vain"
Ex 20:12 "Honor your parents"

Which nobody can keep.

BobRyan said:
No text says "The Ten Commandments were called Ishmael" not even Gal 4 says it.

No text says "The Ten Commandments was of the bondservant"
No text says "The Ten Commandments are not the law of God in the New Covenant of Jeremiah 31:31-33,"

Let's see what Galatians 4:21-31 actually says.
4:21 Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?
4:22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.
4:23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.
4:24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
4:25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
4:26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
4:27 For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.
4:28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.
4:29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.
4:30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.
4:31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.
Ishmael was of the bondmaid, Isaac was by promise.
The two women are the two covenants. Agar is equivalent to Jerusalem which is in bondage with her children.
The freewoman, that would be Sarah which corresponds to Jerusalem which is above, not here on earth.
So we are just like Isaac, children of promise.
We should do as the Scripture says, "Cast out the bondwoman and her son".

New thread so I will answer these easily refutable statements again.

BobRyan said:
1. No text says "not the LAW that I gave at Sinai"

There was only one Covenant given when God brought them out of Egypt. The Covenant that had the 10 Commandments in it. It was given at Sinai. And as we saw in Galatians 4 it genders to bondage.

BobRyan said:
2. No text says that Jeremiah did not know the TEN Commandments were in the LAW of God

Jeremiah absolutely knew that the 10 Commandments that nobody was able to keep were in that Covenant.

BobRyan said:
3. No scholars claim that the LAW of God known to Jeremiah did not include God's Ten Commandments

I really don't give heed to someone just because they have some letters after there name. Those fallible men received those letters from fallible men.

1stcenturylady · Nov 25, 2017

BobRyan said:
This should be good.

Certainly it included the TEN - as a basic reading of the book of Exodus will show.

But not the "Old Covenant" . Details matter.

Ex. 34:23-27
23 “Three times in the year all your men shall appear before the Lord, the Lord God of Israel. 24 For I will cast out the nations before you and enlarge your borders; neither will any man covet your land when you go up to appear before the Lord your God three times in the year.
25 “You shall not offer the blood of My sacrifice with leaven, nor shall the sacrifice of the Feast of the Passover be left until morning.
26 “The first of the firstfruits of your land you shall bring to the house of the Lord your God. You shall not boil a young goat in its mother’s milk.”
27 Then the Lord said to Moses, “Write these words, for according to the tenor of these words I have made a covenant with you and with Israel.”

The Old Covenant is a term unique to the NEW Testament and is never used in the Old Testament text. But it was an “agreement” made with the nation of Israel – not with an individual.

The Old Covenant a type of the arrangement between God and lost humanity where the LAW of God condemns all mankind as sinners – see Romans 3:19-21

Rom 3
19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. 20 Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

From; What was the Old Covenant?

“In the Old Covenant, the Israelites were required to obey God and keep the Law, and in return He protected and blessed them”

(Deuteronomy 30:15–18;

15 “See, I have set before you today life and good, death and evil, 16 in that I command you today to love the Lord your God, to walk in His ways, and to keep His commandments, His statutes, and His judgments, that you may live and multiply; and the Lord your God will bless you in the land which you go to possess. 17 But if your heart turns away so that you do not hear, and are drawn away, and worship other gods and serve them, 18 I announce to you today that you shall surely perish; you shall not prolong your days in the land which you cross over the Jordan to go in and possess.

1 Samuel 12:14–15).
14 If you fear the Lord and serve Him and obey His voice, and do not rebel against the commandment of the Lord, then both you and the king who reigns over you will continue following the Lord your God. 15 However, if you do not obey the voice of the Lord, but rebel against the commandment of the Lord, then the hand of the Lord will be against you, as it was against your fathers.

The national covenant was broken by Israel -

“The Old Covenant established our guilt before God and our need for a Savior. The Old Covenant was never intended to save us;”

The National Covenant was written by Moses at God’s Command and is made with Israel as a nation

The Covenant was written by the hand of God 40 days later – The Ten Commandments are moral law for all mankind. But as long as they are only external on tablets of stone and not on the tablets of the human heart – they condemn all mankind as sinners. Rom 3:19-20

Ex. 34:

23 “Three times in the year all your men shall appear before the Lord, the Lord God of Israel. 24 For I will cast out the nations before you and enlarge your borders; neither will any man covet your land when you go up to appear before the Lord your God three times in the year.
25 “You shall not offer the blood of My sacrifice with leaven, nor shall the sacrifice of the Feast of the Passover be left until morning.
26 “The first of the firstfruits of your land you shall bring to the house of the Lord your God. You shall not boil a young goat in its mother’s milk.”
27 Then the Lord said to Moses, “Write these words, for according to the tenor of these words I have made a covenant with you and with Israel.”

Forty days later – we have God writing the Ten Commandments

28 So he was there with the Lord forty days and forty nights; he neither ate bread nor drank water. And He (God) wrote on the tablets the words of the covenant, the Ten Commandments.

A FEW examples of Commands in both the Old Covenant and the New Covenant – the moral law of God

Deut 6:5 "Love God with all your heart"
Lev 19:18 "Love your neighbor as yourself"
Ex 20:7 "Do not take God's name in vain"
Ex 20:12 "Honor your parents"

=======================================================

No text says "The Ten Commandments were called Ishmael" not even Gal 4 says it.

No text says "The Ten Commandments was of the bondservant"
No text says "The Ten Commandments are not the law of God in the New Covenant of Jeremiah 31:31-33,"

1. No text says "not the LAW that I gave at Sinai"
2. No text says that Jeremiah did not know the TEN Commandments were in the LAW of God
3. No scholars claim that the LAW of God known to Jeremiah did not include God's Ten Commandments

What you don't understand is what ARE the laws of the New Covenant. If you do know, what are they?

YouAreAwesome · Nov 26, 2017

1. Define covenant

In the ancient world a covenant is when two parties would write and sign a legally binding contract. Then over the course of the covenant agreement, the two parties would add a canon -- the history of how the two parties walked out their covenant including poetry, music, art and culture formed during the time -- a canon is a body of literature.

2. How many major covenants are recorded in the Bible?

There are five major covenants. Noah, Abraham, Moses, David and Jesus (Note the canon for the new covenant is the entire New Testament).

Noahic covenant (Genesis 1-11)
Abrahamic covenant (Genesis 12-50)
Law/Old-Covenant: Mosaic covenant Part 1 (Exodus 1-45; Numbers; Leviticus) -- this was a kinship covenant
Law/Old-Covenant: Mosaic covenant Part 2 (Deuteronomy) -- later it was changed to a vassal covenant
Davidic Covenant (1&2 Samuel; 1&2 Kings; 1&2 Chronicles; Song of Songs; Proverbs; Ecclesiastes; Some of the Psalms)
New Covenant: Jesus' covenant (The entire New Testament)

3. What is meant by "the Old Covenant"?

Usually we use the language "Old Covenant" to refer to the Mosaic Covenant. The Mosaic Covenant was unlike all other covenants. It was not what God intended for the Israelite's. God intended a grant covenant where every person would be a priest and a king, a holy nation, where everyone has direct access to God (see Exodus 19:3-6). The people accepted. Then in verses 9-13 God gave Moses instructions for the covenant ceremony. In verses 16-17 God comes down to meet the people. But when the people heard God speaking they got scared (read Deuteronomy 5 as it describes this interaction in more depth). Because of their slave-minded fear, they rejected direct relationship with God and instead asked for rules to follow (see Exodus 19:20-25). The covenant then shifted from the grant covenant previously offered, to a kinship covenant. The Old Covenant became a yoke around their necks (Acts of the Apostles 15:10).

4. What is meant by "the New Covenant"?

Hebrews 8:6 says

But now Jesus, our High Priest, has been given a ministry that is far superior to the old priesthood, for he is the one who mediates for us a far better covenant with God, based on better promises.

The following explains the New Covenant.

Jesus' birth fulfilled the Abrahamic Covenant.
The death of Jesus created the New Covenant.
The New Covenant is between Father and Son.
Jesus' ascension and enthronement in heaven fulfill the Davidic kingdom promises.
The destruction in AD 70 removed the Old Covenant permanently and fulfilled Hebrews 8:13.
Between the cross and AD 70 existed a forty-year covenant transition for the Church.
During the transition period, the Old Covenant and the New Covenant co-existed.
The end of the age and the last days were first century references to the last days of the Old Covenant and the end of the Old Covenant age.
No application of the Mosaic kinship/vassal covenants remains; the feasts, Sabbaths, civil laws, ceremonial laws, and moral laws done away with.
The law of the new covenant is: "Love one another as I have loved you".

My own paraphrase from certain sections of: Understanding the Whole Bible by Dr. Jonathan Welton

listed · Nov 26, 2017

BobRyan said:
This should be good.

Certainly it included the TEN - as a basic reading of the book of Exodus will show.

But not the "Old Covenant" . Details matter.

Ex. 34:23-27
23 “Three times in the year all your men shall appear before the Lord, the Lord God of Israel. 24 For I will cast out the nations before you and enlarge your borders; neither will any man covet your land when you go up to appear before the Lord your God three times in the year.
25 “You shall not offer the blood of My sacrifice with leaven, nor shall the sacrifice of the Feast of the Passover be left until morning.
26 “The first of the firstfruits of your land you shall bring to the house of the Lord your God. You shall not boil a young goat in its mother’s milk.”
27 Then the Lord said to Moses, “Write these words, for according to the tenor of these words I have made a covenant with you and with Israel.”

The Old Covenant is a term unique to the NEW Testament and is never used in the Old Testament text. But it was an “agreement” made with the nation of Israel – not with an individual.

I wonder why. Could it be there wasn't a new covenant in the OT? Jeremiah's prophecy in 31 requires there to be an Old Covenant. I find your defense superficially worthless.

listed · Nov 26, 2017

BobRyan said:
By Contrast the NEW Covenant is the ONE Gospel of Gal 1;6-9 in both OT and NT

That Gospel is Jesus. That Gospel isn't the law as you insist.

listed · Nov 26, 2017

BobRyan said:
NEW Covenant:

Heb 8:

7For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion sought for a second.

8For finding fault with them, He says,
“BEHOLD, DAYS ARE COMING, SAYS THE LORD,
WHEN I WILL EFFECT A NEW COVENANT
WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND WITH THE HOUSE OF JUDAH;
...
10 “FOR THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL
AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD:
I WILL PUT MY LAWS INTO THEIR MINDS,
AND I WILL WRITE THEM ON THEIR HEARTS.
AND I WILL BE THEIR GOD,
AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE.

11 “AND THEY SHALL NOT TEACH EVERYONE HIS FELLOW CITIZEN,
AND EVERYONE HIS BROTHER, SAYING, ‘KNOW THE LORD,’
FOR ALL WILL KNOW ME,
FROM THE LEAST TO THE GREATEST OF THEM.

12 “FOR I WILL BE MERCIFUL TO THEIR INIQUITIES,
AND I WILL REMEMBER THEIR SINS NO MORE.”

These laws are "Written on the heart and mind" (Heb 8:10) according to the Gospel New Covenant first found in

Deut 6:6, Ps 37:31, Ezek 36:26-27, Deut 30:6, Jer 31:31-33...

Jer 31:
33 ""But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days,'' declares the LORD, "" I will put My law within them and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.
34 ""They will not teach again, each man his neighbor and each man his brother, saying, "Know the LORD,' for they will all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them,'' declares the LORD, ""for I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.''

Ps 37
Depart from evil and do good,
So you will abide forever.
28 For the Lord loves justice
And does not forsake His godly ones;
They are preserved forever,
But the descendants of the wicked will be cut off.
29 The righteous will inherit the land
And dwell in it forever.
30 The mouth of the righteous utters wisdom,
And his tongue speaks justice.
31 The law of his God is in his heart;
His steps do not slip.

Ezek 36
26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

Ps 119

9 How can a young man cleanse his way?
By taking heed according to Your word.
10 With my whole heart I have sought You;
Oh, let me not wander from Your commandments!
11 Your word I have hidden in my heart,
That I might not sin against You.

Deut 6:6
4 “Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one! 5 You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your strength.

6 “And these words which I command you today shall be in your heart. 7 You shall teach them diligently to your children, and shall talk of them when you sit in your house, when you walk by the way, when you lie down, and when you rise up. 8 You shall bind them as a sign on your hand, and they shall be as frontlets between your eyes. 9 You shall write them on the doorposts of your house and on your gates.

Ps 40:8
I delight to do Your will, O my God,
And Your law is within my heart.”

Is 51:7
“Listen to Me, you who know righteousness,
You people in whose heart is My law:
Do not fear the reproach of men,
Nor be afraid of their insults.

Deut 30
4 If any of thine be driven out unto the outmost parts of heaven, from thence will the Lord thy God gather thee, and from thence will he fetch thee:
5 And the Lord thy God will bring thee into the land which thy fathers possessed, and thou shalt possess it; and he will do thee good, and multiply thee above thy fathers.
6 And the Lord thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the Lord thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.

Prov 7
2 Keep my commandments, and live; and my law as the apple of thine eye.
3 Bind them upon thy fingers, write them upon the table of thine heart.

Heb 10:
15 And the Holy Spirit also testifies to us; for after saying,
16 "" THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THEM AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD: I WILL PUT MY LAWS UPON THEIR HEART, AND ON THEIR MIND I WILL WRITE THEM,'' He then says,
17 "" AND THEIR SINS AND THEIR LAWLESS DEEDS I WILL REMEMBER NO MORE.''

Here we have the New Covenant of the NT - comprised of OT promises.

And the OT promise - New Covenant Promise - to write God's Law on the heart and cause them to walk in His ways - meant a NEW HEART - as God's Word clearly shows.

Ezekiel 36
26 ""Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.
27 ""I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances.
28 ""You will live in the land that I gave to your forefathers; so you will be My people, and I will be your God.

Finding fault is a major purpose of the law. Romans 11:32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

listed · Nov 26, 2017

YouAreAwesome said:
1. Define covenant

In the ancient world a covenant is when two parties would write and sign a legally binding contract. Then over the course of the covenant agreement, the two parties would add a canon -- the history of how the two parties walked out their covenant including poetry, music, art and culture formed during the time -- a canon is a body of literature.

2. How many major covenants are recorded in the Bible?

There are five major covenants. Noah, Abraham, Moses, David and Jesus (Note the canon for the new covenant is the entire New Testament).

Noahic covenant (Genesis 1-11)
Abrahamic covenant (Genesis 12-50)
Law/Old-Covenant: Mosaic covenant Part 1 (Exodus 1-45; Numbers; Leviticus) -- this was a kinship covenant
Law/Old-Covenant: Mosaic covenant Part 2 (Deuteronomy) -- later it was changed to a vassal covenant
Davidic Covenant (1&2 Samuel; 1&2 Kings; 1&2 Chronicles; Song of Songs; Proverbs; Ecclesiastes; Some of the Psalms)
New Covenant: Jesus' covenant (The entire New Testament)

3. What is meant by "the Old Covenant"?

Usually we use the language "Old Covenant" to refer to the Mosaic Covenant. The Mosaic Covenant was unlike all other covenants. It was not what God intended for the Israelite's. God intended a grant covenant where every person would be a priest and a king, a holy nation, where everyone has direct access to God (see Exodus 19:3-6). The people accepted. Then in verses 9-13 God gave Moses instructions for the covenant ceremony. In verses 16-17 God comes down to meet the people. But when the people heard God speaking they got scared (read Deuteronomy 5 as it describes this interaction in more depth). Because of their slave-minded fear, they rejected direct relationship with God and instead asked for rules to follow (see Exodus 19:20-25). The covenant then shifted from the grant covenant previously offered, to a kinship covenant. The Old Covenant became a yoke around their necks (Acts of the Apostles 15:10).

4. What is meant by "the New Covenant"?

Hebrews 8:6 says

But now Jesus, our High Priest, has been given a ministry that is far superior to the old priesthood, for he is the one who mediates for us a far better covenant with God, based on better promises.

The following explains the New Covenant.

Jesus' birth fulfilled the Abrahamic Covenant.

The death of Jesus created the New Covenant.

The New Covenant is between Father and Son.

Jesus' ascension and enthronement in heaven fulfill the Davidic kingdom promises.

The destruction in AD 70 removed the Old Covenant permanently and fulfilled Hebrews 8:13.

Between the cross and AD 70 existed a forty-year covenant transition for the Church.

During the transition period, the Old Covenant and the New Covenant co-existed.

The end of the age and the last days were first century references to the last days of the Old Covenant and the end of the Old Covenant age.

No application of the Mosaic kinship/vassal covenants remains; the feasts, Sabbaths, civil laws, ceremonial laws, and moral laws done away with.

The law of the new covenant is: "Love one another as I have loved you".

My own paraphrase from certain sections of: Understanding the Whole Bible by Dr. Jonathan Welton

Excellent post. The 40 years part is interesting. I think it has to do with the unbelieving generation the same as the generation that came out of Egypt died.

1stcenturylady · Nov 26, 2017

YouAreAwesome said:
1. Define covenant

In the ancient world a covenant is when two parties would write and sign a legally binding contract. Then over the course of the covenant agreement, the two parties would add a canon -- the history of how the two parties walked out their covenant including poetry, music, art and culture formed during the time -- a canon is a body of literature.

2. How many major covenants are recorded in the Bible?

There are five major covenants. Noah, Abraham, Moses, David and Jesus (Note the canon for the new covenant is the entire New Testament).

Noahic covenant (Genesis 1-11)
Abrahamic covenant (Genesis 12-50)
Law/Old-Covenant: Mosaic covenant Part 1 (Exodus 1-45; Numbers; Leviticus) -- this was a kinship covenant
Law/Old-Covenant: Mosaic covenant Part 2 (Deuteronomy) -- later it was changed to a vassal covenant
Davidic Covenant (1&2 Samuel; 1&2 Kings; 1&2 Chronicles; Song of Songs; Proverbs; Ecclesiastes; Some of the Psalms)
New Covenant: Jesus' covenant (The entire New Testament)

3. What is meant by "the Old Covenant"?

Usually we use the language "Old Covenant" to refer to the Mosaic Covenant. The Mosaic Covenant was unlike all other covenants. It was not what God intended for the Israelite's. God intended a grant covenant where every person would be a priest and a king, a holy nation, where everyone has direct access to God (see Exodus 19:3-6). The people accepted. Then in verses 9-13 God gave Moses instructions for the covenant ceremony. In verses 16-17 God comes down to meet the people. But when the people heard God speaking they got scared (read Deuteronomy 5 as it describes this interaction in more depth). Because of their slave-minded fear, they rejected direct relationship with God and instead asked for rules to follow (see Exodus 19:20-25). The covenant then shifted from the grant covenant previously offered, to a kinship covenant. The Old Covenant became a yoke around their necks (Acts of the Apostles 15:10).

4. What is meant by "the New Covenant"?

Hebrews 8:6 says

But now Jesus, our High Priest, has been given a ministry that is far superior to the old priesthood, for he is the one who mediates for us a far better covenant with God, based on better promises.

The following explains the New Covenant.

Jesus' birth fulfilled the Abrahamic Covenant.

The death of Jesus created the New Covenant.

The New Covenant is between Father and Son.

Jesus' ascension and enthronement in heaven fulfill the Davidic kingdom promises.

The destruction in AD 70 removed the Old Covenant permanently and fulfilled Hebrews 8:13.

Between the cross and AD 70 existed a forty-year covenant transition for the Church.

During the transition period, the Old Covenant and the New Covenant co-existed.

The end of the age and the last days were first century references to the last days of the Old Covenant and the end of the Old Covenant age.

No application of the Mosaic kinship/vassal covenants remains; the feasts, Sabbaths, civil laws, ceremonial laws, and moral laws done away with.

The law of the new covenant is: "Love one another as I have loved you".

My own paraphrase from certain sections of: Understanding the Whole Bible by Dr. Jonathan Welton

You left off the most important aspect of the New Covenant - Christ's gift of the filling of the Holy Spirit. Without the Holy Spirit no man can love as commanded, and no man can be dead to sin as a new creature with the mind of Christ.

YouAreAwesome · Nov 26, 2017

1stcenturylady said:
You left off the most important aspect of the New Covenant - Christ's gift of the filling of the Holy Spirit.

Definitely, good point. Dr Welton writes on his blog:

In the new covenant we are a new creation, we are not guided by a list of rules but by the nature of Christ living within us and the law of love. Paul sometimes referred to this lifestyle as living by the Spirit:

Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other (Gal. 5:25–26).

Instead of living according to a list of rules, we live by walking in step with the Spirit. This is why,

If you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law (Gal. 5:18).

When we are led by the Spirit, we are following the law of Christ, which is summed up in what Peter referred to as “the sacred command” (2 Pet. 2:21)— the command to love as Christ loves. This is the core of the new covenant, which is the covenant of life and forgiveness, not death and judgment.

YouAreAwesome · Nov 26, 2017

Another important point.

Jesus summarised the Old Covenant with two commandments:

"You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind." This is the great and foremost commandment. The second is like it, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself." On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets (Matthew 22:37–40).

This summary is not to be applied to the New Covenant. It is not the same as the New Covenant law. When Jesus summarised the Old Covenant He was not explaining the New. The New Covenant is different, it is, new. Jesus said:

A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another (John 13:34).

Make note of the difference between the Old Covenant and the New Covenant. Under the Old we were to love each other as ourselves. Under the New we are to love each other as God loves us. Different covenant. Different Law. Better covenant. Better Law.

1stcenturylady · Nov 26, 2017

YouAreAwesome said:
Definitely, good point. Dr Welton writes on his blog:

In the new covenant we are a new creation, we are not guided by a list of rules but by the nature of Christ living within us and the law of love. Paul sometimes referred to this lifestyle as living by the Spirit:

Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other (Gal. 5:25–26).

Instead of living according to a list of rules, we live by walking in step with the Spirit. This is why,

If you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law (Gal. 5:18).

When we are led by the Spirit, we are following the law of Christ, which is summed up in what Peter referred to as “the sacred command” (2 Pet. 2:21)— the command to love as Christ loves. This is the core of the new covenant, which is the covenant of life and forgiveness, not death and judgment.

Yes, that is the most important part.

Doug Melven · Nov 26, 2017

YouAreAwesome said:
Another important point.

Jesus summarised the Old Covenant with two commandments:

"You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind." This is the great and foremost commandment. The second is like it, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself." On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets (Matthew 22:37–40).

This summary is not to be applied to the New Covenant. It is not the same as the New Covenant law. When Jesus summarised the Old Covenant He was not explaining the New. The New Covenant is different, it is, new. Jesus said:

A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another (John 13:34).

Make note of the difference between the Old Covenant and the New Covenant. Under the Old we were to love each other as ourselves. Under the New we are to love each other as God loves us. Different covenant. Different Law. Better covenant. Better Law.

Old Covenant just a demand to love with no power given to do so.
New Covenant, We love Him because He first loved us.
Because He showed us such great love we can now love others as He loved us.

HARK! · Nov 26, 2017

Doug Melven said:
Old Covenant just a demand to love with no power given to do so.
New Covenant, We love Him because He first loved us.
Because He showed us such great love we can now love others as He loved us.

Yahweh loved his children from the beginning.

HARK! · Nov 26, 2017

YouAreAwesome said:
Another important point.

Jesus summarised the Old Covenant with two commandments:

"You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind." This is the great and foremost commandment. The second is like it, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself." On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets (Matthew 22:37–40).
This summary is not to be applied to the New Covenant. It is not the same as the New Covenant law. When Jesus summarised the Old Covenant He was not explaining the New. The New Covenant is different, it is, new. Jesus said:

A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another (John 13:34).
Make note of the difference between the Old Covenant and the New Covenant. Under the Old we were to love each other as ourselves. Under the New we are to love each other as God loves us. Different covenant. Different Law. Better covenant. Better Law.

Nowhere does Yahshua say that the law was abolished with this new addition. Yahweh has given us progressive revelation from the beginning.

(CLV) 1Jn 2:7
Beloved, I am not writing a new precept to you, but an old precept, which you had from the beginning. The old precept is the word which you hear.

1stcenturylady · Nov 27, 2017

Doug Melven said:
Old Covenant just a demand to love with no power given to do so.
New Covenant, We love Him because He first loved us.
Because He showed us such great love we can now love others as He loved us.

No, Jesus gave us His own Spirit to dwell in us. He is love.

The Holy Spirit is the reason why we can love as He did. Without the indwelling Holy Spirit, we don't even belong to Christ. And it is also important to realize that without our repentance from sin, we won't be given the gift of the Holy Spirit. Acts 2:38; Romans 8:9

YouAreAwesome · Nov 27, 2017

HARK! said:
Nowhere does Yahshua say that the law was abolished with this new addition. Yahweh has given us progressive revelation from the beginning.

(CLV) 1Jn 2:7
Beloved, I am not writing a new precept to you, but an old precept, which you had from the beginning. The old precept is the word which you hear.

What you present is generally labelled "Covenant Theology". Instead of dividing history into dispensations, you see history as a one continuous line, believing God interacted with humankind in the same manner all throughout history and that each covenant is built on top of the previous covenant. Thus you believe the New Covenant is a renewal or an upgrade to the already existing covenant. I would assume you believe the Old Testament Law was divided into three parts (ceremonial, civil, moral). You then argue moral laws apply but ceremonial and civil laws do not apply. Is this correct? I may have jumped the gun a little when you used the term "progressive revelation" and "new addition".

Because the Bible does not actually indicate a division of the Law into three parts (it doesn't even show up in church history until the 13th century!), this can lead to some unconventional interpretations. The question is always "What do we keep? And what do we remove?" Because the Bible does not actually contain any dividing lines within the Law, these lines need to be determined, and where they should be drawn is debatable. Can we get tatoos? Can we eat bacon?

The key biblical passage that refutes Covenant Theology is Hebrews 8:7-10 where the author clearly referred to the New Covenant:

7 For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, no place would have been sought for another.
8 But God found fault with the people and said: “The days are coming, declares the Lord when I will make a new covenant with the people of Israel and with the people of Judah.
9 It will not be like the covenant I made with their ancestors when I took them by the hand to lead them out of Egypt, because they did not remain faithful to my covenant, and I turned away from them, declares the Lord.
10 This is the covenant I will establish with the people of Israel after that time, declares the Lord. I will put my laws in their minds and write them on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people.

Here God clearly said the New Covenant would be nothing like the covenant He had made with their ancestors. In other words, He was not renewing the Old Covenant but creating something totally different.

listed · Nov 27, 2017

HARK! said:
Yahweh loved his children from the beginning.

Yahweh loved man from creation. Our enemy is extremely jealous and hates Yahweh partially because of this.

Old Covenant defined - vs - NEW Covenant

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